You are here:Home>National Assembly Hansard>Vol. 40>NATIONAL ASSEMBLY HANSARD - 6 NOVEMBER 2013 VOL. 40 NO. 13


Wednesday, 6th November, 2013

The National Assembly met at a Quarter-past Two O'clock p.m.



(MR. SPEAKER in the Chair)



MR. SPEAKER: I wish to inform the House of the following changes in Portfolio Committee Membership; Hon. Chirisa will no longer serve on the Portfolio Committee on Youth, Indigenisation and Economic Empowerment as he already serves in other two Committees. Hon. Khupe will serve on the Finance and Economic Planning Committee, Hon. B. Tshuma will move from the Justice, Legal and Parliamentary Affairs Committee to the Media, Information and Broadcasting Services Committee, Hon. Musundire will serve on the Public Accounts Committee and the Portfolio Committee on Foreign Affairs, Hon. D. Tshuma will serve on the Portfolio Committees on Health and Childcare and Education, Sports and Culture.


MR. SPEAKER: All hon. members interested in soccer activities under Parliament of Zimbabwe Warriors Team should meet on Thursday, 7th November, 2013 at 12:30hours in the Government Caucus Room. Hon. members can contact Hon. Saruwaka and Hon. Munengami for more information.


MR. SPEAKER: I would like to recognize the presence of students from Celebration International School in Harare, in the Speakers Gallery. You are most welcome.


MR. MLISWA: Thank you Mr. Speaker Sir. Minister of Finance, the agricultural season is upon us and A2 farmers rely on money that the Government would have allocated to agriculture, but we still have not been able to access any money pertaining to A2 farming despite reading in the press that there has been over US$1 billion which has been raised for agriculture. When you go to the financial institutions, they are still demanding some form of security. I would like to know if the money is still available and which institution we can go to which does not require the A2 farmers to have any security. Thank you.

THE MINISTER OF FINANCE AND ECONOMIC PLANNING (MR. CHINAMASA): Firstly, Mr. Speaker Sir, this is not a policy issue. The hon. member is asking me to give a lot of detail, which I cannot do off the cuff, but suffice to say, Mr. Speaker, that banks run overdrafts with their customers on a seasonal basis and when that lent amount is paid back, they roll over those overdrafts into the next year.

The figure the hon. member mentioned is that under that format, about US$800 million, is being lent to agriculture for the 2013 and 2014 agricultural season. This is being targeted to grow a variety of crops; tobacco, sugar cane, soya beans, maize and cotton. So, as to what amounts are being earmarked to be lent for growing each of these crops, I will need more time to seek out that information, but I want to say that the banks are running overdrafts. If you are an already existing customer, then you are catered for but there is no catering for new customers because of the liquidity crunch.

With respect to the A2 farmers, yes, I am struggling to find some money to give to Agribank for on lending to A2 farmers but the efforts I am making have not yet been concluded.

MR. SPEAKER: May I remind hon. members that if the question is not on policy, it shall be struck off by asking the hon. member to take their seat.

MR. GONESE: Thank you Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the Minister of Transport and Infrastructural Development. I want to find out from the minister as to whether it is deliberate Government policy not to prioritise the dualisation of the Beitbridge to Harare road and yet it appears to be the busiest of our roads? I want to find out from the minister when we can expect that to be prioritised?

THE MINISTER OF TRANSPORT AND INFRASTRUCTURAL DEVELOPMENT (DR. O. MPOFU): The hon. member referred to his question as a policy question and you directed that issues dealing with policy should be asked in the manner that you have outlined. There is no deliberate policy by Government not to develop any road infrastructure in the country. I see the hon. member has raised similar questions which I am going to deal with appropriately. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MS. D. SIBANDA: My question, hon. Speaker, is directed to the Minister of Finance and Economic Planning. Maybe minister, if you could tell this august House how you will settle the US$10 billion debt overhang and if you could also tell this House the outcome of the meeting which you had in Washington last month? Thank you.

MR. SPEAKER: Unfortunately that is not a policy question.

MR. HOLDER: Thank you Mr. Speaker. My question is directed to the Minister of Finance and Economic Planning. When you borrow money from a bank, the bank charges you 25% to 30% interest but when you try to recover a debt from a client you are only allowed 5% interest. What happens to the other 25%? How do we repay that back?

MR. SPEAKER: Your question, hon. member, does not verge on policy - [Laughter]-

MR. MAHLANGU: My question is directed to the Minister of Transport and Infrastructural Development. What is the Government's policy towards setting up toll gates in towns?

THE MINISTER OF TRANSPORT AND INFRASTUCTURAL DEVELOPMENT (DR. O. MPOFU): I want to thank the hon. member for raising that topical observation. I think he is aware that consultations are being conducted throughout the country, to come up with a policy on that particular issue. Until that has been done, it will be difficult for me to give him a definitive answer to that very important question. Thank you.

MR. CHIKWINYA: Thank you Mr. Speaker, in the absence of the Minister of Defence, I will direct my question to the senior minister of state here present. My question is: how prepared is Zimbabwe, hon. minister to safeguard its territorial integrity, especially on the Eastern Border in view of the Renamo attacks in Mozambique?

MR. SPEAKER: Order, order, hon. member Haiwa, hon. member Haiwa, please, can we follow our questions with a policy direction?

MS. ANASTANCIA NDHLOVU: Thank you Mr. Speaker Sir, My question is directed to the Minister of Environment, Water and Climate, Hon. Saviour Kasukuwere. I would like to find out from the hon. minister, what Government policy is on climate change, recognising that we see already - we cannot understand how the weather is, today is very cold, the next day it is fizzy, with relation to food security? I thank you Mr. Speaker Sir.

THE MINISTER OF ENVIRONMENT, WATER AND CLIMATE (MR. KASUKUWERE): Thank you Mr. Speaker Sir, I would like to thank the hon. member for her question, relating to the issue of climate change. Admittedly Mr. Speaker Sir, we are now facing the effects of climate change in Zimbabwe and the world over. We have just got a new department now in the Ministry of Environment, Water and Climate where we are now busy working on the National Strategic Plan of how to respond to the issue of climate change.

I am also pleased to say that some of the areas that are of major concern to us; number one is the issue of food security, we are seeing drought encroachment, with more land becoming dry. Also, the problem of not getting rains on time, I am sure that as time goes on, as a country and the world at large, apart from the efforts that we are trying to make right now, which will lead into the COB 19 Processes to be held in Warsaw next week. We believe that we need to have consent in the response to the issue of climate change in terms of the economy; in terms of agriculture; in terms of food security. Some of the responses and measures we are taking are to work around the issues of construction of new dams and more dams in the country to mitigate against the effects of droughts, to allow our farmers to plough knowing fully well that they have the resources that they require in terms of growing food.

The question, Mr. Speaker Sir, relates directly to agriculture, I will try and limit my answer to the issue of food security. The response is we need to build more dams; improve on our irrigation systems so that we can avert the issue of hunger in the country. Thank you Mr. Speaker Sir.

MR. G. MOYO: Thank you Mr. Speaker Sir. My question is directed to the Minister of Local Government, Public Works and National Housing, and in his absence, I am sure the Leader of the House can respond to it. It is in three parts; Mr. Speaker Sir. Firstly, I would like to know why the Metropolitan Councils and the Provincial Councils have not been constituted and institutionalised, eight months after the new national Constitution of this Republic came to force, and three months after the formation of this current Government?

Secondly, Mr. Speaker Sir, what will inform the subtext of the budget of the Metropolitan Councils and Provincial Councils in the absence of the institutional architecture that should govern those institutions? Finally, Mr. Speaker Sir, I am just curious to know why the issue of devolution is not in the Zim-Asset Document. I thank you.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the House is not present at the moment. I am not sure if Hon. Minister Chinamasa has been so delegated to respond on behalf of the Leader of the House.

THE MINISTER OF FINANCE (MR. CHINAMASA): I am Acting Minister of Justice, so I take it in that capacity; I am also Acting Leader of the House. If it pleases Mr. Speaker, I will answer the question.

MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, you have the floor.

MR. CHINAMASA: Hon. Gorden Moyo, thank you very much for your questions. The two questions you asked and then provided the answers. You asked why we have not set up Metropolitan Councils and Provincial Councils, three months after the elections and perhaps a shorter period after the Cabinet was set up. Someone has to do it, and it could only have been the Cabinet. You went on to provide the answer; there is no institutional framework, so the first thing that needs to be done is to provide that institutional framework; thereafter the relevant ministries could go up and proceed to set up Councils.

Of course that takes time, these are new concepts completely. For instance for Provincial Councils, we have to set up the secretariat; we have to understand how they relate to the central Government and how they interact with the organs that are below them. All those things take time, which is why we were arguing before the elections, that these things cannot be done. It was going to take years to do it, which is why we were pressing for elections so that we could have a new Government which could then look into these matters.

Why the devolution matter is not in place, it is a question of assent. As you know, we were never agreed on these issues. We have agreed to the extent of setting up Provincial Councils and I have already given you an answer. So if you are looking for a specific word, to say 'devolution', you will not get it, - [HON MEMBERS: hear, hear.] - we will set up these structures that are in the Constitution. These structures are to do with the Metropolitan Councils; these structures are to do with the Provincial Councils. We will then proceed further to give them powers which are set out in the Constitution that we will do. Thank you.

MR. SPEAKER: Hon. members, supplementary question should come from one person.

MRS. MISIHAIRABWI-MUSHONGA: Is the Minister basically saying that the concept of devolution as defined in the Constitution will not be written in any public document?

Secondly, those that were elected in the last election will not be sworn in until the framework has been set up, is that what he is saying?

MR. CHINAMASA : Mr. Speaker Sir, I said that we will comply with the latter and spirit of the Constitution, which sets out provincial structures, secretariat and metropolitan councils, that we will do. We will also comply with giving those structures the powers that are set out in the Constitution and I think the hon. member is aware of the relevant provisions of the Constitution, which give the functions to these structures. Outside that we have no other obligations.

*MR. CHINOTIMBA: Mr. Speaker Sir, my question is directed to the Minister of Transport. I want to find out which roads he intends to start re-tarring. Secondly, what is the position in terms of roads in rural areas where the roads are very bad and not accessible, what are their intentions? Thank you.

MR. SPEAKER: I seem to understand the hon. member to say, what are the policy priorities in terms of tarring of the roads?

THE MINISTER OF TRANSPORT AND INFRASTRUCTURAL DEVELOPMENT (DR. MPOFU): Thank you Mr. Speaker Sir, Hon. Chinotimba's question is a very important and pertinent one. The Government's intention is to upgrade all roads throughout the country including the rural roads. In doing so, we are giving local authorities road equipment. So far we have actually disbursed about 40 graders to local authorities, and next week we will be proceeding with this programme which was launched by His Excellency, the President a few weeks ago, to those who have not benefited so far. However, the intention of Government funding is to upgrade all our roads, both the major ones and even the ones in the rural areas. Thank you.

MR. ZVIDZAI: Mr. Speaker Sir, my question is directed to the Minister of Finance. Is it Government policy to deny local authorities, particularly urban councils transfers from the centre, notwithstanding that the Constitution provides that at least 5% of the national fiscus should be transferred to Local authorities and provincial councils? Thank you.

THE MINISTER OF FINANCE (MR. CHINAMASA): I am not aware of the situation that the hon. member is referring to, but what I can say is that the provisions of the new Constitution are very clear with respect to disbursement towards local authorities and he has already mentioned the percentage that should go to local authorities - (Laughter)-.

MR. NDUNA: Thank you Mr. Speaker Sir, I was guest of honour at Kadoma Prison representing the Deputy Minister of Justice on the belated Africa Prisons Day. My question to the Minister of Justice, Legal and Parliamentary Affairs is as follows; as we toured that place, I saw breastfeeding mothers and I was very touched. I want to know what Government policy is regarding the imprisonment of mothers together with their suckling young ones.

THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE, LEGAL AND PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (MR. CHASI): Thank you Mr. Speaker. The question that has been raised by Hon. Nduna is a very important issue, which as I understand, relates to the imprisonment of children who accompany their mothers to prison. This is a matter that we are actively engaged in and trying to find a solution. Society has generally not been very supportive to the prisoners in terms of accepting those children who belong to parents who are in custody. It is a matter that we are actively considering. There are various ways of working around this, one of which is to look at an open prison system, which will allow freedom to the children who are in prisons.

However, I heard an hon. member referring to sanctions, there are limitations as to the resources that are available to the Department of Prisons and we are trying to think as much as possible outside the box to ensure that the children who have not committed crimes are not themselves turned into prisoners. Thank you.

MR. CHAMISA: Thank you Hon. Speaker. My question is directed to Hon. Chinamasa being the Leader of the House. Having received numerous reports Hon. Minister, from the countryside on the distribution of food and other inputs; is it the policy of this Government to use food as a political weapon against perceived MDC supporters? - [HON. MEMBERS: Mabaiwa, mabaiwa.]-

THE MINISTER OF FINANCE AND ECONOMIC PLANNING (MR. CHINAMASA): I think that the country is going through a very difficult patch and we have a lot of areas with people who are going hungry. They are in need of food distribution. The policy of the Government is to ensure no Zimbabwean goes hungry, goes without food. The promise of Government also is that distribution of food is to everybody without respect to political affiliation, religious, ethnicity or otherwise. Everybody is entitled to food distribution and I know that is what is actually happening. But I also know that from time to time people find excuses to try to rubbish the policy and the question you raised is basically raising that issue.

MR. SARUWAKA: Thank you Mr. Speaker. For the benefit of the likes of Hon. Chinotimba and Hon. Matambanadzo, may you please explain what a policy question is so that the Hon. Members can be guided better [HON MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections]

MR. SPEAKER: Order! Order! The Hon. Member's question is frivolous and vexatious, I shall not entertain it.

MS. MAJOME: Thank you Mr. Speaker Sir. My question is directed to the Hon Deputy Minister of Justice Legal and Parliamentary Affairs. I would like to know what Government policy is on security in prisons. To put the question in a different way, is it Government Policy on Security in prisons that Maximum Security Prison is the prison in which people can break with greatest ease? I ask this in view of the recent shocking escape of more than 34 prisoners from Maximum Security Prison. Never before have I heard people breaking out of Remand Prison - [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections]-

THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE, LEGAL AND PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (MR. CHASI): Thank you Mr. Speaker Sir, the short answer is that it is not Government Policy to arrange security in such a manner that people may escape The fact thatit may happen from time to time does not constitute a policy of Government. Thank you.

MRS. L. SIBANDA: In the absence of the Minister of Industry and Commerce, I will ask the Government Leader to respond. What policy intervention does the Ministry have to support local textile industry which has been overwhelmed by cheap imports from China?

THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF INDUSTRY AND COMERCE (MRS MABUWA): Thank you Mr. Speaker Sir. For the benefit of the member, I would like to announce that the Deputy Minister of Industry and Commerce is here. I will be happy to articulate your question which I will give in five parts, regarding the policy measures that the Ministry of Industry and Commerce put in place to support the textile industry that has been overwhelmed by cheap imports. As I understood your question Hon. member;

1 We have rebate duty;

2 Duty review;

3 We also have re-negotiation of the Zimbabwe-South Africa bilateral trade agreement;

4 smuggling issues and

5 local procurement.

I will be happy to give a full fledged answer to the question once this comes across in writing. Thank you. - [HON MEMBERS: Hear, hear]-

MR. MASHAYAMOMBE: Thank you Mr. Speaker Sir. Mine goes to the Senior Minister present here. What is the Government policy on land acquisition for urban expansion? There are some farms which were gazzeted in 2003 which are now being claimed by our fellow black business persons saying they have purchased these pieces of land, some in 2010 and 2011, six, seven years after they were gazzeted. Thank you.

MR SPEAKER: Hon. member can you repeat your question please?

MR MASHAYAMOMBE: Thank you Mr. Speaker Sir. Mine goes to the Senior Minister present here. What is the Government policy on land acquisition for urban expansion? There are some farms which were gazzeted in 2003 which are now being claimed by our fellow black business persons saying they have purchased these pieces of land, some in 2010, six or seven years after they were gazzeted. I thank you.

MR. SPEAKER. The question is directed to the Minister of Mines. Leader of the House can you help?

THE MINISTER OF FINANCE AND ECONOMIC PLANNING: I was going to suggest Mr. Speaker that he puts the question in writing because it deserves some research and a comprehensive answer. I think it should be put across to the Minister of Local Government.

MRS. MUZUNGU MASAITI: Thank you Mr. Speaker Sir. My question is directed to the Minister of Environment, Water and Climate. Is there a Government policy with regard to people caught causing veld fires unnecessarily, thereby destroying the balance of the ecosystem? In some cases they have caused the destruction of people's properties and homes. Does the Government assist people whose properties would have been destroyed by veld fires?

THE MINISTER OF ENVIRONMENT, WATER AND CLIMATE (MR. KASUKUWERE): Thank you very much Mr. Speaker Sir. I would like to thank the hon. member for the question. Certainly, anybody causing veld fires will be arrested. The Environmental Management Authority (EMA) has prosecuted a number of people and some have been made to pay fines. Those with serious cases have been jailed and so on. With regard to the second part of the question, we do not have the capacity to help anybody whose homes would have been destroyed, save for some social interventions that may be made. In terms of our standing policies in Government, EMA will not be able to compensate anybody. However, those parties who would have caused the veld fires would therefore be called upon to make compensation for those who would have lost their homes and equipment.

MR. MAHLANGU: What is Government Policy towards the protection of animals that would have been affected by the veld fires?

THE MINISTER OF ENVIRONMENT, WATER AND CLIMATE (MR. KASUKUWERE): Mr. Speaker Sir, I am not sure whether this is a supplementary question or it is a new question. However, I would like to say that we are grateful to the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (SPCA) and to a number of wild life organisations which have always taken care of some of the animals injured along the way and in the process. Even our own National Parks also take care of these animals and try to nurse them back to health. Thank you.

MS. MANGAMI: Thank you Mr. Speaker Sir. My question is directed to the Minister of Finance. What is Government Policy regarding the financial assistance to people whose health is complicated in such a way that they might need heart transplants and other things which are very expensive?

THE MINISTER OF FINANCE AND ECONOMIC PLANNING (MR. CHINAMASA): I think the question should be directed to the Minister of Health and not Finance.

MR. SPEAKER: Did you get the answer hon. member.

THE MINISTER OF FINANCE AND ECONOMIC PLANNING (MR. CHINAMASA): It requires a more specific answer and I would ask the Minister of Health to respond to that question.

MR. MARIDADI: Thank you Mr. Speaker. My question is directed to the Minister of Primary and Secondary Education, and in his absence, the Deputy Minister, Prof. Mavima. What is Government Policy pertaining to the licencing of private colleges especially those operating in high density areas? What is the policy pertaining to the school fees that they charge, given that the people in high density areas do not even have enough money to send their children to government secondary schools which are cheaper than the private colleges?

THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF PRIMARY AND SECONDARY EDUCATION (PROF. MAVIMA): Thank you Mr. Speaker Sir. That is a question which would require very specific answers and I would require more time to look at it and give a response. Thank you.

MR. MARIDADI: Thank you Mr. Speaker. With all due respect to the hon. Deputy Minister, I am surprised that we could have such a high proliferation of private colleges operating in high density areas and in town and yet the Government does not have a policy on their licencing - [AN HON. MEMBER: We are a new Government.]

MR. MARIDADI: Hon. Kasukuwere, allow the minister to answer please.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, order.

THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF PRIMARY AND SECONDARY EDUCATION (PROF. MAVIMA): Thank you Mr. Speaker Sir. I do not know where the impression that Government does not have a policy is coming from- [AN HON. MEMBER: From your answer]- my answer says that this requires a very specific answer. To do justice to it, I would require time so that- [AN HON. MEMBER: Alright, so it is you who does not know] - yes.

MR. SANSOLE: Thank you Mr. Speaker. My question is directed to the Leader of Government Business in the House. I would like to know which policy interventions have been made to curb the excessive salaries which senior executives of State Parastatals and State Enterprises have awarded themselves? The salaries have a bearing on the financial position of those parastatals. In the event that those salaries are successfully reduced, what measures are in place to ensure that the actions are not repeated in the form of fuel allowances and so on? Thank you.

THE MINISTER OF FINANCE AND ECONOMIC PLANNING (MR. CHINAMASA): I am grateful to the hon. minister who has asked that question. This is a matter that we are going to look into.

MR. SPEAKER: Did you say hon. minister?

MR. CHINAMASA: Hon. Member of Parliament. Sorry- [Laughter]- This is a matter we are going to look into and see what appropriate interventions we can make in order to curb those salary levels. I thank you.

*MR. MATAMBANADZO: Thank you Mr. Speaker Sir. My question is directed to the Minister of Justice, Legal and Parliamentary Affairs. I have three questions-[HON. MEMBERS: One, one.]-hoo ione? My question is that there is a Government policy that is being used but it is very weak-[AN HON. MEMBER: Ndeipi?]- The policy is- [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections] - this policy…

Oral Answers to Questions without notice were interrupted by MR. SPEAKER in terms of Standing Order Number 34.


MR. SPEAKER: I ask the indulgence of the House that the questions subsequent be stood over until Questions 26 to 28 are dealt with. The Minister of Finance has got a visiting delegation from IMF in the next 20 minutes. Can he be allowed to deal with those questions pertaining to his portfolio?


26. MR. CROSS asked the Minister of Finance and Economic Planning to inform the House on the:

(i) Terms and conditions agreed with the International Monetary Fund as the basis of the Staff Monitored Programme,

(ii) The plans that exist to ensure compliance with the Staff Monitored Programme,

(iii) Whether Zimbabwe is on the Staff Monitored Schedule.

THE MINISTER OF FINANCE AND ECONOMIC PLANNING (MR. CHINAMASA): Thank you very much Mr. Speaker. I thank the Hon. Member, Mr. Cross for asking this question. Before I do that, can I correct him that my proper title is Minister of Finance and Economic Development and not Budget, Finance and Economic Development. Nevertheless, I thank him for asking the question because it affords me an opportunity to explain our relations with the Bretton Woods Institution. Mr. Speaker Sir, we are a member of the Bretton Woods Institution which comprises the IMF, the World Bank, African Development Bank (ADB) and International Finance Corporation (IFC).

The total membership of the Bretton Woods Institution is 188 member countries. We are a serious member of these institutions. There are benefits that can accrue to us as a member. These benefits are basically in the case of IMF, receiving balance of payments support and in the case of the World Bank, to receive soft loans or concessional lending towards infrastructural development such as power generation plants, roads, et cetera. Therefore, I want to make it very clear that we are a member.

Due to the situation we went through during the past 13 years, we were unable to pay the principal debt and the installments when they became due and we got into arrears amounting to $4 billion. That means we can no longer access the benefits we are entitled to as a member. In order to restore the benefits of membership to Zimbabwe, we entered into a Staff Monitored Programme which looks at the soundness of macro-economic policies. Therefore, we are under a Staff Monitored Programme.

Some of the benchmarks and quantitative targets that we have to fulfill are basically to amend our Mines and Minerals Act so that the sale of our minerals is more transparent. Some of them are to do with the structure of a budget, which as you know Mr. Speaker, is skewed against capital formation. 70% of the revenue we collect is going towards wages. That is not good; it means we are eating today and we are not providing for tomorrow, next year and the years to come. It is important that we work towards a structural budget so that we skew it towards capital formation, at least to the acceptable standard of 30%.

In short, we are a member of the IMF; we have dialogue with them. They are in fact here, they came yesterday for a review and we are going to discuss with them. We already know that some of the benchmarks we have not been able to fulfill, especially to do with amendments to the Mines and Minerals Act, the Precious Stones Act, et cetera will be attended to. They review this programme annually but I also need to take the platform. Mr. Speaker Sir, in my discussions with them, I asked for a different approach to the uniqueness of our position. We have no capacity to pay the principal debt and they agree that we have no capacity to service or clear the arrears - they agree.

The Staff Monitored Programme is placing us at a standstill position. In other words, there is no growth to our economy; there is no new money. So I have been arguing with them that they should provide new money to give us capacity to be able to pay their debt. Any creditor would understand this language that if they are serious about receiving clearance and payments on the debts, they should capacitate us by giving us new money so that we are able to pay and clear our arrears. Basically, that is the message we are conveying in our dialogue with the Bretton Woods Institution. I hope that the hon. member understands the response that I have given. I thank you Mr. Speaker.

MR. CHIKWINYA: Thank you Mr. Speaker. My supplementary question is with regards to the concept of requesting for new money. I know it is a matter of confidence with the Bretton Woods Institution. What measures have you suggested to them, which place confidence in them, for them to give you new money?

MR. CHINAMASA: The hon. member is correct. We need to restore confidence in our image as a country and that image can be restored if as a people, we speak with one voice - [HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.]

Also, Zimbabweans are very good at bad mouthing their own country, policies and Government outside the country. It is important on this issue that we work as united people to speak well about ourselves, not only about our country, but just about ourselves. With Zimbabweans, you can count and this you do not find in other nationalities. If a visitor comes to Zimbabwe and says Zimbabwean people are nice and peaceful, I can bet you, you can find a Zimbabwean who will say, no, they are not. Now, that is not good. It is not good for our image and for us. It is important - [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.]

What I am saying Mr. Speaker is that, I do agree completely with the …

MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! Can the Minister be heard?

MR. CHINAMASA: What I am saying and agreeing with the honourable Member of Parliament is that, we need to restore our confidence. We used to build a track record and we need to build a track record on how we do things. We need to do things differently and we must commit ourselves, not just as Government but the whole population. If we do that, we also need, Mr. Speaker Sir, a better culture to borrow and pay back. A lot of the problems that we have with respect to our image are, as a borrower who does not have a commitment to repay the loans. That also we must change. So I hope that I have adequately answered your question.

MR. CHAMISA: I also want to thank Hon. Chinamasa for being very candid and honest for the first time. I am saying this consciously Hon. Speaker, that you may be aware that there has been this mantra that this country is under some kind of restrictive measures but from his own submission, it is clear that this country is not under any measure and that - [HON. MEMEBERS: Inaudible interjections.] -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! Hon. Chamisa, can you ask a supplementary question?

MR. CHAMISA: My supplementary question which I was trying to preface is that from what you have said, is there now a U-turn in terms of policy by Government to re-engage the West especially acknowledging that we have done a lot of bad - [HON. MEMEBRS: Inaudible interjections].

MR. CHINAMASA: I thought I spelt out the policy of Government with respect to engagement. As far as I am concerned in my capacity and as far as Government is concerned, we want economies to talk to each other, irrespective of the political differences that we may have. In this respect, I basically want to address the preface that you were trying to make here. I have to respond to that preface because it is so misleading.

Some of the people I saw when I was in Washington were from the State Department and I was asking them to lift sanctions. They did not say there are no sanctions, they admitted but they gave other reasons why they are not lifting them. I met many ministers from Europe, again, asking them to lift sanctions, they did not say there are no sanctions. When Zimbabweans themselves who are suffering say that there are no sanctions, there is a problem - [HON. MEMEBRS: Hear, hear.] - Those who impose sanctions are not denying that they imposed sanctions. The argument and the dialogue is basically, when can they meet them. That is the argument. Yes, I know you are feeling guilty because you asked for sanctions - [HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.] -

Questions Without Notice interrupted by the Speaker in terms of Standing Order No. 33.


MR. SPEAKER: Order, I am conscious of the time factor that the Minister is to engage the IMF delegation who are here which partly also answers the supplementary question of Hon. Chamisa. I would like the Minister to quickly respond to question Number 27.



27. MR. CROSS asked the Minister of Finance and Economic Planning to give the House a clear statement of revenue accruing to the State from the tax collected during the first seven months of 2013 and to make a forecast of these revenues to the end of the year.

THE MINISTER OF FINANCE AND ECONOMIC PLANNING (MR. CHINAMASA): Mr. Speaker Sir, I think the hon. member would agree that this question has been overtaken by events. Our pre-budget seminar answered that adequately. Up to September, $2, 79 billion in revenue has been collected and I think there was also focus which we gave in detail. I am sure that the hon. member would excuse me from repeating what we were saying over the weekend.


28. MR. CROSS asked the Minister of Finance and Economic Planning to explain to the House whether the Government will be able to meet its essential obligations from these revenues.

THE MINISTER OF FINANCE AND ECONOMIC PLANNING (MR. CHINAMASA): These are matters which will be dealt with in the Budget. Basically, we have obligations, international obligations and the budget will handle and address those issues. If at any stage, after presentation of the Budget, the hon. member feels that there are some obligations which have not been addressed, he can then raise his concerns at the appropriate time.


4. MS. D. SIBANDA asked the Minister of Public Service, Labour and Social Welfare to explain why the Registrar General, Mr. Tobaiwa Mudede and the Chairman of Civil Service Commission, Dr. Mariyawanda Nzuwah are still in the employment of the State after they reached their retirement age.

THE MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE, LABOUR AND SOCIAL WELFARE (MR. GOCHE): Mr. Speaker Sir, His Excellency the President is empowered in terms of Section 202 of the Constitution of Zimbabwe (Amendment No.20) to appoint members to the Civil Service Commission. Section 202 states that:

1. There is a Civil Service Commission consisting of;

a. A Chairperson and Deputy Chairperson, and

b. A minimum of two and a maximum of five other members appointed by the President.

Section 320 (2) of the same Constitution provides that members of

commissions other than independent commissions, hold office at the pleasure of the President. Section 199 (2) (c) and (e) states that members of the commission established by this Constitution are not part of the Civil Service. Accordingly, their tenure of office is not governed by the Civil Service Regulations.

Accordingly, their tenure of office is not governed by the Civil Service Regulations. On the Registrar General, Mr. Tobaiwa Mudede, the Public Service Act, Section 21 provides that the Commission may engage persons on contract and on conditions as may be fixed by the Commission. Where a member has reached pensionable age, they are engaged on those contracts.

In terms of the same regulations, the Civil Service Commission has appointed several persons, most of them teachers who have reached pensionable age on annually renewable contracts.

The hon. member may wish to know that sixty-five years, according to the Public Service Regulations is pensionable age and not retirement age.


6. MS. MAHIYA asked the Minister of Transport and Infrastructural Development why it has taken too long for the Government to construct roads in Mashame, Gandavaroyi and Nyaurungwe in Gokwe Gumunyu Constituency.

THE MINISTER OF TRANSPORT AND INFRASTRUCTURAL DEVELOPMENT (DR. O. MPOFU): Mr. Speaker Sir, the state roads that pass through Mashame, Gandavaroyi and Nyaurungwe in Gokwe Gumunyu Constituency are:

Choda-Musamba-Karuma, 80 km of gravel road;

Alaska-Copper Queen earth road, 76 km long; and

Empress-Masoro-Copper Queen, 88 km of gravel road.

Choda-Musamba-Karuma and Empress-Masoro-Copper Queen roads were last regraded in 2008 while Alaska-Copper Queen road was regraded and spot gravelled in 2010. The Ministry has not been able to work on the said roads since then as Treasury has not been able to avail resources for those roads.

The non state roads in the constituency fall under the responsibility of the District Development Fund and the Rural District Councils which are not under my ministry's purview. However, as I indicated earlier on Mr. Speaker Sir, we are distributing road equipment to all local authorities to deal with the issues of upgrading these roads. I thank you Mr. Speaker.


7. MR. GONESE asked the Minister of Transport and Infrastructural Development to inform and explain to the House:

(i) The Contractor responsible for the Christmas Pass Sector of the Plumtree-Mutare road, and

(ii) Why there is very little progress being made to complete the project and why the quality of the supposedly finished sections of the road appear to be substandard.

THE MINISTER OF TRANSPORT AND INFRASTRUCTURAL DEVELOPMENT (DR. O.MPOFU): Thank you Mr. Speaker Sir. The contractor responsible for the rehabilitation of the road from Plumtree-Bulawayo, Harare-Mutare to Forbes Border post and inclusive of the Christmas Pass section is Group five (G5).

The contractor started work from Plumtree to Bulawayo which is complete and has now expanded the works to cover the worst sections between Bulawayo and Harare as well as Harare to Mutare Forbes Border post, which includes the Christmas Pass road section.

Work on the Plumtree to Mutare road has slowed down of late due to non-disbursement of funds by the funders. I dispatched my Permanent Secretary and the ZINARA management to resolve the issue with the DBSA last week and I am assured that disbursement will resume as soon as the administrative hitches affecting progress have been attended to.

My ministry, Mr. Speaker Sir, through the Department of Roads, ZINARA, Group Five and Consultants was established to carry out inspections of the completed sections of the road identifying all defects for the contractor to rectify before handover. The section that the hon. member refers to has not yet been inspected and certified. However, I can assure the hon. member that if any portion of the road is found to be substandard, the Government will demand that it be rectified to our expectations before we take over that section. However, due to increasing concerns by the public, the ministry is taking measures to increase its presence and oversight through regular meetings with the parties involved. I have scheduled a meeting to personally go and inspect this particular part of the road which has raised a lot of attention. I thank you Mr. Speaker.


8. MR. GONESE asked the Minister of Transport and Infrastructural Development to what policy intervention the Government has to rehabilitate the National Railways of Zimbabwe to a viable entity.

THE MINISTER OF TRANSPORT AND INFRASTRUCTURAL DEVELOPMENT (DR. O. MPOFU): Thank you Mr. Speaker Sir. I acknowledge the fact that the National Railways of Zimbabwe (NRZ) has, over the last decade, been facing serious operational challenges. The reasons for these challenges include the following:

1. Locomotives

Most of them have surpassed their design life, which means they

are old and very expensive to maintain.

2. Wagons

Most wagons have also passed their design life, and as well,

require a lot of maintenance, hence are proving very costly to sustain.

3. Infrastructure

The track has too many cautions or speed restrictions due to

deferred maintenance while the signalling and telecommunications systems have been severely vandalised and need to be replaced.

My ministry is concerned with the current state of the NRZ, hence I have engaged the board, management and worker representatives to map the way forward. From the consultations we have made so far, it is clear that the key policy intervention needed is provision of funding for purposes of clearing the maintenance backlog of the locomotives and wagons, as well as procuring of some locomotives. Funding is also required for the rehabilitation of track, signalling and telecommunications infrastructure.

We have signed non-disclosure agreements with some financial institutions that have shown interest in funding some of our projects. I am therefore, not able to disclose at this stage, the details of the work in progress. However, I still have to come through this august House in order to seek approvals for the loans I am currently pursuing to be secured.

Mr. Speaker Sir, based on the due diligence completed this year, it has been established that more than US$450 million is required for the initial phase of the revival programme for the NRZ. Thereafter, the entity will be able to recapitalise through resources generated from its own operations. I seek hon. members' cooperation in dealing with this very challenging assignment. I thank you Mr. Speaker.

MS. D SIBANDA: I have a supplementary question. It is on record that NRZ employees have not received their salaries for the past seven months. When is the Government intending to settle that salaries debt?

DR. O. MPOFU: Thank you Mr. Speaker. With respect to my colleague hon. member, that question does not seem to arise from the issues that I have responded to. I could answer it fully if she allowed me to look into it and perhaps come back with the details and statistics of what we are talking about.

MR. MADZIMURE: Thank you Mr. Speaker. Minister, at one time, the national railways had been electrified from Dabuka to Harare, which had actually caused some of the locomotives to be retired or concentrating on shorter routes. In your feasibility study, are you contemplating reintroducing the system which requires electrification of the railway line and what also happened to that line we had; the copper wires that we had which were removed?

THE MINISTER OF TRANSPORT AND INFRASTRUCTURAL DEVELOPMENT (DR. O. MPOFU): I think I would have responded to the hon. member in the same manner the previous question was answered. I have said in my presentation that the railway infrastructure has almost collapsed and these initiatives seek to address the entirety of the refurbishment of the signals, electrification and even the tracks themselves, they are part of this programme to rehabilitate the National Railways of Zimbabwe. Like I said, it is going to be a mammoth project which requires cooperation from all concerned and I am seeking cooperation from colleagues here to address this matter.

As you know, National Railways used to employ 25 000 people. It drove the Bulawayo economy and the national economy. 15 000 people are out of that institution's employment, we are left with 6 000. With those 6 000, the board wants to retrench a further 4 000 which I have stopped. We are working on measures to deal with National Railways issues once and for all.

MRS. CHIMENE: Mr. Speaker Sir, my supplementary question to the Minister is; we have understood everything he has said here. Is it possible to improve the conditions of National Railways or the road infrastructure state with the prevailing situation we have under sanctions?

THE MINISTER OF TRANSPORT AND INFRASTRUCTURAL DEVELOPMENT (DR. O. MPOFU): Thank you Mr. Speaker. I thank the hon. member for recognising the challenges that we are facing in addressing some of the serious projects that the country wants to embark upon. We are doing all these initiatives knowing very well that we are under very difficult conditions.

We are negotiating with friends who are aware of our economic situation which has been caused by these measures that have been referred to by colleagues. So I just want to assure you that with or without those restrictive measures, we are going to forge ahead with the rehabilitation of our road/railway infrastructure.


9. MR. M. MPOFU asked the Minister of Transport and Infrastructural Development to explain to the House whether there are plans in place to expeditiously revive programmes whose progress has been static over the years such as;

a) completion of Nkayi to Kwekwe road which was last worked on in 2006;

b) Maboleni-Cross Roads Business Centre Road which was last done in 1998;

c) Gweru-Silobela which was worked on before independence.

THE MINISTER OF TRANSPORT AND INFRASTRUCTURAL DEVELOPMENT (DR. O. MPOFU): Mr. Speaker Sir, the construction programme of Nkayi-Kwekwe, Moboleni Cross Roads and Gweru-Silobela was stalled due to unavailability of funds for the projects. The construction programme of these roads will continue as soon as funding for the continuation of these projects is availed by Treasury.

My Ministry has been carrying out road regrading of all gravel roads including all the three projects mentioned above to improve on the ridebility of all gravel roads from year 2010 and 2012. But, for the information of this august House; we are going to be putting some public bids for all the roads including all the roads that my colleagues have mentioned.

We are inviting the public or investors to indicate those that they are keen to develop. This is going to be put in the public domain through the newspapers, radio, television and what have you. So hon. members if you have got potential investors that would want to be part of that initiative please let us do so. We have included all the roads that hon. members have pointed out in their deliberations. Again, this is another challenging initiative which needs a joint approach in a manner that is sustainable.


10. MR. MADUBEKO asked the Minister of Transport and Infrastructural Development to explain to the House when the Ministry intends to complete the Lower Gweru road which was started in 1998.

THE MINISTER OF TRANSPORT AND INFRASTRUCTURAL DEVELOPMENT (DR. O. MPOFU): The hon. member's question on Lower Gweru road is covered in the answer to Hon. M. Mpofu's question.

My Ministry has the technical capacity to rehabilitate and regravel all roads under our purview. However, the real challenge we face which affects the road the hon. member has referred to and others, is that of funding. Still on funding, I said earlier on that we have some heavy road equipment which we will be donating to rural councils to address some of these immediate challenges. The exercise is ongoing; we will be collaborating with the local authorities in developing our rural road network.


14. MR. MARIDADI asked the Minister of Justice, Legal and Parliamentary Affairs to state when the Criminal Procedure and Evidence Act will be amended to ensure that suspects and accused persons, that is, defendants in criminal proceedings are accorded the rights to which they are entitled under Sections 50 and 70 of the new Constitution.

THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE, LEGAL AND PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (MR. CHASI): Thank you Mr. Speaker. There are a number of conceptual and I think legal problems that arise from the question that has been raised by the hon. member. As he correctly states in the question, the Constitution gives certain entitlements to defendants in criminal proceedings. Whether or not the relevant pieces of legislation have actually been amended does not affect the existence of those rights that as he correctly said are entitlements to the defendants.

Mr. Speaker Sir, to deal with the question that he asked as to when the Criminal Procedure and Evidence Act will be amended. I would like to refer to the processes which legislation goes through. I wish to say that we are already engaged as a Ministry in looking at all the statutes and they are hundreds and hundreds of them. We are looking at them in terms of priority, in respect of which ones have an immediate bearing on the Constitution. As an example, you will have an Act that is entitled the Bees Act; we will not give that Act priority in terms of looking at how the Constitution impacts on it. We will certainly give priority to the legislation that he has referred to here. Our officials are actively engaged as I speak on the amendments.

However, the timeframe for amendment and the actual legal Act of amendment does not take place in the Ministry of Justice; it is the responsibility of this august House. The amendments, when they are ready will go to the Cabinet Committee on legislation; they will come here to the Legal Committee to assess their compliance with the Constitution. Hon. members will have an opportunity to debate those amendments. In short, I am not able to say precisely when the amendments will take place.

MR. CHIKWINYA: Mr. Speaker, once rights are enshrined in a constitution they become justifiable. I agree with the Minister in his response but the danger is exposing our citizens to a Bill of Rights which is justifiable. However, giving the same Ministry time to come up with statutes for implementation, I thought the Ministry can have intervention measures where citizens can begin to enjoy the very same rights as enshrined in our Constitution. What does a citizen do today for them to enjoy their rights as enshrined in the Constitution?

MR. CHASI: Thank you Mr. Speaker, I will just repeat myself to enable clarity of the situation. The rights are in existence and anybody that is in a court who would like to enforce those rights can have recourse to the Constitution. That is the basic matter that I am saying.


15. MS. ZINDI asked the Minister of Home Affairs to give this House statistics regarding fatal accidents that occur as a result of other motorists ramming behind stationary broken down haulage trucks or fuel tankers from 2009 to date.

THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS (MR. ZIYAMBI): Thank you Mr. Speaker Sir. I would like to thank the hon. member for the question. The question is important, looking at the number of accidents that have occurred, especially the Chisumbanje one where a lorry side-swiped a tanker. What we have done is we have collated statistics of accidents of the nature referred to by the hon. member. I regret to advise that statistics for year 2011 and 2012 are still coming in. We have to get those statistics from another ministry, from central computing services.

In 2009, we had 31 accidents that involved stationary lorries and 64 people died as a result of those accidents and 129 injured. In 2010, we had 13 accidents and 38 people were killed and 101 injured. This year, we had 8 accidents, 23 people killed and 25 injured. I would like to say some of her concerns have been answered by Minister Mpofu that we need to improve our road networks. The Ministry of Transport is making every effort to ensure that our roads are widened. The major problem with these accidents is because of narrow roads and especially at night, our roads become very dangerous because you will not notice a broken down lorry in the middle of the road which is also very narrow, and there is no place to maneuver.

Mr. Speaker Sir, some of her concerns will be answered by the Ministry of Transport if they make all the necessary effort to improve our roads. I thank you.

MS. ZINDI: Thank you Mr. Speaker. I seek guidance from you Mr. Speaker, since the Minister has said more statistics are still being gathered, therefore it means my question will not fall off the Order Paper until the other statistics for the two years have come and presented to the House.

MR. SPEAKER: Hon. Minister, do you make the commitment for a full answer.

THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS (MR. ZIYAMBI): Thank you Mr. Speaker Sir, we are committed to providing the statistics for 2011 and 2012. However, I believe that the question was leading to what needs to be done regarding these types of accidents of motorists ramming behind stationary broken down vehicles. Statistics alone without a further action will not help us. I can come with statistics but I believe that a further explanation like what we have tried to do to indicate the number of the accidents, the number of people who died and who have been injured and what needs to be done would be helpful to this House and to the nation. However, we are committed to getting these statistics and present them to the House if need be.

MR. NDUNA: I would want to also bring up a supplementary question to the Deputy Minister of Home Affairs; the issue of tractors on our roads. Would it not be prudent to make sure that we banish their mobility on our roads especially the main roads after 5 o'clock p.m. and before 6 o'clock a.m.?

MR. ZIYAMBI: The question is well noted and a response regarding what he is requesting will be given to him in due course.

MR. SPEAKER: Hon. Zindi, you appeared to be shaking your head. Accordingly, I shall direct that the minister brings forward updated statistics as requested by your question and that the question shall be on the next Order Paper.

MS. ZINDI: Thank you Mr. Speaker. In fact, there is a reason, maybe I can give further explanation. There is a particular reason why I have put this question on the Order Paper, particularly for those vehicles which are involved in accidents ramming behind stationary broken down vehicles. There is a particular reason and this is why I am insisting on those statistics, thank you Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Appreciated.


18. MR. M. M. MPOFU asked the Minister of Mines and Mining Development why Malgreen Gold Mine co-owned by Mwana Africa and Pan Africa Mining Resources continues to lie idle after its operations displaced the local people when they were hurriedly displaced despite the fact that the mine has complete structures.

THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF MINES AND MINING DEVELOPMENT (MR. F. MOYO): Thank you Mr. Speaker. Question No. 18 relates to a mine in Silobela, Malgreen. The mine operated for a long time as an open cast mine. The resources got exhausted and the owners of the mine had to explore underground potential in order to continue with operations. There are a lot of mines that have worked and stopped under similar circumstances. I assume that the owners are not able to carry out exploration work to transfer work into underground operations.

It is, however, Government policy which is being pursued at the moment to make sure that priority is given to those mines that are currently mothballed so that they are opened and hence create employment.


19. MR. M. M. MPOFU asked the Minister of Mines and Mining Development to explain what action would be taken against Mwana Africa Mining Company which pegged 75% claims of Silobela Constituency but has dismally failed to work on them.

THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF MINES AND MINING DEVELOPMENT (MR. F. MOYO): Thank you Mr. Speaker. I see the percentage of 75% of Silobela Constituency claims. 75% as a percentage does not quite indicate the number of claims that are at play. The future of any mining operation is secured on the back of claims that are held in anticipation of future requirements.

I just want to say that the country, on average has got up to ten thousand claims that are held by various claim owners and those in use are less than a thousand. So, that indicates the kind of ownership that is vested in claims in anticipation. I would also like to add that we are carrying out an exercise at the moment, province by province to see how many claims are not being used and then seek explanation from holders of those claims and try to decide on how to get them released so that new players who do not have claims can also access them. In other words, we have to try and enforce the 'use it or lose it' principle.


20. MR. M. M. MPOFU asked the Minister of Mines and Mining Development to explain the Ministry's policy regarding claims that continue to lie idle when the locals who can take advantage and empower themselves by conducting mining activities continue to suffer.

THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF MINES AND MINING DEVELOPMENT (MR. F. MOYO): Thank you Mr. Speaker, I have already commented on the numbers at play of claims held versus claims that are being used.

We intend to engage all claim holders particularly the big mines, to try and create a situation where they release claims that they are not using to small scale miners, to individual small players as well as to communities and allow these small players to tribute the claims that belong to the big mines. Small players only tend to work claims that are, from the surface to maybe 40 to 50 meters below ground. So, their use through tributes of claims that belong to big companies does not in any way prejudice the operations of big companies in the future.

The big companies tend to work these claims up to a kilometer or two kilometers into the ground. So, we believe that there is reason for people to co-exist and this exercise is underway. We hope that in the new year, a lot of claims are going to be released to syndicates of small operators who will be supervised by the ministry together with the big mines that own these claims and the programme will definitely take off.

MS. ZINDI: I just want the minister to explain the policy position that continues to criminalise small scale miners or the so-called 'Makorokoza' in which his ministry, as he explains his policy position, that they would want to make sure that the big mining companies holding onto claims should release them. It means recognition but we still continue to criminalise them and send police with dogs and what have you after the Makorokozas or small scale miners. Thank you.

MR. F. MOYO: Thank you Mr. Speaker. The ministry's policy at the moment is to move as quickly as possible and decriminalise small scale miners or Makorokozas. The reason why they are criminalised at the moment is that they are working claims that do not belong to them. So, they do not have legal paperwork that allows them to work these claims. Also, they are not able to bring the gold that they would have mined because you only remit gold on the back of a piece of ground that you own. If you do not own a piece of ground, the gold that you are holding is being held illegally. So, that is the challenge why the Makorokozas then have problems with the police and the law.

We would like, as I said, to create an environment where claims are released to them through tributes. In other words, the big mines allow them to operate these claims; they pay a small amount of money to the owner of the claim. They then do not have to pay the five thousand dollars to the Ministry of Environment, Water and Climate Change as well as to the Ministry of Mines and Mining Development. They can then be able to trade their gold into official coffers.

We however have to change the Mines and Minerals Act sections that relate to giving them claims without paying for them. This change of our laws will be brought before Cabinet and this House as quickly as possible. Our target is that this should in fact be in place latest end of January 2014. That is the target we have given ourselves.

Questions With Notice were interrupted by MR. SPEAKER in terms of Standing Order Number 34.



MS. KHUPE : I move the motion standing in my name that this House:

ALARMED by the number of women informal traders in Zimbabwe;

CONCERNED by the lack of empowerment of women regardless of the establishment of flea markets in Zimbabwe;

ALSO CONCERNED by the levels of poverty regardless of empowerment programmes put in place by Government and NGOs, such as flea markets;

DEEPLY SADDENED by lack of financial literacy programmes by Government and NGOs targeted at women in the retail trade;

DEEPLY WORRIED by the attitudes towards women informal entrepreneurs by financial institutions;

NOW THEREFORE calls for the establishment of a Women's Bank that will not require collateral.

MS. D. SIBANDA : I second.

MS. KHUPE : Two weeks ago, l gave notice to a motion where I alluded to the fact that I was alarmed by the number of women informal traders in Zimbabwe. Mr. Speaker Sir, women constitute more than 52% of the population in our country. Women contribute more than 80% to the GDP in Zimbabwe. Half of the food consumed in Zimbabwe comes from a woman's hand. Women work ten times harder than men. Women are creators of wealth, and yet women still do not have the full enjoyment of their rights and freedoms.

According to the FINSCORP survey of 2012, 5.7 million people in Zimbabwe are working in the informal sector in an adult population of 6 million - meaning that every person who is above 18 years is in the informal sector. Out of that figure, more than 70% of those people are women. If you look at 2008 when things were really bad, the women of Zimbabwe remained steadfast, holding the fort. They are the ones who traversed the borders to go and buy food. They are the ones who crossed the borders to go and buy literally everything that was not available in this country, regardless of the conditions they were going through at those borders.

It is high time that we thank the women of Zimbabwe in a big way. I would like the women of Zimbabwe to be thanked in a big way by making sure that we formalise the informal sector. Informalisation does not facilitate capital accumulation. Right now, women are going to Mozambique to buy bales. This woman takes her US$200 and she goes to Mozambique to buy a bale of clothes. She comes back and sells those clothes to Zimbabweans. She collects money from Zimbabweans and then takes that money again to Mozambique. She leaves that money there. She brings this bale and collects money from Zimbabweans. This is happening everywhere. Some women are taking money to Botswana, South Africa and all over the shore. This does not create new money. All they are doing is that they are taking money out of the country and we are not producing anything so that we export and bring in new money into this country.

In 2011, the Inclusive Government promulgated the Small and Medium Enterprises Act, Chapter 24:12 and this Act seeks to coordinate resource mobilisation strategies. Again, it seeks to promote formalisation and graduation of the informal sector to formal. It also promotes the graduation of micro to small, small to medium and medium to large enterprises. This is exactly what is needed in this country. We want the informal sector to graduate from small to big enterprises. By so doing, employment is going to be created and produce more products and export them to other countries.

The Minister of Finance told us in Victoria Falls recently that people are importing goods to the tune of US$7bn and yet we are only exporting goods to a tune of US$2bn. There is a serious mismatch. Instead of us producing products and selling to other countries, we are busy kiya kiyaring. At the moment, you will find that in Zimbabwe everybody is kiya kiyaring. They are doing it for survival purposes. I do not think we can run a country where everbody is kiya kiyaring.

The women's bank will transform the lives of many people because if women have money, their families will flourish. If their families flourish, the nation flourishes too. There is not even a single person who was born poor. Every person was born with their own potential. People are poor because of the institutions that we build. People are poor because of the systems that we create. People are poor because of the policies that we formulate.

If Government was to build good institutions and create good policies, every person will be able to explore their potential. I am very confident that the women's bank is one institution that will ensure that women are able to explore their potential. Women will have access to capital through the women's bank. The predicament that is faced by women at the present moment is that financial institutions are not friendly to women. They say women are not credit-worthy. When women go into the banks to borrow money, they are told, "we want collateral", which they know that the women do not have. They are told to bring their husbands and how about those who do not have husbands -[Laughter] - myself included.

The women are getting a lot of problems from these banks. The conditions are too many and very complicated. The fact that women are able to work for 8 hours per day should constitute collateral. Like I said earlier on, women work ten times harder than men. Statistics have shown that if you lend money to a woman, she will work very hard to produce more and generate interest and pay back that money. Women have a lot of money that they keep under their pillows. Mark my words! No woman would go and bank their money with any bank - a bank that is not willing to lend them money. With a women's bank, women will be given first class treatment. The women's bank will ensure that there are special interest rates for women. The women's bank will consider a reasonable grace period and repayment period so that they are longer.

Right now, you walk into a bank to borrow money in order to run a business, for example, if you borrow US$100 000 you are told that you are supposed to pay back the money at the end of the month and you are only given 90 days to pay back that money. Honestly, how do you generate interest in one month? How do you generate interest in 3 months? These are some of the conditions that are supposed to be looked into. The women's bank will use financial literacy as collateral. They will have to undergo a one day financial literacy course. After that, they will be given money Mr. Speaker Sir.

What we must understand is that before borrowing money, you must have a plan. What is happening currently is that, people just walk into a bank and they borrow money without a plan. At the end of the day, they are unable to pay back that money because they took money without a plan. They start doing so many things that are not planned for. After having a plan, then you can borrow money and spend it based on the plan. Afterwards, you are guaranteed of generating interest. You can then save money and re-invest it so that you grow your business. This is exactly what the women's bank is going to be doing and this is what the women will do.

Mr. Speaker Sir, I am further concerned by the poverty levels, regardless of empowerment programmes. The MDG status report of 2010 has indicated that, it is almost impossible for us as a country to alleviate poverty by 2015, in line with MDG number one, which is that of reducing hunger and poverty. They have said it is almost impossible to achieve MDG goal number 3, which is that of gender equality and women's economic empowerment. This is precisely where my concerns are coming from. We can only reduce poverty and hunger when women have access to capital so that they are able to grow their businesses.

This is the reason why I am saying, we want a women's bank to enable women to have access to resources so that they grow their businesses from micro, which is from small to medium; and from medium to larger institutions. Mr. Speaker Sir, I have a dream. My dream is to formalise the informal sector. My dream is to see a diversified economy. In the 1980s, we used to have a diversified economy. Our industry consisted of 1 260 separate entities producing 7 000 different products. This diversification broadened our export base. You will find that agriculture accounted for 41% of our export earnings. Manufacturing was the second, it accounted for 32% and mining accounted for 27% of our export earnings.

My dream, Mr. Speaker Sir, is to see economic progression. This can only be achieved if we change our mindset. It is high time we graduate from informal to formal. The medium term plan of 2011 -2015's vision must always be remembered. It is that of growing and transforming a globally competitive economy with the core objectives of poverty reduction, job creation, equity and sustainable economic development. As I said earlier on, an economy where everybody is kiya-kiyaring will not take us anywhere. It is in fact, a recipe for entrenching poverty.

The Grameen Bank of Bangladesh has transformed the lives of many women. Mr. Speaker Sir, development is about copying from other people and it is about discovery. Development is not rocket science where you are supposed to re-invent something. So, why are we not learning from countries like Bangladesh? Why are we not discovering how the Grameen Bank transforms the lives of women? Right now Grameen Bank is sitting on a cool US$8 billion and this money is from women's savings.

The Zimbabwe Women's Bank, has the capacity of generating more than that. This poverty we are talking about, is going to be a thing of the past if we establish this women's bank. I would like to urge all hon. members to support the establishment of a stand-alone Zimbabwean Women's Bank. In conclusion, life is good, but life is only good if you have money in your pocket. You will not go to borrow money from chimbadzo when there is death in the family, sickness, and when you want to pay school fees for your children or if you want to do anything, money speaks Mr. Speaker Sir. The Zimbabwe Women's Bank will ensure that women have money in their pockets. Once they have money, their families will flourish. If their families flourish Mr. Speaker Sir, the nation is going to flourish too. I rest my case.

MS. MAJOME: Thank you Mr. Speaker Sir. I rise to debate in support of this noble and bold motion. This motion seeks to do things differently in the way that we handle our finances and our economy in this beloved country of ours. It is not a secret that the share of the economy of Zimbabwe in the hands of women, is embarrassingly and scandalously small. We are a nation that is very much committed to redressing inequalities as well as unfairness. I say this because, we have been very good at propounding parries, programmes, policies and proposals to undo imbalance in the welfare of our citizens.

We have been particularly vocal, for example, about the indigenisation policy. Mr. Speaker Sir, I want to argue and debate before this august House today that, indeed if the struggle for economic equity should become possible, if we are a country that agrees that economic

inequity, fairness and imbalance must be corrected, we must therefore be louder in our voices at campaigning for, and demanding economic equity along gender lines because it is not a secret. Our censuses successively show that in this country, women comprise an overwhelming majority of the population. We are not less than 52%. But, as I indicated earlier Mr. Speaker Sir, when we look at the extent or the proportion of the economy in women's hands, it is totally disproportionate.

There is grave injustice in gender inequity in the holding of the economy than along racial lines, class and along any other lines. In other words, this motion that has been raised seeks to address that very silent injustice that we seem to unfortunately have embraced, and seen nothing wrong with it. If we can feel moved by the need to address disparities and proportions of 51% et cetera in indigenisation, we must indeed be alive and sensitive to the need, to take drastic measures as a nation, and take radical positions to address the underlying disparities. We must take the more fundamental, over reaching and more drastic disparities.

I want to say this Mr. Speaker Sir, that as long as we do not address the sordid reality that women are poor, we can devise as many economic Blue Prints as we wish. We can do Zimbabwe Assets, Medium Term Plans, STERPs and all sorts of things, but as long as we do not live up to the reality that the majority of our poor are women and that there is no money in the hands of women, we will not make any impact in these wonderful and fabulous policies.

Mr. Speaker Sir, the World Bank itself has, in various papers, found it necessary and wise to admit that gender sensitive economics is smart economics. That is in other words, economic measures that deal with the reality of women's poverty and seek to address it and end it. It is smart economics because that is when we will start to unlock the lipidem of poverty.

In 1995, the United Nations held the Fifth World Conference on Women and there were 12 critical areas of concern at this Conference. That is, members of the United Nations all over the world concentrated their minds on in order to remove the gender inequality and therefore, the suffering of women and men. Mr. Speaker Sir, one of these 12 critical areas of concern was what is called the feminisation of poverty. That is the sad realisation that poverty wears out a woman's face.

If we look at any economic variables or any measurements, we will still find women dominating at the wrong end. In any employment, well, Zimbabwe has a very low employment rate but if we look at even that small 15% of the population that is employed, we will find that women are less than possibly 40% of those that are employed. Mr. Speaker,that is why women, although they are locked out of the employment sector, they still must earn a living. They must still survive and it is a gender reality that they look after almost everybody in society. They look after children, men, their parents and so on. Although they do not get recognized in the formal economy, they have to deal with the reality of looking after their families.

I want Mr. Speaker, at this point in time, to pay tribute and salute the women of Zimbabwe because they are grossly underrepresented in the employment statistics. Also, even in the general business statistics and in the indices, we do not find our women resorting to crime. If you look at the statistics of crime in Zimbabwe, we will find that alas Mr. Speaker, they are dominated in their ranks by men. I want to salute the women of Zimbabwe for being resourceful and in seeking to earn honest living for their families. But where do they go? They therefore go to the informal sector where they work very hard day and night under very hard and hazardous conditions that have no security whatsoever.

I want to believe that every hon. member in this House, in each of their constituencies, is familiar with a sight that we see absolutely every day. If it is in urban areas, at every street corner now because of the growth of the informal sector, along streets, there is a woman somewhere with a table of tomatoes, sweets or whatever it is that she is trying to sell. If it is in the rural areas, it is the same thing. We have women who will have gone to the growth points and they are trying very hard to find something to sell in order to generate the very elusive dollar.

Mr. Speaker Sir, these women are indeed the ones that are the informal sector and we must ask ourselves in our collective national conscience that are we happy as a nation? Do we sleep well at night each and every day to continue just walking past those women going by our daily businesses? Then, we come here to this august House to pass legislation that would benefit what may be called big business which clearly excludes any of those women, yet they are the majority of the population and they are the ones that are really suffering.

Mr. Speaker Sir, I want to submit before this august House that this motion that it is called upon to deliberate is a motion that seeks to question the way we generally do things and to challenge us to try and find alternatives and different ways of doing things. It cannot be business as usual to continue regulating, organizing and structuring a banking sector that goes along the usual traditional lines that favours those that are privileged and endowed and that leaves out women. That is why this august House is challenging each and every hon. member of this House to think seriously about those faces that we see every day. The faces that are trying to eke out a living and develop I pass a resolution on the motion here to ask us to think outside the box and to think along developing a banking model that is outside the usual and that goes out of the restrictive collateral.

Mr. Speaker Sir, this insistence of commerce and industry as it is in the conventional insistence on collateral will forever lock out vulnerable and marginalised groups such as women. They are condemned forever to sell those little tomatoes and sweets that they sell because it points to a vicious cycle. The reason why women in the informal sector cannot proffer collateral in the form of title deeds to some houses and so on is because they are poor. They cannot generate the money required for them to go and buy some real estate because, they do not have those title deeds. They cannot go and borrow and because they cannot borrow, they cannot generate capital for their businesses to grow and so on.

Mr. Speaker Sir, this motion asks this august House and each and every hon. member here to stop and break this vicious cycle. Let us think out of the box. Let us create a banking and economic model that gives access to credit to these particular women.

Mr. Speaker Sir, in seeking support for this motion, reliance is not placed only on the need of justice which is important, but also, on scientific facts and hard evidence that has investigated the behaviour of women on one hand and men on the other hand when they have money in their hands. Social scientists and economic researchers have found out that women behave differently when they have a dollar in their hand. Women are likely to use that dollar and they make it grow further. A dollar in the hands of a woman, if it was that old Zimbabwe Dollar coin, it would grow much further than a dollar in the hands of a man.

Mr. Speaker Sir, it has also been found that a woman who has borrowed money, in many instances, the incidence of women repaying back loans is much higher. This is the reason why models like the Grameen Bank in Bangladesh have succeeded. Statistics have shown that the repayment rates by women who borrow are so much high and more encouraging than that of men. Therefore, it stands to reason that developing and introducing a banking model that relies on that trait that women have been found to repay. Women are less in the ranks of those who are of criminal behaviour and of crimes of dishonesty. Women are more honest. They are unlikely to engage in nefarious activities. I am not saying that women do not do that but statistically speaking; women have shown that they are more trustworthy. They can be trusted with money even where there is no collateral.

Mr. Speaker Sir, we have already gone some way in our country to address this. In the previous budget cycle, there were monies that were advanced to women by way of women's empowerment fund that also did not rely on collateral in the traditional sense. But, that relied on women themselves and their word being used as a bond in groups where they would themselves agree and bind each other and commit themselves as sureties to ensure that each of them in the group scheme lends money. I was informed Mr. Speaker Sir that the level of repayment was very encouraging.

Mr. Speaker Sir, I also want to ask members of this august House to think seriously about this very different way of doing things to remember that in the very dark years of our country, 2007 and 2008 when there was phenomenal economical hardship, everybody was hungry. The hon. members in this House must remember that it was the women of this country and those very women in that informal sector who kept this country alive. Those women literally carried Zimbabwe on their backs and on their heads in the informal trade, getting on to buses to go to Botswana and South Africa, buying all sorts of things and they brought all the things that were required. Mr. Speaker Sir, the women of this country would spend hours at the border, sleeping there, waiting in queues. They have virtually even supplied the wholesale sector and supplied all the goods that were here at a time when the so called big businesses, that are favoured when loans are given in banks; were not comfortable to be having the humility to get in a bus and sleep the whole night travelling and not knowing where one went.

Mr. Speaker Sir, it is time that this august House remembers those silent and voiceless women of Zimbabwe who kept us alive and kept our country going when nobody else was willing to do so. It is time, Mr. Speaker Sir, to give credit to those who need it and extend our minds in developing a banking model such as a model similar to the ones along the lines of the Grameen Bank, which is working very well in Bangladesh and in other places. That shows that you can do banking very differently but we can do banking in a manner that is accessible to women - that does not require collateral.

While I am on the issue of the economic importance of women, it is sad to note that the economic contributions of these women in the informal sector is not accounted for, when we bring out our statistics on the gross domestic product and so on, but we all know the hours and the value that these women in the informal sector have. It is time that we pay them back, Mr. Speaker Sir. Another very clear benefit to our fiscus and to our economy, if we do take the bold step of developing a bank that does not require collateral, but that puts in place mechanisms that are women friendly and women- compliant, that will allow women to borrow and bring back money because once we do that, we are actually recognising our informal sector.

We are bringing it into the realm of focus and indeed our national revenue authority will go smiling all the way to the bank because these women will now be visible and we will be able to collect revenue also from them and continue to plough back into the economy. I need not remind hon. members of the dire consequences of continuing to act as if it is business as usual, continuing to work in ways that leave this big proportion of the population away. Keeping them poor and keeping them content and sleeping well at night, knowing that they cannot access loans because they never have collateral.

I want, in particular, to just refer to one very sad statistic that each and every day that we come to this House, at least six women in Zimbabwe die giving birth to children. Why are they dying? They are dying because they cannot afford to pay the little money US$25, US$30 that is required by health providers or by maternity providers for them to deliver. They are dying because they do not have access to money, because they are likely to be in the informal trade. The consequences of not thinking at this level are dire, we will continue to lose women in large numbers, and also indeed babies and our society will continue not to develop.

I want to urge hon. members to embrace gender mainstreaming in the way that will shape our economic institutions, particularly the banking sector. If we mainstream gender into the banking sector, we will find that we will see that men and women borrowers behave differently when they borrow money. They use the money differently and they pay differently and that in particular women borrowers are likely to pay more and collateral might not necessarily be applicable. It is gender insensitive and women are able to borrow without collateral and pay back.

Mr. Speaker Sir, I want to end with a passionate plea to the hon. members of this House. As they think about this motion, they must continue to remember those faceless and nameless women out in their constituencies, selling little tables of tomatoes, little trinkets of this and that. They must do something for those women and think differently and provide a mechanism where we also learn because we are already looking to the East, like in Bangladesh. To learn from the East that women can be trusted with money - to return it if they borrow and that they can borrow without collateral.

In short and at last, I am entreating hon. members to support this motion and dare to do things differently and dare to think differently. By resolving that, we need to develop a banking model and a bank where women subject to appropriate mechanisms in place are able to borrow without collateral. I thank you Mr. Speaker Sir.


Motion put and agreed to.

Debate to resume: Thursday, 7th November, 2013.



THE DEPUTY MINISTER OFJUSTICE, LEGAL AND PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (MR. CHASI): I move that Orders of the Day 2 to 6 be stood over until Order Number 7 has been disposed off.

Motion put and agreed to.



Seventh Order read: Adjourned debate on sanctions imposed on Zimbabwe by the US Government and European Union.

Question again proposed.

MR. SPEAKER: When this debate was interrupted by automatic adjournment of the House, in terms of Standing Order number 22 Sub-Clause 2 on the 16th October, 2013, the question before the House was a motion by Hon. Hlongwane as set forth on pages 92 and 93 of today's Order Paper. In terms of practice, an hon. member who had the floor when the debate was interrupted has a right to continue with his or her debate. Hon. Chikwinya had the floor, and in terms of Standing Order Number 22 Sub-Clause 2 he had five minutes left to conclude his contribution.

MR. CHIKWINYA: Thank you Mr. Speaker, I will try to do justice in the time remaining. When this debate adjourned due to automatic adjournment of the House, my main focus was to enlighten the House why restrictive measures can actually be applied within a member state, between the EU countries and the ACP. I went on to highlight that one of the reasons given was that of violation of human rights. I will just conclude that by quoting the main principles of the COTONOU Agreement are four;

1. The equality of partners and ownership of development strategies.

2. Participation.

3. Dialogue and mutual obligation.

Under dialogue and mutual obligation, I will state, the COTONOU Agreement is not merely a pot of money. The signatories have assumed a mutual obligation that is the respect of human rights, which will be monitored through continuing dialogue and evaluation.

4. Differentiation and regionalisation.

Another aspect of the COTONOU Agreement, Mr. Speaker, in summary is political dimension. I just want to quote the last figure that it was therefore further more agreed that serious cases of corruption, including acts of bribery, could trigger a consultation process and possibly lead to a suspension of aid. I am quoting this so that Members of Parliament can know why Hon. Hlongwane was extensively quoting Article 96 and Article 97 of the COTONOU Agreement.

Article 96 has the measures which are taken by the EU countries in response to the violation of human rights. Article 97 contains the measures taken in response to violation in cases of serious corruption. Let me state to the members in the House that Article 97 has never been used in any country, it remains a theory. Article 96 has been used in four countries so far, which are Chad, Central African Republic, Rwanda and Liberia. Zimbabwe has never suffered restrictive measures as contained in the provisions of Article 96.

I want to move further, Mr. Speaker, now that we are over with the human rights issues, to demonstrate that Zimbabwe is actually trading with the government of Britain. I have a paper from the United Kingdom showing support to Zimbabwe, through the department from a National Development Aid. I will summarise and give the paper to the Hansard officers.

Between 2011 and 2015, the UK government through the Department for International Development (DFID), expects to provide over US$ 700 million development assistance. Their top priorities are strengthening democracy, including constitutional reform and they have already done that through assisting the constitution making process. Results so far are that during the financial year of 2012 to 2013, the DFID office provided approximately US$125 million in support of vulnerable Zimbabweans.

For education, the DFID has so far provided US$36 million to be used over four years. US$24 million has gone to Transitional Fund Phase ETF2. Under the health sector, we have received US$131 million. Under the orphans and vulnerable children, we have received US$20 million so far. The Basic Education Assistance Model (BEAM) has received US$21 million in the year 2012 to 2013. Rural sanitation and hygiene has received US$34 million. I could go further but I will present the paper to the Hansard officers so that members can read for themselves in the Hansard.

I also have a paper here, from the UK office, which states that there are 99 trading lines of credit - [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections]-. Mr. Speaker, we are importing from the UK. In the year 2013 as of August, goods amounting to US$35 million. Exports from Zimbabwe to UK amount to US$14 million, simply because of our incapacity to produce. Chief among the products we are sending to the UK are tobacco, vegetables and non-metallic minerals from manufacturers. I will also present this paper for further scrutiny to members of this House.

Under the United States, Mr. Speaker, and I want to give Members of Parliament the source of the document, which is, which has got trading data. It shows that there are no restrictive measures with regard to trade. Zimbabwe has a trade deficit. The United States has provided over US$1.4 billion in assistance to Zimbabwe since 2001. It has provided US$175 million to fight HIV and AIDS since 2000. In addition, the United States has provided US$61 million in non food humanitarian assistance.

In his response, President Obama committed to the Government of Zimbabwe, to give us text books and to support agricultural activities. This includes inputs, training for farmers and the re-establishment of farm to market linkages. Mr. Speaker, during the period of the Inclusive Government, we saw the maize input which came and was distributed by the Minister of Agriculture, came from the Prime Minister's office in consultation with the United States office. Again I will give this data to the Hansard officers.

Now, Mr. Speaker, I want to come to the issue of corruption, which I have highlighted to these members that -[HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections]-

[Time limit]

MS. D. SIBANDA: Mr. Speaker, I move that the member's time be extended- [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections]-

MR. SPEAKER: Order, order. Hon. Chikwinya -[MRS. CHIKWINYA: Mwana wangu uyu.]-. Mwana wenyu uyu. -[Laughter]-.

MR. CHIKWINYA: Thank you Mr. Speaker. I move over to the issue of corruptionMr. Speaker, the political barometer in any environment is perception, and therefore, on 8th March, 2007, the Parliament of Zimbabwe ratified the UN Convention against crime. We have a plethora of acts which support the Government's commitment against corruption. Zimbabwe ranks 163 out of 176 on the Corruption Perception Index.

There is a certain amount of wealth accrued by certain individuals in this country, which simply goes to support the bad perception which investors have of our country - [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections]-.

MR. SPEAKER: Hon. member order, order. I think you can summarise the ideas only.

MR. CHIKWINYA: Thank you Mr. Speaker. In that case, there was declaration of assets, and this is what I am saying; what goes into the public then informs the perception and therefore consequently informs the perception index of our country. - [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections]-

MR. SPEAKER: Order, order. Hon. member, you should address principles of corruption rather than individual members. You will be out of order and what you have said earlier will be expunged.

MR. CHIKWINYA: Thank you Mr. Speaker Sir. Various vehicles and a number of stands were actually declared. The same thing goes in terms of priority -[HON MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections]-

MR. SPEAKER: Order, point of order Mr. Chikwinya, any handouts from where the hon. member or any other hon. member in future tries to extract information, you can summarise. If you want that information to be circulated, you can do so by putting the information in pigeon holes and not for the Hansard.

MR. CHIKWINYA: Thank you Mr. Speaker. Within the concept of corruption, we have the Anti-corruption Commission which in its own rights attempted to investigate ministers during the Nieebgate Scandal. What then happened is that the same Anti-corruption Commission Officers were the ones arrested. This further entrenches our non-commitment to actually curb corruption. Today the Anti-corruption Commissioners are the ones who are facing trial, but the ministers are going free. One of the ministers had a consulting company which charged $45 million for a consultation process of $10 million, and the minister was here in this august House.

One of the key fundamental issues again under corruption is that we do not have a Whistle Blowers' Act. Whilst one of the principles of the UN Convention Against Corruption is that we must have a Whistle Blowers' Act, this Parliament has not promulgated any Whistle Blowers' Act to protect whistle blowers against powerful politicians who are in the majority of committing crimes.

Mr. Speaker, I want, as I conclude due to time limit, I was going to ask my minister that we have a minister who came to Parliament putting on a size 32 belt. His wealth has actually ballooned in the same size as his waist has ballooned. He can now exchange underwear with Hon. Katsande, Hon. Mahofa, and Mr. Peter Chanetsa. How do you explain that? [HON MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections]-

MR. SPEAKER: Order, order, I think certain allegations demand the right to reply. Hon. Chikwinya should have taken my directive to address the principles and not attack individuals. So, will you... - [HON MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections]- Order, order, Hon. Chikwinya, your time is now up again.

MR. CHIKWINYA: Thank you Mr. Speaker.

MR. MANDIPAKA: Mr. Speaker Sir, I would like to thank you for affording me space and time to further debate on the motion by Hon. Hlongwane. Sanctions must go in the Name of Jesus and that of our forefathers. I admired Hon. Majome when she sympathised with the women's situation in Zimbabwe that of selling tomatoes under trees. I want to believe that she is missing one point that it is all because of sanctions. HON MEMBERS: Hear, hear.

It is my considered view, Mr. Speaker Sir and hon. members in this august House that the motion was moved with some measure of distinction, and eloquence on a matter which like cancer as Hon. Khupe put it, has become a national emergency. I salute Hon. Hlongwane for moving a very topical and sensitive motion that naturally raises emotions. Suffice to say that, imposing sanctions on innocent souls is callous, brutal and outright economic genocide. -[ HON MEMBERS: Hear, hear.]- Mr. Speaker Sir, imposing sanctions should be condemned with the strongest of diction.

It is unfortunate that those, some of whom are our immediate brothers and sisters have chosen to collude with our economic saboteurs to cause us untold suffering for their political expediency. I wish to underscore Mr. Speaker Sir, hon. members, that any denial by whoever, wherever and for whatever motive that illegal sanctions exist and are gnawing at the roots of our existence as Zimbabweans, is treachery and / or deception of the highest magnitude. It is a negation of the trust bestowed upon us by those whom we purport to represent, unless our constituencies are outside our confines.

Those of sound judgement and sober minds will acknowledge that the reality of the existence of illegal and inhuman sanctions imposed on innocent lives - lives of Zimbabweans. Mr. Speaker Sir, my debate on this motion will primarily look at the effects of these sanctions to the economy of this country.

The United States introduced illegal economic sanctions on Zimbabwe through the Zimbabwe Democracy and Economic Recovery Act (ZIDERA) in 2001. The following are some of the reasons that have been used erroneously to justify the sanctions regime in Zimbabwe:

  • Poor human rights

· Land redistribution exercise (which they call White farm invasion)

  • Alleged election fraud

· Destruction of tens of thousands of low income homes through Operation Murambatsvina (clean up)

· Harassment of opposition activists and lately,

· The alleged refusal by President Mugabe and the ruling party ZANU PF to fully implement the provisions of the Global Political Agreement (GPA) which is already history. HON MEMBERS: Hear, hear.

Through this enactment, Zimbabwe's access to finance and credit facilities was effectively incinerated. The Act, among other things, states that, the Government of Zimbabwe has rendered itself ineligible to participate in International Bank for Reconstruction and Development and International Monetary Fund Programmes, which would otherwise be providing substantial resources to assist in the recovery and modernisation of Zimbabwe's economy.

ZIDERA empowers the US to use its voting rights and influence (as the main donor) in multilateral lending agencies such as the IMF, World Bank and the African Development Bank to veto any applications by Zimbabwe for finance, credit facilities, loan rescheduling and international debt cancellation.

The US Government, Mr. Speaker Sir, erroneously cites Zimbabwe's Human Rights record, political intolerance and absence of rule as the main reasons for the imposition of sanctions. Alas! We are alert Mr. Speaker Sir, that the sanctions were illegally imposed as a way to try and pressure Robert Mugabe's regime.

The ZIDERA also suggests if Zimbabwe acts to correct these ills, then the sanctions will be removed and economic support measures are suggested. The consequences of ZIDERA, Mr. Speaker Sir, are:

· In September 1999, the IMF suspended its support for economic adjustment and reform in Zimbabwe.

· In October 1999, the International Development Association (IDA) suspended all structural adjustment loans, credits and guarantees to the Government of Zimbabwe.

· In May 2000, the IDA suspended all other new lending to the Government of Zimbabwe.

It is around these years that we are talking about, Mr. Speaker Sir, that we started to see the emergence of opposition MDC-T. Simply put, owing to the size of the US vote and influence in these institutions, neither the IMF, World Bank nor the African Bank will lend to Zimbabwe or offer it credit facilities. Therefore, needless to say, as a direct result of the US 2001 Act, Zimbabwe's relationship with these multilateral lending agencies was immediately and severely affected.

In addition, Zimbabwe's ability to reschedule its loan payments and to apply for debt cancellation in times of severe financial crisis was severely affected, and once the IMF and World Bank stopped doing business with Zimbabwe; this had an immediate and adverse impact on Zimbabwe's credit and investment rating. With a drop in investment rating, went the dream of low cost capital on the international markets.

It says Zimbabwe firms not connected to Government leaders are free to do business with American firms. At the same time, American firms are free to invest and trade with Zimbabwe as long as they avoid business deals with top ZANU PF officials. In reality however, a number of companies from Zimbabwe, whether or not linked to ZANU PF have been experiencing serious problems in obtaining offshore financing or credit guarantees, just for being Zimbabwean operations - [HON MEMBERS: hear, hear]-

Since the imposition of illegal sanctions against Zimbabwe by the United States and European Union in 2001 and 2002 respectively, the people of this country have seen many problems and endured a lot of suffering. The effects of the sanctions have been understated, and unfortunately, the general economy has been shattered. Sanctions have undermined Zimbabwe's service delivery efforts - [HON MEMBERS: hear, hear] -. The assumption is that the powerful states want to be in control of their former colonies thus maximising their power in decision making in these independent states. Mr. Speaker Sir, I view sanctions as an economic warfare that does not discriminate between the ruling elite and the general populace.

There is a high death toll due to inadequate health facilities, high incidents of school dropouts, high unemployment as factories close, low volumes of international trade, malnourishment and death amongst vulnerable groups of our society. Mr. Speaker Sir, illegal sanctions negatively affect the image of a targeted country through negative perceptions of the international community. Zimbabwean companies are therefore, finding it difficult to access lines of credit because of the perceived country risk. The deteriorating economic situation or condition has led to large scale migration, especially of our skilled manpower.

Sanctions have resulted in starvation of civilians, and one hon. member in this august House was talking about 2, 2 million Zimbabweans facing starvation, and using starvation as a method of warfare is strictly prohibited by international law. The intended blockade is a violation of the Geneva Convention, UN Charter, and Constitution of the World Health Organisation, Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the Charter of Economic Rights and Duties of States.

The intended sanctions on Zimbabwe violate numerous fundamental human rights of the people of Zimbabwe, including our dignity - [HON MEMBERS: hear, hear] - as human beings.

Any country which tries to impose a kind of standards on another in total disregard of the latter's conditions and laws and interferes in its internal affairs, internal politics under whatever pretext will naturally meet opposition or resistance from the vast number of developing countries including Zimbabwe. The affairs of a country should be managed by its own people who have every right to choose their own social system, political leaders and course of development.

Relying purely on barter trade, mining, agricultural concessions, and on export generated foreign currency, Zimbabwe's economy has been slowly but surely asphyxiated. In addition, both the US and the EU have frozen financial and other assets of persons or companies linked to ZANU PF. It is alleged that such companies sustain ZANU PF Government. However, what is often ignored in this race to rid Zimbabwe of its President is that companies operating in Zimbabwe provide a livelihood to thousands of families and contribute to the development of the entire country. Australia is, at one time reported to have denied the Reserve Bank of Zimbabwe officials' business visas to travel whilst the US is putting in place a raft of measures aimed at specified ZANU PF linked individuals, their families and companies. What a shame!

It is apparent therefore, that some of the most powerful countries in the world have put in place measures to bring about the downfall of the President by orchestrating the economic collapse of Zimbabwe. It is wrong to conflate Zimbabwe with the personality of its President. They are two distinct entities. It cannot be right to say that economic support will be provided to the country once its leaders are out of power. It cannot be right Mr. Speaker Sir, to force his downfall by killing off the country's flagging economy, by erasing the gains made after 1980 and worsening the AIDS and unemployment crisis - [HON MEMBERS: hear, hear] -.

Economic warfare against innocent, poor, defenseless, less developed countries results in the cancellation of life supporting projects, humanitarian assistance and infrastructural development support which worsens the plight of the poor. Illegal sanctions have been destructive to our economy since 2002. They have reversed Zimbabwe's ability to built physical infrastructure, to realise its Millennium Development Goals and to provide some basic social needs to its citizenry. What is alarming is that civil society organisations working in cahoots with EU funders have remained silent on the need to call for the removal of these destructive sanctions.

Mr. Speaker Sir, illegal sanctions challenge the national sovereignty of a state, as they paralyse its economy and create animosity within the political system. The whole issue of sanctions is anchored on the belief that the stronger should be free to exercise their strength without moral or legal limitations that protect the poor and the weak. Let us guard against the fatal assertion, that might is always right, as we are alert to the fact that sanctions were imposed at the instigation of some of our people that are politically misguided.

Those championing the imposition of the economic sanctions often retort that, Zimbabwe's ability to borrow from the IMF and the World Bank was restricted in any event because it had fallen foul of its agreement with the IMF. This argument is however, Mr. Speaker Sir, disingenuous, deceitful, insincere, hypocritical and dishonest. It ignores the other more vicious consequences of ZIDERA on the Zimbabwean economy.

In addition, the suggestion that what is in existence is a regime of symbolic travel bans and some asset freezing or restrictive measures is far from the truth where one tries to run away from its shadow. The other wrong suggestion that Zimbabwe's economy is what it is today is because of mismanagement, is misleading if not mischievous by immature minds. What the President has done is to mismanage the endemic crisis caused by the country's inability to access capital, which in turn, are a result of a raft of economic sanctions in place against the country. The fundamental question I would ask Mr. Speaker Sir is, is the US, EU, Australia and opposition forces, any closer to removing the President from power. Because of the economic sanctions in place - [HON. MEMEBERS: Hear, hear] -

Question number two Mr. Speaker Sir, is it not true that economically independent people are more likely to vote or rebel against a bad leader? That is food for thought. Mr. Speaker Sir, at the United Nations, the issue of sanctions has been very divisive as the Security Council permanent members are always divided on the issue. For the past couple of years the US, France and the UK have been on the forefront calling for the imposition of mandatory comprehensive UN sanctions against Zimbabwe. A move that has suffered dismally in the hands of Russia and China, with the support of South Africa who consistently vetoed the successive calls for Zimbabwe sanctions. It is incontrovertible that the crisis caused by sanctions in Zimbabwe has negative ramifications on its neighbours, notably South Africa, where an estimated two to three million Zimbabweans live. The presence of millions of Zimbabweans has resulted in straining of the public service of that country hence the interest of South African Government in seeking a lasting solution.

Mr. Speaker Sir, hon. members the mover of this motion Hon. Hlongwane suggested that this august House should unite to condemn the illegal sanctions and that letters to that effect be written to the EU, US and others in the bracket. I recommend Mr. Speaker Sir, that going forward, all hon. members who form part of this Parliament no matter age, political affiliation, colour, creed, tribe, height, weight, political agenda should - [HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear] - should of necessity, on behalf of those we represent in our various constituencies, prosecute a peaceful demonstration on a selected date, waving placards, and vehemently denounce these illegal sanctions at embassies where we deliver the said letters. Suffice to say Mr. Speaker Sir that sanctions must go. The solution to our crisis is the immediate and unconditional removal of these illegal sanctions.

In conclusion Mr. Speaker Sir, hon. members, allow me to reiterate that illegal sanctions placed our economy under siege with debilitating downstream effects on vulnerable groups, women and children, the mentally and physically challenged, intellectuals the rich and the poor and the general populace. We do not lose sight Mr. Speaker Sir that we have suffered on the economic front because of some of our brothers and sisters in political circles who have chosen to sup with the devil. -[HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.]- it reminds us Mr. Speaker Sir, that this august House in making laws, should begin to moot the idea to criminalise conduct word association or any act of commission or omission that exposes our country to the wrath of our enemies pasi nema sanctions aluta continua -[HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear]-

MRS. MISIHAIRABWI-MUSHONGA: Mr. Speaker Sir, thank you Mr. Speaker Sir. I had deliberately said I was not going to participate in this debate. However, just listening and reading through the conversations that have taken place in the Hansard has gotten me to say perhaps we just need some people to stand up and speak and stop this madness. Because Mr. Speaker this is madness. The very fact that we as nation and we as legislators think that at this particular point in time, with all the challenges that we do have, can spend two three weeks of debating this particular issue is problematic for me. - [HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear] - But let me explain this to you I am going to try to be clear.

Firstly, I know that generally we as a nation have now been turned into celebrating mediocrity, into celebrating stupidity, and lies yes, yes. -[HON. MEMBERS: Aaah]- yes, yes

DR. GUMBO: On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker Sir, I would ask the hon. member to withdraw calling members of Parliament stupid and mediocrity.

MR. SPEAKER: Order! Order! My understanding is that the Hon. Member who was holding the floor did not refer to the Hon. Members as stupid. -[HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear]- [AN HON. MEMBER:The guilty are afraid] -.

MRS. MISIHAIRABWI-MUSHONGA: Thank you Mr. Speaker. I am disappointed. You may actually get to me because you do not even know who I am going to say is saying lies because I have not gotten to that point. I was merely saying we have been turned, as a nation, to celebrate certain things that we are not supposed to celebrate. Mr. Speaker Sir, the debate, the throwing back of words that has been going on in this House, is a clear indication of some of the problems we do have. But let me go back to the subject we are having. I know politics is a thankless job, but when I sit here and listen to some of the language that is used towards certain individuals, it hurts me. Let me cite an example, today this very afternoon -[ HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections]-

MR. SPEAKER: Order! Hon. members, you have the chance to respond at your time as well, so can you hear the hon. member speak.

MRS. MISIHAIRABWI-MUSHONGA: We sat down as a nation and agreed to a Global Political Agreement (GPA) to which the political parties that are sitting here were part of. If you go back to that GPA, it has certain things that we agreed we were going to do and part of those things that we agreed to are the things that we are debating, including this particular subject that we are debating which is the sanctions subject. It is written in the GPA. Why I am raising it Mr. Speaker? Is that after we have agreed for the past 4 years we had an Inclusive Government these particular individuals that are sitting here have spent the majority of their time re-engaging with the International Community. There is something wrong Mr. Speaker, in saying somebody like Hon. Tendai Biti, who if we listened today to Hon. Chinamasa speaking about IMF, did a lot of re-engaging with the IMF, and the World Bank for us to get to the point where we are getting to. -[HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear]- and you want to say that particular individual is the one who is responsible for putting on sanctions.

Mr. Speaker I myself who is sitting here, was a member of the re-engagement committee, that was made up by Hon. Mangoma as the leader of that delegation, myself and Hon. Chinamasa. The three of us spent the majority of our time re-engaging with the international community. So, for me to sit here and assume and attack me as a person who is responsible for bringing in sanctions can only mean that you are not being serious. I will not use the other term Mr. Speaker because I am respectful of you. The reason why I said it is unfortunate that we- [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections]-

MR. SPEAKER: Order, order.

MRS. MISIHAIRABWI-MUSHONGA: It is unfortunate that we, as a country outside all the other major issues that are happening here - things that we can use each other's audience to be upset and angry about. If there is anyone who wants to go and raise the issue of sanctions right now, there is Brussels to go to-[HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections]-you cannot spend your time speaking to us because no one holds the baby around sanctions. We have no responsibility around sanctions - [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections] - I do not hold any brief for anybody, I am holding a brief for myself and I am speaking about-[HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections]-

MR. SPEAKER: Order, mover of the motion, you have time to respond when you wind up.

MRS. MISIHAIRABWI-MUSHONGA: Mr. Speaker Sir, I just want to say for some of us, the generational change that had come into this particular House, we believed that we would begin to see certain changes in our thought processes. It is unfortunate that if you want me to listen to your argument, at least give me the decency of listening to my argument. You do not necessarily have to agree with me, but at least give me the ear. You cannot argue for being treated in a delicate and tolerant manner when I cannot speak in the same space where you can stand up and speak. Mr. Speaker, I am sure you are willing to give anybody as much time as possible to debate. At the very basic, I will speak in the manner that I want to speak-[HON. MEMBERS:Inaudible interjections]-

MR. SPEAKER: Order, order.

MRS. MISIHAIRABWI-MUSHONGA: Thank you Mr. Speaker. I can be as emotional as I want. What made people go to the struggle, was because they got emotional-[HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections]-

MR. SPEAKER: Order, order. Hon. member, kindly address the Chair, do not worry about the others.

MRS. MISIHAIRABWI-MUSHONGA: Mr. Speaker, what I do have here is a letter, which bears the logo of the Government of Zimbabwe. This letter was written by the three of us, which were the three political parties that were in the Inclusive Government. I am tabling this particular letter- [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections]-

MR. SPEAKER: Order, order. Hon. member, can you kindly summarise the issues in that letter because, as indicated earlier on, we will not accept the tabling of the document.

MRS. MISIHAIRABWI-MUSHONGA: Mr. Speaker, I am not tabling it, I am merely saying, this is a letter which bears the signature of Hon. Chinamasa, Hon. Mangoma as the leader of the delegation, it also bears this particular signature. I am saying, the very fact that these three political parties as represented in this particular august House were -[HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections]-

MR. SPEAKER: Order, order Hon. Chirisa. Can you allow the hon. member to put forward her ideas and let us not heckle beyond the limits of what is permissible in terms of our Standing Orders.

*MR. CHINOTIMBA: On a point of Order Mr. Speaker Sir. I believe that the Hon. Misihairabwi does not appreciate what we are representing here. This is not the GNU, it is Parliament. The GNU is now a thing of the past which has outlived its time. There is no need to produce such letters, it is not part of the debate. She must make reference to a point that was raised by someone and not the GNU, it has collapsed and it was a failure. I thank you-[HON. MEMBERS: Chinos, Chinos, Chinos]-

MR. SPEAKER: Order, order. May I remind hon. members of the provisions of Standing Order No. 75. What is required here is to address issues as succinctly as possible and concentrate on the motion so that we avoid repeating ourselves. I request you to allow the hon. member to wind up her debate accordingly- [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible Interjections]- Order, please carry on hon. member.

MRS. MISIHAIRABWI-MUSHONGA: Mr. Speaker Sir, let me just conclude by saying- [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections]-

MR. SPEAKER: Hon. Ndhlovu, please.

MRS. MISIHAIRABWI-MUSHONGA: Let me just conclude by saying the following; firstly, if we are going to address ourselves to the things that we are supposed to deal with, we need not find excuses all the time. Let us deal with the issues that are at hand. I am not saying that those who believe that sanctions are a real issue should not address it, but all I am asking Mr. Speaker is that in terms of this august House, let us deal with those issues that we can do something about. We cannot do anything about sanctions, no one holds the brief, no one holds- [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections]-

MR. SPEAKER: Order, carry on.

MRS. MISIHAIRABWI-MUSHONGA: No one holds the brief for anyone in this particular House - that is the first point. The second point Mr. Speaker, why some of us had consistently engaged in whatever manner that we had is because we believe that as a nation, we will not move forward if we continuously use the excuse of sanctions. I was joking with one of my fellow friends and I hope you can allow me this Mr. Speaker that, we have gotten to a point where, if somebody cannot find their underpants, it is because of sanctions. We need to get to a point where there are certain things that we can address. Therefore, if you were to ask me Mr. Speaker, whether those things are measures, sanctions or whatever they are, what I would want is to wake up one morning and find that they do not exist. As long as they exist, as a nation, we will continue to have people who refuse to address the issues of food, water - [HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear] - Mr. Speaker, treating your people with dignity, making sure that everybody gets food fairly and transparently, making sure that people can be treated well when they go to the hospital has absolutely nothing to do with sanctions. It has everything to do with how you and I relate to each other - [HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear].

If I was in Europe Mr. Speaker and was watching this debate, I would really think that those people were crazy because as far as I am concerned, Europe is supposed to be the one that those who have issues with, engage with. This particular House should be dealing with the fundamental issues that we are talking about such as, how do we get to treat cancer? It is not a fundamental issue at this particular point in time to be addressed by the people of Zimbabwe. We have absolutely no control over it. Even if today, we were to do 10 million signatures, no one here holds a brief for taking away those sanctions. Therefore, my humble request - [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections] -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, order. Hon. Chinotimba, can you stop pointing at the hon. member speaking, please. Can you conclude?

MRS. MISIHAIRABWI - MUSHONGA: Mr. Speaker, learning to respect women and not pointing at them has nothing to do with sanctions. It has something to do with how you were brought up and how you have been taught to respect others. Finally Mr. Speaker, what I had hoped we could do by speaking about this particular motion and saying it has nothing to do with us as Zimbabweans, was to try and bring sanity to the conversations that we were having in this House. I thank you Mr. Speaker Sir.

MR. MUKWANGWARIWA: Thank you Mr. Speaker Sir. I rise to support the motion by Hon. Hlongwane on the sanctions imposed on Zimbabwe. Sanctions imposed on Zimbabwe by the West are not a friendly gesture but an act of aggression; enemies can cause aggression. Some people are now emotional because they were part and parcel of that. Britain became a nation that enslaved other nations for over four centuries. Its record of enslaving Africans is far more notorious in scope and duration than its rivals - France, Spain, Portugal and all countries that got industrialised on the back of African slavery and are now part of the EU.

The US introduced economic sanctions on Zimbabwe through the Zimbabwe Democracy and Economic Recovery Act of 2001 (ZIDERA). ZIDERA is an Act passed by the United States Congress, sanctioned to provide for a transition to democracy. Senators Bill Frist and Russ Feingold introduced the Bill on 8th March, 2001. Senators Frist, Jesse Helms, Hillary Roddam Clinton and Joseph Hedden sponsored the Bill. The Senate passed the Bill on the 1st August and the House of Representatives passed the Bill on 4th December. President W. Bush signed it into law on 21st December, 2001. Mr. Speaker Sir, ZIDERA was passed with 91%, which was the vote of 396 votes of Congress, voting in favour of the Bill. Of the 396 votes, 194 were Democrats, 200 were Republicans and two were Independents, which is 3%. and 11 votes of Congress voted against ZIDERA. Two Democrats and eight Republicans …

MR. SPEAKER: Order, order. I want to read Standing Order Number 75, in case I was not understood. Standing Order Number 75 says, "the Speaker or the Chairperson, after having called to order any member who persists in irrelevance or tedious repetition, either of his or her own arguments or those used by other members in debate or who disregards any ruling or observation made from the Chair, which defines or restricts the scope of any debate or which relates to the enforcement of the provisions of Standing Order Number 61, may direct such member to discontinue his or her speech and to resume his or her seat". I say this because Hon. Mandipaka had dwelt at length on ZIDERA, so I request the hon. member to depart from that repetition and strike a new ground. Thank you and carry on please.

*MR. MUKWANGWARIWA: I thank you Mr. Speaker Sir. I was making reference in support of what has been discussed. It is true that sanctions were brought by the persons whom I have mentioned and they were invited by our colleagues so that we can be oppressed. As a result, this has caused us not to live in harmony with our uncles and grandfathers in the communal lands. They cannot go to hospitals because there is no medication. There are no jobs, poverty is rampant in the communal lands and we are not even able to till our lands. The Government cannot assist us with anything in terms of ways that are supposed to be used because of sanctions, hence retarding Zimbabwe's development. I would want to reiterate that we should be united in this august House as we debate on this motion and that if we speak with one voice as the august House of Zimbabwe, including the members of the opposition, that this is what we have agreed on. I know that there are others who were part and parcel of those that requested for these sanctions. We should go to the imposers of the sanctions and request that we now want to work together so that our country can develop because our country is endowed with mineral resources and all the other resources that are truly God given.

I urge Members of Parliament to be truthful as we debate this issue, because sanctions are the cause of poverty. We cannot mention sanctions because of the underwear that has been made reference to; because our grandmothers no longer have the money, as I their child who is in the urban centre, is no longer able to afford that so that we can give them. We are unable to sustain their livelihood in the communal lands, hence, we have no option but to say sanctions should be removed and that they should not be targeted on our President and his leadership.

We should be involved in open trading between Zimbabwean companies and those companies in the UK. There should not be any consultation with Treasury as to whether one can send their money outside, hence there will be no Foreign Direct Investment because of these sanctions. We should tell them that the members of the opposition and ourselves are now in agreement and speaking with one voice that sanctions should go, including the leader of the opposition and the Government leader. We say that they have agreed in this document which was proposed by Hon. Hlongwane that it be written to the West that we have suffered because of these sanctions. Sanctions have hurt my grandmother and every other Zimbabwean.

With those few words that I have said, I thank you. I had written my debate in English and some of the things are difficult for me to - [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.].

MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! Hon. Sibanda, ngatisiyanei nembavha. Please withdraw that because you are imputing directly that the Hon. Members who will respond to the motion through their signatures are mbavhas. Can you withdraw that statement?

MS. D. SIBANDA: I withdraw, Mr. Speaker Sir.

* MR. MUKWANGWARIWA: In conclusion, I would want to thank Hon. Hlongwane, the mover of the motion, a motion that is affecting everyone in Zimbabwe. We support it as the august House. All of us in this House should be able to say our concerns so that we can have development in our country. I thank you.

MR. SPEAKER: Sorry, Hon. Moyo, I understand you are now a Doctor, that is the correct title.

DR. G. MOYO: With effect from Friday, Mr. Speaker Sir.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker Sir, for affording me this opportunity to add my voice to this very important debate. I will confine myself to the motion. There are four key issues that are embedded in that motion. One is de-industrialisation, poverty, unemployment and brain drain. I am, however, disappointed by the framing of the motion. It suggests that these four problems affecting this country and Africa as a whole are traceable to 2002.

The umbilical cord of these problems, according to the motion, is traceable to 12 years ago. I have a problem with that. It is anti-historical. I think we need to peel off folklore from history because it is not true. I come from Bulawayo, de-industrialisation has been progressive back to the 1980s and not 12 years ago. You go to Bulawayo today, ask the City Council and Captains of Industry, they will tell you that Government has not been funding industries in Bulawayo and I am sure across the country too.

Therefore, it is not true at all to say that the problem of de-industrialisation started 12 years ago - [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] - It is not true. In fact, it is bordering around the issues of intellectual dishonest. ZISCO Steel's blast furnace number four closed in 1993/4 and that was 4, 5 or 6 years before the formation of the MDC. Eight years before ZIDERA. These are historical facts, empirical evidence and this has no propaganda value at all. It is true -

In terms of Standing Order No. 33(2) and it being after 6 o'clock p.m…

MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! Sorry to interrupt you hon. member. Our time there has passed 6 o'clock p.m so we will need in terms of our Standing Orders a motion to waiver the time period to allow the member to continue to debate.

MR. HLONGWANE: With leave of the House, I request that we proceed with the debate up to 7 o'clock p.m.


Motion put and agreed to.

DR. G. MOYO: I was saying ZISCO Steel blast furnace number four was closed in 1993 before ZIDERA and some 4 - 5 years before the formation of the MDC. A lot of people were laid off because of ESAP and it is true, the people of Zimbabwe were shocked -

MR. SPEAKER: Hon. Matangira, please!

MR. MADUBEKO: Mr. Speaker Sir, may I correct this Hon. Dr. Moyo -

MR. SPEAKER: Point of order please.

MR. MADUBEKO: The point of order is, ZISCO Steel number 4 blast furnace was never shut down in 1993. I was working there for thirty-two years - [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections] -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, order, Hon. Chikwinya.

MR. MADUBEKO: I was working there for thirty-two years. You do not have to say that to me - [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections] -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, Hon. Chikwinya.

MR. MADUBEKO: My young man, I was working there. You do not have to say that to me. I am far older than you. Number 4 blast furnace did not stop working in 1993. Number four blast furnace was working up to two thousand and something - [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections] - Yes, I left. It is -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, order.

MR. MADUBEKO: On a point of order Mr. Speaker Sir, Number 4 blast furnace was working. That is not true.

MR. SPEAKER: Order. Please, can your point of order be specific.

MR. MADUBEKO: He is not telling the truth - [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections] -

MR. SPEAKER: Order. Can you correct him and tell the correct date according to you.

MR. MADUBEKO : Number 4 blast furnace was working Mr. Speaker Sir up to two thousand and something. I have forgotten the correct year - [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections] -

DR. G. MOYO: Thank you Mr. Speaker Sir. I appreciate the attempt by the member to say something, but the truth of the matter is that the blast furnace number 4 at ZISCO Steel was closed in 1993, 1994. First, it was on and off in 1993 and in 1994 June, it was closed. This is empirical evidence. Cone Textiles and many other companies were closed in the mid 90s because of the policy of the Government then. It was the Government which shocked everybody including itself by turning from left; extreme left, as leftists, to become capitalists, adopting the Brettonwoods institutions' policies like the International Financial Institutions (IFI) policies. Those are the policies that destroyed the economy, and the problems that we have in terms of the industry are not traceable to 2002, Mr. Speaker Sir.

In terms of unemployment, you would recall that ZISCO Steel, Cone Textiles and Merlin used to employ a lot of people, but a lot of people were then laid off, down-sized by that policy. It is not as a result of the MDC and not as a result of ZIDERA, because both were not yet born by then.

Mr. Speaker Sir, the motion speaks on the issues of brain drain and skills flight. If you go to Soweto, South Africa in Alexander and carryout a simple survey, people there will tell you they left Zimbabwe in 1985, 1986 and 1987. Why? It was because of the policies of this Government. The policies of the Government led by ZANU PF which terrorised the people in Matabeleland and in Midlands, resulting in people leaving the country - [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections] - It was not because of -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, order. The motion clearly restricts itself to the imposition of sanctions in 2001, and I think we need to confine strictly to the dictates of the motion accordingly. Preface is okay, but let us not dwell too much on the preface. Let us dwell on the timeframe that is being given by the motion - [HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear].

DR. G. MOYO: Mr. Speaker Sir, the motion, as far as I have read it and as far as I understand it, it is tracing the problems of unemployment -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, order. You cannot debate the ruling of the Chair. It is simple as that, Hon. Moyo. Otherwise you will end up debating with the Chair and that is most unfortunate.

DR. G. MOYO: My apologies Mr. Speaker Sir. May I conclude then by saying the big countries now, in terms of economic development include countries like China. China has not imposed sanctions on Zimbabwe. Brazil has not imposed any sanctions on Zimbabwe. So has India. They have not imposed any sanctions on Zimbabwe. Why is it that these countries are not investing in this country? Why are we having problems with the countries whose economies are going down? We all know that the Euro Zone is in problems.

We all know that since 2007, the Americans have been going through economic crunch. They are in problems, but we have China and India there. Why are these countries not trading with us? It is because of the policies and not because of the sanctions. If anything - Mr. Speaker Sir, the truth has to be told. At times even hard truth has to be told. Some people have benefitted from the discourse of sanctions because they continue - [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections] - if you want me to say them, I will say them. Collectively, Mr. Speaker Sir, ZANU PF has benefitted from sanctions.

They have used sanctions to brutalise people. They have used sanctions to steal elections. They have used sanctions to talk about sovereignty. Just to use sanctions - they have benefitted collectively but as individuals, they have suffered because they are not travelling. That is the problem.

MR. NDUNA: On a point of order Mr. Speaker Sir. Can the hon. member limit himself to the motion and stop being emotional and digressing from the motion such that - [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections] -

MR. SPEAKER: That is not a point of order.

DR. G. MOYO: Thank you Mr. Speaker Sir. There are people who have benefitted from the sanctions debate. They have benefitted because they are selling diamonds with opaque avenues using sanctions. They say during the day, remove sanctions, during the night, they want those sanctions to remain because they are benefitting and stealing the resources of the country. I thank you.

MR. MATANGIRA: Thank you Mr. Speaker Sir - [AN HON. MEMBER: You have debated on this motion before]-

MR. SPEAKER: Order. I hear that an hon. member states that you spoke on the motion. I have checked with the officials and they say you did not speak on this particular motion. Thank you, can you take the floor?

MR. MATANGIRA: Thank you Mr. Speaker Sir. My contribution will be on what fellow hon. members have already said but I will intend to differ. Sanctions as sanctions, how did sanctions come to Zimbabwe? This is where I want to elaborate because the President of the Republic of Zimbabwe says, in the Bible; homosexuality is a sin that is unforgivable. That is number one.

Number two, the land reform programme that the Government of Zimbabwe indulged in was the main cause for sanctions. For anyone to say sanctions are not real in Zimbabwe is hypocrisy; it is not true. About 2.2 million people starving in the country; yes it is true. You do not go farming Mr. Speaker Sir, without the right inputs. You need inputs and money to farm. Without money you cannot farm.

We are talking about hospitals; we are saying there is no infrastructure. This is why people are dying; there is no machinery. For example the motion moved by Hon. Khupe, we need to combat all types of cancer. Let us take upon an understanding in this House that we will say; if we go out to the countries that have got these targeted sanctions on Zimbabwe, they will agree they have got sanctions.

We have hon. members in this House saying there are no sanctions. Sanctions are real, they are doing us bad and they are doing us down. We have to agree; I came a bit late. I was invited by Bindura University and they were talking about sanctions. Hon. members, I beg you to listen. They were talking about the United Nations Charter, 68th session and countries that have got representatives in this organisation; including America, Britain and Australia agreeing in their documentation. I can bring the documentation to this House. They are agreeing that they have got sanctions against Zimbabwe.

The American President who did ZIDERA said that sanctions are bloodless but they are effective and they can kill. You do not have to have military intervention in a country that is not loyal to you. Reasons are that we are now going to other countries that have sanctions against them. America, take for instance Iran; what wrong had Iran done. Iran itself, actually because a superpower believes in mightiness and cannot take competition from anyone.

In Zimbabwe, people went to war to die not because of independency cosmetic ties but people died because they wanted their land. The land now has come in the hands of the people and indigenisation is here but no one wants to fund agriculture. I would have loved that like the mover, Mr. Hlongwane has said; I am of the opinion that we go to the same countries that gave us sanctions. We go to the American, Australian and British embassies because the same people who are licking the boot of the imposers of sanctions; who support the same sanctions are the same people who are crying foul in this House saying that we need these. How do we do it without whatever?

The last speaker was talking about a past referral mishap. ZISCO Steel could have closed in 1993 but now we want it to open. How do we open ZISCO Steel if we have no lines of credit?

You talk about corruption, who is not corrupt? You cannot say corruption to a Government because a Government is represented by people; which we are also part and parcel of. Let us not mix things. We are talking about sanctions and not corruption. We are saying the reason why these sanctions were imposed on us; we stood on our own, we said we are a sovereign country.

Being a sovereign country, we decide which direction we have got to go. We do not have to accept homosexuality because Britain says if you do not accept it, we are not going to finance you. America on the other hand says homosexuality is the 'in thing'. It is diabolical. Anyone who supports homosexuality is out of his head because the Bible does not permit it.

So, Mr. Speaker Sir, we are actually saying, from where I stand and where I come from; the people of my Constituency and Zimbabwe, we are bleeding badly because of the sanctions. Sanctions must go in the name of Jesus Christ. They must go in the name of Jesus because we do not need them. They are killing people in Zimbabwe. We do not need sanctions. Sanctions must go.

Mr. Speaker Sir, what we should do is decide in this House who supports sanctions and who are saying sanctions must go and we vote. Then we will see who say sanctions must stay -[HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear]- we will also hear who will say there are no sanctions. When we say there are no sanctions, do not talk about hunger. Do not talk about de-industrialisation because you want it. Corruption is not something that we talk about. You will not vacate your house because a snake has entered. No. Get the snake, kill it and get back to your house.

Mr. Speaker Sir, I am still of the opinion that we vote in this House. Tomorrow maybe; let us vote and let us hear who supports sanctions in this House and who says sanctions must go. Then we will know who is who. Because even in the Bible, Mr. Speaker Sir…

MR. SPEAKER: Order, order. The motion does not call for a vote. So can you kindly stick to the motion please? Thank you and can you could wind up?

MR. MATANGIRA: Thank you Mr. Speaker SirThe motion does not call for a vote. I will move a motion to vote if it is allowed in this House…

MR. SPEAKER: Order. Order, hon. member, the Chair is addressing you. You do not want to interrogate the decision of the Chair. You have been so directed, please abide by the direction. Thank you, if you can wind up your speech.

MR. MATANGIRA: Thank you Mr. Speaker Sir. We are happy to say it is like everybody in this House has accepted that sanctions are biting and sanctions are real. All problems that we are facing with ZESA and other sectors, the crux of the matter is on sanctions. We love to hear what Australia is saying today. It is saying we will support indigenisation in Zimbabwe, so it means it is moving towards wanting to lift the sanctions. Britain says, we were your colonisers but we have seen that you are so strong. If you talk with one voice, we are going to lift sanctions. America is also saying the same, we want to do business with Zimbabwe but there is someone who has come to us and promised to give us everything that we need from Africa, and we are asking that person to come and unite with us for the prosperity of our country. I thank you Mr. Speaker.

*MR. MATAMBANADZO: Thank you Mr. Speaker Sir for affording me the opportunity to talk about sanctions. Sanctions, sanctions; this is a problem that should be analysed by every Zimbabwean child, if you are a black person. I believe that those that are capable of denying, can deny that there are no sanctions. Their leader was in England just recently. He said that there should be problems in Zimbabwe that things should be tough or ungovernable because he is no longer the Prime Minister of Zimbabwe and that there should be sanctions.

The same speakers that praised women; saying women are working harder than men, if they are more hardworking than men, they should be the ones who should be marrying us not the other way round. You are now very few in this House because you were using it as a way to justify an audience in this august House where you are now in the minority because you requested for sanctions. I would want to inform you, the few that remain, are you aware that you are liars - [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections] - you support evil things that cause harm to the country. There is ….

*MR. SPEAKER: Order, order. Hon. member, withdraw the words that they lie.

*MR. MATAMBANADZO: Mr. Speaker, I withdraw the term that they lie but I will substitute it with 'they misinform' that was my attention.

*MR. SPEAKER: Order, order, it is not allowed to say 'but', if you have withdrawn, your withdrawal should be unconditional.

*MR. MATAMBANADZO: I have withdrawn that they lie but I go further and state that in this august House, we are here to correct each other. If you see that someone's thinking is warped - [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections] - I will proceed and say that for women ….

*MR. SPEAKER: Hon. Matambanadzo, have I not said that we do not allow words that degrade others; words that turned to look at other persons in lesser appropriate terms, please, withdraw.

*MR. MATAMBANADZO: Thank you Mr. Speaker I will not repeat it but I am saying that in as far as women are concerned, these women who have been praised - with the new Government and the brand new ministers that are capable, let me tell you how good we are on what we have prepared for women.

There is a Ministry of Women's Affairs, Gender and Community Development. We have plans for the women to overcome sanctions. Yes, sanctions are there. the President even mentioned them because whites and their supporters are continuing with the arguments. So, we should put in place measures to beat the sanctions. We are not joking, few as you are, if you want to continue with these sanctions we are going to hit you hard in this manner.

Now, women have a fund of US$30 256 756.00 earmarked for women's projects that has been set aside by our brand new Government. I would want to tell you that, you may want to find out where this money is going to be acquired but we are not going to disclose the source because some of you are traitors. Therefore, we are not going to disclose the source. - [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections] -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, order. Hon. Chikwinya, you wanted to say something?

MR. CHIKWINYA: Thank you Mr. Speaker. My point of order is that we should respect the Chair and your person. When you make a ruling, it must set precedence in posterity. Since yesterday, I have been observing the member's contributions including today - [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections] -

MR. SPEAKER: What is your point of order?

MR. CHIKWINYA: My point of order is that the hon. member continues to disrespect your Chair and Office by continuously uttering unparliamentary statements. He has just said members on this side vatengesi today - [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections] -

which means, are sellouts.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, order. I know that the subject is very emotive but, can hon. members control their emotions please. The hon. member who was holding the floor, I have guided you sufficiently and you carry on using unparliamentary language including vatengesi. I kindly request you, please, to be directed accordingly and wind up your debate.

*MR. MATAMBANADZO: Thank you Mr. Speaker Sir. I will now deal with the issue of sanctions that has been dealt with by an hon. member. The hon. member said our trading with Europe..

MR. MUTSEYAMI: On a point of order Mr. Speaker. I think it is important that the hon. member sticks to the motion. My point of order is specifically to do with the withdrawal that he must do to his statement that he has done before. He is trying to be smart by not withdrawing, he must withdraw that statement.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, order. I get your point. Hon. member, you are requested, kindly, to withdraw the statement of, 'the members on the other side vatengesi'.

*MR. MATAMBANADZO: Thank you Mr. Speaker Sir. To keep asking me to withdraw, I respect your Chair but this is very bad. I cannot withdraw because I have not done anything wrong but simply mentioned what people who are in here do. I did not mention who it is, did I pinpoint anyone? If you are the one who is doing that, you should stop those deeds - [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections] -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, order. Because the hon. member has refused to be so directed, I shall not allow him to continue.

*MS. CHIKWINYA: Thank you Mr. Speaker. I am not going to say much because that has already been mentioned. I want to direct my mind to the sanctions and to those people who are unaware of what is happening. I want to give a personal experience.

Two years ago, I lost my brother in the United States of America, an uncle to the young man who is seated over there. I was urgently asked to come to the United States of America to see what had happened. I lost my parents and I am the eldest sibling in the family. I was urgently summoned to come and look into some issues in America - [AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible interjections] - My friend, I do not want to be interjected when I am debating, I do not want that.

I just want to show you what affects ordinary people. These are not targeted sanctions because they involve everyone and it is the example that I want to give. I went to the American Embassy with all the documents requesting to travel to America because of the problems that I had in the family. They looked at all my papers and said, we regret you cannot travel to America as you are on the sanctions list.

My brother was buried as a pauper; his property that was worth millions was lost and to date, we do not know what has become of it. His children are now paupers and suffering because I failed to just go to collect and bring them home. His houses and everything else have been lost. What wrong have the children committed? What do I know about these sanctions? What wrong have I done? I have also been affected with my family. So, what do you have to say about it? I am not the only one who has been subjected to that, there are a lot of people who are suffering because of sanctions. I implore you that if there are those who know anything about sanctions and how they were imposed, I am saying this is a bad thing and I am talking from a personal experience. I am still on the sanctions-list.

Sanctions are real. They have affected a lot of people. The Global Political Agreement acknowledged that there are sanctions. Article No. 4 of the GPA acknowledges that there are sanctions. Who are we to refuse that? The three men sat down and said that there are sanctions and yet in this august House, there are some who deny that there are sanctions. Let us not behave like children in this House.

There are some people who say that ZANU PF enjoys sanctions - remove the sanctions and expose us. Remove the sanctions and expose us so that you hear what we will talk about. Some people are saying we are hiding under sanctions - remove that cover so that we remain in the open and see what you will then say about us.

In winding up my debate briefly, I am not speaking because I am hurt as a result of the suffering that the women are going through the borders and the manner that I am raising my children under sanctions is a difficult thing. How do we survive or overcome this animal called sanctions? There are a lot of women who are in the diaspora who left their children who are now drug addicts. They are now doing deplorable things because they have no parents - it is because of sanctions. If possible, we would want the sanctions removed. We should call a spade a spade and let us do that in unison.

If, as MDC -T you are saying there are no sanctions - very well, let us face those that have imposed sanctions as a united force. I saw Mr. Tsvangirai's signature and President Mugabe's signature appended on the Global Political Agreement, why then do you deny that there are no sanctions vapfanha? Does that mean a thing?

MR. MUTSEYAMI : On a point of order, I am kindly asking the hon. member to withdraw the statement that we are vapfanha. We are honourable Members of Parliament.

MS. CHIKWINYA : My sincere apologies, they are honourable Members of Parliament.

MR. HLONGWANE : I move that the debate do now adjourn.

MR. CHIKWINYA : I second.

Motion put and agreed to.

Debate to resume: Thursday, 7th November, 2013.

On the motion of DR. J. M. GUMBO seconded by MS ANASTANCIA NDHLOVU , the House adjourned at Nine Minutes to Seven o'clock p.m.

Last modified on Thursday, 20 February 2014 09:41
National Assembly Hansard Vol. 40 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY HANSARD - 6 NOVEMBER 2013 VOL. 40 NO. 13