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NATIONAL ASSEMBLY HANSARD - 13 MAY 2009 VOL. 35 NO. 30

PARLIAMENT OF ZIMBABWE

Wednesday, 13th May, 2009.

The House of Assembly met at a Quarter-past Two O'clock p.m.

PRAYERS

(THE DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair)

ANNOUNCEMENT BY THE DEPUTY SPEAKER

APPOINTMENT TO THE SELECT COMMITTEE

ON THE NEW CONSTITUTION

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Pursuant to the provisions of the Global Political Agreement (GPA) and approval by the Standing Rules and Orders Committee on the Select Committee on the new Constitution of Zimbabwe.

The following hon. members were on the 12th April 2009, appointed to serve on the Select Committee:

Hon. Flora Buka

Hon. Senator Chief Fortunate Charumbira

Hon. Amos Chibaya

Hon. Walter Chidhakwa

Hon. Chindori Chininga

Hon. Senator David Coltart

Hon. Senator Gladys Gombani Dube

Hon. Joram Gumbo

Hon Ian Kay

Hon. Martin Khumalo

Hon. Senator Believe Gaule

Hon. Cephas Makuyana

Hon. Paul Mangwana

Hon. Senator Rorana Muchihwa

Hon. Editor Matamisa

Hon Senator Tambudzani Mohadi

Hon. Edward Tshotsho Mkhosi

Hon. Olivia Muchena

Hon. Senator Monica Mutsvangwa

Hon. Douglas Mwonzora

Hon. Senator Jabulani Ndlovu

Hon. Brian Tshuma

Hon. Senator Thokozile Mathuthu

Hon. Gift Chimanikire

Hon. Jessie Majome

ZANU PF: 9

MDC-T: 9

MDC-M: 3

CHIEFS: 1

Appointed by Presiding Officers: 3

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE

MR KANZAMA: I wanted to direct my question to the Minister of Health, but in his absence, I will pose my question to the Deputy Prime Minister. Hon. Deputy Prime Minister, every weekend I go into various wards in my constituency. Last week I happened to be in one area in my constituency. I visited the house where I met an old man who is around 60 -70 years then -[HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections] - The story will lead to the question.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order hon. Member, you can only pose your question.

MR KANZAMA: The question Hon. Deputy Prime Minister, the old man I am talking about went to the hospital instead of being treated and paying the fees in monetary terms, was asked to pay goats. I do not know whether it is the Government policy that hospitals are now demanding goats for patients to be treated.

THE DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER (PROF. A. MUTAMBARA): Madam Speaker, we have just launched a 100 day plan. In that plan there are details on how we are going to resolve matters around health care system in our country. I will give a general response to the hon. member. In addition to the plan, there are also plans to capacitate our hospitals, doctors and nurses through two programmes and one of them we call humanitarian plan. In the humanitarian plan, we are saying when we get humanitarian aid, let us include the salaries of doctors and nurses and the facilitation of our hospital.

Secondly, we are also pushing what we call a center of aid where we are saying doctors and education are major areas of need in our country. So the situation is such that hon. member, it is going to be resolved inclusively in the 100 day plan and secondly, we still need funding through the humanitarian funding and humanitarian aid as a way and means of getting resources to make sure that health care is a right in our country and is affordable.

MR. CHEBUNDO: My question is directed to the Core - Minister of Home Affairs, Hon. Mutsekwa. Is it now his Ministry's policy to arrest journalists who would have covered court proceedings that highlight on matters of public information that would have been presented in the courts.

THE CO-MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS (MR. MUTSEKWA): Thank you Madam Speaker. I also wish to thank Hon. Chebundo for raising this question. Firstly, I want to assume that Hon. Chebundo's question came from the arrest that was made to journalists from the Zimbabwe Independent. If that is correct, no it is not my Ministry's policy to arrest journalists who are going about their normal business. This has also given me an opportunity to explain the situation to this House and indeed the nation. You might probably be aware, Madam Speaker, that the Commissioner General of the police who is under my Ministry has made a public statement that he also disapproves the arrest of journalists who are going on with their normal duties.

However, in this particular incident, I want the nation to know that my Ministry was not involved in giving instructions to arrest in this particular case. I was also disgusted that these journalists have been arrested. I then went further to inquire from the Commissioner General of the police what exactly has transpired. The story I got from the Commissioner General was that this particular instruction came through the Ministry of Justice and particularly sent by the Attorney General. I had an occasion to discuss this issue with the Attorney General yesterday who admitted to have given the instruction to the Police to incarcerate the journalist in question. I have since asked the Commissioner General to reduce this to writing so I can take it up with my colleague in the Ministry of Justice. I want to reiterate that it is not my ministry's policy and I am also completely disgusted that this took place.

MR MADZIMURE: Before the June 27 runoff, several people were murdered and a lot of violence took place. Is it now Government policy to selectively arrest people considering that Hon. Mlambo from Chipinge was the only person arrested and non other arrested.

THE CO-MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS (MR MUTSEKWA): I would like to thank Hon. Madzimure for that question which to me is pertinent. However, I would like to inform the hon. member that it is not Government policy to selectively arrest or bring before trial Zimbabweans who would have committed various crimes. I am aware of the particular incident that the hon. member refers to. You will draw comfort from the fact that this issue is being discussed at the highest level.

MR GONESE: I would like to find out why the report of the Zimbabwe Electoral Commission in the March election has still not been tabled in Parliament. In terms of Section 12 of the Act it says a report should be presented to the Minister, the Speaker and the President as soon as possible. I believe that a period of 14 months cannot be as soon as possible.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND LEGAL AFFAIRS (MR. CHINAMASA): A report has been tabled before Parliament. I have written and given sufficient copies not to all MPs but certainly for purposes of complying with the Zimbabwe Electoral Commission Act (ZEC) it has been tabled. For clarification you have to ask the Clerk of Parliament.

MR. BHASIKITI: Can you not consider the scraping of duty on most commodities and even the reduction of duty to about 10% realizing that most of our people are enjoying going into South Africa without visas. They suffer the disadvantage of having their goods confiscated while we are still in this trying period.

THE DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER (PROF. A. MUTAMBARA): That is a very technical and specific question which will best be addressed by the Minister of Finance. However, as a Government, we are pursuing progressive taxation and all types of tariffs to make sure that we still match economic activities in our country. This is a new Government and it intends to create conditions in Zimbabwe where companies are given an opportunity to flourish. We are redefining the role of Government to be an enabler and a success factor. The doers are the private sector and civil society in pursuit of that function of creating an enabling environment to address the concerns of the hon. member.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: May hon. members with the following vehicles - registration numbers AAP2281 and AAP0650 remove their cars that are blocking the way.

MR. ZIYAMBI: My question is on the logic between industry and agriculture. Zimbabwe is an agricultural based industry, 70% of our agricultural inputs make the industry but the sourcing of funds is only targeted at industries and not the agricultural input sector.

THE DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER (PROF. A. MUTAMBARA): This Government understands the importance of agriculture and the role of industry in this country. In the long run we are saying Government should not be funding agriculture. It should be self funding and hence it is our desire to pursue a direction where we stimulate the access of capital and financing of agriculture. We can not baby-sit farmers. We must make sure that we have collateral value and security of land tenure in this country so that A1 and A2 Farmers can go to the bank and borrow against land and infrastructure on their farms so that in the long run the future of this country depends on self financing agriculture and private money driving agriculture. We are going to pursue a double prompt approach where we find a credit line for industry, mining, manufacturing and at the same time finding a credit line for agriculture.

MR. MUNGOFA: Zimbabwe is currently mining reasonable quantities of minerals like diamonds and there are three mining companies which are in operation. Are you accounting for all the production that is coming out of the mines. I understand the diamonds are being exported into Congo direct from the mine and being sorted in overseas countries. When are we going to set up a sorting house which can determine the value of minerals being sent out.

THE MINISTER OF MINES (MR. MPOFU): It is true that the country currently has three diamond mining houses whose operations are in accordance with Kimberley Processing Scheme which regulate the operations of diamonds around the world. The movement of those diamonds are guided by the operations of that institution called the Kimberley Processing Scheme. For accountability, the diamonds are accounted for in accordance with the Kimberley Processing Scheme. So it is being done, but on the addition of value of those minerals - that is another area that we need to be assisted with and Government is taking measures to deal with that. These measures are to do with the registration of companies that have applied for value addition of these minerals and we encourage those who want to have value to do so and apply. Those who want to go into casting and polishing are welcome because we need these processes to be done by our own business people for the benefit of the country.

MR. DZINGIRAYI: My question is directed to the Minister of Higher and Tertiary Education as to when the University is going to open and also the issue regarding the fee structure because we hear a lot of stories everyday?

THE MINISTER OF HIGHER AND TERTIARY EDUCATION (MR. MUDENGE): Thank you Madam Speaker, I want to thank the hon. Member for the question which the public wants to hear the Minister responding to. It is true that the University of Zimbabwe and the other nine state univၥrsities have opened. The other eigѨt opened and they are operational. The problem at UZ is the question of running water. ZINWA is not able Ŵo provide wa聴er t䁯 UZ. Harare City Council is not able to provide water to UZ& The boreholes which w% dugࠠat thɥ!UZ, 6 of tࡨem are dry andР1 of䀠them are fullࠠof water bup that siter is mixed with sewerage, it is cont䁡minated water aѮt it cannot be ɵsed for drɩnking.

To open ɴhe Unhversi|{ uŮder such circumstances is actually irresponsible and it would lead to cholera outbreak or some other epidemic diseases. We have been in contact with sister ministries of finance to get resources to dig additional boreholes. Unfortunately, the resources have been hard to come by. However, I have got good news for the House. We approached UNICEF and it has been kind enough, they are now going to drill 6 boreholes at the University of Zimbabwe as I speak now. We have got times and strategic places so that we can have running water at the University of Zimbabwe and then we can unblock these sewerage systems which are now blocking halls of residence. This way, I look forward in the next few weeks as soon as the boreholes are completed and the boreholes are working, the UZ can open within 2-3 weeks.

MR. DZINGIRAYI: The medical school has not opened and I got a phone call from my son saying they wanted US$100 registration fee and a top up of US$274, the requirements are many but the money added up to US$674 before schools open. So it is not a question of water alone but it is a question of how you are restructuring your fees at the university. US$674 is unaffordable, it is too high and yet we are surviving on a US$100 salary.

DR. MUDENGE: Of course that was not a supplementary question but it is a new question. Fees for the university has been established by ordinance. Anybody who goes beyond the fees as outlined is illegal. US$300 school fees for Arts and Social Sciences. US$350 for Sciences and US$400 for Medicine. That is the law and anybody who goes beyond that in the name of fees is acting illegally and I would want the details of such information to come to my office.

MR. MAVIMA: My question is directed to the Leader of the House which is in relation to the demands by ZIMRA Officials on flea market vendors that they are taking goods from these vendors upon failure to pay revenue that is required. Is there no other mechanism in which ZIMRA can collect revenue instead of seizing these vendors' goods which are bringing the income?

THE DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER (PROF. A. MUTAMBARA): Madam Speaker, this country, this nation seeks to create a society that is democratic, peaceful and prosperous and in pursuit to that vision, we will try to use many methods of executing our duties as a government. To that end, we will investigate the concerns and issues raised by the hon. member once but we must realise that we need to improve our tax collection so that we can fund the activities of this government. We cannot depend on aid and humanitarian assistance, we must depend on national growth and other activities and part of that would be revenue collection and the collection of our tax. However, in pursuit of that objective, we must respect Zimbabwe and our business. As I have said earlier on, our task as government is creating an enabling environment in the country for business to flourish and for Zimbabwe to flourish.

We have no skills and technology required to run businesses. We have no real capital that is required to run businesses. That is the domain for the private sector and individuals hence it is our task to ensure that Zimbabweans are pursuing their economic activities with minimum interference. We want to remove the draconian methods on behalf of institutions like ZIMRA and other government institutions. However, we will investigate and see whether there is any merit with the issue raised by the member.

MR. BHEBHE: My question is directed to the Minister of Youth Development, Indigenisation and Empowerment.

Is it government policy to employ ghost workers? I am talking about the recently identified youths that have been employed by government and are being paid the allowances that are paid to current civil servants, but some of them have no requisite qualifications. They do not have any certificate even from primary level.

THE MINISTER OF YOUTH DEVELOPMENT, INDIGENISATION AND EMPOWERMENT (MR. KASUKUWERE): Obviously there is no ghost government which can employ ghost workers. Anybody who is employed by government works for the government.

On the second part of this question, the fact that he knows there are some people without O' Levels - is important if he can bring forward the names of those people. Currently our ministry is busy auditing all the officers in our ministry to see who does not qualify to be in the ministry. So I would like to look at those officers the hon. member has said do not have qualifications and our ministry will deal with those matters accordingly.

MR. SIBANDA: My question is directed to the Leader of the House. Is he aware that at ZBC, both TV and radio services are selective in covering MPs and also that there is distortion of interpretation of the Prime Minister. In English it is clear but in Shona they refer to him as Mutungamiri weMakurukota. So I want to find out whether they have changed that status.

THE DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER (PROF. MUTAMBARA): It is a travesty of justice in this country that we have one TV channel and one daily newspaper when Kenya has four or five TV stations, and Malawi has four or five TV stations and twenty daily papers. We need to reform the media in the country. It is the agenda of this government to make sure we open up air waves with four or five TV channels so that if there is one channel which is misbehaving, the other one will tell the truth and people will abandon this one and it will go bankrupt.

So we are saying as a government we are going to open up the media to attract private players so that the competition alone, forget regulating the law, by competition alone we are going to force journalists and media practitioners to do the right things. That is the first port of call, to ensure that with competition we would drive good behavior.

Secondly, we want to transform the state TV and state media into a proper public broadcaster. It is the state in its new definition. We are saying in Zimbabwe there are three political parties in power which means the state operator must reflect the inclusiveness, the Prime Minister, the President and yours truly must be adequately covered without fear or favour. That we leave to the Minister of Information to ensure that we have a proper public broadcaster and not a partisan broadcaster but the long term solution is to ensure that we open up and have competition which would drive good behaviour.

MR. MADZIMURE: The hon. member's question was very clear. Is it an instruction from government or it is misbehaviour by the ZBC staff to say when they refer to the Prime Minister, in Shona they say Mutungamiri weMakurukota which is a deliberate distortion of Mutungamiri weHurumende. It is very clear in Shona when you say Mutungamiri weMakurukota you are saying the leader of the ministers yet when you are saying Mutungamiri weHurumende you are saying the head of government.

PROF. A. MUTAMBARA: There are two different issues here. There is the technical question of what is the proper diction to use to describe the Prime Minister in Shona or Ndebele. That can be answered by the two negotiators - Chinamasa and Welshman Ncube. In the GPA what does it say? It is a very technical and very easy question. The lawyers can tell us. The functions of the Prime Minister are very clear in the GPA.

So let us not waste too much time on that one and leave it to the lawyers. That is a very technical and easy problem because it can be answered legally in Shona and Ndebele.

The second one which is the political question is that if there is any mischief or misdemeanours and corrupt activities at ZBC whose task is it to correct that? What we need to do is simply to investigate the existence or lack of such activities and the minister and his deputy can be tasked by this government to correct that behaviour about a national broadcaster and non-partisanship. If there is evidence of a partisan behaviour we will correct it. What we need is evidence and information and this government will ensure we correct that.

So let us separate this issue to the technical one and one of mischief.

MR. M. DUBE: A question is directed to the Minister of Water Resources Development and Management. I have observed that the management of water affairs has been transferred from ZINWA to the local councils. So I want to know whether there are any plans to transfer those water management affairs in the growth points at a local level because you will find a situation whereby like in my own constituency in Tsholotsho the stores are in Bulawayo, 100km away and some of the expertise to prepare boreholes, the cost of transporting them just to come and repair a small thing so I want to know whether there are any means of changing the system right down to the last level.

THE MINISTER OF WATER RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT AND MANAGEMENT (MR S. NKOMO): Madam Speaker, the transfer from ZINWA to Urban Councils has been actually completed and there are other areas where we are still involved because we want to hand over to them a manageable water delivery system.

There are other town councils that have no capacity to manage their own water. It is in those town councils where ZINWA is still managing the delivery of water. Tsholotsho is not even a town council, it is a rural council. It might be a little difficult to manage its own water delivery and management. I do understand that where there are small repairs to be done you have to wait for somebody from Bulawayo. That is what we are working on, trying to make sure that with the water division of DDF we can try and address those in the local areas but otherwise the management in the urban councils is complete but we are still involved because we want to transfer to them, a robust management of that water. In the rural councils, we will be involved until such a time when a rural council is able to manage water delivery.

MR. NAVAYA: My question is directed to the Leader of the House. The Zim dollar is no longer in circulation, why are you still paying us in Zim dollar?

THE DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER (PROF. MUTAMBARA): Madam Speaker, that is a very technical question which I have to leave for the Minister of Finance to address full but I will attempt to give a context to the debate. This discussion or debate around the Zim dollar is work- in progress - it does not make sense for anyone to say the Zim dollar is dead when we are paying people in Zim dollar. It does not make sense to say the Zim dollar is dead because pensioners are being paid in Zim dollars. So, it is a nonsensical and unacceptable concept to even say the Zim dollar is dead or dead for a year. We must make sure we honour the amounts in the banks which is in Zim dollars, we honour the amount being paid to people in Zim dollars. It is work-in progress and we will be able to put finality to discussions in a manner which is satisfactory to all Zimbabweans. As I said earlier, the question will be answered by the Minister of Finance - [MR. MATUTU: But you have insulted him already]-

MR. MATSHALAGA: My question is directed to the Leader of the House. When the Ministers of Finance, both Hon. Chinamasa and Hon. Biti introduced the multiple currency system, the effect was not to do away with the Zim dollar but to give a freeze in the Zim dollar. I want the Hon. Deputy Prime Minister to explain whether there was an analysis on the impact of that decision. Was the government aware of the suffering that the Zim dollar has caused.

THE DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER (PROF. A. MUTAMBARA): Madam Speaker, when we say work-in progress - that speaks volumes about the nature of the problem. When we say it is work-in progress - we mean we are in discussion over the matter. There is no closure and there is no finality. We are cognisant of the extend of the suffering of our people. So, what we commit to this House, what we commit to the people of Zimbabwe is that we are going to move speedily on the issue around the Zim dollar.

MR. SITHOLE: My question is director to the Minister of Agriculture, Mechanisation and Irrigation Development. When is the GMB ready to accept this year's delivery? I am referring to this year's harvest. Is there any mechanism that has been put in place to pay the farmers in time?

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, MECHANISATION AND IRRIGATION DEVELOPMENT (DR. MADE): The GMB is ready to receive grains and other commodities that are traded in the agriculture sector but the GMB is now also a buyer among buyers so that means farmers have that choice to be looking at the entirety of the market in terms of their marketing of grains.

In terms of the payment that will be done by the GMB, government is in the process of mobilising resources for GMB to be able to pay farmers timeoulsy. The GMB is not only looking at government resources, government in actual terms is facilitating resources and the financiers to work with the GMB in the form of granting the necessary grants that the banking sector require.

*MR. RARADZA: (Speech not recorded due to technical fault).

 

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order, as the Minister is not in the House can you redirect your question.

MR. RARADZA: I will ask the Leader of the House.

THE DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER (PROF. A. MUTAMBARA): Again, details will come from the Minister. We are setting a shift to move away from this backward thing. We are saying the government does not have enough money and the City Council does not have enough money. We are saying let us attract private investors into water, roads and electricity. Going forward is a long term solution, is to say can we attract private players so that we can provide clean and adequate water. Sovereignty is not defined by ownership, it is defined by delivery of services and services should be delivered by the government because we as government have no money, no technology and the human capacity to deliver water, roads and electricity. So the long term solution which I am speaking of is to say we are working on a sustainable answer to the water situation in our country through private ownership but which in the short time will be addressed by the Minister.

MRS. CHIKAVA: My question is directed to the Leader of the House. I understood him very well when he explained the long term policy about agriculture but is he aware that the winter season is almost at the close. When the GMB is turning away the farmers, that means in the short time he will be importing wheat instead of taking that which was produced by Zimbabweans and feed the nation. I thank you.

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, MECHANISATION AND IRRIGATION DEVELOPMENT (DR. MADE): MadamSpeaker, she made reference to the Leader of the House when she was asking the question and I know she was asking in the context of the long term vision in terms of agriculture but I can respond to the question.

PROF. A. MUTAMBARA: We are saying whatever we do in this government, in this country we must have a direct approach to the current national issues according to the short term and long term policies. That is why I spoke about the long term policy and the long term policy belongs to the self finance of agriculture. In the short term, to make sure we feed tomorrow, the government has to make sure our winter crop is set. These activities of the freshly called farm invasions, they will damage -[HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections]-

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order hon. members!

PROF. A. MUTAMBARA: Madam Speaker, as Deputy Prime Minister of the State of Zimbabwe, part of my duty is to be honest. We have this fresh problem of farm invasions and it does not help our country and agriculture. We have enough farms now that we need for agriculture. The answer is not new farms but what we need is productivity, productivity. We need winter wheat inputs in the short run. Yes, the state must play a role but more importantly, we must help ourselves by behaving well on these farms.

MR. GONESE: My question is directed to the Minister of Justice and Legal Affairs Mr. Chinamasa. Is there any rationale in keeping the law in our statute. I know once upon a time adultery used to be a crime and I believe in 1915 it was decriminalized. In the same vein the criminal defamation has no plea and anyone who feels aggravated should resort to the remedy of damages.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND LEGAL AFFAIRS (MR . CHINAMASA): I thank the hon. member for asking a policy issue but I do not make policies. The Inclusive Government is going to make policies. Before I answer you I need to know who you are targeting to criminally defame. I think this is a matter that can be debated as we know the issues which come and are prosecuted as criminal defamation are those which are very serious, targeting hon. ministers or people who have positions in government. Basically, the defamation is going to rebuke and undermine the whole focus of government. Generally that is the criteria used to determine whether a person should be prosecuted under criminal defamation or not. Anyway, it is an issue that can be debated. I have an open mind on the subject and I hope what is motivating the hon. minister is not to create an environment in which he can defame others of impurity.

Questions Without Notice were interrupted by the THE DEPUTY SPEAKER , in terms of Standing Order Number 33.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS WITH NOTICE

CONSTRUCTION OF CHILOYA BRIDGE

1. MR BALOYI asked the Minister of Transport and Infrastructural Development to inform the House whether or not the ministry has made provision for the construction of the Chiloya bridge over the Chilundi river which is critical for commuting between Chiredzi South and the rest of the country and is also critical for the implementation of the GLTP Project.

THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRANSPORT AND INFRASTRUCTURAL DEVELOPMENT (MR MUDZINGWA): Madam Speaker the bridge the Hon member is talking about had been budgeted for by the ministry. This new bridge was chosen by the local people as a priority compared to the other Runde bridge further down stream, which was destroyed by Cyclone Eline.

A Causeway has been built at Chilonga as a temporary measure before the actual bridge has been built. Unfortunately, it has not been possible to have this new bridge placed on the PSIP this year. We will continue to maintain the causeway at Chilonga until funds are available to build a bridge there.

TARRING OF BINYA ROAD

MR CHIMBETETE asked the Minister of Transport and Infrastructural Development to inform the House what the ministry's plans are regarding the tarring of Binya road in Nyanga South.

Madam Speaker, the question on the Order Paper has been wrongly worded, I will need to make some corrections to it.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order, order please go ahead.

MR CHIMBETETE: I wanted the Minister to confirm to the House whether the Binya road has been tarred or not. If it is tarred, I want him to assure this House that it is tarred whereas I know that it is not tarred.

THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRANSPORT AND INFRASTRUCTURAL DEVELOPMENT (MR. MUDZINGWA): Thank you Madam Speaker, since the question has been altered really, it needs research before I can answer.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Chimbetete, you can re-write your question the way you would like it to appear on the Order Paper.

CONSTRUCTION OF ROADS IN RURAL AREAS

3. MR DUMBU asked the Minister of Transport and Infrastructural Development: (i) what measures the Ministry has put in place to address the crisis of impassable roads which is impeding efficient transfer and distribution of farm produce to market places; and (ii) what plans are underway for construction of roads in rural areas where people have to walk long distances of up to 30km to growth points for social services.

THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRANSPORT AND INFRASTRUCTURAL DEVELOPMENT (MR. MUDZINGWA): Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. member for asking that question. My ministry is at present in the grip of a shortage of funds. The whole road network is in need of urgent repair. Roads in the urban councils, rural district councils and the primary road network and the Regional Trunk Road Network are all in dire distress.

After the workshop, which produced STERP, my ministry has continued to address the problem related to roads. I instructed ZINARA to give the Department of Roads US$700 000. The Regional Trunk Road Network, like the Beitbridge - Harare - Chirundu, the Plumtree - Gweru - Harare, the Beitbridge - Bulawayo - Victoria Falls roads have all been repaired including many other primary roads.

I also instructed ZINARA to avail US$100 000 to DDF to buy fuel to grade roads in the rural district councils and this is being done. I am sure Madam Speaker that many areas have been covered by now.

Madam Speaker, US$1 million from ZINARA has been disbursed to the rural district councils for the maintenance of roads. This should ensure that most of the major roads within the rural district councils are maintained and produce from the rural areas should reach the markets. However, there is no denying that much more needs to be done subject, of course, to more funds being availed to my ministry for that purpose. Financial resources are the key to attending to roads nationwide.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order, order. There is a Nissan Hard Body registration number 771-389Q, it is said to be blocking the way outside. Could the hon. member go and move it away.

POLICY ON HIV/AIDS PEOPLE

6. HON MADAMOMBE asked the Minister of Health and Child Welfare to inform the House what the Government policy is on people living with HIV/AIDS and why the clinics are charging US$5 fees for consultation and collection of ARV drugs which in most cases are donated by different international organisations.

THE MINISTER OF HEALTH AND CHILD WELFARE (MR MADZORERA): Thank you Madam Speaker, unfortunately the question was not given to me. I do not have a written response, but the question seeks to know the government policy on people living with HIV/AIDS and why the clinics are charging US$5 fees for consultation and collection of anti- retro-viral drugs which in most cases are donated by different international organisations. When talking about government policy on people living with HIV/AIDS, there are a number of issues involved. It is really 101 things - you can look at government policy on employment of people living with HIV/AIDS - you can talk about the issue of non-discrimination in employment , the issue of labeling people with HIV/AIDS as immoral people in every aspect of life and we can talk about policy on treatment of people with HIV/AIDS. It is a topical question these days; The issue of CD4 count in initiating therapy and so forth. There are many things to talk about and with your indulgence Madam Speaker, I can make a written answer to this question.

On why clinics are charging US$5 fee for consultation, you will agree with me that our government has been going through very turbulent times. There was no money to manage clinics, no money to manage hospitals and every health centre and health clinic was doing whatever they wished to survive. That is why some clinics were charging US$5 and others US$10 and so forth. We are going to do away with all these charges because the drugs are donated. We also expect the government to put some money into our health care systems, take care of the health care workers and other things required to run the clinics and as soon as we get money from the Minister of Finance we will be able to run our own clinics without charging anybody.

We will also soon be gazetting or announcing to our clinics and directing them to stop charging for things like ARVs specifically, but the issue is on Anti Retro-viral Therapy.

UPGRADING OF MORTUARIES

7. MR. MANGAMI asked the Minister of Health and Child Welfare to explain the Ministry's position on the upgrading of Mortuaries such as Gokwe mortuary, which cannot cope with the size of the district.

THE MINISTER OF HEALTH AND CHILD WELFARE (DR. MADZORERA): I am pleased to say this question has been delivered to me. We have policies on mortuary and we actually have the standard capacities given to each mortuary and each type of hospital. In district hospitals we build mortuaries which normally carry 21 bodies or provincial hospitals we have mortuaries which take 40 bodies as the minimum. Central hospitals, we want mortuaries which exceed 40 bodies and already there is a programme of work underway for example, Beitbridge Hospital, we are currently upgrading the mortuary which takes 12 bodies at the moment. We are upgrading it to a 30 body mortuary and the other programme is Harare and Mpilo Hospitals where new mortuaries are being built in line with central hospitals. These central hospitals are putting up new mortuaries which take up to 108 bodies at a time.

The programme of upgrading mortuaries has been hampered by lack of finance within the government and as an example the mortuaries at Harare Hospital whose construction started a long time ago have not been finished. We do hope as the economy improves we will be able to finish all these mortuaries. The mortuary referred to at Gokwe Hospital was build under the Family Health Project Phase 1. It has a capacity of 12 bodies and we would like to upgrade it to 21 bodies as per our policy. In the meantime what we are encouraging our people to do is to make sure that we collect our bodies early to avoid congestion. Many bodies are spending months in the mortuaries. If those bodies are not collected, we are encouraging our hospital administration to ensure they arrange pauper burial to make sure that bodies do not accumulate over a year.

MR. NYAMANDE: I have got a question related to mortuaries , Makoni rural hospital has got a mortuary. Now the community have put their hands together to build the mortuary but what is missing at the moment is the roofing material and window panes. I would like to ask the hon. minister whether they have got programmes they have for the communities who are finding it difficult to complete.

DR. MADZORERA: We do not really have a programme specifically directed to people who want to build their own mortuaries. It is the government's responsibility to make sure that there are mortuaries. So if the communities have already done half the job we are most grateful and we will assist in completing that project. The only problem that we know is that of finance and as soon as we get adequate finance, we will come in to assist the communities that have already started the project.

REIMBURSEMENT OF FUNDS FOR TOBACCO FARMERS

13. MR NYAUDE asked the Minister of Agriculture, Mechanization and Irrigation Development to inform the House when tobacco farmers can expect to get reibursement of funds realised from their 2007/08 tobacco sales which were allegedly misappropriated by the Reserve Bank of Zimbabwe.

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, MECHANISATION AND IRRIGATION DEVELOPMENT (DR. MADE): First of all, it is only an allegation that the Reserve Bank misappropriated funds realised from the 2007/08 tobacco sales. I want to appeal to the hon. member to always work on facts rather than allegations. I am aware that the issue of payment to farmers, be it tobacco, wheat or maize, is a matter currently under consideration.

WELKOM ESTATE

14. MR. MUDIWA asked the Minister of Agriculture, Mechanisation and Irrigation Development whether the Ministry is aware; (i) that Welkom Estate (ARDA), which operates as a rural dairy project was allegedly offered to Mrs. Mutasa and Simba Muzariri from the President's Office; (ii) that the two beneficiaries are agitating for all the dairy livestock and equipment; (iii) and if the Minister can clarify the circumstances surrounding the purported expulsion of ARDA from the Estate and; (iv) the resultant negative impact of the ill-advised move, which will be felt by other Rural Dairy Projects in Manicaland recipients such as Dowa, Marange, Tsongo, Sangano, Honde, etc, which were notably breeding livestock and tillage services.

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, MECHANISATION AND IRRIGATION DEVELOPMENT (DR. MADE): I am not aware of this particular case but I am aware that several estates over the years have been under the custody of ARDA pending allocation under the land reform programme; if Welkom Estate has been allocated to land reform beneficiaries, the beneficiaries can purchase movable assets on the said estate at market value, that is if ARDA does not wish to relocate its operations elsewhere. In due course, I am sure ARDA will make its representation to me as Minister on this matter; the purposed expulsion of ARDA falls away given that the institution was on a custodial role of the estate. Hon. member, the move is not ill-advised as ARDA has held properties in a custodial manner before fully knowing that at one time they will have to give way to the land reform programme.

NATIONAL HERD

16 MR MOYO asked the Minister of Agriculture , Mechanization and Irrigation Development (i) to inform the House what the country's total national head of cattle is and what its potential could be; (ii) to state whether the Ministry is aware of the pending movement of 12 000 cattle owned by black farmers in Mwenezi Ranch to pave way for one person when in fact there is no alternative grazing land; (iii) what the ministry's plans are on rebuilding the national herd and when Zimbabweans can expect the beef industry to recover significantly enough to contribute to the economic growth of the country; (iv) to state what Zimbabwe's total requirements for dairy products are; (v) to explain when the county can expect positive improvements in the dairy industry; and (vi) to inform the House what the current level of unemployment of farm workers is given that in good agricultural times Zimbabwe employed over 300 000 farm workers.

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, MECHANISATION AND IRRIGATION DEVELOPMENT (DR MADE): Honourable member, the total national cattle herd currently stands at 5 106 673, while its potential can be upward of 7 000 000.

Madam Speaker, I am not aware of any pending movement of 12 000 cattle owned by black farmers in Mwenezi Ranch to pave way for one person.

A Livestock Development Policy Framework is in place, which aims to promote;

ØPreservation and multiplication of pedigree herd to improve quality of the national herd.

ØUse of artificial insemination.

ØOperations of the Zimbabwe herd book.

Zimbabweans can expect an improvement in the dairy industry in the next two years given the price of stock feed that are going down.

According to the Central Statistics Office (CSO), the agricultural sector employed 1 063 965 people as at March 2003. Latest employment figures will only be made available during the forthcoming labour census in June 2009.

MR S. MOYO: I thought that the reason we submit written questions is that consultations are done in time and I really feel that subsection 2 of this question was not adequately answered and the issue of Mwenezi Ranch.

DR. MADE: Madam Speaker, I have made it very clear that I am not aware of the movement of cattle and I am not the one who moves around the cattle. That is related to farmers and that has to do with the state where the Ministry is aware of pending movements of 12 000 cattle. The question is very clear and I have made that response.

RELOCATION OF THE CHIADZWA PEOPLE

17. HON MUDIWA asked the Minister of Mines and Mining Development to explain:

i) the issue surrounding the relocation of the people of Chiadzwa since the governor of Manicaland has been quoted in the press as having visited the area and given them a deadline to vacate the area by May 2009;

ii) whether an environment impact assessment has been done for the proposed mining area according to section 97 of the Environmental Management Act and whether stakeholders were consulted;

iii) whether an explanation was given to the people of Chiadzwa as to why they have to be; and

iv) whether there is a feasibility report dealing with the effect of the intended relocation showing the impact on the education and culture of the people and how the issue of compensation is going to be addressed.

THE MINISTER OF MINES AND MINING DEVELOPMENT (MR. O. MPOFU): Madam Speaker, I thought this has been responded to by the appropriate ministry, which is that of Home Affairs, but I will try and address some aspects of the question that relates to my ministry.

The hon. member has raised a question on the issues surrounding the relocation of people of Chiadzwa since the Governor of Manicaland has been quoted in the press as having visited the area and given them a deadline to vacate the area by May 2009. Yes, there is an Inter Ministerial Committee that is dealing with this particular issue and what the Governor has said might be correct.

However, it is the Committee that will come up with programmes of implementation in full consultation with the local member of Parliament in handling this matter.

The second question was whether an environment impact assessment has been done for the proposed mining area according to Section 97 of the Environment Management Act and whether stakeholders were consulted. Yes, again this applies to my earlier response where an interim Ministerial Committee will actually liaise with stakeholders before any action is taken towards moving the people to the new area.

The third question was whether an explanation was given to the people of Chiadzwa as to why they have to be moved - again this is an issue that the Interim Ministerial committee is dealing with. I can assure the hon. member that he is also part of the consultation process

WITHDRAWAL OF FUNDS FROM THE AFRICA UNIVERSITY'S FCA ACCOUNT

37. MR. KAGURABADZA asked the Minister of Higher and Tertiary Education whether he is aware that the RBZ has alleged to have withdrawn some money from the Africa University's Public Sector Management Programme's Foreign Currency Account (FCA) and did not reimburse the University resulting in the stalling of the programme and if he could inform the House when the money would be refunded so that the programme can resume its normal operations.

THE MINISTER OF HIGHER AND TERTIARY EDUCATION (DR. MUDENGE): Madam Speaker, I want to thank the hon. member for his question which shows commendable interest in the well being of Africa University. I have gone into the matter raised by the hon. member and I am pleased to inform him that the RBZ has told my Ministry that the issue has now been resolved and I have a copy showing the amount transferred.

STUDENT ATTACHMENTS

38. MR NYAUDE asked the Minister of Higher and Tertiary Education if he is aware that a number of University students seeking work related attachments are failing to do so as the economy in its current state can not absorb them and if he could state if there are any plans to assist these students so that they can complete their studies with minimum delay.

THE MINISTER OF HIGHER AND TERTIARY EDUCATION (DR. MUDENGE): I want to thank the hon. member for his question on work related learning for University students. I have contacted all the authorities at State Universities on the subject and the following are the responses that have reached my office to date. From the University of Zimbabwe, the Chancellor advises that the students who go on industrial and rural attachments are mainly in the college of Health Sciences, Faculty of Commerce, Law and Engineering. The University has not received any complaints regarding industrial and rural attachments for the students in these faculties and the college of Health Sciences.

From NUST the message is the same. I am still expecting responses from the remaining Universities in the following days.

PUBLICATION OF THE KARIBA DRAFT

39. MR. F. M. SIBANDA asked the Minister of Constitutional and Parliamentary Affairs to explain:

i) why the Ministry has not publicized the Kariba Draft for the benefit of this House and the general public;

ii) to define what a people driven and democratic Constitution is , vis-à-vis the process and the end result of the Constitutional making process;

iii) when the Constitutional making process will begin in essence taking into account the limited timeframe of 18 to 24 months as per the GPA signed on 15 September 2008; and

iv) to enlighten this House on the envisaged process in view of public participation and ownership of both the process and the final document.

THE MINISTER OF CONSTITUTIONAL AND PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (ADVO. MATINENGA): Madam Speaker, I thank Hon. Sibanda for raising this critical question regarding very critical issues, which we face today. The question raised by the hon. member is in four parts and I will answer that question in the manner in which it has been put.

The first one relates to the non-publication of the Kariba Draft by the Ministry. Madam Speaker, the starting point is really the Global Political Agreement (GPA). The GPA makes reference to the Kariba Draft which is attached hereto. The majority of members who have access to the GPA know very well that that Kariba Draft was not attached to the GPA. It would have been appropriate for the parties who negotiated and agreed to have made that draft available - it was not done. Be that as it may, Madam Speaker, the Ministry of Parliamentary Affairs is very alive to its responsibilities to make sure that this document which is necessary for the constitutional making process available. What the Ministry is doing is to embark on a systematic approach to make this document available. So number 1 is to make it available to MPs, to the generality of the Zimbabwean population with copies of the GPA.

This particular document is going to be made available in the three main languages that it English, Chishona and Isindebele. Yesterday members of the Cabinet were given copies of this document and I instructed to day that sufficient copies be made available in the Papers' Office so that every MP has access to a copy. Over and above to these provisions, we have also made sure that each MP is given sufficient copies - let us say 60 so that he is able to make available to his constituents this document. In addition to this, we have also made available this document to public institutions like churches, police stations, schools, army barracks etc. This is done so that MPs and everybody else becomes aware of what that Political Agreement is all about so that there is no misrepresentation as to what that particular agreement provides. So, after this first step, the Ministry is going to make available in the three main languages the present Constitution which is the Lancaster House Constitution. It is going to make available to the public the year 2000 draft which was rejected, the NCA draft. It is also going to make it available obviously the Kariba draft. This is all in an effort to make our population as educated as possible so that they know why they still have to contribute to the making of this constitution.

The second part of the question is to define what a people driven constitution is vis-a- vis the process and the end product. Madam Speaker, we have heard from different people what it means when we say a people driven process. Unfortunately Madam Speaker, Sir...

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order hon. minister, I can not be a Madam and a Sir at the same time - [Laughter] -

ADV. MATINENGA: I want to thank you Madam Speaker for that correction but some people say the Speaker has got no sex. That is why I made that reference. Madam Speaker, we have fallen into error unfortunately, in giving a political slogan to what is people driven. We have tended to identify the institution and not to define what that institution does. When we talk about a process being people driven, it is not whether that process is managed or initiated by a Select Committee, is managed or initiated by an independent body, is managed by a constituent assembly for that matter. What we mean is, what is that institution doing in order that the people it is supposed to serve, the people in the country feel that they own the document? At the end of the day that is what we must be looking at and not to seek to make decisions which are basically of a political nature.

What it means therefore Madam Speaker is that in order for this to be a process which is people driven, it means from the very beginning, the people of this country must be involved and I can assure Madam Speaker and hon. members that the Select Committee which is already in place will leave no stone unturned to make sure that every person in this country becomes part of this process. It should make sure that every person in this country participates in this process and how are they going to do it Madam Speaker? This particular committee already has begun sitting. It has already started making a draft plan but because it is aware that it is not only its views to be known, it is only making draft statements, draft plans. These draft plans are going to be advertised. Civic society, individuals, people in this country are going to be invited to contribute to those draft plans and it is only when there is an agreement at the first stakeholders' conference that concrete work plans and concrete sub-committees and concrete roll outs are agreed to and proceeded with.

Madam Speaker, it is not true that this process is going to be driven and that this process is going to be a preserve of the few, it is going to be a preserve of the people of Zimbabwe. Let me come to the said portion. When will the constitutional process begin? The constitutional process has already begun. When one looks at Article No. 6, it has got certain formal deadlines in which in respect of which certain activities should be undertaken. The first activity in terms of article 6 is bringing in about the Parliamentary Select Committee. I am glad to report that this particular institution is already in place and that this institution was put in place in accordance with the parameters set in Article No. 6. but, what we have realised and what we are doing and what we will always do is to make sure that it is not only the formal benchmarks that we are to meet but it is what we can do outside those formal benchmarks.

Madam Speaker, we have been holding meetings and we are now in the process of arranging meetings well before the formal first Stakeholders' Conference. So from this period up to July or mid July an all stakeholders Conference will be held. We are going to make sure that we hold other meetings at which we are going to be inviting the public. We are going to invite members of the civic society to express themselves so that their concerns are addressed on time so that when we eventually come to the first all Stakeholders Conference, all these concerns are properly addressed and properly dealt with. So the process is on and I invite all hon. members to be part of that process. I can say without any contradiction that every member of Parliament surely must consider himself as a stakeholder.

The last part which is to enlighten this House on the envisaged process in view of public participation and ownership of both processes in the final document. Madam Speaker, I have already made reference to what is being done but what is important is that, what we have started to do is to make sure that everybody comes on board. We are not going to force any person to come on board but it is important that everybody feels to come on board. It is also important Madam Speaker that even for those persons who think differently from us, we are not going to exclude them, we are not going to prevent them from saying anything. What we have said is that yes they may say things which are different from us but as a democracy, as a way of opening up, let us protect their rights to say what they want to say. In this process we hope that they will all come because we are not going to close doors for everybody. This process is going to be owned by people of Zimbabwe and everybody in Zimbabwe is invited in Zimbabwe to attend. Thank you Madam Speaker.

Oral answers to questions with notice interrupted by the Deputy Speaker in terms of Order Number 34.

MOTION

RATIFICATION OF THE SADC PROTOCOL ON SCIENCE, TECHNOLOGY AND INNOVATION

THE MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY: I movethe motion standing in my name that whereas SUBSECTION (1) of section 111B of the Constitution of Zimbabwe provides that any convention, treaty or agreement acceded to, concluded or executed by or under the authority of the President and with one or more states or governments or international organisations shall be subject to approval by Parliament:

AND WHEREAS THE SADCProtocol on Science, Technology and innovation was concluded and signed by SADC members on 17 August 2008 in Johannesburg, Republic of South Africa.

AND WHEREAS, the entry into force of the aforesaid protocol is subject to ratification by the signatory of Member States in accordance with their respective constitutional procedures;

NOW THEREFORE, in terms of sub-section (1) of 111B of the Constitution, this House resolves that the aforesaid protocol be and is hereby approved.

This is to do with Science and Technology Protocol for the SADC region as many hon. members will be aware. The primary goal of the SADC region is to ensure that there is sustainable but equitable development of the region in such a manner that major challenges that the region is facing such as eradication of poverty and reduction of the gap of the level of development between the region and the developed countries is reduced. There are essential issues that the region is anxious to embark on. It has been recognised that Science and Technology is cross cutting amongst the various sectors and this protocol essentially underscores three areas which I would like to touch on briefly.

Firstly, it is simply underscoring the need for cooperation of member countries in promoting Science and Technology throughout the region. It is going to do so in such a manner that all the individual governments can collaborate and also the research institutions we have in the region can collaborate.

It is going to do so in a manner which recognises the need for gender equity in various methods. It is going to do so in a manner that tries to avoid a duplication in the usage of facilities that we have within the region. Finally, it recognises the need to make use of our experts in the diaspora. We may not be able to make use of them on a country to country basis but when we do so as a region it is likely to be much more effective. The second aspect is that it is generally the recognised that many of the countries that have developed very speedily have done so by contributing significantly to aspects of research and development.

Accordingly, the member countries have committed themselves to make an effort that at least one percent of GDP expenditures get devoted to research and development. Member countries are going to share experiences and see if that can be achieved.

Thirdly, through this protocol, it is also the intention to establish a unity on Science and Technology innovation as part of the secretariat of the SADC Development countries which will be set again in Gaborone.

With these brief comments Madam Speaker, I am pleased to move that this motion be approved.

Motion put and agreed to.

MOTION

DISTRIBUTION OF AGRICULTURAL INPUTS

Second Order read: Adjourned debate on motion on the distribution of agricultural inputs.

Question again proposed.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon. Gonese has moved an amendment and hon. members who have already contributed to the motion can contribute again on the amendment proposed.

MR. GONESE: I move the amendment standing in my name, to delete, all the words after; '....put in place'.

When this motion was debated it was clear that it received the support of all members from both sides of the House. However, there were some members who had reservations about the involvement of elected officials particularly Members of Parliament. I believe that obviously when you make politicians involved directly you may have a danger where those Members of Parliament may end up being part of the problem. I believe that as some of the hon. members have expressed, it is better to leave out Members of Parliament from being directly involved in the distribution of inputs. I discussed this with my counterpart Hon. Gumbo as the mover of the motion and we have agreed that there would be no use for Members of Parliament and Councillors to be directly involved. We have also confirmed with the committee on Agriculture, Water, Lands and Resettlement, obviously that committee will have under its purview the review of the distribution of inputs.

We all agreed that for the long term it is important that agriculture should be financed privately but for now it is very clear that there is need for disadvantaged rural farmers to have assistance from government. The essence of the whole thing is that we must have in place a transparent mechanism. As a result, I am therefore moving that the motion be amended by the deletion of those words which refer to elected officials such as Councillors and Members of Parliament.

I would like to reiterate that I have discussed this amendment with the mover of the motion. With those few words, I so move my amendment.

THE DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER (PROF. A. MUTAMBARA): I move that the debate do now adjourn.

Motion put and agreed to.

Debate to resume: Tuesday, 16th June, 2009.

MOTION

PRESIDENTIAL SPEECH: DEBATE ON ADDRESS

Third Order read: Adjourned debate on motion in reply to the Presidential Speech.

THE DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER (PROF. A. MUTAMBARA): I move that the debate do now adjourn.

Motion put and agreed to.

Debate to resume: Tuesday, 16th June, 2009.

MOTION

CRISIS IN THE EDUCATION SECTOR

Fourth Order read. Adjourned debate on the motion on the postponement of the opening of schools from the 13th to 27th of January 2009.

Question again proposed.

MR. BHASIKITI: I want to take this opportunity to thank the Hon. Minister of Education for being responsive to the concerns of this Hon House which made it clear that the fees being charged at primary and secondary schools were too high and in response fees were reduced to $5 and $10. This is a very positive development which this House should acknowledge. However, Madam Speaker, I still feel the minister concerned should ..........

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order, order, hon. member I understand you debated on this motion, you can not debate for the second time.

THE DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER (PROF. A. MUTAMBARA): I move that the debate be now adjourned.

Motion put and agreed to.

Debate to resume: Tuesday, 16th June, 2009.

On the motion of the DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER (PROF. A. MUTAMBARA) , the House adjourned at Twenty Seven minutes to Five o'clock p.m. until Tuesday, 16 June, 2009.

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National Assembly Hansard Vol. 35 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY HANSARD - 13 MAY 2009 VOL. 35 NO. 30