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NATIONAL ASSEMBLY HANSARD 11 JULY 2024 VOL 50 NO 69

PARLIAMENT OF ZIMBABWE

Thursday, 11^th July, 2024

The National Assembly met at a Quarter-past Two o’clock p.m.

PRAYERS

(THE HON. DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair)

MOTION

LEAVE TO MOVE WITHDRAWAL OF MOTION FROM THE ORDER PAPER

HON. BAJILA: Madam Speaker, I seek leave of the House to withdraw Motion Number 21 on today’s Order Paper.

HON. MATEWU:  I second.

Motion put and agreed to.

MOTION

WITHDRAWAL OF MOTION FROM THE ORDER PAPER

HON. BAJILA: I move that Motion Number 21 on today’s Order Paper be withdrawn.

HON. MATEWU:  I second.

Motion; With leave, withdrawn.

MOTION

APPROVAL FOR THE RATIFICATION OF THE SADC PROTOCOL ON INDUSTRY

THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF INDUSTRY AND COMMERCE (HON. MODI):  I move the motion standing in my name that;

WHEREAS Section 327 (2) (a) of the Constitution of Zimbabwe provides that an international treaty…..

HON. MATAMBO:  On a point of order, the Hon. Minister is not audible.  Can he please speak up? 

THE HON. DEPUTY SPEAKER:  You may proceed Hon. Minister.

HON. MODI: …. which has been concluded or executed by or under the authority of the President does not bind Zimbabwe until it has been approved by Parliament;

          AND WHEREAS the Republic of Zimbabwe signed the SADC Protocol on Industry on the 18^th of August 2019. Zimbabwe is yet to ratify the Protocol;

          AND WHEREAS the Protocol will only enter into force thirty (30) days after two-thirds of the Member States have deposited their instruments of ratification.  To date, only six (6) of the sixteen (16) Member States that signed the Protocol have completed the ratification process; 

          AND WHEREAS the Republic of Zimbabwe is desirous to ratify the said Protocol; 

          NOW, THEREFORE, in terms of section 327 (2) (a) of the Constitution of Zimbabwe, this House resolves that the aforesaid Protocol be and is hereby approved. 

          HON. MUTSEYAMI:  On a point of order.  I would be very grateful to debate, however, I did not hear anything.  I could only hear the part where the Minister said Zimbabwe.  Everything else was inaudible.  With all due respect, I could not hear a word.  I am being genuine…

HON. TOGAREPI: On a point of order…

HON. MUTSEYAMI:  I am still on the floor Hon. Government Chief Whip.  I could not hear anything – if you may indulge and advise as to how we can debate.

THE HON. DEPUTY SPEAKER:  But the motion is on the Order Paper Hon. Mutseyami.

HON. MUTSEYAMI: I fully appreciate that but I have not received the Order Paper.  I am being genuine.   The only part I could pick was Zimbabwe, Zimbabwe – [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] –

HON. TOGAREPI:  Madam Speaker, I think the Hon. Member Mutseyami is just trying to – [HON. MEMBERS: Gara pasi hapasati pave ne ruling.] –

THE HON. DEPUTY SPEAKER: My ruling is that the motion is on the Order Paper.  We should all read the Order Paper.

HON. TOGAREPI: Madam Speaker, I would like to comment on two issues. Firstly, I think we have to go back to induction with some of the Members – [HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.] – because a point of order has its definition and it looks like it is being abused in this House.  We do not hear about the particular order that has been violated.  If you do not hear me, is that violating a Standing Order?

Secondly, Hon. Members receive soft copies of Order Papers and also if they want the hard copy, they can still get them.  Hon. Members should just be calm – [HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.] –

          Motion put and agreed to.

MOTION

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE, LEGAL AND PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (HON. Z. ZIYAMBI):  I move that Order of the Day Number 2 be stood over until Order of the Day Number 3 has been disposed of.

Motion put and agreed to.

COMMITTEE STAGE

PRIVATE VOLUNTARY ORGANISATIONS AMENDMENT BILL [H. B. 2, 2024]

Third Order read: Committee Stage: Private Voluntary Organisations Amendment Bill [H.B. 2, 2024].

House in Committee.

On Clause 1:

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE, LEGAL AND PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (HON. Z. ZIYAMBI):  Hon. Chair, I am proposing to substitute the long title on page 1 of the Bill with the new long title. I will delete the long title and substitute with the following;

To amend the Private Voluntary Organisations Act [Chapter 17:05]; the Money Laundering and Proceeds of Crime Act [Chapter 09:24] (No. 4 of 2013); the Criminal Matters (Mutual Assistance) Act [Chapter 09:06] (No. 13 of 1990); the Criminal Law (Codification and Reform) Act [Chapter 9:23] and the National Social Security Authority Act [Chapter 17:04]; and to provide for matters connected therewith.”

Hon. Chair, the change was necessitated in that this one was very long and it was just speaking to one item on the compliance with FATF but if you look at the Bill, it covers a lot of issues, hence when we took into consideration, feedback that we got, this necessitated the amendment that I am proposing.  I so submit Hon. Chair.

Amendment to Clause 1 put and agreed to.   

Clause 1, as amended, put and agreed to.

          On New Clause 2 inserted after Clause 1:

          THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE, LEGAL AND PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (HON. Z. ZIYAMBI):  Hon. Chair, I propose the amendments in my name that the Bill be amended on page 1 under the part where it reads, ‘amendments to Private Voluntary Organisations Act’, by inserting the following Clause, and then re-numbering the subsequent Clauses accordingly.  In other words, I am proposing that we put a preamble to the Bill as it fully appears on the Order Paper to show where we are coming from when enacting this particular Bill. 

          2 Insertion of preamble to Cap. 17:15

Delete the enacting formula of the principal Act and substituted the following—

“WHEREAS it is recognised that private voluntary organisations play an important role in serving the public good, supporting development, social cohesion and tolerance within society, promoting democracy, respect for the rule of law, and providing accountability mechanisms that can contribute to improved governance;

AND WHEREAS it is recognised that private voluntary organisations can complement the national government in all spheres of public service delivery without derogating from the primary role of Government of Zimbabwe in that regard;

AND WHEREAS it is recognised that the realisation of Zimbabwe’s development goals depend on the contribution of not only the public and private sectors, but private voluntary organisations as well;

AND WHEREAS the Government of Zimbabwe desires to establish an enabling environment for private voluntary organisations by means, among other measures, of improving the regulatory and institutional framework for private voluntary organisations;

NOW THEREFORE be it enacted by the Parliament and President of Zimbabwe as follows:”

HON. MUSHORIWA:  Hon. Chair, I do not have a problem in having a preamble as alluded to by the Minister, but the reading of the preamble and you look at the 1^st, 2^nd, 3^rd and 5^th paragraphs, they are fine but I have a problem with the 4^th paragraph where it says, ‘…and where the Government of Zimbabwe desires to establish an enabling environment for PVOs.’  I am not so sure if the provisions that are before us in the Bill really create an enabling environment.  I will be happier if the Minister could delete this paragraph so that we then maintain paragraphs 1, 2, 3, and 5 of his preambles and leave out 4, which I think does not really serve the purpose in respect to this Bill. 

          THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE, LEGAL AND PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (HON. Z. ZIYAMBI:  Hon. Chair, that is the whole basis of legislation, to lay out an enabling environment that allows to know how you operate unless if Hon. Mushoriwa now has a new definition of what the work of the legislature is all about.  Maybe he can clarify.  This is the standard.  We put in legislation to lay out how we should operate.  We set the limits of how we are to operate and that is an enabling environment.  So, I move that we proceed.

          Amendment to new Clause 2 put and agreed to.

          New Clause 2, as amended, put and agreed to.

          On Clause 2, now Clause 3:

          HON. MUSHORIWA: I move the amendment standing in my name that:

CLAUSE 2 

(Amendment of section 2 of Cap. 17:05) the Bill is amended – (a) In line 18 on page 1 of the Bill, by deletion of subparagraph (i).

(b)   In line 32 on page 2 of the Bill, in the new definition of “Office”, to delete “section 3” and to substitute “section 5”.

Specifically, I think the Minister has already conceded to this through his amendments in other parts of the Bill. This amendment basically seeks to restore definition of board in the Act. We are adjusting the number of sections that will establish the Office of the Registrar. This one is straight forward. The amendment seeks to restore the existing definition of board in the Act and we adjust the sections that deal with the Office of the Registrar.

I was saying that Hon. Minister, you have in a way, conceded to this through some of the amendments that you have already passed. 

          Amendment to Clause 2, now Clause 3 put and agreed to.

          Clause 2, now Clause 3, as amended, put and agreed to.

          On Clause 3, now Clause 4:

          HON. MUSHORIWA: I move the amendment standing in my name that:

• In lines 27 to 31 on page 3 of the Bill, by the deletion of all the words between the heading of the clause and the heading of the new section 3 which the Bill will insert in the Act, and substitution of:

“3 New section substituted for section 5 of Cap. 17:05

Section 5 of the principal Act is repealed and the following section is substituted—

“5 Office of Registrar of Private Voluntary Organisations”.

          Between lines 27 and 28 on page 4 of the Bill, by the insertion of the following new subsection, the remaining subsections of section 3 to be renumbered accordingly:

“(5) In the exercise of his or her functions under this Act, the Registrar shall consult the board and act in accordance with such general or specific directions as the board may give him or her.”

In terms of our Order Numbers, I think there is a convergence and there is an amendment that was made by the Minister in respect to Clause 3 that I want to raise so that we could actually speak on the same breath. On Clause 3, what we intend to do is to repeal the existing Part 2 because the clause talks of the repeal of Part 2 of the principal Act. My clause will move this provision which repeals Part 2 of the Act which establishes the board. This is in tandem with the adopted amendment on Clause 2 that we have done. What it basically does is that Part 2 will remain in Act. The amendment will also insert a new sub section giving the board power to issue a directive to the Registrar.

          If you note on page 4, what we have done is that we have put a new No. 5 which basically says that the …

          THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE, LEGAL AND PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (HON. Z. ZIYAMBI): On a point of clarification. The way the amendments have been put on the Order Paper is not correct. Hon Mushoriwa’s amendments were supposed to come after mine because in the current Act, we do not have provision for a board. We had the Registrar and the Minister. Now, I have brought in an amendment and then his amendment will come after mine now. The way it is now, he will struggle to explain it before I introduce my own amendments.

          Hon. Z. Ziyambi having approached the Chair.

          On Clause 3, now Clause 4:

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE, LEGAL AND PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (HON. Z. ZIYAMBI): Mr. Chairman, I move the amendments standing in my name that the Bill is amended on pages 3 to 8, by the deletion of clause 3 (Now clause 4) and substitute the following Clause—

 New Part substituted for Part II of Cap. 17:15

Part II of the principal Act is repealed and the following Part is substituted—

“PART II

PRIVATE VOLUNTARY ORGANIZATIONS BOARD AND OFFICE OF THE REGISTRAR OF PRIVATE VOLUNTARY ORGANISATIONS

“3 Private Voluntary Organisations Board

• In this section—

“northern region”, for the purposes of this Section, means the region of Zimbabwe covered Harare Metropolitan Province, Manicaland, Mashonaland Central Province, Mashonaland East Province and Mashonaland West Province;

“ordinarily reside”, with reference to a person ordinarily residing in the northern or southern region, means a person having his or her usual place of residence within any one of the provinces constituting the region concerned;

“southern region”, for the purposes of this section, means the region of Zimbabwe covered Bulawayo Metropolitan Province, Masvingo Province, Matabeleland North Province, Matabeleland South Province and Midlands Province;

• There is hereby established a board to be known as the Private Voluntary Organisations Board which shall exercise the functions conferred upon it by this Act.
• Subject to this section, the Board shall consist of—
  • eight representatives nominated by such private voluntary organisation, association, institution or other organization of private voluntary organisations or organizations which the Minister considers are representative of private voluntary organisations, of whom—
    • four members, at the time of their nomination, ordinarily resided in the northern region for an uninterrupted period of at least six months before their nomination; and
    • four members, at the time of their nomination, ordinarily resided in the southern region for an uninterrupted period of at least six months before their nomination; and
  • one representative from each of the following Ministries—
    • the Ministry for which the Minister is responsible;
    • the Ministry responsible for health and child welfare;
    • the Ministry responsible for justice;
    • the Ministry responsible for finance;  
    • the Ministry responsible for foreign affairs;

(d) the Registrar, an ex officio (but nonvoting).

• Before making an appointment in terms of subsection (2), the Minister shall call upon the association, organization, institution or Ministry concerned to nominate such number of persons as the Minister may specify who, in its opinion, are suitable and available for appointment as members of the Board:

Provided that the Minister may—

• appoint a person to be a member of the Board who has not been so nominated and may decline to appoint any person so nominated;
• where the Minister has called for nominations in terms of this subsection in respect of any appointment to the Board and no nominations have been made in respect of such appointment within such period as he or she may determine when calling for such nominations, appoint any person to be a member of the Board whether or not, in the Minister’s his opinion, the person so appointed is able to represent the views of the body whose nominations were called for.

• Members of the Board shall be appointed by the Minister for such period, not exceeding three years, as the Minister may specify on their appointment.
• The Minister shall designate one of the members to be the Chairperson of the board.
• A member of the board who is not in the full-time employment of the State, a statutory body or a local authority shall be paid, out of moneys appropriated for that purpose by Parliament, such remuneration and allowances as may be prescribed.
• The meetings and proceedings of the board shall be as may be prescribed.

• Functions of the board

The functions of the board shall be—

• subject to this Act, to consider and approve or not approve every application for registration provisionally approved by the Registrar in terms of section --- and every

provisional cancellation or amendment of a certificate of registration effected by the Registrar in terms of section-----; and

• to hear representations by any association, organisation or institution claiming entitlement to be registered as a private voluntary organisation; and
• to advise the Minister and registered private voluntary organizations in respect of any matter arising out of the administration or operation of this Act or any other matter referred to it by the Minister or the Registrar,
• to promote and encourage the co-ordination of the activities of registered private voluntary organisations having similar or related objects; and
• to submit to the Minister an annual report concerning the administration and operation of this Act.

• Office of the Registrar of Private Voluntary Organisations
  • There shall be an Office of the Registrar of Private Voluntary Organisations in the Ministry responsible for social welfare, in which shall be lodged the register of private voluntary organisations.
  • The Office shall be headed by a Registrar of Private Voluntary Organisations who shall exercise general supervision and direction of the registry and shall be assisted by one or more Assistant Registrars, inspectors and such other officers as may be necessary for the proper administration of this Act, whose offices shall be public offices and form part of the Public Service:

Provided that until an appointment of a Registrar is made, the person for the time being holding the office of Director of Social Welfare shall be the Registrar.

• Subject to this Act, the Registrar shall—
  • consider and determine every application for the provisional registration and every proposed cancellation or amendment of a certificate of registration; and
  • hear representations by any association, organization or institution claiming entitlement to be registered as a private voluntary organisation; and
  • advise the Minister and registered private voluntary organisations in respect of any matter arising out of the administration or operation of this Act or any other matter referred to it by the Minister or the Registrar; and
  • to promote and encourage the co-ordination of the activities of registered private voluntary organisations having similar or related objects; and
  • to submit to the Minister an annual report concerning the administration and operation of this Act; and
  • maintain at his or her office a Register of Private Voluntary Organisations in which he or she shall enter all such particulars in relation to the registration of private voluntary organisations and their constitutions as he or she is required to enter by or in terms of this Act or any other enactment or decision of the court;
• The Register shall be open to inspection during office hours by any member of the public on payment of the prescribed fee, if any:

Provided that the Registrar shall endeavour to create and maintain up to date a website which, among other things, will enable members of the public to have access to the Register at all hours.

• Subject to the directions of the Registrar, the other officers referred to in subsection (1) shall perform such of the Registrar’s functions as the Registrar may assign to them.
• The Registrar shall have power to delegate any of his or her powers to any officer other than the power of delegation.
• The Registrar may in writing authorise an assistant registrar, inspector or other officer referred to in subsection (2) to exercise any of the functions of a Registrar under this Act.
• Subsection (7) shall not be construed as limiting the power of the Registrar to delegate his or her functions under any other law.
• The Registrar shall provide every inspector with a document identifying him or her as an

inspector, and the inspector shall produce it on request by any interested person.”.

Chair, I am proposing substitution of Clause 3, which becomes Clause 4 now as it appears on page 884 of the Order Paper. Basically, that is the new introduction, to take into consideration the representations that we got from CSOs as well as public hearings. The new Clause will also cover functions of the Board, office of the private voluntary organisations. We reintroduce the provisions that are in the current Act. The only difference now being that we have subdivided Northern Region and Southern Region and redefined the powers of the Registrar and what they are supposed to do. I submit Chair.

HON. MUSHORIWA: The new clause, as submitted by the Minister talks to the board. The existing board has 15 and we had about 10 people coming from the civic society. The number is now going to be reduced to eight, which I think needs to be relooked into because I believe 10 would have been a good number to maintain. Secondly, Hon. Minister, I am not so sure whether the sequence there is the proper way, where if you say Northern region, you have demarcated the Northern Region, which is fine. You then put ordinarily reside. Would the ordinarily reside paragraph not to come after the Southern region so that at least we have got Northern, Southern and ordinarily reside.

My major reason to stand is on page 885, in respect to, the Minister shall designate one of the members to be chairperson of the board. I wanted a proviso in this manner to say that the Minister shall designate two members of the board to be Chair and Deputy Chair of the board, provided that the chair shall be a nominee from the private organisation. So, that proviso will be good for the organisation. I do not think it is fair to have a board being chaired by any of the Ministry’s employees to this board. This would be my submission.

THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: Hon. Mushoriwa, where do you want that proviso to go?

HON. Z. ZIYAMBI:  I got him.

THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: It is okay.

HON. BAJILA:  Thank you Chair. I wish to also concur with Hon. Mushoriwa on the question of the chair and the vice chair and also add that the proviso must clarify that the chair and the deputy must be of different gender. Also, in the appointment of the board, there is reference that says the Minister can then appoint from any number that would have been given from the PVOs; but there is a proviso that says, the Minister can decide also to appoint someone who has not been nominated by anyone. I wish to propose that the Minister should be guided by nominations from organisations that exist.

The proviso which allows the Minister to appoint anyone, even if they have not been nominated from the organisations in the region makes that requirement for a nomination tokenistic. It is about ticking boxes that it exists in the law. If it exists in the law and the same law makes it okay for the Minister to ignore those nominations and appoints from outside nominations, it makes it of no use to exist in that manner because in the preponderance of cases, we will have appointments from outside the nominations by the organisations.

THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: Hon. Bajila, order! Which part of the Bill are you talking about?

HON. BAJILA:  I am reading from where it says 4. 1. It says before making an appointment, in terms of subsection (2), the Minister shall call upon the association, organisation, institution…

HON. Z. ZIYAMBI:  Sorry. Where are you reading from?

HON. BAJILA:  I am reading from the document which was put on the Order Paper.

HON. Z. ZIYAMBI: Which page?

HON. BAJILA:  It is not appearing with page on the Order Paper, on the Minister’s amendments, under the board. There is the part that says, (3) Private Voluntary Organisations Board. Then, I am now on (4) from that (3). The 4 immediately after 3, which says, before making an appointment in terms of (2), the Minister shall call upon the association, organisation, institution or Ministry concerned to nominate such number of persons as the Minister may specify, who in its opinion are suitable and available for appointment as members of the board, provided that the Minister may appoint a person to be a member of the board who has not been so, nominated and may decline to appoint any person so nominated.

This is the essence of my debate that the persons who must be appointed must be the persons so nominated. This proviso here, says the Minister can appoint someone who has not been nominated anywhere and this is the basis of my debate. Are you with me Chair?

THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

HON. BAJILA: Thank you.

HON. KADEMAUNGA: Thank you Chair. I concur with the two previous speakers and would like to add that on subsection 3 (a), where it speaks about 8 representatives nominated by private voluntary organisations.  I think that we need to amend that one to include fifty-fifty provision on gender. It is an important Clause as it is in the Constitution as highly aspirational goal. We need also a consideration of youths and persons with disabilities to be included on the board members. 

In addition, on the members, it says four per region.  I agree that the number must be increased to ten. Further, it must be one per province so that there is no province that is left out in terms of representation.  Furthermore, I think that the five representatives who are coming from ministries must be ex-officio members with no voting rights so that we increase the self-regulatory capacity of the PVOs who will be in that board together with these members.  I thank you.

HON. TOGAREPI: Thank you Mr. Chairman.  I would want to say if members are coming from these organisations that are going to recommend people, they are recommending. That is my observation and that is what the law is saying.  They are recommending people and in the opinion of the Minister, they may even recommend somebody who may not be fit to be in that position. The Minister must be given the leeway to also make a decision. If there is no latitude for the Minister to do that, it means these people can just appoint their people and they start operating.  In my view, I think while the Minister will consider those recommendations, he must also be given by the same law, the authority to deny those whose standing is not good enough to sit on those positions. Thank you.

HON. MUGWADI:  I find this my pleasure to add my voice on the Section in question, which allows the Minister to appoint someone who may not have been nominated by the organisations in question.  I must say that this is reasonable discretion and it falls within the normal levels of discretion allowable to ministers or public officials for that matter.  Therefore, there appears to be completely nothing amiss with this provision.  In fact, it also provides guidance to the organisations in question. In fact, onus is on them to appoint people of repute who may not fall short of the expectations of the authority, which is the Minister. 

It should not be debated or put in a context as if it were that the minister would be eager to disappoint their nominations but the onus is theirs also, to appoint people of a positive repute, who may not fall far short from the expectations of the Minister. There is nothing amiss in legal terms in terms of this discretion. It is within the allowable parameters of discretion for the Minister.

HON. MALINGANISO: Thank you Chair. One of the anomalies bedeviling PVOs is that they have become family entities, where maybe, myself, my wife and my cousin will become a body of a PVO. When the question of nominations to the board then arises, it follows therefore that what we will recommend or who will nominate might not necessarily be a person with capacity. The issue of incompetence, a Minister should be allowed, when somebody who does not have the capacity to contribute meaningfully into a certain body is then nominated to decline such nominations for appointments. I thank you.

HON. MUTOKONYI: Thank you Chair. It is important to understand the objective of coming up with this amendment. The idea is to ensure, given the Financial Action Task Force’s recommendations on ensuring that the PVOs operate within the frameworks of the laws that guard against any acts of terrorism or of any other. In that perspective, the Minister should have the mandate to ensure, because he represents the responsible authority and we are saying we need to look at it from the objective, what do we want to achieve? What we want to achieve is to have PVOs that operate within the frameworks of the law, the PVOs that will not clandestinely seek for political or of any other mileage.

So, I also buttress that the Minister should have the discretion to appoint. 

Hon. Kademaunga also raised the issue that there has to be a 50/50 on gender.  Yes, whilst I agree to that, but if it is put at law, at times it can then become a challenge given that the people that should be in this board should be taken aboard on meritocracy.  So, at times we can start to have a situation whereby we no longer have the right person to suit serving on the board and at the end of the day, it then becomes a challenge.  Whilst I believe it is good to have the 50/50 …   

HON. DR. KHUPE:  On a point of order Hon. Speaker.  We feel offended as women for the Hon. Member to say there might not be women who are qualified.  We have got so many qualified women to occupy these positions, therefore the Bill must include 50/50 representation of women and men.  The women are there and it does not matter whether they are taken from organisations, ministries or wherever.  Women who are competent and qualified to occupy those positions will be found.

HON. MUTOKONYI:  Mr. Chairman, I am sure if I have been heard well, I spoke of gender not women.  So, it should be noted that when we talk of gender, we are not referring to women only or men only.  I thank you.

HON. ENG. MHANGWA:  Thank you Hon. Chair for the opportunity to speak.  I agree 100% with the previous speaker that there is need for meritocracy.  However, meritocracy cannot only be seen by one person who is the Minister.  If indeed there is merit, then the merit is for all to see.  We have a pool of more than 1000 NGOs that are nominated and this pool can be given to the Minister.  Can the Minister surely not get 10 people out of that pool? If you want something that is representative, then it is ideal that the Minister gets the pool from the people that are nominated.  So, I stand in support and buttress the fact that it is important that the nominated list becomes the only source of getting members to be appointed by the Minister.

HON. G. K. HLATYWAYO:  Thank you very much Hon. Chair.  I wish to associate with the previous speakers who are advocating to have members of the board coming from nominations that are made by PVOs.  At the centre of what we are discussing is the question of independence of PVOs.  We have a constitutional provision that speaks to freedom of association and it is very important for the Executive to be seen to be respecting independence of PVOs.  The last thing that we want to see are what are called GCNGOs or Government Controlled Non-Governmental Organisations.  That is the fear that many PVOs have and that is the reason why we are advocating for this Bill to enable Government to be able to control PVOs.  So, by making sure that board members are appointed from those that are nominated by the private PVOs themselves, we would actually deal with this question of independence of PVOs.  I associate with that thinking and we should make sure that board members are coming from PVOs.  I also associate with the request to ensure we have 50/50 representation of women.  I think it is very important to have gender equality on this board as something provided for in our Constitution and I think we should be seen to be respecting it.  I so submit.

*HON. MAPIKI:  Thank you. Hon. Chair.  I want to look at a period when Mutharika was President of Malawi.  During his reign, there was a similar situation where NGOs were bringing their people.  Ninety/ eight per cent of the Malawi budget had input from such people but when there was a threat to his reign, the Minister did not have control of what was happening.  So, where a Minister does not have an input, there are people with regime change agendas and it will be difficult to correct that.  I thank you.

HON. GUMBO:  Hon. Chair, the concept of nomination is aimed at ensuring that the process is inclusive.  It is aimed at ensuring that there is participation and not a mere window dressing exercise.  It must not be just a facade of the spirit of the law which we are trying to enact.  To say that after nominations have been done, discretion is given to the Minister to even go outside the parameters of the nominees militates against the spirit of nomination.  Also, the clause proposed by the Minister indicates that the Minister will consider which organisations are representative of PVOs, meaning that the organisations which will nominate are organisations that the Minister will have to agree with.  I think our law must be very particularised in as far as which organisations and we can achieve that by qualifying if the PVO is registered or complies with that and that then you have the capacity and power to nominate.  Not to simply say that after nominations, the Minister again must decide which organisation is qualified to nominate or not to nominate.  I think that gives so much discretion to the Minister and it opens up this process to arbitrariness by the Minister.  Next time you will only have organisations which are sympathetic to ZANU-PF.

          THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (HON. MACHINGURA): Hon. Member order. When I say order, you sit down. Thank you. Where is it written ZANU PF in the Bill?

          HON. GUMBO: No, Hon. Chair you were probably not listening, you were talking to Mr. Daniel there. I said the clause here where it says that the Minister will consider which organisations must nominate opens up the process to possible arbitrariness. That level of unfettered discretion given to the Minister will be ambiguous and it will get us to a situation where the Minister might consider only those organisations sympathetic to ZANU PF as the ones that nominate, that is why I say ZANU PF. That is a fact.

THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: Order, Hon. Member.

HON. TOGAREPI: The example the Hon. Member is giving is very offensive. It is not our fault to be in power, we won elections. If the Minister is coming from ZANU PF and he has the authority to make that decision, he makes that decision as a Minister and not as a political party. So Hon. Member, we are not here in Parliament talking about political parties. You must respect that.

Hon. Mushoriwa having approached the Hon. Member debating. 

THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Hon. Chief Whip. Hon. Mushoriwa, when I say order everybody must sit down. It is in your Standing Orders. Hon. Member, I do not think it is wise for you to talk about political parties. Can you withdraw that part?

HON. GUMBO: I concede Hon. Chair. I withdraw ZANU PF but then I will say it might be sympathetic to any other organisation.   We are proposing …

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE, LEGAL AND PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (HON. Z. ZIYAMBI): Hon. Chair before we proceed. In fact, wait because whatever you are saying, you want me to consider. So if I need clarity, I am different from all of you, who are just debating. For me I am here to consider. That is the procedure. There are things that I just want clarity. When we are doing Committee Stage, it is not about general debate. We speak to a specific clause just like what Hon Bajila.

Secondly, let us not digress. This is about Private Voluntary Organisations. If you have your Private Voluntary Organisation that is linked to a particular party, keep it in your heart because these are charitable organisations that are not supposed to be political. So let us stick to law making for private charitable organisations that use public funds.

HON. GUMBO: Well, I will follow the wisdom of the Minister. Clause 3 (a) is where we are referring to which says “eight representatives nominated by such private organisations, associations, institutions or other organisations of private voluntary organisations or organisations which the Minister considers are representative of private voluntary organisations”. What we are calling for there is specificity. Let us particularise the kind of organisations which are qualified to make nominations and not to say that the Minister has to consider that particular organisation suitable to nominate. That will mean certain organisations might be excluded not as a question of law but as a question of discretion by the Minister.

What we are trying to limit there is the discretion granted by the Act to the Minister. We are trying to limit the possibilities and the threat of arbitrary actions by the Minister in as far as considering which organisation can nominate and which cannot nominate. So let us particularise. There is no harm in us amending there and perhaps qualifying to say the organisation that nominates has to meet these standards or provisions.

HON. MATEWU: I want to agree with most of the Hon. Members and I also want to agree with Hon. Mugwadi who said that there must be some oversight. I agree with that. I want the Minister to look at Clause 4 (1) which says “provided the Minister may appoint a person to be a member of the board who has not been so nominated”. That sentence alone makes a mockery of the whole clause. The substance of this clause is to ensure that there are nominations that are coming from these Private Voluntary Organisations.

If that sentence remains there that says that the Minister may appoint a person outside of those nominated and may decline to appoint a person. That is fine, they may decline on whatever basis but I want the Minister to consider the first sentence otherwise the first sentence makes a mockery of this clause. May the Minister please delete that? If the Minister is not happy with all the people that have been nominated the private voluntary nominations must also come back with a new list of names rather than for the Minister himself to then go outside and nominate himself otherwise that whole Clause 3 will fall apart.

*HON. NYABANI: It is written that the Minister may and not must.

HON. MATAMBO: On a point of order. The Hon. Member is not properly dressed and he is not fit to be in this House.

THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: Hon. Nyabani, please proceed.

*HON. NYABANI: As Parliament, this is what we are doing, enacting the NGOs and PVOs laws because they have a right. Hon. Members on our left want to bring their people in NGOs and that is why they are refusing the Minister’s input. The Hon. Minister should have an input and an oversight so that people who deserve to be appointed are appointed instead of those who are anti Government. PVOs complement Government activities but if PVOs are anti-Government, then they cannot complement Government work. I thank you.

HON. NGULUVHE: I just wanted to get clarification from my colleagues on the right. Why is that the President is allowed to appoint Cabinet ministers who have not been voted in? – [HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.] - Can you stop the Minister from appointing those who have not been nominated? That is my question – [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] -

HON. S. SAKUPWANYA: Thank you Hon. Chair. I just want to add my voice to this debate in the sense that Hon. Chair, when a Minister is sworn in, he takes an oath of office just like every other Member of this Parliament such that when we are acting in our duty, we are representing Zimbabwe. No PVO takes the same oath of office and can claim that they represent Zimbabwe – [HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.]  - In that sense Hon. Chair, it augurs well that when it comes to names that consider a board that will have oversight, that is mandated by an Act of Parliament to represent the Government interest as oversight. It then follows that the decision making must be made by a representative of the Government of Zimbabwe. The PVO in that sense does not represent the interest of Zimbabwe as much as they complement the efforts made by Government. They are not a representative by law and as a result, it augurs well that the Minister should have some form of discretion to agree with them or not.

The fact of the matter that they are even being allowed to nominate is something whereby we have more or less relaxed the terms. In essence, the Minister should be able to appoint without necessarily recommending or hearing recommendations from the PVOs because these are Private Voluntary Organisations. Their interests are not always necessarily the same as the interest of the people of Zimbabwe – [HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.] - So, it must follow that, and that provision must remain. I thank you.

HON. Z. ZIYAMBI: Thank you Hon. Chair. I think Hon. Mushoriwa indicated that on page 884, the section should be changed. We have ordinarily resided in the middle of Northern Region and Southern Region. I agree. I think the definition, reference to ordinarily reside should be after Southern Region, so that is conceded. Then on the question of 10, I did not get a good reason for 10. I hear somebody shouting Province. Hon. Chair, if we look at the population of Matebeleland South and the population of Harare or Manicaland or Mashonaland West - Mashonaland West may actually have a population which is times three or times five that of – [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] -

The Constitution also speaks of regions not provinces. In order to balance as opposed to spreading where you do not have people, the way we did it actually divides the country into two.  If you look at the population, there will be more or less balance. It is not just about saying Province, but this is more representative.

THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: Order Hon. Minister. I am being advised by the Sergeant-at-Arms that Hon. Mahlangu is eating in the House. Please refrain from that. Thank you.

HON. Z. ZIYAMBI: So, this one, I think it is alright as it is. The number 8 is good, that one we are not changing. Then there was reference to people with disabilities, we are talking about PVOs. When we get to the Disability Bill, the board will speak about that. If these are nominations that are being called from PVOs to have members in the board, we cannot be prescriptive as if we are the ones who are forming those PVOs. The other one was pertaining to….

THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: Hon. Minister, have you exhausted that one, 3(a)?

HON. Z. ZIYAMBI: Yes, I said….

THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON:  It is 3 (a), is it not? 

HON. Z. ZIYAMBI:  Yes, it is staying as it is.

THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON:  What have you said about the youth, gender and disability, yes?

HON. Z. ZIYAMBI: These are Private Voluntary Organisations. We are not looking at the population of a nation and its demography. We are looking at organisations that are doing charitable work. We cannot force people, the youths, women or men to form a men’s organisation, to say there must be a representative of this. We take from the pool of PVOs that are registered. It is not for us to prescribe. It is for them to be there and then the Minister will call for those.

If those organisations and nominations are not called in those organisations, our laws allow you to go to court to say what the Minister did was discriminatory. It is allowed, but we are saying we cannot put that in this Act. It is not speaking about issues of gender, it is speaking about Private Voluntary Organisations.

On page 885 - I agree that 4 (a) Sub-Clause 1; I will delete where it says, “Provided that the Minister may appoint a person to be a member of the board who has not been so nominated”.  I am proposing that we delete that, so that it reads, “Provided that the Minister may decline to appoint any person so nominated in which event, the Minister shall invite new nominations to be made”. It makes sense, I took note of what he said.

On Sub-Clause 6, where it says “The Minister shall designate one of the members nominated by PVOs to be the Chairperson of the board”. I think the other about gender is there in the Constitution. We have been complying with that where you appoint a male then the Vice Chair becomes the other where it is a female - it is there in the Constitution. I think it is covered, but I agree that we do that so that the Minister does not appoint his officials to chair. I submit those changes.

THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Hon. Minister. There was a point raised on 4 (b), have you covered that one 4(b).

HON. ZIYAMBI:  What was it about?

THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON:  Yes, there was a request to make all the Ministry appointees’ ex-officio. 

HON. Z. ZIYAMBI: No, they cannot be appointed Board Chair or Vice but they are full members, except the Registrar.

          THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON:  Alright.

          HON. Z. ZIYAMBI:  Chair, if you look at all the professional boards which are regulatory boards, Ministers have appointees in there and they vote.  The only person, and this is standard, who does not vote is the Registrar.  I am sure those that belong to professional bodies will know that what I am saying is correct.  So, I do not think this is an issue because these come to sit with others but the Registrar is the functionary in that particular organisation.

Amendment to Clause 3, now Clause 4 put and agreed to.

Clause 3, now Clause 4, as amended, put and agreed to.

On New Clause Clause 4:

HON. MUSHORIWA:  Mr. Chairman, I move the amendments standing in my name that;

The Bill is amended between lines 41 on page 4 and line 12 on page 8 of the Bill, to delete the new Part IIA and to substitute the following new clause:

 “3A - New section inserted in Cap. 17:05

Part II of the principal Act is amended by the insertion after section 5 of the following new section—

“5A Private Voluntary Organisation Forums

• The Registrar shall annually, on a date and at a venue to be notified in the Gazette at least three months beforehand, convene a forum of representatives of private voluntary organisations to discuss issues of concern to private voluntary organisations generally:
• Provided that the venue of such forums shall rotate annually through all the provincial centres of Zimbabwe in such order as the Registrar may determine.

(2) The—

(a) selection of representatives of private voluntary organisations to attend annual forums convened in terms of subsection (1); and

(b) determination of issues to be discussed at such annual forums; and

(c) procedure to be adopted at such annual forums; shall be as prescribed or as fixed by the Registrar: Provided that the representatives shall be selected from as wide a range of private voluntary organisations as practicable, and all the representatives attending a forum shall be given a reasonable opportunity to discuss the matters on the agenda.

(3) The conclusions or resolutions of every annual forum convened in terms of subsection (1) shall be recorded and presented to the Minister without -

Mr. Chairman, the old Clause 3 is a long clause as it was put but my suggestion in respect to, more-so given what the clause that we have discussed, which the Hon. Minister brought and we have adopted, it will then reason that we delete the bulk of this Clause 3. I am proposing that from page 4, lines 41 to line 12 on page 8 of the normal Bill – you see there is a problem on the way the amendments have been put on the Order Paper. 

It was a question to make sure that we delete from line 41, all the way to page 8 on line 12.  Once we have done that, we then bring in the new changes that I have put in, where it will then say Private Voluntary Organisation…

THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON:   Order, Hon. Mushoriwa.  We cannot locate the place that you are talking about.  Are you on page 3? There is line 40 there?

HON. MUSHORIWA:  Yes, go to page 4.  That was the Clause 3.

THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON:  There is no line 41. It is from lines 1 to 5 on page 4.

HON. MUSHORIWA:  Let me just come over.

Hon. Mushoriwa approached the Chair.

On Clause 4 now Clause 5:

     THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE, LEGAL AND PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (HON. ZIYAMBI): Hon Chair, I am proposing those amendments because we had removed the board in the current Bill.  We are now reintroducing it having constituted the board.  So those are the functions which are more or less like what is in the Act. 

     HON. MATEWU:  On the functions of the Board, I have noticed that when the amendments were then made, and you look at the functions of the Board and those of the Registrar, they are identical.  I suggest that on 4 (b), instead of saying “the functions of the Board shall be to hear representations,’ can we substitute it with ‘to consider recommendations of the Registrar in respect to representations by any association’ because now that we have the Registrar and the board - instead of the board hearing representations, they will hear them from the Registrar where the organisations will go first. If it is maintained like that it will be the same as 5 (b).  It is critically identical and it gives the Registrar and the board the same job.  We are saying the Registrar must then answer to the board.  The board should then consider what is coming from the Registrar.  Then remove 4 (d) because that will now be the job of the Registrar as clearly stated on 5 (d), which is the role of the Registrar.  Let us not conflict the roles of the board and the Registrar.  Their roles must be different.  We are saying the Registrar reports to the Board rather than the other way round.  I thank you.

     HON. MUSHORIWA:  Hon. Chair, I also want to bring to the attention of the Minister the following:  The functions of the Board cannot be the same as those of the Registrar.  It is the Board that should advise the Minister and not the Registrar. You cannot have identical duties for both the Registrar and the board.   I suggest the following:  on page 886 (e) to submit to the board an Annual Report concerning administration and operation of this Act.  On page 885 (e), it is correct as the board will submit to the Minister and the Registrar will submit to the board.  Secondly, I wanted on (c) for the Registrar to advise the board and then the board advises the Minister.  If you go to the same page 886 there is a paragraph under 4 which says ‘the Registrar shall open to inspection during office hours by any member of the public on payment of the prescribed fee if any - provided that the Registrar shall endeavour to create and maintain an up-to-date website’.  I want the word endeavour to be deleted.

          THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: If we delete the word endeavour, how does it read?

          HON. MUSHORIWA: What I wanted to do and bring to the Minister, because Clause 4 and 5 speak to each other and I wanted that when the Hon. Minister does the amendments on Clause 4, he should know that some of these things are already taken on the Registrar so that they could be smarter in that manner.

THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: Hon. Mushoriwa, can you be clear on Clause 4 and 5. What exactly are you saying?

HON. MUSHORIWA: What is happening is that on the functions of the board under Clause 4 and the functions of the Registrar under Clause 5, there is actually a confliction on the two. Any changes on Clause 4 have got an effect on changes on Clause 5 because procedurally, we are supposed to deal with Clause 4 first before we go to Clause 5. Part of the reason why I was making reference to Clause 5 was to make sure that the changes that we do in Clause 4 will then have a bearing on Clause 5.

HON. MUGWADI: With your indulgence, and the Leader of Government Business in the House. I must apologise, maybe I am a slow thinker, but it is my prayer that coming on a different note to the subsequent section which the Minister amended to say, “where nominations have been rejected to the same board, we are talking about. The Minister will call for further nominations”. It is my highly considered view that in the event that nominations have been made in the first instance and the Minister has rejected them and subsequent….

          THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: Hon. Member, it appears that we have passed through that Clause. We have finished that Clause. We are now on Clause 5 which was formally Clause 4, functions of the board. We are now on page 885.

          HON. MUGWADI: I agree, that is why I said it is my prayer with your indulgence Minister. It appears that Hon. Members from the other side of the House want to bully us. I think it is not proper.

          THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: We are now discussing functions of the board. Please I want to remind you Hon. Members you are not chairing this session, I am. Hon. Minister please respond to Clause 5 formally 4, functions of the board.

          THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE, LEGAL AND PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (HON. Z. ZIYAMBI): On the functions of the board, I agree with Hon. Matewu that we need to change. Actually Hon. Chair, I will just expunge 4(b). The Registrar is a member of the board and the Registrar will take issues to the board. So, if there are any issues that they need, I think I will leave it where it says, “advise the Minister and registered PVOs in respect of any matter arising”. Can you come again on the amendments that you proposed or you have forgotten? There are duplications and we need to clean it up. He was right, but we need to clean it up. Wait a little bit. I want to thank Hon. Matewu, he was right even though they want to reconsider. I think what she indicated; I was to substitute with the following:

          On Clause 4, function of the Board, (b) to read as follows, to consider recommendations by the Registrar in respective to representations made by Private Voluntary Organisations and remove that. We expunge (d) and it becomes okay.

          Amendment to Clause 5 formerly Clause 4, put and agreed to.

          Clause 5 formerly Clause 4 as amended, put and agreed to.

          On Clause 6 formerly Clause 5:

          THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE, LEGAL AND PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (HON. Z. ZIYAMBI): I move the amendment standing in my name that:

• Office of the Registrar of Private Voluntary Organisations
  • There shall be an Office of the Registrar of Private Voluntary Organisations in the Ministry responsible for social welfare, in which shall be lodged the register of private voluntary organisations.
  • The Office shall be headed by a Registrar of Private Voluntary Organisations who shall exercise general supervision and direction of the registry and shall be assisted by one or more Assistant Registrars, inspectors and such other officers as may be necessary for the proper administration of this Act, whose offices shall be public offices and form part of the Public Service:

Provided that until an appointment of a Registrar is made, the person for the time being holding the office of Director of Social Welfare shall be the Registrar.

• Subject to this Act, the Registrar shall—
  • consider and determine every application for the provisional registration and every proposed cancellation or amendment of a certificate of registration; and
  • hear representations by any association, organisation or institution claiming entitlement to be registered as a private voluntary organisation; and
  • advise the Minister and registered Private Voluntary Organisations in respect of any matter arising out of the administration or operation of this Act or any other matter referred to it by the Minister or the Registrar; and
  • to promote and encourage the co-ordination of the activities of registered Private Voluntary Organisations having similar or related objects; and
  • to submit to the Minister an annual report concerning the administration and operation of this Act; and
  • maintain at his or her office, a Register of Private Voluntary Organisations in which he or she shall enter all such particulars in relation to the registration of Private Voluntary Organisations and their constitutions as he or she is required to enter by or in terms of this Act or any other enactment or decision of the Court;
• Provided that the Registrar shall endeavour to create and maintain up to date a website which, among other things, will enable members of the public to have access to the Register at all hours.
• The Registrar shall have power to delegate any of his or her powers to any officer other than the power of delegation.
• The Registrar may in writing authorise an assistant registrar, inspector or other officer referred to in subsection (2) to exercise any of the functions of a Registrar under this Act.
• Subsection (7) shall not be construed as limiting the power of the Registrar to delegate his or her functions under any other law.
• The Registrar shall provide every inspector with a document identifying him or her as an inspector, and the inspector shall produce it on request by any interested person.”

          I think we discussed this one. I propose that we expunge the new Clause 6 where it reads, New Clause 6 subsection 3 (c.) we expunge it because it is similar to the clause that is on the functions of the board and then we renumber accordingly. The current (e.), we change where it says submit to the “Minister” and we say “board”.

          I heard what he said about endeavour to create, this is an operational one which requires funding. So, if you shall say the Registrar will be taken to court, but this is in line with even if you look at the rights that are in the Constitution, it is an aspirational one. It requires funding, where funding is there. So, we cannot say ‘shall’. If the Registrar fails to do that, it will be problematic.  I think let us leave it like that.  Those are the amendments that I propose there.  I so submit.

HON. MUSHORIWA:  Hon. Minister, I hear you.  In this modern era, one would be persuaded to say that the question of having a website should actually a basic thing that any Ministry should have. Remember, our PVOs operate across, some in town there.  Then, Chairman, I had proposed one amendment which I want. I think it should be the new F, where it should read: ‘in the excise of his or her functions under this Act, the Registrar shall consult the Board and act in accordance with such general, I was going to remove the word ‘specific’, directions as the board may give him or her’.  So, I needed that amendment that I had proposed to be factored in here as the new F so that it should leave no doubt, that the Registrar in his or her operations shall consult the Board.  I was going to then take that proviso and put it as a new F. Since the Minister had expunged C earlier on, this one becomes the new F.  I thank you.

HON. Z. ZIYAMBI:  Hon. Chair, that is a dangerous provision.  You get boards running the institution.  If you have a board and you put in your law a provision like that, you have simply transferred the CEO’s functions to the board. You have made them redundant.  Anything that he has to do, they must consult the board.

          The normal thing is, you spell out the functions of the board, the functions of the CEO. The Registrar will have a contract with a specific job description that can be drafted according to regulations. If you say on a day-to-day, you defer to the board, then it becomes dysfunctional.  So, Chair, this is not accepted.

HON. TOGAREPI:  After that I am persuaded to also feel that, I do not know whether you would say you have already gone past that, C.  – [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] –Chair, please protect me from those vultures.

THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON:  There is only one Chair. Anything that you want to do, please do it through the Chair.  Can you please proceed Hon. Chief Whip?

HON. TOGAREPI:  My concern on C, from what the Minister has just said, that we cannot defer the activities of the Registrar to the board as if the board will be there everyday.  That, then follows that on C, it is generic, let me say; that when you have a Registrar or a Commissioner or an executive person running a regulatory board, in many circumstances that person, on daily basis, can work directly with the Minister.  In the process, this Registrar can advise the Minister.  For us to then say it is all always a straight jacket to say when the Registrar has something, he will advise the board, then the board advises the Minister on daily basis, operationally, the Minister can talk to the Registrar and get advice, technically from this person.

HON. MUSHORIWA:  Hon. Chair, I just wanted to bring to the attention of the Minister.  My amendment does not say day-to-day work. Remember, under your New 5, you listed the functions of the Registrar. This is my proposal that in the excise of his or her functions, the functions that we have put there, the Registrar shall consult the Board. Chair, there is no way that you could divorce the operations of the Registrar and the board, unless we are then going to say that we no longer want to have the board.  There is no way you can have a board and then you have the Registrar not consulting the board. In any event, the Registrar is also an Ex-officio member of the Board.

         It should not be an issue Hon. Minister.  My view is that, we should make sure that this Clause is inserted as F, that; ‘in the excise of his or her functions, the Registrar shall consult the Board’.  I think it is a standard proviso.  You cannot have the Registrar just doing his or her own things and the board reads it in the newspaper that things have happened.  It is not like delegating or giving duties to officer A or B, not those routine day-to-day things.  We are talking of the major functions of the Registrar.  There should be consultations with the board. That is the import of this Clause.

HON. Z. ZIYAMBI:  Hon. Chair, I will start with Hon. Togarepi.  On hindsight Hon. Chair, I want to keep this Clause. I think they were typos in there.  It should read; ‘advise the Minister and Registered Private Voluntary Organisations in respect of any matter arising out of the administration or operation of this Act or any other matter’.  I think it is a good provision. 

The board cannot, on a day-to-day basis, interact with PVOs.  In the operation of PVOs, the Registrar is the link between the PVOs and the Minister. Even if they have any other problems in terms of interpretation of the Act, or any other issue that they may have, the person that is the focal point in advising is the Registrar.  Having listened attentively, I think this Clause is needed. It should now be rephrased the way I put it, so that it reads, ‘advise the Minister and registered private voluntary organisations in respect of any matter arising out of the administration or operation of this Act’.  The person who will be responsible for executing on a day-to-day is the Registrar and then you say or any other matter.  I think this one I propose that we then put it.

Hon. Mushoriwa, we have another Act that governs what public entities do, the Public Entities and Corporate Governance Act. It spells out the relationships that should be there. Therefore, in the day-to-day administration, we also have to read it in line with that particular Act. What you are saying will contravene the provisions of the Public Entities and Corporate Governance Act. I believe that the board will issue policy directives. If you do it the way you want it, then you are creating problems. In fact, it will be dangerous. The Registrar will not be able to function at all. The board will be sitting in there, to do his work. I so submit Mr. Chairman.

HON. MATEWU: Thank you. The Minister had started well and I definitely agreed with the Minister that he had expunged Number (C). Mr. Chairman, we have a problem here. If you look at now Clause 5 (c), it says, to advise the Minister. These are the functions of the board. To advise the Minister and registered Private Voluntary Organisations is exactly similar to what the Minister is suggesting that we keep (c) here.

The Registrar is an ex-officio member of the board. If you now ask the Registrar to directly advise the Minister, which is one of the key responsibilities of the board, that undermines the whole board.

It undermines the board because the Registrar is now taking advise to the Minister, instead of the board sitting together, the eight from the PVOs and the five from the Ministries. The 13 of them will all be undermined by the Registrar. The Registrar’s role must be in terms of the Corporate Governance Act, to advise the board. Just like what CEOs do. They do not advise the Minister on policy issues. The board is there for policy issues to advise the Minister on policy issues. I want the Minister to reconsider this because this will definitely undermine the reasons of having a board. I thank you.

HON. MUGWADI: Thank you Chair. This is a question of advising the Minister. The Registrar is an ex-officio member of the PVO board. I am trying to establish where the query from Hon. Matewu is coming from, that the Registrar can equally advise the Minister. What should be a good scenario is that the Minister has a pool of those that can advise him about a particular situation in respect of any organisation or the running of PVOs, both the board and the Registrar. Where is the query? Why are we worried that the Minister can be advised by the Registrar, just as much as he can be advised by the board? The Registrar is a special, ex-officio member of a board by definition. He is a person of special interest. Why would you want to strip that special interest person in respect of what the Minister would benefit from him? I feel that if considerations be made, there is nothing wrong with that.

In fact, I would have wanted to say in hindsight; I said in hindsight because the Government Chief Whip has also spoken something in hindsight. May I be afforded the same privilege as well, in hindsight. My privilege of hindsight is that where nominations are made twice and have been rejected – [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] – the Minister must be allowed to make appointments where nominations have been rejected because that Clause cannot go like that…

THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: Hon. Mugwadi, I think the Minister has taken your point about Clause 6, where you are talking about advice to the Minister. The other one has been overtaken by events. I think I have already ruled.

HON. DHLIWAYO: Thank you Mr. Chairman. I would also want to contribute on the current debate. I think it is commendable that the Registrar advises the Minister and the board also advices the Minister.  Basically, the board will not be sitting every day and there may be some issues that arise and need a quick decision from the Minister. The Registrar must be able to reach out to the Minister and a decision be taken and implemented immediately. Moreover, I think that will also help in reducing bureaucracy because the moment we always want the board there, that will increase some bureaucracy tendencies that will delay the efficiency of Government operations. Thank you.

HON. ENG. MHANGWA: Mr. Chairman, there is a reason why – [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] – Mr. Chairman, please protect me.

THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: Hon. Minister, can you hear him?

HON. Z. ZIYAMBI: Yes.

THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Please go ahead.

HON. ENG. MHANGWA: Mr. Chairman, there is a reason why the Minister came back and proposed that there should be a board. Initially, it was just the Registrar directly dealing with the Minister and there is a reason why there is a board. It is important that in whatever changes that we make, we preserve the role that is taken by the board. It is important that the board still remains with its role of superintending over the Registrar. It is my belief that it should stay at it is.

HON. G. HLATYWAYO: On a point of order! Hon. Chair.  I am extremely bored by the behaviour that is being exhibited by the Members on our left.  I think Chairperson, you need to deal with those Members of Parliament – [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.]-

          THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: Hon. Members, nobody should tell me how I Chair.  Seat down! – [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] -

HON. SITHOLE: On a point of order! We are sick and tired of repetitions.

          THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that is why I have said can I put the question?

          HON. CHIGUMBU: On a point of order! I think this is a very important session that we are having as a Parliament. Hon. Chair, you are casting a blind eye on your right side.  These Hon. Members are beating the tables and making noise – [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] -

          HON. MUROMBEDZI: Thank you very much Hon. Chair for allowing me to debate.  Hon. Chair, I have noted that the provision for allowing the director of social welfare to act as the registrar in the absence of the…

          THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: Hon. Member, can you point us on the Order Paper where you are referring to.

          HON. MUROMBEDZI: It is under the Office of the Registrar, Private Voluntary Organisation, where it is written ‘provided that appointment of a registrar is made, the person for the time being, holding the office of the director of social welfare shall be the registrar’.

          So, my debate on that is that the provision allowing the director of social welfare to act as the registrar in the absence of an appointed registrar creates conflict of interest Hon. Chair.  The director’s primary responsibility is to implement Government social welfare policies which may not always align with the objectives of some PVO’s.

          This dual role could lead to biased decision making and the prioritisation of Government agenda’s over the needs of the goals of PVO’s. I so submit.

          THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE, LEGAL AND PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (HON. Z. ZIYAMBI): Thank you Hon. Chair.  I want to thank the Hon. Member. I am smiling because let us not confuse issues here, this is a regulatory board.  It is an executive function to ensure that the oversight on operations of PVO’s is done.  So, it is not an independent commission and it is housed in the Ministry of Public Service, Labour and Social Welfare.

 The provision is simply saying before a registrar is appointed, then the director of social welfare in the Ministry is the appropriate person in the meantime to act, but you must be aware that this is a regulatory function, it is not an independent commission, and it is not supposed to act outside the executive authority of Government.  So, that submission is not very correct.

However, we are saying in the administration of issues to do with PVO’s, the board must have representations from those PVO’s so that views of PVO’s are well represented, but it is a regulatory authority to regulate those Public Voluntary Organisations that are using public funds to do their work.

HON. MATEWU: I still want to insist Hon. Minister that on Clause C, we need to reconsider it on the basis that we are seriously undermining the board like you said, you just said that the board, the director of social welfare acting as a registrar then you said that the board itself must be the ones because they are coming from different PVO’s to make those decisions, but allowing the registrar to advise the Minister without the board seriously undermines all the PVO’s which have seconded those eight to the board.  It also undermines those board members from the ministries who have been seconded, if the registrar who, as an appointee, is now directly advising the Minister who can make an executive decision or whatever.

So, we are saying if this Clause remains, it seriously undermines all the board members who have definitely…

HON. CHOKURURAMA: On a point of order! I think we are not going to finish.  I think these people have money in their socks and they should be searched...

HON. MATEWU: In terms of Standing Order Number 98, the Hon. Member is accusing people of bribe.  Can he withdraw that?

THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: Hon. Chokururama, you have correctly put it that we may not finish, but what you have stated further about bribes is unparliamentarily.  Please withdraw.

HON. CHOKURURAMA: I cannot withdraw because Hon. Matewu gave me 100…

THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: Withdraw your statement about putting money in the socks, but what you said that we may stick at one point is true.

HON. CHOKURURAMA: I withdraw.

 THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE, LEGAL AND PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (HON. Z. ZIYAMBI): Hon. Chair, the office of the Registrar of PVOs is within the Ministry of Labour. Even if I had not put that clause, this is an employee of the Government working within the Ministry of Public Service, Labour and Social Welfare. All the employees of Ministry of Public Service, Labour and Social Welfare advise the Minister on their functions. I do not even know why we are labouring. Even if I remove it, the fact that he is working for the Minister, she is bound to give advice to the Minister. That is the reason why I say I am not removing it because that is the core function of officers to advise the Minister on any issues that he might want.

THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: Order Hon. Members. What I have observed is that there has been a number of propositions and amendments that the Minister has accepted. Now, if there is an amendment that he does not wish to accept, then the whole House stalls because of that. I think it is a little bit unfair. The Minister has been reasonable.

Clause 5, now Clause 6 put and agreed to…

HON. MATEWU: Mr. Chairman, I call for the division of the House.

[Bells rung]

[House divided]

THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: We are voting on whether Clause 6, formerly Clause 5 amendments stands as part of the Bill - [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] –

            AYES: 68:  Hon. Chaimvura N., Hon. Chakukura U. A., Hon. Chari R., Hon. Chibagu G., Hon. Chikwinya N.E. G, Hon. Chinodakufa I., Hon. Chokururama J., Hon. Dhliwayo L., Hon. Dumbarimwe T., Hon. Gava A., Hon. Guyo P., Hon. Hungwe T., Hon. Jere F., Hon. Kambuzuma C., Hon. Kangausaru C., Hon. Karumazondo T. M., Hon. Kudhlande P., Hon. Mahlangu P., Hon. Mahachi A., Hon. Makaza F., Hon. Makwiranzou C., Hon. Mangondo N. T. J., Hon. Mapiki J., Hon. Maposa W., Hon. Mashonganyika D., Hon. Masvisvi D., Hon. Maunganiso T. D., Hon. Mavunga A. T., Hon. Mhuri W., Hon. Monga S., Hon. Moyo F., Hon. Moyo P., Hon. Mpasi J., Hon. Muchimba C., Hon. Mudzingwa L., Hon. Mugwadi T., Hon. Mukomberi T., Hon. Murwira T., Hon. Musanhi K. S., Hon. Mushipe T. T., Hon. Musiyiwa R., Hon. Musweweshiri B., Hon. Mutandi G., Hon. Mutokonyi V., Hon. Muwombi J., Hon. Muzunguwe N. T., Hon. Natiso D., Hon. Ndlovu B., Hon. Ncube E., Hon. Ndou T., Hon. Ndudzo P. D., Hon. Nguluvhe A., Hon. Nhari V., Hon. Nkomo M., Hon. Nyabani T., Hon. Nyelele L., Hon.Pindukai T., Hon. Sakupwanya S., Hon. Samambwa E., Hon. Shamu W. K., Hon. Sibanda S., Hon. Sithole S., Hon. Tavaziva G., Hon. Thompson B. T., Hon. Tagarepi P., Hon. Zevezai C., Hon. Zhou T., Hon. Ziyambi S.,   

          Tellers: Hon. Matewu and Hon. Mupasi

          NOES:53: Hon. Bajila C. D, Hon. Bonda J, Hon. Chidziva H, Hon. Chigumbu D. D, Hon. Chikombo W, Hon. Chikomo T, Hon. Dube P, Hon. Gumbo A, Hon. Gumede M. N, Hon. Gwangwaba S, Hon. Hadebe J, Hon. Hlatywayo G. K, Hon. Hwende C, Hon. Kademaunga M, Hon. Kapoikulu S, Hon. Karenyi L, Hon. Khupe T, Hon. Linyane M, Hon. Madzivanyika C, Hon. Mahlangu S, Hon. Majaya B, Hon. Makombe J, Hon. Makumire R, Hon. Makuvire J, Hon. Marashe S, Hon. Maseko S, Hon. Matambo J, Hon. Matewu C, Hon. Mavhudzi D, Hon.  Mazhindu B, Hon. Mhangwa L. E, Hon. Moyo D, Hon. Mureri M, Hon. Murombedzi M. F, Hon. Mushoriwa E, Hon. Mutseyami C. P, Hon. Muwodzeri T, Hon. Ncube F, Hon. Ndebele M, Hon. Ndebele S, Hon. Nyamuronda R, Hon. Nyathi T. C, Hon. Sagandira P, Hon. Shiriyedenga E, Hon. Sibanda Libion, Hon. Sibanda Lovejoy, Hon. Sibanda M. C, Hon. Sihlabo V, Hon. Sithole G. K, Hon. Tsvangirai R, Hon. Zvaipa I. 

          Tellers: Hon. Pinduka and Hon. Ndebele

          THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: Order, order!  The question over which the House divided was that Clause 6, formerly Clause 5, as amended by the Hon. Minister do stand as part of the Bill.

          The question is accordingly affirmed and the amendment by the Hon. Minister is hereby made - [HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.] –

          Amendment to new Clause 6 put and agreed to.

          New Clause 6, as amended, put and agreed to.

          On new Clause 7,

          HON. MUSHORIWA:  I move the amendment 5(a).  What I am going to do on this Clause is to have Clause 1 and delete the other part of the Clause because it has now been taken into consideration.  It will now read, the Registrar shall annually, on a date and at a venue to be notified in the gazette, at least three months before hand, convene a forum of representatives of Private Voluntary Organisations to discuss issues of concern to Private Voluntary Organisations – it then

ends there.  I thank you Hon. Chair.

          THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON:  Is the word generally applicable there?  Do you want it?

          HON. MUSHORIWA:  Yes.

          THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE, LEGAL AND PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (HON. Z. ZIYAMBI): I agree.

          New Clause 7 put and agreed to.

          On Clause 8 Substitution of Clause 4:

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE, LEGAL AND PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (HON. Z. ZIYAMBI): I have amendments that I have proposed in my name as they fully appear on page 887 in the Order Paper.  This is to cater for the duration of re-registration which the PVOs felt that 30 days was insufficient and we conceded. We have amended that to say within 90 days.  I think that is the major change and then the rest was just adjusted accordingly. I so submit accordingly.

          Hon. Minister Ziyambi and Hon. Mushoriwa were asked to approach the Chair.

          HON.  MUSHORIWA: Thank you Chair. Clause 4 has been taken over by events, so I withdraw it.

          Amendments to Clause 4, now Clause 5, put and agreed to.

          Clause 4, now Clause 5, as amended put and agreed to.

          On Clause 5 now Clause 6:

          HON. MUSHORIWA: Mr. Chairman, as you may be aware, the manner in which the Order Paper presents these amendments, they are creating a bit of confusion to the extent that I think we need to realign and relook. This is because with the various changes that have happened, it will be prudent that we report progress and seek leave to sit again next Tuesday, so that we finish. This is haphazard, to the extent that we may create some problems in the process.

          THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE, LEGAL AND PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (HON. Z. ZIYAMBI: Hon. Chair, it is my duty to do exactly what he is saying because it is my Bill, so let us proceed.

          HON. MUSHORIWA: This is where I was going to say but now that the Minister insists that we go, I just hope that we will not end up with a Bill which we may not probably make sense of at the end of the day. Clause 5, of the Bill seeks to amend Section 9 of the Act which sets out the procedure for registering PVOs. The clause will set a provision requiring PVOs to disclose their beneficiary owners or controllers which in addition, seeks to transfer the power of registration to the Registrar rather than the board, which in my view is bad.

          We need the board to continue to retain the power. I think we have already done that when we did the functions of the board. What I seek there is that instead of having the Registrar, the board be the ones; basically, what the amendment seeks to do is to restore reference to the board so that the board retains power to register PVOs.

          HON. Z. ZIYAMBI: Thank you Hon. Chair. I reject what he is proposing, the functionary who goes to the Board is the Registrar. The Registrar will do exactly what is there and he is the member of the board anywhere. The Registrar will do all the work and then report to the board, so it is okay as it is.

HON. MUSHORIWA: Hon. Chair, this is exactly why I just had questioned the Minister. Apparently, Hon. Minister you agree that if you go back to the earlier clause, I am talking about the new clause which I have put. What I am saying is that, if we had earlier under Clause 4, if we had agreed in terms of the powers of the board, then all of a sudden, we then have a proviso which seeks to take that power away from the board.

If you look at my proposal, it touches some of the amendments that you made. The problem is this, what has happened is that some of your amendments and what is there right now, we cannot keep track. Honestly speaking Hon. Minister, you and I know that the manner in which the Order Paper has been done in terms of these amendments, we will not come up with a right product and I think the…

HON. Z. ZIYAMBI: On a point of order.  Hon. Mushoriwa knows, we are on the old Clause 5, amended to Section 9, of Chapter 17.05, Section 9, Registration of the Principal Act is amended like this.  I am simply saying he must say I do not agree with this and that and I propose this, but he is going round and round. I do not even know what he wants the House to appreciate.

HON. MUSHORIWA: The issue is very simple and the Hon. Minister is aware. If you look at Clause 5 in the Bill, this has been affected by some of the amendments that the Hon. Minister has made. In the process of having been affected, it creates a challenge of realigning the provision because what it now means is that we need to reopen some of the amendments that the minister has made. This is the reason why I had requested the Hon. Minister to simply say, we need this to be realigned. Let us have the secretariat do the renumbering of the issues that we have…

 HON. Z. ZIYAMBI: It has never happened that we get what has been done before we complete the process. What he is asking for is not procedural. What is procedural is he must tell us on the clause that we are now at  rather than continuously making reference to what we have put to the House and agreed to.  So, I suggest Hon. Chair, that you put the original Clause 5 to the House for a vote.

HON. TOGAREPI:  Hon. Chair, I think we are faced with a very simple situation here.  We have Hon. Mushoriwa who has confessed before this House that he is confused.  So, if we are dealing with somebody who is confused, surely, we can proceed while he recovers from the confusion.

HON. MUSHORIWA:  Hon. Chair, I think the Hon. Chief Whip needs to withdraw that statement.  The question is simple and I just want to demonstrate to you that if we go by the suggestion from the Hon. Minister, that we go to Clause 5, the Hon. Minister may not be aware, maybe he has not read Clause 5.  Clause 5 has been affected by the amendments that he has made and that means that the current Clause 5, as it stands in the Bill and we read it and say it stands as part of the Bill, what it does is it will undo the amendments that the Minister has proposed and which have been adopted by this august House. 

HON. Z. ZIYAMBI:  If the Member is unable to pin-point what he is saying is a duplication or what he wants to be amended, can we proceed and put the Clause?

On Original Clause 5,

HON. MUSHORIWA: In lines 25 to 46 on page 10 of the Bill, we should delete paragraph b, c, and d. Clause 5 as it stands in the Bill is intended to amend Section 9 of the Act, which sets out the procedure for the registration of PVOs, but there is no basis for us to have the b, c, and d as I alluded to, lines 25 to 46.  So, to that end, I move that these be removed from the Bill.

THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON:  Hon. Mushoriwa, let us go to page 10 of the Bill.  I can see two bs there.  There is a, b, b, c, d.

HON. MUSHORIWA:  I mean between lines 25 and 46.  In fact if you go to page 10 in the middle of the page b, c, d line 25 to line 26 that it should be expunged.

HON. Z. ZIYAMBI:  Hon. Chair, I do not agree with what Hon. Mushoriwa is proposing.  Like I indicated before, the Registrar will do all those functions on behalf of the board so that there is no inconsistency.  Hon. Chair, I move that we adjourn debate and seek leave to sit again.

Motion put and agreed to.

House resumed.

Progress reported.

          Committee to resume: Tuesday, 16^th July, 2024.

On the motion of THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE, LEGAL AND PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (HON. Z. ZIYAMBI), the House adjourned at Nineteen Minutes past Six o’clock p.m. until Tuesday, 16^th July, 2024.