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SENATE HANSARD 19 JULY 2016 VOL 25 NO 62

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PARLIAMENT OF ZIMBABWE

Tuesday, 19th July, 2016

The Senate met at Half-past Two o’ clock p.m.

PRAYERS

(THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE in the Chair)

MOTION

BUSINESS OF THE SENATE

          HON. SEN. MLOTSHWA: I move that Order of the Day Number One be stood over, until the rest of Orders of the Day have been disposed of.

          HON. SEN. MARAVA: I second.

          Motion put and agreed to.

MOTION

PRESIDENTIAL SPEECH: DEBATE ON ADDRESS

          Second Order Read: Adjourned debate on motion in reply to the Presidential Speech.

          Question again proposed.

          HON. SEN. TAWENGWA: I move that the debate do now adjourn.

          HON. SEN. MASUKU: I second.

          Motion put and agreed to.

          Debate to resume: Wednesday, 20th July, 2016.

MOTION

REPORT ON THE TRANSFORMATIONAL LEADERSHIP SEMINAR HELD AT KENYATTA UNIVERSITY

Third Order read: Adjourned debate on motion on the Report of the Transformational Leadership Seminar held at the Kenyatta University, Nairobi, Kenya.

Question again proposed.

*HON. SEN. MANYERUKE: Thank you Mr. President for giving me the opportunity to make my contribution on a motion raised by Hon. Senator Mutsvangwa who is the Chairperson of Zimbabwe Women’s Caucus.

We had a safe and interesting journey to Kenya and I would like to thank all female Members of Parliament, from both Houses who attended this conference.  It was exciting flying to Kenya and we were given an honourable reception, and VIP treatment.  I would also like to thank the Government of Zimbabwe for the support they gave us so that this conference was a success.  We had a very educative and informative conference at the Kenyatta University.  What was most exciting was, it was like back to school because we were at a university.  We had very good food and pleasant treatment, which I could call VVIP treatment. 

It showed that women of Zimbabwe were very constructive.  One of the lessons I learnt is that, as female members, we have to support each other in any programme we have.  We also need to continue with our education instead of being contented with what we are.  After the deliberations at the conference, we were given certificates of appreciation for what we had done.  I urge female Parliamentarians to keep going back to school.  We know that as elderly people we may have problems in reading the books because of our eye sight but we can visit opticians and get reading glasses.

On the graduation day, we were congratulated by highly learned people, doctors and professors.  To me, this was great and I have risen to offer my gratitude to Hon. Mutsvangwa for the clarity in the report which was presented.  Thank you Mr. President.

*HON. SEN. CHIEF NEMBIRE: Thank you Mr. President.  I would like congratulate the delegation of women Parliamentarians who went to Kenya.  Thank you Hon.  Sen. Mutsvangwa for leading this delegation to Kenya.  As Chiefs, we have five female chiefs and may not be part of a delegation which includes men, but we are saying they should be included in whatever we do.  We have four female chiefs in Matabeleland and one in Mashonaland.

The delegation which went to Kenya was involved in a lot of productive programmes.  We have policies in Zimbabwe which encourage women to take any business they want, women in farming, women in mining and women in construction.  We would like to say the information gathered on leadership, imparted to the parliamentarians in Kenya, may this be implemented in our programmes in Zimbabwe and this will lead to the uplifting of the women in Zimbabwe.

We also have some other policies which are in the SADC Protocol. We would appreciate it if these are also implemented in our developmental programmes is Zimbabwe. by so doing,  there will be progress in Zimbabwe. I also urge women parliamentarians to support the Zimbabwe anti-domestic violence.  We will have peace in Zimbabwe because as women, they are very influential and they can control their men.  You can fight domestic violence in our homes.  I thank you.

*HON. SEN. MURWIRA: I would like to thank you Mr. President for giving me the opportunity to make my contribution.  I am also grateful to Hon. Sen. Mutsvangwa for the report presented in this august House on the visit to Kenya.   As a woman, I am very much elated.  It pleases me very much to find that we have women who go to Kenya and gain information and education on the progress of women.  Out of the report given, I was very much interested by the gender balance which is equal opportunities between men and women.  This is unlike in the past whereby women were down trodden from birth till death.  We have seen that in Zimbabwe women have been put on equal footing with men and receive equal opportunities.  I say thank you to His Excellency for affording women this opportunity and also get women who are members of the Senate. 

The report also included debates on early marriages.  I am glad to know that Zimbabwe is one of the countries which is fighting child marriages and yet on the other hand, in some countries, when the girl child is eight years old, she is married off.  I say a very big thank you to Zimbabwe because it is upholding the girl children’s rights.

We were also taught about the dress code on the etiquette and decorum because if you are not properly dressed and you go to some gathering there is a problem in trying to pull up whatever dress or skirt so that it is properly positioned, which is uncomfortable. Hence, we have been given this information, let us dress properly and dress according to the situation.  If there is a place where you are going to, you should study the kind of congregation and put on your clothes accordingly because if you are improperly dressed, you are uncomfortable.  You will be trying to correctly position whatever dress you are putting on.

I also want to thank the men of Zimbabwe because they have realised the potential in women and they have said that let us have equal opportunities both men and women.  I will not leave out our chiefs.  Our chiefs are also gender conscious.  They want the up-liftment of women and equal opportunities for both sexes. I would urge fellow women that if you are receiving information from members who have represented us in other for a, let us implement that.  As women, let us avoid ‘the pull her down syndrome’ and let us operate with no separation of political influences but just as women, we should be one. I thank you.        

          *HON. SEN. CHIMBUDZI: Thank you Mr. President. I would like to make my contribution on the report which was presented by Hon. Sen. Mutsvangwa and her seconder.  Thank you Chairperson of the women’s Caucus Hon. Sen. Mutsvangwa because of the sterling job which you are carrying out and it is leading to the progress and development of women.  We are accessing knowledge which we were not aware of.  We are aware of the fact that before independence, women were minors.  They were not allowed to have identity cards and in some instances, when a woman wanted to open up a bank account, she was denied, instead she would be encouraged to use the identity of her boy child.  Therefore, Hon. Sen. Mutsvangwa, thank you for sharing the knowledge with other women in Kenya and you brought us some constructive and progressive ideas.  I am sure we are going to develop. Whenever we have such gatherings, it is a place of sharing ideas, development and a chance of looking into the future. 

Let me just quote what was said by the previous speaker.  The previous speaker talked about the etiquette and decorum.  When we watch out television, especially the African movies, they have a national dress.  We always admire them because of that national dress.  It is unlike us in Zimbabwe, who are very much colonised by the British.  We are people who are always putting on costumes and suits and we gather information on the etiquette and decorum.  It is going to help us in shaping our future. 

          The women’s caucus has done well.  We plead with the media to support and publish some of the developmental programmes and progress done by the women so that people are aware. The previous speaker Hon. Sen. Murwira thanked the male members of this country for supporting women, that is why we are in this House.  May I beg you men folk that in our next elections in 2018, may we please have more women in Parliament because with your support, there is going to be progress? Support the women and give them ideas on the progress and development of Zimbabwe.   A very big thank you to our men. At times in politics, you need to have financial prowess but I know our men are going to support us. 

As women, we are also grateful to our Government which supported the big delegation which went to Kenya.  There were a lot of countries which attended that conference and they really praised Zimbabwe for such a delegation which attended that conference.  It shows that Zimbabwe has many women in the legislative process. Therefore, we plead with our Chairperson Hon. Sen. Mutsvangwa to go and fundraise so that we may send a big delegation with as many as 80 women to such conferences.  This will show that Zimbabwe really has a very big quota set up for women.  You are representing Zimbabwe and Africa and when you go to those areas, it is showing that we are bringing progress to the country and we also develop at the same time with the progress in other countries.

          HON. SEN. CHIMHINI: I stand to support the report presented by Hon. Senator Mutsvangwa and just add a few comments. As we approach elections, we may have Women’s Assembly in MDC-T and the Women’s League in ZANU PF, my appeal is that these women groupings should be exemplary in terms of leading towards peace – [HON. SENATORS: Hear, hear.] – if we then see women being in the forefront to perpetuate violence, either by instigating, in singing or utterances, then I think we lose direction. So, it is important that we walk the talk. We can come here and present very good speeches, ululate and thank those who went and learnt, but if we do not practice what we learnt then we are missing a very important point in our political life.

          Secondly, I want to appeal to all women that we stop gossiping because once you start gossiping and talking ill of other women then you are not promoting what you learnt. Let us practice what we learnt and we will be seen to be serious in our political activities. When we have a woman who is doing well, let us praise and support that individual. We are not in competition but we are in a process where we are learning from one another. I think this is what we should see happening from the women who went out to learn and our women who are around who have received the report so that we can say we learnt something to be positive.

          Last but not least, we expect women to rise on merit and not rise because men will promote and at times abuse the women in the process of rising. My appeal is that women must stand up and there must be a real merit to be promoted. Through capacity building, it must help the women to say I am here and I can do it and I am doing it because I am capable of doing it. I really want to thank those who went to learn and that you came back and are sharing with us, but I think let us have a change in mind and attitude, then we can move forward as a country. I thank you.

          *HON. SEN. MAKORE: I want to thank you Mr. President for affording me this opportunity to add my voice. I want to thank Senator Mutsvangwa with this issue that she brought from Kenya where she went with other women to learn from the University of Kenya. A lot of things have been shared in this House but I stood up to emphasise on the issue of influence. Women have got a lot of influence and are respected and listened to, even in the homes we listen to them. Seeing us well dressed and looking well like this, it is because of the women who cook for us but when it comes to the issue of influence it is very important.

          If you influence the children well, it will build the nation. If you influence like what the previous speaker has said, if it impacts negatively on the children it becomes bad. Talking about influence from where you have been, you talked about influence as representatives who have rights which we were given and we should respect those rights. We want to say to the women and men, we should not abuse these rights because if we are not very careful, those rights can destroy our homes if people are not wise. So, with your influence you should teach others which rights are being referred to and how we should go forward so that our children’s homes stand.

With all these rights, you can see us with our grey hair and we are still with the women we got married to. Even these jackets that we are putting on are from our children because we taught them well. It is our desire that these rights are being mishandled because of the homes which are being broken. So, we want to encourage those we went to learn to go down to the grassroots and teach our children about our culture.

You talked about dressing, you see that young women nowadays are now putting on trousers that are too tight that you can see their body structures and you cannot even look twice at them. Long back, people would treat all children like their own. You could be beaten by a stranger as long as they are your elders. Mothers, fathers, grandfathers and grandmothers were fathers and mothers to all, but these days you find you cannot even chastise the children because they will ask who you are.  So bad is prevailing. We are saying, when it comes to dressing and it is not only about trousers but some of the things we are copying from the West and it is not part of our culture and it is rampant. I think with your influence, you should go down to the grassroots and teach people the right things.

There is a thing that I call rationality, which means that you are able to copy what is right and also share what you know is good. This issue of rationality, we should encourage it to women so that we uphold one another and uphold their talents because they help us as a society. When it comes to rationality, it is very important because it is the one which makes us appreciate other people. If you focus on the bad only, you will see that but you should give credit where it is due because those who cannot do things, do not want people who are able to, to do them.

The other thing that is important is respect. In the homes that we come from we are fathers. I want to thank you because you have given the fathers their position. They have given you the liberty to attend these workshops but when you are in your homes you should respect the husband and also try to uplift his life. For example, if you change the way you cook they will give credit where it is due. So, things that uplift the family are very good. So, if you respect us as men we will support you because you will teach your children to respect and also respect the elders. Elders are respected no matter how. They are respected in a good manner. We know that there are some men who are running away from their homes because of domestic violence. I am encouraging whoever is in this situation not to be violent but to sit down and talk to each other. Some women when they are talking to their husbands do not show any respect at all because they speak on top of their voices. Raising your voice does not solve anything because if you do that you are destroying your own home.

          The last point that I would want to say is on our representational role. We are here because we are coming from somewhere. The people who voted for us should see it befitting that they should vote for women because of their good works so that they will know that something good is coming from Parliament and not that women just go there to tell us about law making system but  you should be able to teach these women how to cook and bake. Long back, there were women’s clubs where women would be taught how to make bread. It is very important that women should be taught to be recreational. It really helps them. Women should also be involved in sport, cultural activities, singing and dancing so that they enjoy living. Nowadays, people are tense and they die from stress related illnesses because they are always thinking about problems. There are a few things that are exciting.  People no longer live long because they are always thinking of problems. They should get some refreshing moments.

          Long back we used to dance when there was a full moon in what we used to call “jenaguru”. It was very good and we would while up time. People would come from all areas and we would meet at night. If you look at me you can see that I was well groomed. There are a lot of things to do in Zimbabwe and it is not only politics that entertains people.  I want to thank you for your motion because it is very important. I thank you.

          HON. SEN. MUTSVANGWA: I move that the debate do now adjourn.

          HON. SEN. MUMVURI: I second.

          Motion put and agreed to.

          Debate to resume: Wednesday, 20th July, 2016.

MOTION

LEVELS OF CORRUPTION IN THE COUNTRY

          Fourth Order read: Adjourned debate on motion on monitoring the Executive performance in dealing with reported cases of corruption.

          Question again proposed.

          +HON. SEN. NCUBE: Thank you Mr. President. I would like to add my voice on the motion on corruption that was brought before this Senate by Senator B. Sibanda. I appreciate the opportunity given to me and before I continue Mr. President, I plead with the interpreters to listen carefully to Ndebele since they are native speakers of the language and say exactly what we are saying.  It disturbs us a lot that after the sitting we have to go and correct our speeches. I believe they are so much educated and I know that if they are not able to interpret exactly what we are saying, if they cannot interpret properly it is better we hire those who are competent on the job. Most of the times when we adjourn you will be told that your speech was not captured properly. I think it is our right to use the language one is comfortable with, for it is our mother language.

          The Constitution affords us an opportunity to use the 16 languages. You will realise that this actually disadvantages other Senators because after contributing and going through the Hansard, you take it back to the people who voted for you, you become a laughing stock. I really want to say this Mr. President because the things that are written in the Hansard are not actually what would have been said. If the interpreters are not able, they should say so, so that we hire people who are able to speak the language and are able to interpret.  They said that we are too fast when we are contributing our debates.  We have tried by all means and in my view I think this is sabotage. I do not know whether it is by choice so that we don’t contribute during the debates but I will not stop talking for our core job at Parliament is debating. I want them to understand this very well and they interpret what we would have said verbatim.  I thank you.

          Mr. President, I realise that Zimbabwe is among the ten countries that have so much corruption. It is counted amongst the ten countries that have too much corruption. A lot has been said by the speakers who have spoken before me that as it is we are facing so many challenges because of corruption. Those who are corrupt in this country, where are they? What is it that is being done to them? What is the end result?

          When God created this country, he gave us so many riches. There is nothing that we do not have in this country. We have all the things in this country. We have been given all the minerals in this country. Before I realised where the riches were coming from, the late Vice President Dr. Joshua Nkomo said when you reverse the word “lima”, you get the word money. All the riches that we have in this country, my question is how many people are rich in this country. The minerals that we have in this country are not supposed to benefit just a few but everyone. If this country was being led in a proper way, you will realise that we will not be in a situation that we are right now.  We are a laughing stock in the world because of our situation.

          When I heard that people where not being paid, it was more like a story, a folk tale that is being said and I could not understand it. There are so many people that we have seen coming out from the newspapers because of stealing or taking something that does not belong to them and nothing was done to them. In Zimbabwe, they say that when we have a tender, you will realise that is where there is so much of corruption when giving tenders.  It is difficult for you to accuse someone of stealing if you do not have evidence. There is a day when we had oral evidence in the Committee of Peace and Security.  Those that we have called to come and give oral evidence, one of them mentioned that when tenders are called, they come with different amounts and they are supposed to choose where there is less money. 

We realise that most of the tenders, especially to Government; they do not take a cheap tender.  A tender was called to put curtains in the Ministry of Higher and Tertiary Education, Science and Technology Development offices. There was a tender for $25000, $43000 and $56000.  Even when you do window shopping, there are cheap quality materials that you can find and there is no way you can buy the most expensive curtains when it is something that can be done by any tailor and it is not done using gold. This is just an example that I am giving you.  It is another way of bringing corruption.

There are so many boards that we have in our country.  These are other areas where there is corruption where you realise that one person belongs to different boards.  He or she can be a chairperson or a secretary and one person has more than 10 positions while there are so many people seated at home in our country and are not working.  Why should one person occupy all those positions?  Are you the only person possessing all the knowledge?

There is an issue of Mr. Muchechetere and also Cuthbert Dube.  Nothing was done to them.  There was a time when we were not able to be treated in hospitals. We had to make co-payments of US$5 and nothing was done to them. There is also the issue of Air Zimbabwe.  There are a lot of examples of corruption and you realise that nothing was done to all those people.  There are some instances where when people are availing themselves to give evidence, just disappear. 

At the National Railways of Zimbabwe, the people who were employed there went for a long time without being paid. Where are we going as a nation?  There are some students who get educated or do their courses, but for them to get vacancies either at college or for nursing, it is very difficult.   You will realise that someone with 10 points will not get a vacancy, while the one with three points will be given a vacancy. Yes, both of them would have passed, but for as long as you do not bribe, the child will struggle to get a vacancy. After the child has completed his or her studies, they will struggle again while a parent would have struggled a lot selling cows as a way of trying to further the education for the child.  At the end, as long as you are not known by those in leadership positions or would have bribed, they will not get employed. Where are we going as a nation? 

Such motions, when they are tabled in the House, people will be watching. People are so educated; they try even to google over the internet.  As Members of Parliament, we do not even know some of the things but nothing is being done.

The last thing that I want to say is, we are cash strapped as a nation.  We are being told that there is a cash crisis.  We do not know whether it is not there, but that is what we are being told.  When we try to start counting from all the scandals like Willowvale or GMB, nothing was done and you realise that there are some people who are busy causing corruption and nothing is being done to them. If one is able to get lot of money and build a big house, that will surprise everyone. Your kids are getting their education outside the country, where are you getting the money whilst we are saying the nation is cash crapped. 

It came out from the newspapers that Hon. Chinamasa’s son had US$8 million at the border and there is US$15 billion that just disappeared but nothing was done.  Now, people are not being paid. Almost everyone in this House took a loan from the bank and we are not able to pay back the loans.  As an MP, if you are failing to give someone a dollar or there is a funeral in your constituency and you fail to buy even cabbages when you go for 6 weeks without being paid, what I know is there is money in this country.  If it is not there then maybe, it might have been externalised to other countries.  I know that people whom I mentioned, there is a lot that has happened.  I thank you.

HON. SEN. MUSAKA:  I thank you Mr. President.  I wish to make a positive contribution to this debate raised by Senator Sibanda.  Mr. President, we all attended this seminar against corruption together.  I hope you all have this card.  It is illuminating that Hon. Sibanda brings up this debate on corruption.  My point is, this House, when we stand up to raise motions and when we debate motions; let us not be parochial, let us not be narrow but let us be deep and understand what we are doing. 

What I am trying to say here is, we were recalled on Thursday, 30 June on a Bill exactly meant to fight corruption together, but what we got in that debate – a concerted effort to oppose that Bill.  Here is a Bill intended to fight corruption at all levels of governance; national, local or urban, but what we got in that debate was a bit disturbing.  It is inconsistent.  When we bring this, we are actually calling for a Minister to bring about legislation to fight corruption.  Here is a case that was brought here and we had our Hon. Members of the opposition boycotting, refusing to pass the Bill.  Let us be consistent when we sit here.

HON. SEN. MARAVA:  On a point of order, Mr. President Sir.  Last week’s debate which the Hon. Senator is pointing at, the opposition was refusing the point of personalising a legislation.  The opposition was against the legislation being passed as caused by one particular individual, in that respect the Mayor of Harare.  So, we did not want the law to work in retrospect.  So, the Hon. Member should debate what he has stood up for.

THE TEMPORARY PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE (HON. SEN. TAWENGWA):  Hon. Musaka, please stick to the issue.

HON. SEN. MUSAKA:  Thank you Mr. President.  Yes, I will continue.  Like I said let us not be narrow but let us be broad.  The Bill was never intended to mention a particular individual.  It can be ZANU-PF, it can be anyone who is corrupt and you will face the law.  That was the intention of the Bill. Then we get so parochial and narrow minded and it is stifles debate. It stifles – [HON. SENATORS:  Inaudible interjections.]-

THE TEMPORARY PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE:  Hon. Musaka, please concentrate on the motion.  The Bill, which we discussed last week was about the Local Government.

HON. SEN. MUSAKA:  I thank you Hon. President.  Anyway, all I can say is, it is nice that together we should fight against corruption.  It is a nice motion and let us be consistent.  When Bills come, we pass them.  I thank you.

HON. SEN. CHIPANGA:  Mr. President, I rise to air my views on this important motion which was raised by Hon. Sibanda.  Mr. President, I was really amused to hear Hon. Sen. B. Sibanda for the first time saying, “we want to say”, “we” not “they” when he debated this issue.  It was amusing in that in the past, I had known him as a person who always say “they”.  Although at the end of the debate he cleverly quotes Professor Mete who says, “If they do not have the capacity to deal with this issue then they must stand down”, “they”. 

          Mr. President of the Senate, I want to say, whilst I agree totally with everything that was said in the motion, what I want to raise here is the fact that we do not seem to look at the definition of corruption before we debate.  We do not seem to worry about the distinction between theft and corruption.  All we say is, if someone steals money from where he works that is corruption.  We also want to say if someone negotiates his or her salary with a board that sleeps on duty then we say that is corruption.  Here I am looking at the case of Cuthbert Dube which has been repeatedly referred to as corruption which Government did nothing about.        

          Mr. President of the Senate, Mr. Dube negotiated his terms – I am not defending him but these are facts.  He negotiated his terms with a board that was sleepy and allowed him to receive over half a million dollars per month – he did not steal.  To call that corruption I think is a misnomer.  You cannot compare that for instance with the director of CMED who connived with someone and then they paid that someone for fuel which was not delivered, that is criminal.  We cannot also compare those with other cases like NSSA or Net One. 

          Mr. President of the Senate, having said that, the point I want to make is that corruption is one of those difficult cases to deal with.  Corruption in the whole world is one particular case where you do not have a complainant.  It is where two or three involved are all guilty parties and in cases like that you cannot get a witness and where there is no witness a case cannot be proved.  Unfortunately, our Constitution and the laws of this country embrace the principle that every individual is presumed innocent until proved guilty.  What that means basically is that until someone comes with evidence that someone stole then that person is not guilty.

          I am going to quote or use the name Sibanda, not our Hon. Sen. Sibanda here.  In other words, if we lived with a Mr. Sibanda in Magwegwe for 20 years and he was suffering like the rest of us, all of a sudden Mr. Sibanda buys a house in a suburb called Khumalo, a five acre plot, he is now driving a Pajero, he buys his wife a Mercedes Benz C-class, the children now go to school in their small cars and he is now able to go to Kariba and Cape Town on holiday.  We do not know how he is getting this money but we know something is wrong somewhere.  Can we then say the Government must arrest and send him to jail?  No, because there ought to be evidence and someone who comes with proof that when he was employed as some manager at the NRZ, he then gave a contract to some South African company who in the process, gave him some money which enabled him to buy a house in Benside, a five acre plot.   He now has five horses.  If you cannot get someone to come with this evidence, you cannot send that person to jail.

          This is why we have so many cases where we believe that, that person is corrupt.  That person corruptly got what he has but we cannot send him to jail.  What then do we need to do?  Mr. President of the Senate, I am suggesting that as legislators, we need to come up with a different set of legislation which deals particularly and specifically with corruption.  My view will be that, that law should get away from where the State is supposed to prove its case but that the accused should prove – in other words, we will go to Mr. Sibanda and say Sibanda, here is a form, fill in and tell us where you got the money, how you got the money and where you bought all this property from. 

          It will be then for him to prove that he legally got the money and if he fails, he shall be said to be guilty of corruption.  That has to be a separate set of legislation.  As things stand now, I am sorry to say so, squeal, complain, shout and say the Executive is not doing enough.  There is nothing that the Executive can do as long as we have this piece of legislation which says every individual is presumed innocent until proven guilty.  How can you prove if you do know where Mr. Sibanda got his money from or how he got it?  How can you send him to jail for something you do not know?  My suggestion therefore is, we need to look back and say whilst the laws as they stand are democratic and constitutional, there is need to deal with corruption and corruption cannot be dealt with the laws as they stand. 

          We can name – some people have tried to go as far back as Willowgate but for as long as there is no evidence and as long as there is no one particular individual who says in the process someone got money from me illegally and in the process, I lost this because this person got that from me, there is no way you can get this person convicted.  I agree that a nation that is corrupt will never prosper.   I agree totally but I would want to suggest that instead of keeping on saying “they”, which I said I was happy for the first time to hear Hon. Sen. B. Sibanda  said no, let us get away from that and say “we” as a nation need to look at this issue and say what shall we do.  My suggestion is that we need new legislation to deal with corruption.  I thank you.

          HON. SEN. MUTSVANGWA: Thank you Mr. President of the Senate.  I stand up to support the motion which was moved by Hon. Sen. B. Sibanda, a very important motion and I also want to thank the seconder.  It is true corruption has affected our slackening revenue collection in this country.  ZIMRA Chair of the board is on record saying eliminating corruption could easily increase revenue threefold.  Meaning that, if that is the case, then our National Budget could have been around US$12 billion – [HON. SENATORS: Hear, hear.] – then we could have fully bankrolled ZIM-ASSET within the three years, but because of corruption, we are stuck.

          Mr. President, corruption is the main reason why our economic growth is decreasing.  We are not living the lives that we are supposed to live.  The citizens of this country are the richest in the world, going by the natural resources per capita income – [HON. SENATORS: Hear, hear.] – Mr. President, as Members who have been elected by the people to represent them, it is critical that we do our work to uphold the Constitution.  Members of Parliament do read. In the past, we have been reading about leading medical aid societies unsustainably remunerating themselves with hundreds of thousands of dollars every month. At the end, those who contribute end up failing to access the service. 

          Mr. President, to demonstrate how corruption is now deeply entrenched in our mental faculties, young children do not want to study medicine, engineering or being a pilot but they want to be a ‘dealer.’  Commuter omnibus drivers, bribe cops in broad day light.  What are we teaching our children as mothers and fathers?  What are we teaching them to become when they grow up as leaders?  We applaud one of the Vice Presidents of the country who was on record saying, it is high time we walk the talk on corruption and ensure that those who are on the wrong side of the law are ruthlessly punished irrespective of their position or standing in society. There should not be any sacred cows when it comes to corruption.

          We need to weed out corruption, especially from our public institutions.  The Finance and Economic Development Minister, Hon. Chinamasa once said, and I quote, “the tendering system in Zimbabwe is the capital city of corruption.”  We do not also forget our audit reports that the Comptroller and Auditor-General had been announcing on our public institutions.  Our country needs strong and accountable institutions that meaningfully contribute to economic growth. 

Mr. President, we are aware that the Constitution provides for the Zimbabwe Anti-Corruption Commission (ZAC).  ZAC is therefore a constitutional body.  It is this Parliament, it is us as Members of Parliament who should never ever take a back seat in upholding that Constitution.  We applaud the recent move of ZAC to OPC, this lifts it above Ministerial turf wars, accusations of undue manipulation, selective investigation, settling of scores – [HON. SENATORS: Hear, hear.] – ZAC should announce an open door policy to all whistle blowers from all walks of life, all political groups, all factions if there are any or any party.  Let us all move and help ZAC to stamp out corruption in our society.  If you hate someone and decide to report a case against them, is it also not possible for the other hated party to report to ZAC.  I am sure they do not decline such information which is helpful to stamp out corruption in our system.

Countries with very strict anti-corruption regimes like Sweden, Singapore, Hon Kong and Germany actually notch high in national development.  So, we cannot develop if we do not stamp out corruption.  Our parastatals in this country used to be admired continentally for their service delivery in terms of economic enablers, in terms of water, transport, electricity, telecoms and many others.  Now, they are a laughing stock.

We need a strong ZAC with sharp teeth to root out pervasive culture of theft and abuse of tax payer and public funds in this country.  As legislators, we need to also have eagle eyes to make sure that we do stop this rot in our society if we can all come together.  I liked it when somebody said, ‘it is not about they, it is about us altogether.’  – [HON. SENATORS: Hear, hear.] – We need to work together to root out corruption so that our economy can develop.  We can give back what our people are supposed to get from this society.  I thank you.

*HON. SEN. CHIEF CHARUMBIRA: Thank you Mr. President.  I want to thank Hon. Sen. Sibanda who moved this motion and the seconder.  I was not ready but as I was following the debate, things started coming up.  I know that there are people like leaders who speak.  We are all leaders, if there is money; cars are bought for us under the Parliamentary schemes for us to move about as we serve people.  There are some who said that we work for money but we die for a cause.  There are times when you work for money but I do not think you only came for money; you also came for a calling representing the people.  It should not just end on getting money; we are also here for a cause.

However, in that cause, you also have to survive. This means that the people who voted for you should live well.  This issue was raised, and everyone from the Head of State talks about the bad practice of corruption.  This is not a political issue.  It is wrong; this is not a political issue because President Mugabe attacked corruption on a number of times.  The Vice Presidents have done so, everybody has done so; do not be intimidated when you are debating an issue like this.  Two years ago, one of our relatives died in South Africa.  So, they had to spend the whole day at the Beitbridge Border Post because there was something that the health officials at the border had to check on the corpse and the Zimbabwean side was demanding an amount of 3 000 Rands, so they had to pay for the body to be repatriated to Zimbabwe.  We then come into this august House and fail to condemn such a thing.  So, what are we here for? 

          Even if it is politics, sometimes some of us are going to miss heaven because of these political issues. So you should be very wary of things that you support.  We meet a lot of corrupt activities.  Someone wanted to get a driver’s licence.  So, he went on to do about eight lessons then proceeded to a road test.  I told him that I was prepared to give him more money for lessons but he said my instructor said you can give me US$370 then get your licence.  However, I told him that you have not trained enough.  In other words, he bought the drivers licence and those are the kind of drivers who cause accidents on the roads. 

          So, when things like those are taking place in society, I think as people’s representatives, let us be true leaders of the people – this is not good.  These days, it is better at the Registrar General’s office.  A few years back, one had to pay so that their papers will be processed quickly but this would mean that the country is at the cross roads.

          As Chief Charumbira and also some of you Hon. Senators, no one wants to take our money for corrupt gains because they know that they will be in trouble.  However, this happens to the poor, it is the poor who are in trouble when it comes to this.  They do not have any money yet they are the ones who have to go and sell their goats so that their papers will be processed.  A country which survives on dealings is not good but you should know that when it comes to corruption, countries are not at the same level, some are really bad and some are mediocre.  So, as leaders we should do our part.  It is our role that we should stamp out corruption as leaders, especially when we come to Parliament where we say we are representatives of the people.

          There are two people who debated before I stood up, Hon. Senator Chipanga is a very experienced man and has seen a lot.  However, he has talked about Cuthbert Dube of which he has said the truth but technically and legally, Dube was given a contract by a board which he had to sign.  Yes, Dube is corrupt but the most corrupt people are the ones who made him to sign the contract yet I have never had Parliament making deliberation on suing that board.  No one wants to dare touch that board and up to now, Parliament is just debating like a toothless dog.  There is nothing that happens yet people are crying about Dube’s case.  He was given a contract which he signed.  He was not getting that money from the safe but it was written.  No one wants to dare touch that board and up to now, Parliament is just debating like a toothless dog.  There is nothing that happens yet people are crying about Dube’s case.  He was given a contract which he signed, he was not getting that money from the safe but it was written in the contract.  The contract stipulated the money which he was supposed to be given.  So, the person who should be sued is the person who made him to sign the contract. 

          How come we are quiet as Parliament? We should push and re-direct the case to the people who made Dube to sign the contract.  There was a point that was raised that corruption needs proof beyond any reasonable doubt but I think it is two sided.  If we want to convict a person who has committed a crime, it is simple but when it comes to workplaces and you are the Minister, you are the Permanent Secretary and there is a scandal which is clear, we cannot point a figure that you were involved.  However, because you are the leader, you should resign from that job.  The criminality aspect is not in the open, we cannot prove it, we cannot pinpoint the person but we know that US$3 million is missing.  That is enough for management to be sacked so that that US$3 million is repaid and that is a civil matter.  We do not need proof beyond reasonable doubt but proof on probability. 

          In terms of labour laws, one should be sacked but to put one in prison, we cannot.  When it comes to prison, they want proof beyond reasonable doubt.  So, wherever corruption is rampant, if we give you some work to do and some money is missing, even if we do not have much proof but because funds are missing, one should just step down since you would have not handled your job properly. 

          I know two people who have been in scandals but when it comes to criminal law, there is a problem.  It says if someone is convicted, you should go and arrest that person.  If the money is in his account, it remains his.  I know a lot of people who were jailed and served for 12 years then after their jail term, they started buying property with those funds and they have become rich that people are even begging money from them.  Ours now, the African court that is where we come in, we should amend our laws because we do not operate that way.  If you are convicted, you should return the things. So you cannot build a House when you were convicted.  If you do anything with the money, you will be convicted.  If our children think that if they obtain their degrees and see that they will not be able to proceed, they think of stealing and bank the money somewhere, then you convict me – send me to jail, after my release I will use my money.  That law will promote people to steal.  We can cry loud but Parliament is to blame.  If you visit our Constitution, you will find that Parliament as one of the three arms of Government is the one with an oversight role because the courts only interpret the laws that we make from here.  So, we need to make good laws, to ensure good oversight and also make a follow up on the oversight.  As of now, we are not doing that oversight. 

          We can pacify each other but the fact is that Parliament is the problem.  If you look where Parliament came from, the reason why you are here is because of Montesquieu who argued that – long back the King was the one who had all powers in the country but he said that we should separate the powers and should not have one centre of power.  There should be an Executive, the Legislature and the Judiciary.   Long back the King was everything, the Executive, Judiciary and Legislature.  That is why it is being separated from the King, and then comes us who are elected so that we represent the people and look at the laws but we are doing nothing.  We cannot practice it, people are crying, they are losing money through bribes because if you do not pay a bribe it will be stagnant, but the Parliament is there – nothing is coming up.  Five years it lapses, then some Members of Parliament are elected but people keep on crying.  What I am only saying is Honourable Senators, it is high time we have muscles.

          There are certain issues we need to incorporate, whether you are from which party because it is bad for the people.  If you want to be a good leader – we say we work for money but when we are here it is for a cause because people have entrusted us.  Our people are suffering, we have talked about road blocks; I once asked a combi driver how much they  make a day, he told me that they make about US$30 but US$5 is for the police and they have to budget that on a daily basis.  Parliament is there and this is happening under their nose and you are being referred to as Honourables; driving your Ford Rangers but people are crying out loud and you are not doing anything.  Mr. President, the poor are crying out there.  I meet them every day and they tell me about the bribes they pay and they wonder why we come here every week if we are not protecting them.  Thank you Mr. President. 

          HON. SEN. B. SIBANDA: I move that the debate do now adjourn.

          HON. SEN. NCUBE: I second.

          Motion put and agreed to.

          Debate to resume: Wednesday, 20th July, 2016.

MOTION

DETERIORATION IN THE ROADS AND RAILWAY TRANSPORTATION SYSTEMS

     Fifth Order read: Adjourned debate on motion on alarming incidents of road carnage due to dilapidated infrastructure, obsolete vehicles and human error.

     Question again proposed.

     HON. SEN. MUSAKA: I move that the debate do now adjourn.

     HON. SEN. CHIPANGA: I second.

          Motion put and agreed to.

          Debate to resume: Wednesday, 20th July, 2016

MOTION

REPORT OF THE DELEGATION TO THE FIRST AFRO-ARAB LEGISLATORS AND BUSINESS SUMMIT

          Sixth Order read: Adjourned debate on motion on the Report of the First Afro-Arab Legislators and Business Summit held in Addis Ababa.

          Question again proposed.

          HON. SEN. MUMVURI: I move that the debate be now adjourn.

          HON. SEN. MOHADI: I second.

          Motion put and agreed to.

          Debate to resume: Wednesday, 20th July, 2016.

MOTION

CONSTITUTIONAL REQUIREMENTS CENTRED ON DEVOLUTION OF POWER

Seventh Order read: Adjourned debate on motion on the call for

 Government to implement the devolution of power as provided for in the Constitution.

Question again proposed.

HON. SEN. NCUBE: I move that debate do now adjourn.

HON. SEN. MOHADI: I second.

Motion put and agreed to.

Debate to resume: Wednesday, 20th July, 2016.

MOTION

RESUSCITATION OF THE ZAMBEZI WATER PROJECT

Eighth Order read: Adjourned debate on motion on the

 resuscitation of the Zambezi Water Project.

          Question again proposed.

          HON. SEN. B. SIBANDA: I move that the debate do now adjourn.

          HON. SEN. MARAVA: I second.

          Motion put and agreed to.

          Debate to resume: Wednesday, 20th July, 2016.

MOTION

FOOD SECURITY AND NUTRITION CHALLENGES

          Ninth Order read: Adjourned debate on motion on malnutrition among urban and rural communities.

          Question again proposed.

HON. SEN. D.T. KHUMALO: I move that debate do now adjourned.

HON. SEN. MARAVA: I second.

Motion put and agreed to.

Debate to resume: Wednesday, 20th July, 2016.

MOTION

REPORT OF THE 133RD  ASSEMBLY OF THE INTERPARLIAMENTARY UNION (IPU)

          Tenth Order read: Adjourned debate on motion on the Zimbabwe Delegation Report on the 133rd   Assembly of the Inter-Parliamentary Union.

          Question again proposed.

THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF MEDIA, INFORMATION AND BROADCASTING SERVICES (HON. SEN. MATHUTHU): I move that debate do now adjourned.

Motion put and agreed to.

Debate to resume: Wednesday, 20th July, 2016.

MOTION

REHABILITATION OF WAR SHRINES AND RECOGNITION OF DEPARTED WAR LIBERATORS

          Eleventh Order read: Adjourned debate on motion calling for the rehabilitation and maintenance of War Shrines.

HON. SEN. MOHADI: I move that debate do now adjourned.

HON. SEN. CHIMHINI: I second.

Motion put and agreed to.

Debate to resume: Wednesday, 20th July, 2016.

MOTION

CONGRATULATORY MESSAGE TO HIS EXCELLENCY THE PRESIDENT AS CHAIRMAN OF AFRICAN UNION

          Twelfth Order read: Adjourned debate on motion to congratulate His Excellency, the President Cde. R.G. Mugabe and the Government of Zimbabwe on successfully leading the African Union (AU) and Southern African Development Community (SADC) as Chairperson.

          HON. SEN. CHIEF MUSARURWA: I move that debate do now adjourned.

HON. SEN. MUMVURI: I second.

Motion put and agreed to.

Debate to resume: Wednesday, 20th July, 2016.

MOTION

TRADITIONAL CHIEFS MANDATE

          Thirteenth Order read: Adjourned debate on motion on the role of traditional leaders.

          HON. SEN. MAWIRE: I move that debate be now adjourned.

HON. SEN. MOHADI: I second.

Motion put and agreed to.

Debate to resume: Wednesday, 20th July, 2016.

On the motion of THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF MEDIA, INFORMATION AND BROADCASTING SERVICES (HON. SEN. MATHUTHU), the Senate adjourned at Five Minutes past Four o’clock p.m.

 

Senate Hansard SENATE HANSARD 19 JULY 2016 VOL 25 NO 62