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NATIONAL ASSEMBLY HANSARD 16 May 2017 43-63
PARLIAMENT OF ZIMBABWE
Tuesday, 16th May, 2017
The National Assembly met at a Quarter-past Two O’clock p.m.
PRAYERS
(THE HON. SPEAKER in the Chair)
ANNOUNCEMENT BY THE HON. SPEAKER
ZIMBABWE WOMEN’S PARLIAMENTARY CAUCUS ANNUAL
GENERAL MEETING
THE HON. SPEAKER: I wish to inform all members of the
Zimbabwe Women’s Parliamentary Caucus that the Annual General Meeting which could not be held on 5th May, 2017 due to lack of quorum, has been rescheduled for Wednesday, 17th May, 2017 in the Senate Chamber at 09.00 a.m. Members are requested to bring their documents for reference purposes.
INVITATION TO A CATHOLIC CHURCH SERVICE
THE HON. SPEAKER: I also wish to inform the House that there will be a Catholic Church service tomorrow, Wednesday, 17th May, 2017 at 12.00 p.m in the Senate Chamber. All members who are
Catholics and non-Catholics are invited to attend.
COLLECTION OF THE UPGRADED HIGHWAY CODE
THE HON. SPEAKER: I further wish to inform the House that all Members of Parliament are requested to collect a copy of the upgraded Highway Code from the Journals office.
MOTION
RESTORATION OF THE MINERALS AND EXPLORATION
MARKETING CORPORATION BILL [H.B. 11, 2015] ON THE
ORDER PAPER
THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF MINES AND MINING DEVELOPMENT (HON. F. MOYO): Thank you Hon. Speaker, I move the motion standing in my name that the Minerals and Exploration Marketing Corporation Bill (H.B. 11, 2015) which was superseded by the end of the Third Session of the Eighth Parliament, be restored on the Order Paper at the stage it had reached in terms of Standing Order Number 161(1).
HON. HOLDER: Thank you Mr. Speaker. The reason I rose regarding the Minerals and Exploration Marketing Corporation Bill is that the last time this Bill was presented to this House I, as a member of the Mines and Energy Portfolio Committee, did mention that the Bill needed to be separated between marketing and exploration. I seek clarity and guidance from you, Mr. Speaker, whether that has been done or not.
THE HON. SPEAKER: Hon. Minister, I think it was the recommendation of the Committee that the Bill be split into two. In other words, exploration alone and marketing alone. Are you still of that position and if so, why do you bring them as a combined Bill?
THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF MINES AND MINING DEVELOPMENT (HON. F. MOYO): Thank you Hon. Speaker. It was my understanding that we engaged the Committee and discussed areas of difference, but if that is not the correct position, we withdraw our position and we will go and engage the Committee and come back.
THE HON. SPEAKER: I am not quite following Hon. Minister.
THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF MINES AND MINING
DEVELOPMENT (HON. F. MOYO): It is correct that the Committee requested the separation of the two Bills and we agreed to engage the Committee. When I looked at the motion now, it was my understanding that the engagement had been done, but I want to take note of the Hon.
Member’s comments and we will do as he requests – look at the matter and engage with the Committee to see whether we create a common ground on their concerns.
THE HON. SPEAKER: We need to be clear. Was it a request or a recommendation?
THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF MINES AND MINING
DEVELOPMENT (HON. F. MOYO): No, we engaged the
Committee to explain the Bill prior to bringing it across here. On the day when the Committee made the recommendations, I might have missed that debate Hon. Speaker. If it was done in the House, I was not aware that that is what happened.
The Chairman of the Committee on Mines and Mining
Development approaches the Chair.
THE HON. SPEAKER: Hon. Deputy Minister of Mines and
Mining Development, I think your latter explanation was correct that there was need for further engagement. In which case the re-instatement cannot subsist and therefore, perhaps you could move the standing down of Notice of Motion Number 1.
MOTION
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF MINES AND MINING
DEVELOPMENT (HON. F. MOYO): Thank you Mr. Speaker Sir. I
move that Notice of Motion Number one be stood over, until all the other motions have been disposed of.
Motion put and agreed to.
MOTION
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
HON. MATUKE: I move that Orders of the Day, Numbers 2 and
3 be stood over until Order of the Day, Number 4 is disposed of.
HON. MUKWANGWARIWA: I second.
Motion put and agreed to.
SECOND READING
NATIONAL PEACE AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION BILL
[H.B. 2, 2017]
Fourth Order read: Second Reading: National Peace and
Reconciliation Commission Bill [H.B. 2, 2017]
Question again proposed.
HON. KHUPE: Thank you Mr. Speaker Sir. I would also like to add my voice to this very important motion. I would like to begin by saying that, the National Peace and Reconciliation Commission’s specific mandate is to deal with the past by making sure that they facilitate truth telling.
For me, in order for this peace building process to be a success, it is important that truth telling be done in an open and transparent manner.
We want to make sure that what happened is not going to happen again. For instance, if you look at issues to do with Gukurahundi and other issues, it is like what Government did was to take an elastoplast and put it on a wound without applying betadine. So, what has been happening in the 35 years is that, that wound has been eating into the flesh. It is now deeper and the pain is severe. So, it is important that we remove that elastoplast, apply betadine so that the wounds heal and heal for good. – [HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.] –
That can only happen, Mr. Speaker Sir if the truth is told. Let the truth be told because the truth shall set you free. Once truth has been told, we want justice. Let justice take its course. Once justice takes its course, then there will be peace. Once there is peace, then you can reconcile the nation. Once there is reconciliation, then there will be development because a country cannot develop on a foundation of injustices. You have to deal with the injustices in order for development to take place. So, our plea to the Hon. Vice President is that let this process be done in such a manner that we are going to heal the wounds and heal them for good.
The Bill does not state how that truth telling is going to happen. It also does not state how justice is going to happen. So, it is important that this Bill at least clearly states how that truth telling is going to happen and how justice is going to happen.
On Section 9, where the Minister can issue a certificate prohibiting disclosure of evidence which is deemed to be of a security nature. If you look at all these issues that ever happened, all these issues are very sensitive. There is not even a single one which is not sensitive. So, if the Minister is allowed to be issuing certificates, it means he is going to be issuing certificates every step of the way. We are saying let this process be done in an open and transparent manner. Why are we not doing it like what the Rwandese did; they were sitting underneath trees while people were giving evidence. This is what we want; we are saying let us deal with this matter once and for all so that we move the country forward.
So, the issue of the certificate, I do not support it because the Commission would not be independent. It would be like the Minister would be interfering with the job of the Commission. Even if the new Bill provides that an affected member can appeal to the Commission, if they are not satisfied about that certificate, for me even if they were to appeal, I do not see anything new happening.
The other issue has to do with the issue of archiving the information. How is the information going to be archived because the Bill does not state clearly? On the issue of access to information, will the public have access to information wherever they want to use it? The other very important issue is to do with safety and protection of witnesses before, during and after they give evidence. If there is no security and protection, it means witnesses are going to be followed before they go and give that evidence, they will be threatened or after they give evidence they be followed and threatened. So, we need a guarantee that witnesses are going to be protected during this process.
The other issue is that in this whole process, violence has always had a gender dimension and we are saying the majority of the people who have been affected are women. So, the peace building process must try by whatever means possible to make sure that they become sensitive and capture the gender dimension. At the same time, there are people during this process who were excluded politically, economically and socially. The majority of these people are women. The peace building process must mainstream all these people because they were excluded. That is where issues of devolution come into play; power must be devolved to provinces so that every Zimbabwean has an equal share of the cake. The point that I am trying to raise here is that, let the peace building process mainstream gender so that issues to do with gender are taken into consideration; like I said that women are the ones who have been affected in the majority.
The last issue that I would like to raise has to do with the existence and the term of office of the Commission. According to the
Constitution, the Commission is to exist for 10 years. If we look at what is happening right now, four years have already been lost. How are those four years going to be compensated? Are we going to amend the Constitution because it is a constitutional matter so that the four years are incorporated, or are you going to do something to make sure that those four years lost are incorporated? I do not think that the Commission will be able to do this work in six years because this is a mammoth task Mr. Speaker Sir; a lot has to be done. I said earlier on that we want this process to be done in an open and transparent manner so that we have peace and tranquility in this country. Whilst there is peace and tranquility, this country is going to develop for the good of every Zimbabwean. I rest my case.
HON. MAJOME: Thank you Mr. Speaker Sir, for this opportunity to debate the National Peace and Reconciliation
Commission Bill which is one of those Bills that will give us an opportunity as Zimbabweans to be able to implement our Constitution. I must say through you Mr. Speaker Sir, I want to express my pleasure at the presence of the Hon. Vice President and Minister of National Healing, Peace and Reconciliation, Hon. Mphoko for gracing this House in order for this debate to be heard. That is exactly as it should be and I am pleased that he will hear the concerns we have.
Mr. Speaker Sir, I also want to really commence my debate and further to the Chairperson’s report and the views of those who have debated before me, I believe – [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible
interjections.] – I believe it will be
THE HON. SPEAKER: Order at the back there, we need to follow what the Hon. Member is saying.
HON. MAJOME: I thank you Mr. Speaker Sir. It will be remiss of me to begin expressing my views about the content of this particular Bill without also expressing my strongly and deeply held views about the other issues around the process of coming up with this Bill. It is no secret that this is the second attempt to bring a Bill before the Hon.
House on the National Peace and Reconciliation Commission. I talk about this because this particular Commission that the Bill refers to is one Commission whose lifetime is ephemeral. It is the only Commission in the Constitution that has a timeframe, as the Leader of the Opposition in the House Hon. Khupe has said before me that the
Constitution, as Hon. Members are aware, provides that there shall be a National Peace and Reconciliation Commission for a period of 10 years after the effective date. The effective date is defined as the date upon which His Excellency, the President assumed office after the general election of 2013.
Mr. Speaker Sir, Section 324 of the Constitution provides that, “all constitutional obligations must be performed diligently and without delay.” I believe it is our duty as Parliament to ensure that we do indeed fulfill this Constitution. We must frown upon delays such as the present that are not explained as to why is it that we have failed all this time and why have we caused this delay that the Constitution says is not permissible Further on, Mr. Speaker Sir, I want to submit very humbly and very respectfully that if we had performed our duty diligently in terms of section 324, we would not be doing a second take of this Bill. Why am I saying so Mr. Speaker Sir? I am saying that because it is common cause that a Bill was drafted that was condemned roundly from every dwala, every tree and everywhere in Zimbabwe. Ordinary members of the public who came for the first hearings first time were aghast at just how unconstitutional the Bill was.
The reason I am raising this is that Zimbabwe is a country that is really struggling in terms of resources. Our Government does not have much money; our revenue authority is struggling to raise revenue for the Government. I am glad that the Hon. Vice President and Minister of the National Healing and Reconciliation is here. May he please convey that message to other Hon. Ministers, that can we please do everything that we can to make sure that we use those very precious and those very scarce resources very well.
We did go round the country in vain because of the state of the
Bill. There was money, time spend and precious parliamentary time that went, I say that because at that point, I had the privilege of chairing the Portfolio Committee and the Hon. Members of that Committee worked extremely hard. They went and listened to views. It was not easy; the anger that we felt and that we heard from Zimbabweans, I will speak later on about the anger that I could almost touch particularly in Bulawayo and in Matabeleland North in particular when this Bill was heard. It takes a lot out of Members of Parliament to sit and receive such anger. We are the face of the public and the public, we are the ones that the public looks at and they take their anger on us.
Mr. Speaker Sir, I say this because we have the office of the
Attorney General. In terms of Section 114(4), subsection 4, the Attorney-General is the Chief Legal Advisor of Government and they are the ones that draft Bills such as the one that we have. They are required to promote, protect and uphold the rule of law and act in the public interest. It is my respectful view that if the Attorney-General’s Office was performing its functions fully as required by the Constitution, they would not have suffered; the Hon. Vice President and Minister of National Healing, Peace and Reconciliation carrying on with a Bill that was palpably unconstitutional. That then caused him to redo this Bill.
They should receive proper legal advice and the Attorney General’s office should actually be doing that. They should not be led by the
Nose, but should give legal counsel to Government so that our
Government can be seen to be doing its work properly.
Mr. Speaker Sir, I also want to say because of this delay, it has caused us to lose further time. The survivors and the victims of gross human rights violations that occurred in this country are angry, hurt and are waiting for solutions. I will therefore, want to suggest respectfully that in order to make up for these four years, this unexplained delay of four shameful years of having the Commission start – we have a duty to make this up to the Zimbabwean public who wrote this Constitution. It is my respectful view that when the Commission begins its work, the reckoning of the ten years must start from the minute that the Commission starts to work because the Constitution provides that it is ten years after the effective date. Today is after the effective date. It is still after the effective date and we can start reckoning the days from this day to the ten years so that we show that we care about the people that we represent.
I would like to acknowledge the improvements that have been made in the Bill – that it is encouraging indeed that the Vice President listened to the people of Zimbabwe when they cried and screamed about the first Bill. I would like to thank him for that and hope that he continues to further improve the Bill so that we can be judged well in terms of history.
I would like to say that the experience that we had in the public hearings is very eloquent and pitiful cry for peace and reconciliation to happen in Zimbabwe. The very way in which the public hearings were conducted shows that this Bill is of critical importance. Zimbabweans are bleeding and dying and Zimbabwe is in need of healing.
I will mention experiences that we had Mr. Speaker Sir. We had experiences particularly in public hearings that show that we need this
Commission to start its work yesterday and to meticulously follow what the Constitution provides in terms of its duties. It must not do superficial show of it. There was violence at the Public Hearings of this National Peace and Reconciliation Commission Bill. It was very ironic in that it was about peace and reconciliation but it was like war, in particular in Mashonaland Central. I will not forget that the atmosphere was extremely hostile. Survivors of brutal violence of May 2008 that I personally know because I happen to hail from this province; there was one particular one whom I first met when he was in hospital when he had been assaulted and his brother had been killed who was an MDC Councillor for a Ward in Mazowe Central. He was brave enough to come to the public hearing to give his views but he was prevented….
THE VICE PRESIDENTAND THE MINISTER OF
NATIONAL HEALING, PEACE AND RECONCILIATION (HON.
MPHOKO): On a point of order Hon. Speaker, some of us have damaged ears and people are making noise. I want to hear what the
Hon. Member is saying.
THE HON. SPEAKER: Hon. Member, may I caution that you did a very good job during the public hearing and consequently, the Bill then proposed was withdrawn. I request that you go to the meat and bones of the current Bill.
HON. MAJOME: Thank you Mr. Speaker Sir for your guidance but I am talking about the hearings on the second Bill. I am saying this because it is not possible to include everything in the report. During the hearings of this second Bill that has improved so much and I thank the Hon. Vice President for working on – in these particular hearings in Mashonaland Central, Bindura in particular, a survivor of very brutal violence whose name is Hilton Chironga was actually prevented from speaking at that hearing. He was brave enough to come to express his views but he was grabbed by the belt and was forced to sit down by the Deputy Mayor of Bindura together with other councillors –[HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.]- She identified herself as such in the public hearings.
Mr. Speaker Sir, this kind of conduct shows how much we need hearing. The National Peace and Reconciliation Commission Bill will teach us to be tolerant…
*HON. ZHOU: On a point of order, the Hon. Member is lying. I am one of the Committee Members and this did not happen.
THE HON. SPEAKER: Hon. Majome, the danger is that you had a recorded report and you cannot now go outside that report. This is where your fellow Committee Members might disagree with what you are trying to say now. Can you proceed?
HON. MAJOME: Thank you Mr. Speaker Sir but I would wish that you remind the Hon. Member to speak the truth because there are video recordings for these particular hearings. He must also …
THE HON. SPEAKER: The issue Hon. Member was not
captured in your report. That is the issue. It becomes extraneous.
HON. MAJOME: Thank you Mr. Speaker Sir. I will proceed to indicate that the state of intolerance that we have in this country shows that we need peace and reconciliation and we need to…
*HON. CHINOTIMBA: On a point of order, we would like to listen to what the Hon. Member is saying but the Hon. Members on the left side are making noise and accusing us of murder as if they never murdered anyone. If it is a matter of calling each other murderers, then the Bill will not pass. We cannot allow people who say a lot of false statements. They are giving false information as well as the person who is debating. A lot of heckling is happening on the left side; especially the woman with a wig and who calls herself a doctor. It is very dangerous for an Hon. Member to behave like this.
Mr. Speaker, war veterans died for the liberation of this country. The Sitholes died and were buried inhumanly. If they say such statements, no peace will happen – [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible
interjections.]-
THE HON. SPEAKER: Order, order. Is it not shameful that we are dealing with a Bill that is seeking peace and we are not behaving in a peaceful manner? Can the heckling please stop and allow the debate to proceed quietly?
HON. MAJOME: Thank you Mr. Speaker Sir. I hope you will allow me to use my device because that is where I put my notes for the debate on this particular Bill.
I hope that the Hon. Vice President will consider improving the Bill in the following respects in order to give effect to the desperately needed healing and reconciliation that our country desires. In particular, I am hoping that he would develop in the Bill clear provisions and mechanisms to ensure that four things are done in particular because I do not see them in the Bill:
- The telling of the truth – that we are not going to be able to move forward as a nation if we do not deal with our past. We must be able to learn to sit at tables, tell each other our experiences and hear them no matter how unsavoury and disturbing they are. That telling of the truth will help us reconcile. The telling of the truth that this was done to me; we will find each other that way. It is not a dangerous thing at all. That is the beginning in the Bill because the functions of the
Commission in terms of the Constitution require that the Commission does so and in the Bill, there does not seem to be much devoted to that. Secondly, I would hope that the Bill also takes time in dealing with the second issue of reparations, to show a process on how people can start to talk about it and what mechanisms might be done.
The third one is the issue of justice. The Bill must indicate how justice for those people who survived the atrocities is going to be done. Yes, we have a criminal justice system, but this issue keeps arising is because there are people who are walking around scot free but they raped people, killed people, took people’s goods but are floating around and the criminal law is not working. The Bill must indicate how it is going to relate to that, because there is some mention of amnesty out of the blue but it does not say if the amnesty is going to be available and for what kind of issues. How do you arrive at that stage, if there is going to be any amnesty? In my respectful view, amnesty must actually not be talked about but instead there must be mechanisms that indicate how those people who have not obtained criminal or civil justice are going to be able to go possibly to the police to claim damages - because, the police are there and the witnesses are still around.
The fourth thing is the guarantee of non-recurrence. I would hope that the Hon. Vice President devotes some time in having this Bill devote some effort to indicate how those terrible things that happened in this country that we did to each other and that were done to us that they do not ever happen again so that Zimbabwe can move forward. I notice that the Bill talks about giving investigative functions to the
Commission. I have a difficulty with this for two reasons in the way it is crafted. The Bill is saying that the Commission will investigate only when a person comes forward and complains that this happened to me. I hope that the Hon. Vice President allows the Commission and makes it clear that the Commission can mero motu, as lawyers say on its own initiative investigate. It should not be sitting and waiting in its offices but it should actually be proactive and go there.
Further on, I hope that we can consider removing the discretion that the Commission will have as to whether or not to investigate if a person comes because many people will not have justice. It is my hope also in Clause 6 (5), there is an indication that if the Commission wants the cooperation or the assistance of any department of Government and that Government department does not comply; the Commission can tell a relevant Committee of Parliament which can summon that department.
But, the Bill does not go on to state what then happens if the Commission still refuses. I would hope that there would be some measures to make sure that there can be compulsion of cooperation with the Commission.
Mr. Speaker Sir, I also go further to indicate that in this particular Bill, I would hope that it specifically mentions or defines - in a way what those issues are that the Commission would want to deal with – what kind of violations are we dealing with. Are they gross human rights violations, are they kidnappings, are they extra judicial killing or are they more or less like sudden poverty maybe inflicted by finding your money in the bank in loss of zeros and your pension having gone. Are they economic, physical or psychological to maybe indicate that? I also hope that the Bill itself in Clause 13 and I implore the Hon. Vice President through you Mr. Speaker Sir to allow the Commission to put up in place its own organogram or staff infrastructure.
My appeal to the Hon. Vice President is that it would not take anything away from the Hon. Vice President if the Commission were to indeed enjoy the independence that the Constitution gives it for it to do its organogram and they consult the Hon. Minister of Finance. If the Commission were to consult with the Hon. Vice President about how to setup the organogram; it would, with respect amount to interference with the independence of the Commission. Once you set up the architecture, if they can hire and fire at will, it means that it is already impinged.
In that respect I also urge the Hon. Vice President through you Mr. Speaker Sir to consider also not taking away the provision that requires the Commission to give its financial reports to him first. I believe that the provisions in the Constitution requiring reports are sufficient. Also that for the first meeting of the Commission, I also submit that you should consider meeting it…
THE HON. SPEAKER: Hon. Member, your time is up
unfortunately.
HON. MARIDADI: I move that the Hon. Member’s time be
extended by five minutes.
Motion put.
*HON. CHINOTIMBA: I object.
HON. MANDIPAKA: Thank you very much Hon. Speaker. I
will take a slightly different dimension or approach to this Bill that is being brought. I have a problem in accepting this Bill at this stage because, if you go through the report that was compiled by the Committee that also represented us, their first statement on their conclusion, they say, generally the Bill did not receive wide acceptance from the Members of the public. So, I am at pains because if members of the public did not accept the Bill during hearings, in the first place, why did you consult them. If they were not comfortable with the Bill, we must also take consideration of what the members of the public were saying. Last but not least on the conclusion, there is this statement by the Committee – it is the Committee’s view that the Bill in its present format is unacceptable. I want to partially support and agree with that Committee’s observation.
I say so because Mr. Speaker, there is a maxim which says ‘justice delayed is justice denied’. If this country had conflict in one way or the other; whether it was a tribal, religious, ethnic or political conflict and we are looking at the number of years that we have gone past and we have failed as a nation to go and give evidence about what has happened, why are we trying to open up those wounds now. I say so because I think that there is a third force which is trying to throw into our Constitution and system certain negativities that will cause conflict amongst and between ourselves.
Mr. Speaker, I am for peace and I respect the Constitution’s Sections 251, 252 and 253. In 2008 Mr. Speaker when I was in the police force, I went to Liberia for a year for peace keeping duties and what happened there during that period of time is that there was a Truth and Reconciliation Commission and people were going to give evidence about the conflicts that they had, but it was done soon after the conflict. You cannot have a truth and reconciliation commission 17 years past the conflict. What are we trying to achieve here? I am at pains Mr. Speaker to accept this Bill because if you look at countries that have no peace and have disturbances, it is because of these issues that we are trying to bring into existence. These are issues to do with tribes, ethnicity and so forth. I think that it is not good for our democracy and our country. Let us not forget our history. In 1987 on the 22nd of December, the late great son of the soil, Father Zimbabwe and the surviving His Excellency, the President of this country entered into a Unity Accord. It is my view that the leaders were trying to unite people together.
As we debate and talk about this Bill, we must not forget what Father Zimbabwe did for us. It was a way to try and unite the people, and forget about being Shona or Ndebele and being one nation. I advocate for unity amongst ourselves and forget about these things that we are talking about – [HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.] –. I have a problem Mr. Speaker in accepting this Bill at this stage. I thank you. *HON. MATANGIRA: Thank you Mr. Speaker for giving me
this opportunity to add my voice on such an important issue of national interest to the people of Zimbabwe from Zambezi to Limpopo. The last speaker and the two previous speakers are both correct. It then depends on one’s point of view and in terms of where we come from as a country and where are going. This Bill, wateya ngoma wati iye idi riwanike neuya riwanike zvinongofana nemumba kuti zvakaitika zvakaitika, zvakaoneka. It simply means let by-gones be by-gones. The sixth sense tells you that this was right or wrong. By so doing, you will have made a decision and it is a right that we were given by God.
The 2008 and Gukurahundi issues that were being made reference to I exclaim, where are we going as a nation? You now want to open old wounds that had healed. If a husband and wife fought last week, would they continuously be revisiting the reason for the conflict? Would there be peace in that particular home? Let us be nation builders. That is why we were saying that if the prayer that is given by the Speaker would be understood by each and every individual in their mother tongue, that would guide us as to what exactly we seek to achieve in this august
House.
*THE HON. SPEAKER: Order, order! What is maunderstendero in Shona? What is that?
*HON. MATANGIRA: Thank you Mr. Speaker. I am saying as is the case in the Bible when many received the Holy Spirit from God and the word was being preached. Each and everyman was able to hear the message in their own mother tongue. If all mother’s languages were to be used, we were going to understand all the idioms whether in Shona and Ndebele and one would quickly understand….
*THE HON. SPEAKER: Order, order Hon. Member. The rules say that you should stick to one language. That is why I had to ask you what is maunderstendero. Please stick to one language.
*HON. MATANGIRA: Maunderstendero simply means
understanding. We would then understand because it will be in our mother tongue.
The Bill before the House is done by those that is, as has been said by the last speaker, people that want to cause conflict or a third force. It is a third force that is causing Zimbabwean children to fight one another. The Bill has been delayed and if possible, we should stop having the Bill. There should be peace and reconciliation and we move ahead. I thank you.
HON. SARUWAKA: Thank you Mr. Speaker Sir. I think the first point I wish to make about this particular Bill is that Members of Parliament must be reminded that it is coming as a result of a constitutional provision, which is establishing the National Peace and Reconciliation Commission Bill. It is not for us today to then say we must strike it off and not establish this Commission. It is also instructive that those responsible for perpetrating violence and pain among the Zimbabweans will probably be happy if we are to stop this process and let by-gones be by-gones but in reality Mr. Speaker Sir, the nation does not heal that way. We must be able to face our demons if we want this country to progress. It is very easy for a perpetrator to expect the victim to forgive and forget but if you reverse the processes you will realise that a victim can only be healed when the truth and justice has been done.
On this particular Bill Mr. Speaker Sir, I wish to mention to you that any outcome is determined by the process and on the process of this Bill, there are a number of issues that I really feel were not considered and have really affected the content of this particular Bill. The first point I wish to raise Mr. Speaker is that the importance of this Bill is such that there was supposed to be very wide consultation of all Zimbabweans to input their views. There were only 10 meetings throughout the country with one meeting held per province and I am sure that is definitely not enough to gather enough information to guide the nation forward. The numbers of affected people are so many that we needed to open up the process. Mr. Speaker Sir, the Parliamentary Committee that was collecting oral evidence did not visit my constituency – [HON.
MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.]–
THE HON. SPEAKER: Order, order, please at the back there.
HON. SARUWAKA: Mr. Speaker Sir, in my constituency, Mutasa Central, the Committee that was moving around collecting views did not pass through it. They held their meeting in Mutare. I then had an opportunity to meet with the constituents over this particular Bill with the help of the National Transitional Justice Working Group Zimbabwe (NTLWG) and I wish to share the input that came from the people of Mutasa Central. Mr. Speaker Sir, there were submissions to the fact that the Bill must give the Commission power and capacity to set up a victims’ fund. This is important because you will realise that many victims need rehabilitation and compensation. Some of these require simple things like wheelchairs and walking sticks. For someone who was maimed through violence, up to date, they are unable to do their day-to-day chores; they can be helped if a fund, through this Bill, is established. The money can be used to support the victims and that way, they can be able to heal.
There is a submission from Mutasa Central where they were saying, they particularly feel that when setting up the Commission, may you please leave out those from the security sector, either as commissioners or as part of the secretariat. The simple reason advanced by those who made this submission was, unfortunately our security sector has been tainted. It has been pointed as the perpetrators in most of the instances so much that if they are going to be commissioners, it removes the confidence from the victims hence they (the commissioners/secretariat) will not be able to discharge their duties properly because of their tainted past. It is a specific request that as you set up your Commission, please make sure that you just pick from the civilians and not those that were participating in the atrocities.
The last point that I wish to make is the interpretation made by Sekuru Lancelot Sakupwanya who is 70 years old now. In his submission, in terms of the ten year life span of the commission, his understanding, which we agreed as to be probably the best and I am appealing that you take that to be the proper interpretation of the ten year period; is that the term has to be from the day the Commission starts work and not from 2013 when the Constitution was put into effect. We would really appreciate if you consider the tenure to reflect Sekuru
Sakupwanya’s interpretation. Those are my submissions Mr. Speaker Sir. I thank you.
*HON. CHINOTIMBA: Thank you Mr. Speaker. I want to add a few words on this Bill. I am unhappy about this Bill or I can say I do not like it. I do not want the Bill to be there. The Bill should begin with who started the war, who fired the first shot and who first killed who.
We are hurt because we were in camps then.
THE HON. SPEAKER: Order. We have to be very careful about what we say. The Executive, in its wisdom as guided by the
Constitution has brought this Bill here. There is no way we can say the
Constitution is wrong. To say the Executive is wrong in bringing this Bill, the Executive has complied with the constitutional provision. That is why the Bill is before us. There is no way you can say the Bill is not supposed to be here.
*HON. CHINOTIMBA: Thank you Mr. Speaker. That is my
view....
THE HON. SPEAKER: Order, order. I have guidance from the Chair. Otherwise, you are saying there is something wrong with the Executive and there is something wrong with the Constitution. Thank you.
*HON. CHINOTIMBA: Mr. Speaker, the previous speaker, Hon. Mandipaka spoke about the findings from the public hearings and that the Bill was not received well by the members of the public. I am among those members who did not receive it well. I said as one person who was in one of the camps, people should not just talk about gukurahundi....
*THE HON. SPEAKER: Order and switch off your microphone. Hon. Member, you are not like the ordinary members of the public. If you follow Section 119 of the Constitution, it says that you should uphold this Constitution. You are not like the generality of the people. You are bound by the Constitution. So, confine yourself to the issues that are in the Bill only.
*HON. CHINOTIMBA: Thank you Mr. Speaker. What I want
to say is that I have heard people saying, when I was in Dzapasi, there was what we used to refer to as the Entumbane battle that killed a lot of people. People were put in trains and came to their homes. The issue that we are trying to talk about is to open old wounds that had healed– [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] – When others were debating, people were silent, so allow me to debate in silence. Please protect me Mr. Speaker.
*THE HON. SPEAKER: Order, order. Hon. Member, please understand. Debate the issues that are around the Bill only – [HON.
MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] –
*HON. CHINOTIMBA: It appears as if I am now appearing to be stupid because people were discussing about people being killed in Bindura. I am trying to explain but you want me to confine myself to the Bill. People were talking about people murdered and I want also to make reference to the same issues. I want to give reference to the
Entumbane issue....
THE HON. SPEAKER: Order, order. Hon. Chinotimba if you recall, I told Hon. Majome not to talk about the past issues in Bindura because that is not what is contained in their report as a Committee and she complied.
*HON. CHINOTIMBA: Hon. Speaker, people are talking about
Gukurahundi issues and other such issues. If that is the case, Mr. Speaker, let me end here and say that we will not agree. I do not like this Bill whether you accept it or not. I am not saying the Executive is wrong. The Executive has done well to bring this Bill, but people talk about corruption. They discuss issues about corruption. If the Executive cannot see, clearly this Bill will destroy the country. I will not allow it. I thank you.
HON. HOLDER: Thank you Mr. Speaker Sir. I rise to add my voice to this Peace and National Reconciliation Commission Bill [H.B. 2, 2017]. Mr. Speaker, we do not live in the past. Rivers never flow in reverse. Let us try to be like a river. Let us focus on the future. Let us always be positive...
HON. ADV. CHAMISA: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker Sir.
THE HON. SPEAKER: Hon. Chamisa, what is your point of
order.
*HON. ADV. CHAMISA: I am pained Hon. Speaker. I am pained by the fact that we are debating an important Bill and Hon. Chinotimba may take it lightly. It is not good for an Hon. Member like Hon. Chinotimba...
THE HON. SPEAKER: Order. I have ruled the Hon. Member out of order, so you cannot debate that.
*HON. ADV.CHAMISA: I am not debating Hon. Speaker.
THE HON. SPEAKER: Do not debate what Hon. Chinotimba
did. He was ruled out of order.
*HON. ADV.CHAMISA: Yes, he has been ruled out of order, but my request, Mr. Speaker, is that if we want to build our country, when we have such a debate, we should not have too much differences. We should not appear as if we are playing games or fighting. The Vice President is here, he is representing the entire country. He represents the President and the Constitution as you have said. My point of order is, that let us give due gravity to this issue because this came out as a result of the people’s input. We should debate this issue bearing in mind that these issues came from the people. These are the people’s issues and not ours. It is not our opinion. If the Vice President is here, the country is here and we represent the people. We must respect that.
*THE HON. SPEAKER: Hon. Chamisa, have you decided to take over my presiding over this House? I have already given those comments and made a ruling that no one should talk about any other issues except what is contained in the Bill. I am still holding that position. I thank you.
HON. HOLDER: I ask Hon. Members to please give me a chance to express myself freely without any disturbance. Mr. Speaker, I will start again that rivers do not flow in reverse. Let us try to be like a river. Let us focus on the future. Let us always be positive.
Mr. Speaker, this Bill does not seek to unite people. The reason why I say this is that in 1980, when independence was granted to this country, there was no truth and reconciliation. Nothing was done to Smith when he did worse. Now, when we are beginning to look into issues to try and criticise our own Government. That is now treasonous, Mr. Speaker. We have a new Constitution, but we need to remember that this Constitution that we adopted is a Constitution that came with a compromise because there was the GNU and there were all sorts of things. It is very liberal. A lot of laws are not yet aligned to this
Constitution.
In 1987, as Hon. Mandipaka said, on 22nd December there was a unity accord and the third force which Hon. Mandipaka said, a third force is trying to cause division amongst ourselves. Already we have division here, Mr. Speaker. Our division here is between the opposition and the ruling party, ZANU PF and MDC. We divide the people and us as MPs. MP means men of the people. Our power derives from the people...
THE HON. SPEAKER: Order, order. I appeal to the Hon. Members not to be emotional – [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.]- Hon. Holder, what you are saying is an appeal towards amendment of the Constitution. As long as this Constitution has not been amended vis-a-vis the section that deals with this Commission, there is no way you can wish away the provisions of the Constitution.
So, in that regard, we must discuss the Bill presented here by the
Executive. Thank you.
HON. HOLDER: Thank you Mr. Speaker, but that is not going to intimidate me. I would actually say to you, Mr. Speaker Sir...
THE HON. SPEAKER: Order, order! Hon. Holder you will withdraw that statement.
HON. HOLDER: Thank you Mr. Speaker. I will withdraw that statement, but Mr. Speaker Sir, I stand guided. May I proceed with my debate Mr. Speaker Sir?
THE HON. SPEAKER: Sit down, thank you. Read your Standing Orders. You cannot dispute the ruling of the Chair, otherwise I am going to send you out. Hon. Holder, can you sit down please?
HON. CROSS: This afternoon, Mr. Speaker, I wish to address the House from the perspective of being a Zimbabwean and I can recall when I was growing up in the Matopo Hills in Matabeleland because I was born near Mbalabala. I recall visiting villages and speaking to the elderly people, particularly the men – [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] – I spoke to elders who wore the ring on their heads. I think you know what I am talking about. These were the Indunas, the tribal leaders.
I can well remember these…..
THE HON. SPEAKER: Hon. Chamisa once said the Hon. Vice
President is here. He represents the presidency and we should respect that. He has appealed to this august House that he would like to follow clearly and please less noise. You do not seem to be respecting that.
Thank you.
HON. CROSS: Mr. Speaker, I can remember these elders in the
Isindebele villages talking about the time when they used to raid the
Shona villages in the north and they talked in derogatory terms about the Shona people. I can remember them referring to the Shona people in extremely derogatory terms. This means that for them the war that existed in the country before 1893 was as alive today as it was then. I was a young White Rhodesian, who went right through the war of liberation. Mr. Speaker in the war of liberation….
*HON. CHINOTIMBA: On a point of order, this White man is
talking about selous scouts in here. He killed our people. How can he talk about peace and reconciliation? Many people died because of this
White person – [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] –
THE HON. SPEAKER: Order, order! Hon. Chinotimba, come
back. Your Standing Orders here clearly state that you cannot refer to an Hon. Member in the manner you have done. Can you please withdraw the statement?
*HON. CHINOTIMBA: He said it himself that he is a Rhodesian.
THE HON. SPEAKER: Can you withdraw your statement!
*HON. CHINOTIMBA: I withdraw, but he is a White Hon.
Member, he is not Black. I am Black. – [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible
interjections.] –
THE HON. SPEAKER: Order, order! Hon. Cross, please avoid raising emotive issues that are historical. – [HON. MEMBERS:
Inaudible interjections.] –
THE HON. VICE PRESIDENT AND MINISTER OF
NATIONAL HEALING, PEACE AND RECONCILIATION (HON.
MPHOKO): I am sorry, I might be taking it over from you; I am not sure. I think it is important to guide some of our Members. What is happening in this country is that the President cannot operate outside the Constitution; nobody can.
You have been demanding us to come here to Parliament, using the Constitution. So there is nothing amiss by this Bill because it is here in the Constitution. Nobody here, even if you think you want the Bill not
to be discussed, you cannot clear it from the Constitution. First and foremost, let us fulfill the Constitution.
Mr. Speaker Sir, we have an obligation, I have an obligation charged to me by the President and Parliament and I want to make sure that the Bill passes through. It is very important. Only the fear of the unknown can scare the people, otherwise this Bill is for the nation. It is not for me, not for you and not for anybody else; it is for the nation.
Thank you.
Hon. Chinotimba having wanted to raise another point of order.
THE HON. SPEAKER: Order, order! Hon. Chinotimba, please observe protocol. When the Hon. Vice President has explained in support of what I have been trying to put across to yourselves, you cannot raise another point of order please. Hon. Cross please, you must hold yourself.
HON. CROSS: I will try to. Mr. Speaker, we went through a bitter civil war and the winds of that war remain war today. When I was
General Manager of the Cold Storage Commission, I lived through Gukurahundi, all four years of it. I witnessed first time the suffering of people of Matabeleland and the Midlands. Later on in 2005, I witnessed Murambatsvina. Since 2000, we have had the continuous violence against members of the opposition in a democratic process. These are wounds of our nation which have to be healed and I fully support this Bill today. I want to see this Commission established and operational as soon as possible. I just want to make the following comments Mr.
Speaker Sir. The United Nations laid down five principles for
Commissions of this nature.
The first is the right of everybody to know what happened. The other day I met the matron of Mpilo Hospital in Bulawayo. She is a middle aged Ndebele woman by the name Khumalo. Her father was murdered outside Gwanda and the family was never able to find out what happened to him or where he was buried. For that woman who today is middle aged, that incident when she was a young teenager is as real as yesterday. She has a right to know what happened to her father, who were the perpetrator and what were the reasons. So, the first right which the UN prescribes is the right to know what actually happened.
The second is the right to a sense that justice has been done. In Rwanda where we had this terrible genocide in which over a million people died in a very short space of time - 80 thousand people per day, justice was only obtained when the traditional leaders in Rwanda were brought into the game. The murder – [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible
interjections.] –
THE TEMPORARY SPEAKER (HON. DZIVA): Order Hon.
Members from my right and from my left.
HON. CROSS: The modern methods of justice simply will not be able to cope with the volume of work that was involved – [HON.
MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] –
THE TEMPORARY SPEAKER: Order Hon. Members, I want
to hear Hon. Cross debating.
HON. CHINOTIMBA: On a point of order Madam Speaker.
THE TEMPORARY SPEAKER: What is your point of order?
*HON. CHINOTIMBA: My point of order is that I was talking about Gukurahundi and I wanted to express when this started and who started it? Why was I ruled out of order and why is Hon. Cross talking about Gukurahundi when I have been barred from talking about it and the Chimurenga. I wanted to say the first thing was not Gukurahundi but it was Entumbane. They are saying no, but this one is talking about it. People were killed - who killed them? So, let us leave that out. He is labeling me a murderer when I liberated him. For him to be in this House, it is because of me. They should stop such issues. I have been barred from speaking
THE TEMPORARY SPEAKER: Order Hon. Chinotimba. Hon.
Members, can we please maintain order in the House – [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] – Hon. Members, I will not hesitate to take action right now, if you continue in this mood. – [HON.
CHINOTIMBA: Inaudible interjection.] – Hon. Chinotimba and Hon.
Mawere, do not force me to take action against you. – [HON.
CHINOTIMBA: Inaudible interjection.] – Hon. Chinotimba!
THE VICE PRESIDENT AND MINISTER OF NATIONAL HEALING, PEACE AND RECONCILIATION (HON. MPHOKO):
On a point of order Madam Speaker.
THE TEMPORARY SPEAKER: What is your point of order?
HON. MPHOKO: Thank you Madam Speaker. I left Cabinet to come here because you wanted me to be present. Now, you are busy discussing something outside the Bill. Can you please guide us Madam
Speaker, that we follow the discussion not any other discussion please. If anybody comes here and talks about something different, rule them out of order please. I left Cabinet to come here and now you are not even making use of me. I thank you.
*THE TEMPORARY SPEAKER: Hon. Members, order. I
heard Hon. Chinotimba’s point of order but I would want to correct you. When you rose you said you did not support this Bill. This is why the
Speaker said you cannot say you do not support this Bill because it is in the Constitution. You should have pointed out what exactly it is in the Bill that you do not want.
Secondly Hon. Members, listen whilst I explain this other issue – [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] – Order, Hon. Members. I am still speaking – [HON. HOLDER: Inaudible interjections.] – Hon. Holder, can you please respect the Chair. Hon. Member, the other issue is that you must not repeat what have been said, the Vice President has heard about it. We want new ideas as regard the input of the Bill; debate around the Bill and not anything. Please do not comment on things that have already been spoken about.
HON. HOLDER: On a point of order Madam Speaker.
THE TEMPORARY SPEAKER: I will not take any point of order from now – [HON. HOLDER: Point of order.] – I am not going to take your point of order.
HON. CROSS: Thank you Madam Speaker, the point that I am making on the second principle for the United Nations is that it may be necessary under these circumstances to involve our traditional leaders in this process of seeking justice for our communities.
The third principle is the right to compensation. Madam Speaker, we know that during these periods which the President called ‘moments of madness’, people suffered physical losses and we need to ensure that there are some mechanisms available for compensation.
The fourth principle laid down by the United Nations is the right to understand that this will never happen again. These kinds of incidents and maladministration will not happen again. The fifth item is the right to written record. This Bill, in my view falls, short of these five principles.
In addition to that, I would like to raise the question of the Second Schedule for the benefit of the Vice President. In the Second Schedule of the Bill, there are provisions under sections 10, 11, 12, 13 and 16 which provide for the Commission to provide loans to members of the
Commission for houses - [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.]
–
THE TEMPORARY SPEAKER: Order Hon. Members. I want
to hear Hon. Cross; I cannot hear anything from here. Please, can you maintain order in the House?
HON. CROSS: In the sections in the Second Schedule, these provisions – [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] -
THE TEMPORARY SPEAKER: Hon. Members from the back. Sergeant–at-Arms, can you please escort Hon. Pedzisai and Hon. Holder from the back outside the House – [HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear] –
Hon. Pedzisai and Hon. Holder were escorted out of the House by the Sergeant-at-Arms
HON. CROSS: Thank you Madam Speaker, I have a couple of other things to say. So, these sections provide for the Commission to have the right to provide loans to members of staff and the commissioners themselves to purchase houses. In a Commission which is only going to last for ten years, I do not think this is really warranted. I think this is a provision that actually should be excluded from the Bill in its final form.
The final point I am going to make is that in this Bill, the President is given the responsibility of fixing salaries of the Commissioners. I would like to suggest that this should be assigned to Parliament. I do not think that the President should have responsibility for these nuts and bolts of these problems. He should be relieved of that responsibility and it should be given to Parliament, where I think we would be able to do an adequate job. Thank you Madam Speaker.
*HON. MATAMBANADZO: Thank you Mr. Speaker for
affording me this opportunity to add my voice to this debate. Although I would want to debate, the members on the opposite side are making noise.
I rise to say a few words. I am of the view that yes, there are certain things that need to be looked into in this Bill. I believe that the spirit of the Bill has already been tainted by the members on the other side. The members of the opposition should go and caucus. We should also go and caucus. Because when I was listening, I observed that we are no longer seeing eye to eye and we will not come up with a healthy Bill.
We should go and caucus as parties. There were issues pertaining to this Bill being taken to public hearings. The members of the public were not in agreement with this Bill in its form. Peace has already been achieved because the leaders of the liberation army, the late Vice President Joshua Nkomo and His Excellency President Mugabe buried the hatchet and came up with the unity accord.
The Bill was taken to the public. I went to Mutare and when we went there, we were told that Hon. Majome was assaulted in Mutare because of this Bill. Why would you want to proceed with such a Bill? How can we proceed with a Bill that is not acceptable to the ordinary members of the public? Let us scrutinize the Bill as political parties in our Caucuses – thereafter, we will then come back to this august House and make amendments instead of being at each other’s throats.
HON. CHIBAYA: First and foremost, I would like to remind Hon. Members that we are in this august House to represent the people of Zimbabwe and this Constitution was written by the people of
Zimbabwe.
Hon. Speaker, I would like to remind our legislators in this House that there was a Parliamentary Select Committee which was mandated to lead the writing of this Constitution. That Select Committee was made up of legislators drawn from both parties – MDC and ZANU PF. Some of the Members of Parliament are still in this august House. We did consultations and people …
THE TEMPORARY SPEAKER (HON. DZIVA): Hon.
Chibaya, please address the Chair.
HON. CHIBAYA: We did consultations and I am happy that Hon. Speaker you we part of that Committee. The people of Zimbabwe were very clear that they need a Peace and Reconciliation Commission. It is disappointing Hon. Speaker that as Members of Parliament who represent the same people, we are going against this amendment.
This Bill seeks to align our legislation with the provisions of the new Constitution and I do not see anything wrong with it. Mr. Speaker, I am …
THE TEMPORARY SPEAKER: Madam Speaker.
HON. CHIBAYA: Madam Speaker, I am seeing a demon in this
House.
THE TEMPORARY SPEAKER: Order Hon. Chibaya.
HON. CHIBAYA: I do not see the reason why….
THE TEMPORARY SPEAKER: Order Hon. Chibaya. I want
you to stand guided – there are no demons in this Parliament. There are Members of Parliament. Just concentrate on your debate.
HON. CHIBAYA: Thank you very much Madam Speaker. I am simply saying that if Hon. Members on my right are against this Bill, I do not know which part of this country they represent. If they represent the people of this country, they cannot go against the Bill.
Let me just take you to Section 252 (b) under the functions of the
National Peace and Reconciliation Commission; it says ‘to develop and implement programmes to promote national healing, unity and cohesion in Zimbabwe in the peaceful resolution of disputes’. So, Hon. Speaker, I do not see the reason why we are going against this Bill. I just want to thank the Vice President for coming up with this Bill. Hon. Members of this august House were actually complaining that you were not coming to align the Constitution with our legislation. I want to thank you very much and I support you.
HON. MUDARIKWA: Thank you Madam Speaker. I rise to add my voice in a different dimension because the issue of peace and reconciliation is what Hon. Chibaya said – having a way forward on national healing, unity and peace in Zimbabwe. It is alright that certain issues are being raised but let us not decide to say we want to start our history from this point. As Zimbabweans, we must go back. This is some of the work of the Peace and Reconciliation Commission to even go back to the Portuguese and get the records of the slave trade and what happened. There is no emotion. You must never be emotional because if you are emotional, it shows that you are an agent of somebody wanting to destroy the country – [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] - agents always show by the way they behave.
We are saying we are a country known as Zimbabwe and this
Constitution was produced by everybody. We must thank the Hon. Vice President. He has come here as per your request so that he can listen to what you are saying. I am saying, as a historian, a man of international repute – [HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.] - Oh yes, oh yes, I am a former Minister with a wide range of experience. Hon. Chamisa and I are in that range of Members of Parliament of rare breed. We are looking at a situation as the people of Zimbabwe; how do we go forward as a nation.
We need to know what happened during the time of colonization. We have Acardia here; it was a product of people raped. African women were raped day and night. I was in Kenya recently. The Mao- Mao, with the assistance of the Government are suing the British. All of you who have debated are scared of attacking the British because we must attack the British for colonisation and we must demand the heads of Chingaira and Mashayamombe because there is no way that we can [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.]- I am speaking, I am not singing and I do not need people to join me in my speaking –
[Laughter.]-
The whole thing at the present moment is that we want to correct ourselves. Hon. Cross here, I know in confidence that he is a shareholder in Thomas Meikles. Thomas Meikles is made out of looting. Thomas Meikle was the chairman of the loot committee and he is a beneficiary of theft. His shareholding is an accomplice…
THE TEMPORARY SPEAKER: Order Hon. Mudarikwa.
Order, Order Hon. Members, I think I take guidance from what the Leader of the House spoke about two weeks ago when it comes to issues to do with pointing fingers at other Members of Parliament. He said that, all the Members of Parliament that are here have no or current criminal records and that is why you are Hon. Members of Parliament. Desist as Hon. Members from making allegations. We have freedom of speech, freedom of expression, but let us remain guided and focused by our debate. Hon. Mudarikwa, please focus on the contents of the Bill and the debate and do not lose focus. You may continue.
HON. MUDARIKWA: Well, I withdraw but it was maybe the
concept. I said the Meikles Holdings and Thomas Meikle is a product of a criminal act that was committed.
HON. MLISWA: Can I say this. It is not proper to talk about a public listed company. It has 50 000 shareholders and you cannot talk about it because some of us are shareholders and they are not here to defend themselves. Meikles are not here to defend themselves and we cannot talk about the company which is not here to defend itself. It is now a public listed company -[HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible
interjections.]-
THE TEMPORARY SPEAKER: Order, order Hon. Members.
HON. MLISWA: Madam Speaker, it is the same company that has given 500 cars to ZANU PF to campaign. Are you not forgetting that and you do not even know who gives you money? Meikles has donated cars to you. You are so ignorant because you do not even know the company that gave you money. It gave ZANU PF 500 cars, why are they not talking about it? - [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.]-
Order Hon. Mliswa. Order Hon. Members. Hon. Mliswa, order. Hon. Mliswa, you have raised a point of order to me and not to the other Members of Parliament and I
have to respond. - [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] - Order Hon. Mudarikwa. Order Hon. Members. Hon. Members please stand guided, I think I made a ruling on this issue and I said no to allegations.
We must respect each other.
In our Standing Orders we have privileges as Parliament – freedom of speech and whatsoever, but we must remain guided. Hon. Mudarikwa, I want you to remain guided and focus on the contents of the Bill please if you want to debate.
HON. MLISWA: On a point of order, he called me pfutseki. He insulted me pfutseki and he even says we can go outside. I am ready to go with him outside if he wants us to go outside anytime. He is big and he will come down hard. As big as he is, he will come down hard. I will go for his jaw, I am not a player.
Hon. Mliswa, approach the
Chair.
HON. MLISWA: He must withdraw I am not pfutseki. He said pfutseki to me in here. Let us go and you will see it when you come back. I will deal with your fat burley - [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.]-
THE TEMPORARY SPEAKER: Order Hon. Members. Hon.
Mliswa, approach the Chair.
THE VICE PRESIDENT AND MINISTER OF NATIONAL
HEALING, PEACE AND RECONCILIATION (HON. MPHOKO):
Thank you Madam Speaker. We are not achieving anything. We are making so much noise – [AN HON. MEMBER: It is healthy.]- No, confusion is not healthy.
Madam Speaker, I want to propose that this debate should be adjourned because it looks like people do not understand what we are supposed to be discussing.
The Vice President and Minister of National Healing, Peace and Reconciliation has asked for this debate to adjourn so that Members of Parliament can go and read the Bill because from what we are debating, it shows that you do not know
the Bill at all.
HON. MPHOKO: Madam Speaker, the debate on the Bill cannot
be adjourned until tomorrow because I am attached to the visiting king.
I will be here next Tuesday….
Motion put and agreed to.
Debate to resume: Tuesday, 23rd May, 2017.
*HON. ADV. CHAMISA: It is appropriate as Parliament to thank
Government leadership because when we ask them to come to
Parliament, they come. So, we would like to thank the Vice President,
Hon. Mphoko for coming. We want to thank you because we – [HON.
MATAMBANADZO: Inaudible interjections.] –
THE TEMPORARY SPEAKER: Hon. Matambanadzo, can you
withdraw that statement?
*HON. MATAMBANADZO: I withdraw Madam Speaker.
*HON. ADV. CHAMISA: I hope what I am going to say will not
hurt anyone because I am saying this with good intentions for nation building. I just want to thank the Vice President for coming. He has shown respect for this august House. The heated debates or conflicts that you witnessed here are what we also need to work on as Members of Parliament. What I ask you to take to the President, Hon Vice President is that we also need peace and reconciliation in Parliament – [Laughter] – so that we reach that level where we can debate issues without raising emotions but debate with love because we cannot build a nation without love. Love and peace begins with us and then spreads to the rest of the nation. So, Hon Vice President, this is my plea which I am asking you to take to the President and Cabinet to help us reconcile with each other in our different parties and constituencies because we have people here who are fuming and it is difficult to handle them – [HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear.] -
THE TEMPORARY SPEAKER: I think what Hon. Chamisa has
said is very important and I agree with that. The reconciliation must start from this House.
On the motion of HON. MATUKE seconded by HON. GONESE,
the House adjourned at Nineteen Minutes past Four o’clock p.m.