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Tuesday, 11th October, 2011

The Senate met at Half-past Two o'clock



(MADAM PRESIDENT in the Chair)



MADAM PRESIDENT: May I remind the hon. senators to please switch off their cellphones before the commencement of business.



MR. GONESE: I seek leave to move restoration of the motion standing in my name that the Public and Security Amendment Bill [HB11A,2009] which was superseded by the prorogation of the Third Session of the Seventh Parliament be restored on the Order Paper at stage at which it had reached.

SENATOR G.T. DUBE: I second.



MR. GONESE: This is just a procedural motion whereby I am seeking that the Public Order and Security Amendment Bill be restored to the Order Paper at the same stage that it had reached at the time of our prorogation.

Hon. senators we recall that we had a debate on this Bill on the 2nd of August after which the debate was adjourned to the 3rd of August. On the 3rd of August the debate was further adjourned to the 30th of August, at that time Madam President there was an understanding that the matter was going to be discussed at the Negotiators Forum. However, it has turned out that there is no movement or any progress in that regard and as a result Madam President, it will be appropriate for all hon. senators to have an opportunity to debate the merits of the Bill. I think this is an important peace of legislation which I have introduced and I think it is only proper for Senators to be able to speak to it, to debate and to give their thoughts on this peace of legislation.

However, it is for that reason, Madam President that I have come back to this august Chamber to move that this Bill be restored on the Order Paper . At this point in time it is only restoration to the Order Paper and then at the pleasure of hon. senators debate can resume at a date convenient for the senators. These matters are entirely procedural and I believe that they usually proceed by way of understanding, by way of consent whereby all parties would appreciate that the purpose of bringing the motion is not to say that people had an agreement with the Bill itself but for the purpose of enabling every member of this august Chamber to have an opportunity to have their say so that at the end of the day those who may not be in agreement with the Bill, they can give their reason so that I as the mover of the Bill can consider those reasons and respond accordingly and appropriately.

I therefore seek the support of all hon. senators for this motion which is simply procedural in nature it is not substantial in the sense that today we are not going to delve in the merits or de-merits of the Bill but rather we are simply having a situation where the Bill comes back to this august house at the same stage where it was because if my memory saves me right, after reading the Second Reading speech, only two senators that is Senator Makore and Senator Kabayanjiri who had debated otherwise the rest had not debated. In fact Senator Kabayanjiri asked for more time to research which after some consultation was agreed. By the same token I am agreeable to a situation where hon. senators again familiarise themselves with the Bill, carry whatever research they need to carry out and then come to the Chamber well prepared as I have already pointed out. With these few remarks I so move, Thank you Madam President.

*SENATOR KABAYANJIRI: I just stood up to comment on what Hon. Gonese has been saying in connection with restoring his Bill on the Order Paper. I think we should be given some more time to continue with our research. However before we go back to do some research, we had already been properly advised that we, as senators cannot continue to debate this motion in this House because it had been referred to our Principals, who are the ones who agreed to do more research on this Bill. Also bear it in mind that it is not only this country that is using such a law as POSA but there are many other countries following the same law. So, that is the reason why I think we should not continue debating this motion. I thank you.

*SENATOR MUMVURI: I also rise to complement what Senator Kabayanjiri has said because here we are dealing with a motion which was brought in by a private member, not government or a minister. At the end of it, the other side felt that this matter cannot be competently handled by us here since it is a product of the GPA. In his remarks ,Hon. Gonese did not explain why it has stalled but he just said they are taking long. If that is the case, give them time because they have not given us permission to go ahead. From our side, we feel that it is a very sensitive Bill which can be better handled by our Principals first, then the negotiators next and we proceed from there. He should make an effort to go and find out from the Principals why it has taken so long. He is not even a negotiator, is he? So, from the side I represent, I think we should shelve the motion because we cannot accept the reinstatement of this motion on the Order Paper.

SENATOR CHITAKA: Thank you Madam PresidentI rise to express my deep disappointment in the sense that some of my colleagues feel that this motion should not be restored on the Order Paper. It is our duty as senators to debate issues and find merit or otherwise in an issue that is brought before us. What kind of message are we sending when we refuse to confront and face issues. POSA is not a GPA project, POSA is a process of the GPA. I think for some of you who are familiar with the so called negotiations ,the road map clearly has something to do with certain aspects of POSA. As long as some sections of the political spectrum feel that there needs to be adjustment for the road map for free and fair elections, then such Bills as the one proposed by Hon. Gonese should be brought here so that we confront the road map and show whether it is going the right way or not, rather than for us to hide and shy away from our responsibilities as senators.

There is no need to fear. If hon. senators, during debating time have convincing arguments about why the Bill should not be passed in its format or as amended, so be it. Why then are we scared to debate an issue which is in the public domain, why are we calling this Bill sensitive? I do not see how this Bill can be regarded as sensitive at all.

Right now we have a lot of wikileaks going around which are more sensitive and we talk about that in the public domain. I then do not see why we cannot confront a certain piece of legislation, look at it and say is this what we want or not what we want. So, why should we put road blocks, are we scared of democracy, why are we hiding behind the so called negotiators. Negotiators are neither Parliament nor the government of this country. They are just individuals representing certain political interests. We have our mandate as representatives of the people to debate and put forward legislation that we think is for the good of this country. Let us be judged not for being cowards but be judged for confronting issues and say this is what we decided. Let history judge us positively not history to judge us as cowards who refused to debate POSA. I thank you.

SENATOR MARAVA: Thank you Madam President. I am surprised with what is happening now in this august House which is full of level headed people. The restoration of this motion on the Order Paper, is something that if we are not given an opportunity, we would have felt somehow stifled. We always encourage home grown solutions. We always say let us solve Zimbabwean problems with Zimbabwean solutions and here we are with our local home grown Bill which needs home grown solutions. We are here to conclude it and find the necessary solutions but we are running away from that authority.

I think we can not continue to hide behind our fingers. When debate began, all members were here and we all agreed that we were going to debate POSA and all that entails but now we are running away from the same point which the whole world was listening to when we were debating in here that we were going to debate and find our own solutions. I am of the opinion that as a House and this House is very important, if the politicians fail, we will refer to the ndunas, they are here in this House and we will find a solution. Let us not run away.

SENATOR MANDABA: I also rise to object to the restoration of this Bill on the Order Paper. When it was introduced and a few debates had taken place, it was explained clearly that our negotiators had extensively researched on it and consulted and they were the ones responsible for this Bill. I think, we have the Legislature, the Executive and the Judiciary but the Executive is the supreme body of this country. The negotiations were done by members of this supreme body which is the Executive and after the explanation that they were responsible for this Bill and having heard that other countries also have such a Bill and that extensive consultations were done, we do not feel that we should be wasting our time to negotiate.

What we could do is that perhaps the mover of the motion should make suggestions to the negotiators and do whatever is needed to be looked into as far as the Bill is concerned.

*SENATOR MAKUNDE: I agree with what has been said by Senator Kabayanjiri and Senator Mumvuri. What surprises me is that on the restoration of this motion on the Order Paper, when we last discussed about this issue, we had the privilege of having the Minister of Justice and Legal Affairs in this House. He is the one who is conversant with our laws and also a member of the negotiating team of the three parties.

The Minister of Justice and Legal Affairs assisted us and said we should stop debating it because the matter was being dealt with by the negotiating team. If the Minister wanted to consult with us as the Senate on what our views were we could have given him our views. If I am not mistaken, I think Hon. Gonese was sitting in here and he heard about it and that the issue was being handled by the negotiating team.

If I could ask my colleagues that as an inclusive government we say we are working together and moving together then we come here and say we do not agree with what the negotiators are discussing there. Does the Senate have more powers than our Principals? As a member of the Senate, I say we respect our Principals and secondly, we also respect our negotiating team. On this issue, we should give them the chance and should they fail and want ideas from us, then they would come back to us as the Senate.

*SENATOR CHIMBUDZI: I support issues raised by the previous speakers - Senator Makunde and Senator Mumvuri. It is not that we are cowards and I am responding to the suggestion that we are cowards. That is wrong because we are not cowards but as has been said by Senator Makunde with regards to what Minister Chinamasa said, I support that. We are not cowards and this is the first time for us to debate a Private Member's Bill because the Bills that come here are from the Government.

So, there is nothing we can do about this Bill. On the part of ZANU PF, we have not sat and decided. We are not cowards. We have our Principals and as has been said by Senator Makunde, we should respect our Principals. The same applies to our negotiators that we should hear from them.

*SENATOR DETE: Thank you Madam President for this opportunity. I was looking at this Bill and I asked myself that what are we rushing for to have this Bill reinstated yet we have learnt from Senator Chinamasa that the Bill is in the hands of the Principals? We should give them the chance and then they will come back to us. I do not know if Hon. Gumbo went back to discuss with Senator Chinamasa to be briefed on the progress made and we hear what our Principals are saying. That is my opinion Madam President.

*SENATOR DETE: Speech not recorded due to technical fault.

+SENATOR NCUBE: We need to debate about it as senators so that we can be free and happy even when we go for elections. Today it is good to you ZANU PF because you support POSA which was put by the whites yet you do not want it to be removed since it was put by the whites. In other words you are in support of colonisation.

SENATOR MOHADI: We are talking about the POSA, talk about it and not insulting each other. We, as ZANU PF never said that this was brought in by MDC because of a, b, c, we are just talking about POSA so let us debate matters of concern and not insult others.

MADAM PRESIDENT: Continue hon. member you have the floor.

+SENATOR NCUBE: I was still saying POSA was not put by any party MDC, MDC-T and ZANU PF. This POSA should be removed because it was put by the whites and not any of us here.

MADAM PRESIDENT: Order, Senator Ncube, actually you should be debating whether we want this back or not.

+SENATOR NCUBE: Madam President, I am in full support of the motion and I believe it should be reintroduced on the Order Paper. We want to talk about it because it is hurting us as MDC and we want to debate about it and there are so many others who want it to be reintroduced on the Order Paper. I thank you.

*SENATOR FEMAI: Thank you Madam Speaker, I want to reluctantly add my voice to this debate. I say reluctantly because I am taken aback by the fact that members want to debate the reinstatement of a motion, which to me is unprocedural. I am quite hurt by the fact that we all know that this country attained its independence after the shedding of blood. Our constituencies do not know that when we come here, we follow narrow minded party politics. I am hurt by the lack of an inclusive stance by both members of ZANU PF and MDC, whom I know very well. Our practice has always been that we do not stifle debate as what some hon. senators on this other side of the House are advocating for. It is my considered view that the motion should be reinstated and only after its reinstatement can members debate the pros and cons of the Bill. Madam President it is not good to have this approach where what is good for the goose is not good for the gander. Furthermore, I heard a member making reference to the Legislature and there was mention of the three arms of the State, this implies that the GPA is not the fourth arm of the State. I am sorry to say that some hon. senators may not have had sight of the GPA because the GPA does not make reference to the fact that Parliament cannot debate certain issues.. Hence it should not have any influence in our reinstating of the motion for debate.

*MADAM PRESIDENT: Hon. Senator Femai, you know the rules of debate in this House, why are you behaving in such a manner?

*SENATOR FEMAI: I strongly urge the reinstatement of this Bill so as to allow members who are for and against the Bill the chance to debate it. What I know for a fact is that those who are strongly opposed against the Bill reinstatement, once it is reinstated they will be the first ones to debate.

+SENATOR DUBE: Madam President, I stand up to air my views. I am of the view that this motion should be reintroduced. They debated it in the House of Assembly. Hon. Gonese wants us to bring up the pros and cons of this motion. People should not refuse that it be reintroduced if they are not afraid that anything bad will come out of the debates.

+SENATOR DUBE: This motion should be brought back in this House. In the House of Assembly, they did not disagree on debating this motion and so why should we? Madam President, let us talk about it and let us all agree that it should be re-introduced on the Order Paper.

*SENATOR CHIEF MUSARURWA: Madam President, instead of us wasting time arguing, I am suggesting that we divide the House.

+SENATOR MBAMBO: Thank you Madam President for giving me this opportunity to air my own views. We thank Hon. Gonese for bringing this motion to this House. However, we should respect our political parties, our principals and leaders. They are people we chose in this House to lead us in this issue. Madam President, let us behave like senators, let us stick to what we agreed on. We all know of ants, they have a leader that they follow in everything they do. Let us copy them as leaders. The negotiators will lead us in this issue of POSA. Hon. Gonese came in this House when Senator Chinamasa was present and we agreed that we will find people to lead us on this issue. Madam President, we all want to see this nation prosper. Let us let the leaders do their part in this issue.

*SENATOR MUCHIWA: Thank you Madam President for the opportunity that you have given me and I want to say greetings to you, I have not seen you for some time. I believe this motion has been brought to to the House for us to debate, this is like if someone gets to a shop, if you see different types of clothes, even some clothes that are open and tight fitting, you will make your choice. So it is the same with this motion, it has been brought before the august House, I will not debate this motion, I will be listening to what is happening and leave those who want to debate to do so. This has happened to our committees several times. If there is a debate, some people do not debate them. We should behave like elders. The same would apply to this motion. This motion has been debated in the House of Assembly without any problem. We should re-instate the Bill on the Order Paper and debate it. Those who are debating for and against it will do so because I will be learning the pros and cons of the Bill.

We should behave well and set precedence, the motion should be re-instated on the Order Paper and be debated. It does not augur well for us as elders to be arguing on this issue. I urge all of you hon. senators to allow the motion to be re-instated and it should be debated. We do not want to divide the House.

SENATOR D. KHUMALO: Thank you Madam President. I am in support for the restoration of the Bill on the Order Paper. I want to say as Parliamentarians, let us not adjudicate our duty of law making to the negotiators, they are not Parliament. This is our responsibility as Parliamentarians. Those who are against the Bill will also register their reservations on the day we will be debating the Bill.

+SENATOR J. DUBE: Madam President, my own point of view is that we should leave this motion to the negotiators. We should respect the GPA as this motion is in their hands at the moment. Madam President, it seems like we cannot come to an agreement. I am in support of the hon. senator who said that we should divide the House and vote.

SENATOR SINAMPANDE: Thank you Madam President. I have stood up to second the motion that the Bill should be re-instated on the Order Paper to be debated in future.

MR. GONESE: I have listened to what hon. senators have said and in moving for the adjournment of the debate, I am motivated by the following reasons. Sentiments have been expressed that some might like to consult the negotiators and I think in all fairness, Madam President I did not expect to have this lively debate. Normally, when we move a motion of this nature I think you will recall even from your days as the Deputy Speaker in the House of Assembly, this would not take even five minutes, it will be only a matter where the mover would speak to it and hon. senators would agree. This is so because we are not dealing with the Bill at this moment in time but only with the motion. However, having listened to what some senators have said, I think in all fairness, let us defer and adjourn this debate. I know that Senator Chinamasa is in Geneva at the moment and I think it is appropriate that we continue the debate in his presence so that I can also explain the reasons why I feel that it is important for this august House to debate the Bill. It is for those reasons that I would appeal to all Senators to agree to an adjournment of the debate. We are not concluding it, one of the reasons being that one of the principal actors who has been mentioned by several members who have spoken, is ho. Senator Chinamasa who is in Geneva at the moment . Although I would like to make the following observations in concluding, that what must be made clear is that at this point in time, we are not talking about the Bill rather we are only talking about a motion so that we can debate the Bill. I have noticed that some senators were of the impression that we are actually delving into the Bill at this point in time.

The other observation I would like to make is that we are not seeking to repeal POSA, because of the way senators were talking about similar pieces of legislation in other countries. I am seeking to amend not to repeal the Bill, I just thought it was important to make that clarification.

Therefore, Madam President for the reasons that I have given, I believe that it is appropriate to adjourn this debate so that we resume it when Senator Chinamasa is back so that he also gives his input regarding the status of the negotiation. I have pointed out that it is within my rights as a Private Member to bring the Bill but at this point in time, I think it will be in the interest of all concerned to have this deferment to enable us to look at it or to revisit the issue where any others who want to make consultations have made the necessary consultations.

SENATOR KABAYANJIRI: On a point of order Madam President.

MADAM PRESIDENT: What is your point of order?

SENATOR KABAYANJIRI: Since we had discussed this issue in this House, we were now awaiting your decision, Madam President, over the contributions that have been made by hon. Senators.

MADAM PRESIDENT: Order, order hon. senators. This is a motion like any other motion hon. senators which has a mover and the mover of that motion has decided that the debate be now adjourned. -[HON. SENATORS: Inaudible interjections]-

MADAM PRESIDENT: Order, order hon. senators inga munochigona basa wani, kozvaita sei futi.

MR. GONESE: I move that the debate do now adjourn.


SENATOR MOHADI: Thank you Madam President, these people have spoken. They rejected to restore this Bill and people have two opinions as we speak now and one speaker moved for the division of the House.

Motion put and agreed to.

Debate to resume: Wednesday 12th October, 2011.



Second Order read: Adjourned debate on motion in reply to the Presidential Speech.

Question again proposed.

SENATOR MAKAMURE: May I also take this opportunity to highlight some of the ways that I think can improve our economy through agriculture. The President of Zimbabwe has proudly mentioned that agriculture has contributed 33.9% of the country's GDP. Agriculture can still maintain a leading role in the growth of our economy. Measurable targets should be set for those who have benefitted from the Land Reform Programme. Examples of such targets would be maximum utilisation of acquired land e.g. putting a given percentage, say 75% of given land under crop production. Those in A1 and A2 farms should give a minimum of 2 tonnes to the GMB annually. At least each plot of commercial farm….

MADAM PRESIDENT: Order honorable senators. Hon. Senator, normally the rule is if you are going to read your response, you clear it with the Presiding Officer. You just do not automatically read your contribution. I have just checked with the Clerks and they said you did not. I suppose because you are there and you have prepared it, we still have to remind each other of the rules. If you need to read your contribution, we have to agree that you may read it, otherwise you can only refer to your notes. You may continue.

SENATOR MAKAMURE: Besides those targets, the Government has a lot to do as a way of promoting development in this country. GMB should pay farmers for their produce within two weeks of delivery. Up to now, it seems there is very little incentive for delivering farm produce to the GMB. The Government seems to be doing very little in making farm produce within or outside Zimbabwe. Our farmers produce sugar-cane, soya-beans, sunflowers, cotton and tobacco in large volumes. If such incentives as good prices are offered most farmers will produce more. Most farmers have a feeling that sugar beans can be used for feeding boarding school pupils only. This is because Agro industries are not working. Industries that possess farm products such as ground nuts, maize and sunflower into cooking oil should be assisted so that they produce cooking oil and bring an end to imports of cooking oil from South Africa. The Agricultural Marketing Authority should be revived and help market local farm produce to ensure highways running through farmlands in the country are properly fenced to prevent to road accidents.

Roaming animals grazing on the sides of roads are a problem particularly at this time of the season. In Harare, Chivhu and Gutu, Masvingo, Birchenough Bridge and Mutare, it is a common feature that you see animals because there is no fence.

Madam President, State coffers are also bleeding profusely because there is duplication of roles in the agricultural departments. There is Agritex, Lands, Irrigation, Mechanisation and such creation of these departments leads to duplication of roles. Although inputs are available, Government subsidised inputs are disbursed well after the beginning of the season and there are so many loopholes in the distribution of inputs. There are also problems in the distribution of inputs by powerful individuals who cause the absorption of inputs into the black market. What we would like to see in agriculture is that inputs are distributed by Agritex officials and Councillors only.

May I take this moment Madam President, to conclude by encouraging Government to take agriculture seriously and make use of the land properly. I thank you.

THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS: I move that the debate do now adjourn.

Motion put and agreed to.

Debate to resume: Wednesday, 12th October, 2011.

On the motion of THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS, the Senate adjourned at a Quarter to Four o'clock p.m.


Last modified on Thursday, 21 November 2013 14:23
Senate Hansard Vol. 21 SENATE HANSARD - 11 OCTOBER 2011 VOL. 21 NO. 05