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NATIONAL ASSEMBLY HANSARD 26 November 2019 46-08

PARLIAMENT OF ZIMBABWE

Tuesday, 26th November, 2019

The National Assembly met at a Quarter-past Two o’clock p.m.

PRAYERS

(THE HON. SPEAKER in the Chair)

ANNOUNCEMENTS BY THE HON. SPEAKER

TREE PLANTING EVENTS

THE HON. SPEAKER: Order, order.  I have to inform the House that the Ministry of Environment, Tourism and Hospitality Industry through the Forestry Commission, has proposed to involve Members of Parliament in efforts to curb deforestation, by organising tree planting events in all parts of the country.

Every Member of Parliament is encouraged to establish two woodlots of 1 600 trees each.  Hon. Members are requested to check in their pigeon holes for more information on this noble initiative.  For any clarifications, Hon. Members are kindly requested to contact the Director, Public Relations, Rtd. Major E. Mbewe, in Office No. 312, Third Floor, Parliament Building.

APPOINTMENT TO THE STANDING RULES AND ORDERS

COMMITTEE

THE HON. SPEAKER:  Following the appointment of Hon. M. Chombo as Deputy Minister of Local Government and Public Works, the ZANU PF party has nominated Hon. Matsikenyere to replace her on the Committee on Standing Rules and Orders – [HON. MEMBERS:

Hear, hear.] – I believe that is accepted by acclamation

MOTION

LEAVE TO MOVE FOR SUSPENSION OF STANDING ORDER

NOS. 51, 62 (2) AND 139

                              THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE, LEGAL AND

PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (HON. ZIYAMBI):  Mr. Speaker

Sir, I seek leave of the House to move that the provisions of Standing

Orders No. 51, 62 (2), 135, 136 and 139 regarding the automatic adjournment of the House at Five Minutes to Seven o’clock p.m. on

sitting days other than a Friday and at Twenty-five Minutes past One o’clock p.m. on a Friday, Private Members’ Motions taking

precedence on Wednesdays after Question Time and that Question

Time shall be on Wednesday, the referral of Bills to portfolio committees, procedures in connection with the Parliamentary Legal Committee and stages of Bills respectively, be suspended for today and for the remaining series of sittings in respect of the following:-

  1. Business relating to the Budget and the Committee of Supply;
  2. The Finance Bill;
  3. The Appropriation Bill;
  4. Zimbabwe Investment Development Agency Bill [H.B. 2,

2019];

  1. Money Laundering and Proceeds of Crime Bill [H. B. 4, 2019];
  2. Coroner’s Office Bill [H. B. 5, 2019]

HON. MUSHORIWA:  I object.

The above motion having been objected to, was moved to

Wednesday, 27th November, 2019.

MOTION

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

        THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE, LEGAL AND

PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (HON. ZIYAMBI): Thank you Mr.

Speaker Sir. I move that Orders of the Day Nos. 1 to 4 be stood over until Order of the Day No. 5 has been disposed of.

       Hon. Mliswa having stood up on a point of privilege

         THE HON. SPEAKER: No, that should have been done after notices of motions. I cannot move backwards and forward.

COMMITTEE STAGE:

ZIMBABWE INVESTMENT DEVELOPMENT AGENCY BILL [H.

  1. 2, 2019]

         Fifth Order read: Committee Stage: Zimbabwe Investment Development Agency Bill [H. B. 2, 2019].

        House in Committee

        Clause 1, put and agreed to.

        On Clause 2;

        THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE, LEGAL AND

PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (HON. ZIYAMBI):  Thank you Hon.

Chair, I had discussions with the Chairperson of Foreign Affairs and International Trade, as well as Industry and we agreed that we are dropping the amendments that they proposed and we adopt mine.  So, in line with that Hon. Chair, on Clause 2, which is the interpretation Clause, I propose that on page 3 of the Bill, which is lines 19 to 20, we delete the definition of board and substitute the following definition.

“Board means the Zimbabwe Investment Development Agency

Advisory Board established by section 6”.  On page 6 of the Bill, lines 27 to 28, delete the definition of Minister and substitute the following definition; “Minister means (a) Any Minister or Vice President to whom the President may assign the administration of this Act. (b) Where the President has reserved the administration of the Act to himself or herself”.  I so submit Hon. Chair.

       THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON: Hon. Minister, can you

confirm whether you are dropping all the amendments by the Chairperson.

        HON. ZIYAMBI: That is what I am saying.

   HON. MUSHORIWA: The amendments in this Order Paper on

ZIDA are amendments of the Joint Committee on Industry and International Trade.  We are shocked to hear that the two Chairpersons outside the – [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] –

       THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON: Hon. Members, can we have

order in the House please.

 HON. MUSHORIWA: That the two Chairs outside the Committee could actually make – HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible 

interjections.] –

       THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON: Which Clause are you

debating?

           HON. MUSHORIWA: Remember Chair, you asked him whether

it refers to all the amendments and I am responding to that to simply say, it cannot be all amendments because the amendments that are on the

Order Paper are amendments of the Committee and not of individual Members.  it is so wrong to then come here and say, the Chair has agreed outside the Committees for the Minister to drop all the amendments.  That is procedurally incorrect because the Committee worked on these amendments.

         HON. K. PARADZA: Excuse me Mr. Chairman.  Can the Hon.

Member debate or cite the sections?

         HON. P. D. SIBANDA: On a point of order Hon. Chair.  Sorry, I did not hear your response to the Hon. Member’s concern.  I think that his concern basically relates to issues of procedure; No. 1, because he is saying if the Hon. Minister and the Hon. Chairperson of one of the

Committees that were responsible for looking into this Bill are agreed on their own, can it be put on record that the amendment that has been agreed to by the Hon. Minister is a private arrangement between the Hon. Chairperson of the Foreign Affairs and International Trade Committee and the Hon. Minister but that there was no involvement of the whole Committee.  I think it is important that it be stated and put on record because you cannot leave it like that.  You cannot brush it like

that.

       Amendment to Clause 2 put and agreed to.

        Clause 2, as amended, put and agreed to.

         HON. P. D. SIBANDA:  I have an objection to make Hon. Chair.  When we are talking about investment, it is a very critical area of interest to us as citizens of Zimbabwe and it is my view that ...

               THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON:  Order, order Hon. Member.

Are you now debating the amendment?

                 HON. P. D. SIBANDA: No, I am not debating the amendment.

  THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON: So, what are you debating?

         HON. P. D. SIBANDA: I am debating the procedure that has been used to amend through a private bilateral engagement between one individual Member of a Committee.  I believe with the importance ....

         THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON:  Hon. Sibanda, we are going

clause by clause.  So if there is an area that you feel not happy with, you are going to be given the floor for you to put your own input.

         HON. P. D. SIBANDA:  But Hon. Chair, let me tell you something.  Was it not supposed to be that the Committees should have sat down and looked at those amendments, instead of having an individual bringing an amendment and saying this is the amendment that I need.

THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON: But, that question has already

been overtaken by events.  I am saying that we are going to debate clause by clause, meaning that the point that you are raising is now immaterial.

HON. P. D. SIBANDA: So are we saying that you are now substituting the role of the Committee by ensuring that Members debate individually here?  Is it what you are stating Hon. Chair?

THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON: No, that is not what I am

saying.  What I said is what I said and for me to be repeating does not make any sense.  You must have heard what I told you that we are going to debate Clause by Clause.  So, the statement that you are raising at the moment, I told you that it has been overtaken by events and it is immaterial at the moment.

HON. P. D. SIBANDA: Hon. Chair, are you saying that the debate, the close scrutiny by a Committee of a Bill is immaterial?  Is it what you are saying and can we put that on record?

THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON: I am not referring to the Committee at the moment.  I am referring to the statement that you are saying.

HON. P. D. SIBANDA: May I ask Hon. Chair that, what will this House lose if this matter were to be referred back to the Committee so that the Committees can then have a look at it?

THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON: Hon. Sibanda, what will we

lose if the Committee has some issues to debate? I am going to give them the floor, the opportunity to raise whatever issues they would want to input here in the House and that is why I am here.

HON. P. D. SIBANDA: We do not need the bigger Committee.

HON. MUSHORIWA: Mr. Chairman, I seek your guidance.  Can it be recorded here that all the amendments that have been put on the

Order Paper have not been withdrawn by the Committee of Industry and Commerce.  To that extent Hon. Chair, when you go clause by clause as you are saying, you should actually call us to raise these points of the amendments that the Committee did and it should never have a situation where a work that was done by Parliament and money poured and citizens and stakeholders’ contributions cannot be washed away by a bilateral arrangement between two people.  It cannot happen.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE, LEGAL AND

PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (HON. ZIYAMBI): Hon. Chair, the

proposal by the Chair is there.  It is my prerogative as the mover of the Bill to accept or to reject.  Let us proceed.

HON. P. D. SIBANDA: What do you mean when you say it is your prerogative?  Is it your prerogative to suspend the due processes of Parliament?  Is it your prerogative Hon. Minister, to suspend the due processes of Committees of Parliament just because you are the one that is moving the Bill?

HON. ZIYAMBI:  Hon. Chair, when we are debating a clause, after the debate, the Minister responds.  It is either you accept or you reject.  If I reject we divide the House.  I am not sure why the Hon.

Member is so ignorant of basic House rules.

HON. P. D. SIBANDA: It is unfortunate that my brothers want to use very unparliamentary kind of language.  The issue of ignorance cannot be measured.  I do not think it is easy for us to measure who is more ignorant between myself and the Hon. Minister, but what I want to indicate is that a Chairperson of a Committee cannot raise his own personal opinion and then you want to take it as if it is the position of a Committee.  The Committee should be allowed to sit down, deliberate on those issues and bring a report here and not an individual opinion.

On Clause 2:

HON. K. PARADZA:  I move that on page 6 of the Bill, delete the definition of “Minister” on lines 27-28 and substitute – “Minister” means the Minister of Finance or any other Minister to whom the

President may from time to time assign the administration of this Act”.

        THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE, LEGAL AND

PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (HON. ZIYAMBI:  Hon. Chair, as I indicated, I am proposing amendments in my name – [HON.

MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] –

  THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON (HON. MUTOMBA): Can we

have less noise in the House Hon. Members.

HON. ZIYAMBI:  And substituting what Hon. Paradza had proposed.

       Amendment to Clause 2 put and agreed to.

        Clause 2, as amended, put and agreed to.

Clause 3 put and agreed to.

On Clause 4:

HON. K. PARADZA:  On page 8 of the Bill, after line 6, insert the following paragraphs –

  • to have investment officers in provinces and districts representing the agency;
  • to support the devolution programme by having provincial representation and offices in every province of the country;
  • to promote investments across the country especially for marginalised groups such as women and youth and providing crosslinkages with mainstream investors.

HON. MUSHORIWA:  I thought the Hon. Chair was going to discuss and make the reason why we actually believe that these amendments are on Clause 4 as they appear on the Order Paper so that the Minister would understand the basis behind the Committee’s position.

HON. K PARADZA:  It is already here and it would be wasting time.

THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON: It is clearly stated and you

have got the Bill with you.

HON. ZIYAMBI:  Having considered what they are proposing, it is already covered.  I put it to the House that we maintain it as it is under Clause 4.  It covers what they want covered by these amendments.

HON. MUSHORIWA:  It is not true Hon. Minister that Clause 4 covers the amendments that the Hon. Committees of this House are proposing.  It is my view that on page 8 of the Bill on line 6 – the investment officers in provinces and districts representing the agency and the quest for devolution...

THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON:  Sorry Hon. Member, initially

you said these are not the views of the Committee but now you seem to be saying it is your personal opinion.  I cannot understand which is which now.

HON. MUSHORIWA:  Chair, you did not hear me well.  The amendments that you are seeing on this Order Paper are the amendments of the Committee.  What we objected is the narration that we had got from the Hon. Minister that they had a private agreement with the Chair to remove these amendments that were done by the Committee.

My point is to simply say as a country, we are crying and saying devolution is the new revolution and in anything – all the statements that have been said – devolution takes centre stage and it is to that regard that we believe that in all provinces, ZIDA should be represented so that we promote investments across the country especially in the marginalised areas.

If you look into the clause as it currently stands, there is no provision and it is for this reason that we ask the Minister to consider these amendments because these amendments were well thought of after the Committees had gone across the whole country.  These are the views of the people – by the way, these views dovetail with all Government policies that the Hon. Minister is representing in this House.

HON. ZIYAMBI:  Thank you Hon. Chair.  Let us proceed.

HON. MUSHORIWA: Is what the Hon. Minister doing fair?

How does he simply say let us proceed when we are raising issues here?  Is the Hon. Minister trying to say that the views raised by the Committee and by the stakeholders are of no consequence?  He should actually persuade us if his point is of no consequence, he should actually persuade us if his point is correct rather than to simply say let us proceed.

     THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON: The Minister has already

responded to it.

        Clause 4 put and agreed to.

        On Clause 5:

   HON. MUSHORIWA: I raised a point and I am waiting for a

ruling.  After having raised an issue we expect you to then make a ruling.

     THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON: The Minister has already

responded to that.

            HON. MUSHORIWA: At what stage?  If you want this House to

continue to make laws then I think it is only fair that we do things procedurally.  If you simply want them to just reload this Bill, it will be

okay…

     THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON: That is not the issue and that

is not why I am here.   We are supposed to be procedural.  The Minister has already responded to that.

        HON. MUSHORIWA: What did he say?

       THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON:  He said the issues are

covered.

         HON. MUSHORIWA: We then brought to him to say that they are not covered.  Can he show us where they are covered?

 THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON:  Which issues are you talking about now?

  HON. MUSHORIWA: The amendments that we have put as a

Committee; the issue of devolution and the other specifications.  His argument is to say that they are covered in Clause 4 and we are saying they are not covered.

        THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE, LEGAL AND

PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (HON. ZIYAMBI): Hon. Chair, I

have already responded and my response it that let us proceed as it is.  Let us follow the procedures because that is a position that is not going to change.  I thank you.

      HON. MADZIMURE: I have got fresh points that the Hon.

Minister may consider.  As we travel the road towards devolution, we must make sure that any law that we pass in this House now, has a bearing that we are moving towards devolution.  As a result, it will be meaningless and pointless for us to just pass laws when we are fully aware that they will eventually contradict the spirit of devolution.

Therefore whatever law that we make from now on must ensure that it takes on board the issue of devolution.  Hence, if we want investment in those areas that we are going to give that responsibility to promote investment to grow their economies, then we must allow them to have offices that will be able to deliver economic development.  So this is the argument and if the Minister does not see sense in that, then it means that we are not sincere as far as the issue of devolution is concerned.

THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON: The Minister is saying that he

has already responded to that and the areas that you are talking about are covered within…

HON. MADZIMURE: Allow the Minister to respond; I am not debating with the Chair but with the Minister.

THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON: I am just confirming that the Minister has said he has already responded and everything that you are talking about is covered– [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjection.] –

HON. MADZIMURE: After I raised my first point what did the Minister say? We are not debating with the Chair; we are debating with the Minister.  The Chair is there to facilitate debate not for the Chair to debate with us.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE, LEGAL AND

PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (HON. ZIYAMBI): Hon. Chair, can we divide the House and proceed – [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible

interjections.]-

THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON: Order, order in the House! We

cannot continue debating same issues which have already been responded to.

HON. P. D. SIBANDA: My understanding is that the Hon. Minister has asked you to divide the House but my point of clarification that I am seeking from you is on what point are we dividing the House.

Are we dividing the House on the point that ZIDA should not be devolved to provinces so that as we approach the division we are exactly aware on what it is that you want us to divide.  Is he saying he does not want devolution in terms of this particular Act or not?

THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON:  The Minister said he is not taking the amendment on Clause 4.

HON. P. D. SIBANDA: The last point that the Minister raised was that let us divide the House.  So, my question is on what point are dividing the House?  Are we voting on whether devolution in terms of this Bill should be implemented or not or what point are we dividing the House on?

THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON:  Hon. Sibanda, we are

proceeding.

HON. P. D. SIBANDA: The Hon. Minister asked you to divide the House.

THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON: I said we are to proceed, did

you not hear me saying that.

HON. P. D. SIBANDA: On what point are we dividing the House on? Hon. Chair do not be emotional about these things, there is no need to be emotional. 

On Clause 4;

HON. P. D. SIBANDA: You see, when we are talking about

Parliament, Parliament is supposed to be the doorway of democracy. …

THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON: Hon. Member, you are out of

order. I am ruling you out of order.

HON. P. D. SIBANDA: What exactly are you ruling me out of order for Hon. Chair?

THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON: I put the question on the amendment of Clause 4, is there any debate. No debate.

HON. P. D. SIBANDA: I am debating. Why are you ruling me out of order when I am debating?

THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON: Are you debating?

HON. P. D. SIBANDA: Yes!

THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON: He is debating – [HON.

MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] – Okay, he is debating.

HON. P. D. SIBANDA: Hon. Chair, I am quite sure that when the people of Zimbabwe in 2013 contributed to the Constitution and demanded that there should be devolution, they were highlighting a certain aspect of their aspirations. Now, the Hon. Member has raised a very important point. I come from Binga and that is over 1 200 km away from Harare. If the point of devolution that the Hon. Member has raised is not captured in this Bill, do you know what it means Hon. Chair? It means that ZIDA, like all other agencies of Government will be stationed in Harare and what does it mean? It means that all decisions pertaining to investment will be taken here in Harare but the people of Zimbabwe when they contributed towards the formulation of the Constitution; they indicated that they want decisions to be made at a local level.

Therefore, what the Hon. Member is raising is not a political point.

It is a pertinent point that is saying this Bill should capture the spirit of devolution.  Why is the Hon. Minister not justifying why he is refusing devolution to be encompassed in this Bill? We believe that is important unless he has got a very good reason why he is refusing. We do not want investment to continue to  be around and surrounding Harare. We want devolution to be in each and every part of this country. People in Mukumbura and in Beitbridge where the Vice President comes from want to have access to ZIDA. Therefore, why should devolution not be taken into this Bill? That is what we want the Hon. Minister to explain.

HON. MADZIMURE: Hon. Chair, whenever you make a

decision you are setting a precedent. So in this case we are setting a precedent where we are allowing laws to pass through this House without the laws taking into consideration …

THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON: Are you contributing to the amendment?

HON. MADZIMURE: I am saying we are setting a precedent by allowing this law to pass through this House without taking the issue of devolution seriously. Mr. Speaker, why we have investments failing to take off is because the majority of the people, who make those decisions, make those decisions on behalf of the people not by the people. Decisions are centralised here in Harare when people in Mutare want certain developments. They want their minerals to be mined in a certain way and with people that they trust. They do not make those decisions. They are made on their behalf by the people in Harare and this is why we have got a lot of corruption because power is centralised.

People who have got no interest in what is happening at local level make those decisions and their decisions are purely oiled by corruption. They are influenced by issues of corruption and that is why we have a lot of people being given contracts that never take off. The majority of those people who have been given contracts are getting away scot free. Those people who we have given contracts are not accountable to the people. So Mr. Speaker, the issue is very simple. As we travel towards devolution, we must make sure that the laws that we pass in this House reflect the spirit of devolution.

This is a simple amendment. Why can we not allow the people at local level to make their decisions? This is the starting point. Let us start from this Bill and make sure that whenever a province fails to perform, we know it has everything at its disposal. It has the offices responsible for investment at local level. So if they fail, then you can say such a province is failing but not to have a province that has nothing to do with investment and expect it to attract investment. They cannot negotiate. Let them negotiate on their own behalf not to allow Harare to continuously dominate the whole country. It is not good Mr. Speaker.

This is our plea that Hon. Minister, this is very simple. Allow the people at local level to make their decisions. Right now we have got Tokwe-Mukorsi completed years ago but the people of Masvingo are hungry. There is no irrigation or master plan because the decision was made in Harare whilst it should have been made in Masvingo. Allow the people at local level to make their decisions. This is a simple plea Hon.

Minister.

HON. HAMAUSWA: I also want to concur with the last Speaker that indeed, we need to make sure that this Bill embraces the principles of devolution, especially to ensure that local people have a stake in terms of the exploitation of resources found in their areas. I will give an example of my constituency, Warren Park. You find that the people

there just woke up one day and found Warren Hills being excavated and they do not even have a share of what is happening. They found wetlands being transformed into other investment without them giving an input.

So, if the ZIDA is going to embrace the concept of devolution, it also ensures that our laws in terms of investment will also be linked to the principles of public trust whereby we say those who are making decision are making those decisions on behalf of the people. So if we reject this clause which ensures devolution is embraced in terms of our investment laws, then we are removing the power from the people. We always say the resources are God-given resources to the people, so the local people should actually have a share of their resources.

If we look at the mining communities in Zimbabwe, most people do not have anything to show. I will give an example of Chiadzwa. If you go there, the people are living in serious poverty because they do not have a stake in terms of the developments which are taking place in their areas.  So, Hon. Chair, I request the Hon. Minister to explain why devolution should be excluded.  He should give us strong reasons why devolution should not be part of this Bill.  Thank you.

HON. T. MLISWA: Mr. Chair, what we must realise is that, the former Minister of Industry and Commerce, Hon. Mangaliso Ndlovu had conceded to devolution.  It is unfortunate that the current Minister of Industry and Commerce is not here, who really should be pushing this forward.  I think because of the reshuffling which happened, there are a number of mistakes which are there.  I think what would be important  would be that the Minister who is responsible for this Bill drives it because for as long as the Minister responsible for the Bill is not here, it becomes a problem.

I am glad that the Hon. Vice President is here.  Hon. Vice President, the ministers you appoint never attend these sessions.  You can see that the Minister of Industry and Commerce and the Deputy

Minister is equally not here to drive something that belongs to them.  Hon. Ziyambi, in terms of contribution, Hon. Mangaliso Ndlovu, had conceded to the aspect of devolution – so in the handover and takeover, he could have told the other Minister how far we had gone with this Bill so that we do not waste much time.  There are now contradictions because the Minister who was driving it then, who is seated next to you can concede to that point that yes, devolution had been accepted – [THE

HON. MINISTER OF JUSTICE, LEGAL AND PARLIAMENTARY

AFFAIRS (HON. ZIYAMBI): It is there, sit down and I will tell you.] – but Hon. Minister, you are not telling us where it is exactly.  Hon. Ziyambi has been saying it is there, so tell us where it is and then we move, that is all he needs to do.

However, my point to the Hon. Vice President is that the Ministers never attend.  The Speaker wrote a letter to Ministers who do not attend, the Deputy Ministers are not here and the Cabinet Ministers are not here, they are behaving like others who also boycott this Parliament, they are not different from others.  So, it is important Hon. Minister that you really talk to the President about this.  Parliament is being handicapped because Ministers…

THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON: Hon. Member…

HON. T. MLISWA: I am addressing the Hon. Vice President on a very important issue which he must take note of.

THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON: May you debate the clause.

HON. T. MLISWA: No, but my point is that it is difficult for us to debate when the Ministers who are responsible for those portfolios are not here and we see this Mr. Chair.  They are given Portfolios by the Presidium but they are not here to conduct their duties.  We are hoping that in the reshuffle, some of them will really get to be farmers for life.  We were shocked to see that they were back again and we wonder what message is going because the country is looking forward to ministers to be driving this.  They sit in Cabinet and make decisions on behalf of the nation so that they can be implemented.  So, my plea is that they never come at all.  ZANU PF has got a lot of young people who are intelligent who can be ministers.  May you please relook into that Hon. Vice

President, thank you.

HON. ZIYAMBI: Hon. Chair, I will respond to Hon. Mliswa, not the others because they do not recognise me – [HON.

MEMBERS:Inaudible interjections.] – HON. P. D SIBANDA: Point of order.

THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON: Do you want the Minister to respond?

HON. P. D. SIBANDA: No, no, point of order.  He cannot respond if he thinks that in this House he can only respond to a section of this House when he is supposed to be the Minister of Justice.  He seems not even to appreciate that this is supposed to be a doyen of democracy.  He also seems not to appreciate that if he thinks that he can speak to a section of this House, let him go to Jongwe House not here, we will not allow him to speak here unless he withdraws that – [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] – he will not speak unless he withdraws that.  This is not a ZANU PF House, this is Parliament of

Zimbabwe and the Minister is supposed to answer everyone.  The Hon.

Speaker made a ruling on that issue.  This Hon. Minister is wrong to think that he can influence this House to speak only on one side of the House and not on the rest of it.  We will not allow him to speak unless he withdraws that because he is actually being contemptuous of the ruling that was made by the Speaker.  We then tend to believe that maybe the Hon. Minister might have an internal political agenda against the Speaker of Parliament, otherwise why does he oppose what the Speaker said.  He has his own agenda against the Speaker of Parliament, that is why he is saying things that are opposite what the Hon. Speaker indicated.

HON. ZIYAMBI: Thank you Hon. Chair – [HON. MEMBERS:

Inaudible interjections.] –

THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON: Hon. Sibanda, do not force me

to send you out of the House.  I have given the floor to the House and you are challenging – [HON. P.D. SIBANDA: Hon. Chair, he must withdraw.] - I have given him the floor.  You want him to withdraw without uttering a word – [HON. P.D. SIBANDA: Yes, he has to withdraw.] – How can he withdraw if you do not want to listen to what he is saying.  You do not want the Minister to speak, how can he respond to your issues? – [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] –

HON. ZIYAMBI: Hon. Chair, as I indicated, I will respond to

Hon. Mliswa – [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] –

– [HON. MEMBERS:  Inaudible interjections.] – [HON. P. D. SIBANDA:  Minister ngaa withdrawe speech yake, because kana achiti haaterere zvatinotaura isusu, then we will not listen to him.  We will not give him audience here.] –

THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON:  But he is not the one talking.

Arikutaura ndini.  Amuri kuramba ndini – [HON. P. D. SIBANDA:  Ayehwa isusu hatisi kuramba imimiTiri kuti isusu Speaker ruled vachiti maMembers eoposition haafaniri kutererwa nemaMinisters.  Speaker reversed that position.  Who is he to come to the House and change that position given by the Speaker?  Arikudherera Speaker because Speaker comes from Matabeleland.] –

HON. P. D. SIBANDA:  Hon. Chair, we want to put it on record...

THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON:  I have not recognised you.

HON. P. D. SIBANDA:  We want to put it on record that the Hon.

Minister must withdraw his sentiments that he will not respond to Members of the Opposition.  Unless he does that, then the business of this House should be suspended.  I am telling you.  The Hon. Speaker ruled in this House last time to the effect that Members of the

Opposition should be given audience in this House and if the Hon. Minister is coming here to oppose the Hon. Speaker, then we do not know what internal political fights that you have in ZANU PF and we will not be part and parcel of that – [HON. MEMBERS:  Inaudible interjections.] –

THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON: Order Hon. Members.  May I

take this opportunity to recognise our Vice President, the Vice President of the Republic of Zimbabwe, Hon. Mohadi who is in the House –

[HON. MEMBERS:  Hear, hear.] –

HON. MUSHORIWA:  On a point of order.

THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON:  No point of order.  Would

you give the Minister time to respond?

HON. MUSHORIWA:  No, he cannot.  It is a point of order.  Mr.

Chairman, the Speaker made a ruling in this House...

THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON: And he has not uttered a word.

He has not said a word.

HON. MUSHORIWA:  If he is not going to respond then he should report to the Speaker and report back to Parliament.  This Committee cannot proceed.  Report to the Speaker that he is violating the Speaker’s ruling.

THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON:  The Minister has stood up.

You want to take words out of his mouth.

HON. ZIYAMBI:  Mr. Chair, the Clause that we are dealing with pertains to the functions of the agency and then there will be an organisational structure that will go down to the provinces and it is provided for in Clause 5 but the problem is the Hon. Members are not reading the Bill – [HON. MEMBERS:  Inaudible interjections.] – Can we proceed because it is already covered – [HON. P. D. SIBANDA:  Point of order, point of order.] – If we go to Clause 5, Hon. Mliswa,

Clause 5 (8) you will find out that the agencies shall be allowed to –

[HON. P. D. SIBANDA:  Point of order, point of order.] –  HON. P. D. SIBANDA:  Point of order Mr. Chairman.

THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON:  No more debate on this issue – [HON. P. D. SIBANDA:  Point of order, point of orderI have got a point of order.] – I cannot unrule my ruling – [HON. P. D. SIBANDA:  I have got a point of orderThe Minister should withdraw.  Hazvishande izvo ndezvako izvo.] – I have made a ruling – [HON. P. D. SIBANDA:

No, I am opposing youHe needs to withdraw.] –

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE, LEGAL AND

PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (HON. ZIYAMBI):  I will withdraw

on one condition – [HON. P. D. SIBANDA:  There is no condition.] –

[HON. MEMBERS:  Inaudible interjections.] – – [HON. P. D.

SIBANDA:  Hapasisina, there is no more business to be done in this

House.] –

THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON:  You must have heard what the Minister is saying – [HON. MUSHORIWA:  Mr. Chairman...] – Hon. Mushoriwa, I have made a ruling on this issue and I cannot unrule my ruling – [HON. MUSHORIWA:  But he is refusing to withdraw.  Chair, can you guide him?] -  Out of the House Hon.  Mushoriwa!  Out Hon. Mushoriwa!  I cannot unrule myself.  Out of the House Hon.

Mushoriwa.  Hon. Mushoriwa, I have commanded you to go out of the House – [HON. MUSHORIWA:  You know Chair, you can only eject me from the House not from the Committee.] – [HON. MEMBERS:

Inaudible interjections.] –

On Clause 5:

HON. SACCO:  I move the amendments standing in my name

that:

Clause 5 of the Bill is amended as follows –

  • On Page 8 of the Bill, after line 42 by the insertion of the following paragraph –

“(p) a desk for the health sector”.

  • On page 9 of the Bill, by the deletion of sub-clause (4) on lines 3 to 5 and substitute –

“(4) Persons manning the desk referred to in subsections (1)

(d) to (p) should be senior employees, officers or representatives who are capable and fully empowered to make decisions by their Agency, Departments or Ministry”.

  • On page 9 of the Bill, by the deletion of sub-clause (9) on lines 24 to 27 and substitute –

“(9) Every person, including every Minister, statutory corporation and local authority, whose duty it is to consider requests made by the Agency for purposes of this Act, shall ensure that, as far as possible, priority is given to the consideration of every application and request made by the Agency on behalf of a person carrying on or proposing to carry on an approved activity in a special economic zone or elsewhere”.

  • On page 9 of the Bill, by deletion of sub-clause (10) on lines

28 to 31.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE, LEGAL AND

PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (HON. ZIYAMBI):   Thank

you Chair, on Clause 5, page 9 of the Bill, line 5 – I propose that we delete the words, ‘For not less than 12 months at any time’, then the officers can stay as long as they are needed.  I thank you.

HON. MADZIMURE:  On a point of order Mr. Speaker, as a matter of procedure, you cannot proceed.  The Hon. Minister is already talking of Section 5 – you cannot proceed without …

THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON:  Order, order Hon. Madzimure, I have not recognised you. – [HON. MADZIMURE:  But I stated that it is a point of order!] – Order, order, I have not recognised you Hon. Madzimure whether, it is on a point of order or time to debate.

– [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] – Order, order Hon.

Members, may I have order in the House! – [HON. MEMBERS:

Inaudible interjections.] – Less noise in the House Hon. Members!

HON. ZIYAMBI:  Hon. Chair, I am rejecting the amendments proposed by Hon. Sacco and in place of that, I am proposing that we maintain it as it is, save for the deletion that I indicated on page 9 where

I want to delete the words, ‘For that duration of time’, to delete, ‘For not less than 12 months at any time of the agency’ as indicated in my amendment.  I thank you.

HON. MUSHORIWA:  Mr. Chair, – [HON. MEMBERS:

Inaudible interjections.] – It is the view of the joint Committees –

[HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] –

THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON:  Order, order Hon. Members!

You may proceed Hon. Member.

HON. MUSHORIWA:  Hon. Chair, the amendments that are in the name of Hon. Sacco are amendments that were brought forward by the two Committees of Parliament, i.e. the Committee on Industry and Commerce and Committee on Foreign Trade.

Mr. Chair, if we look at the proposed amendments on Clause 5, after line 42 – we wanted a desk for the health sector to be added and there is a reason to that.  The Bill speaks to the One Stop Investment – it states that there will be a desk for economic zones for immigration, revenue, environment, NSSA, mines and minerals, local authorities, tourism, authority and labour.

Mr. Chair, a desk for health is actually crucial and has to be there because there are several requirements by the Ministry of Health and Child Care that need to be – [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] –   Mr. Chair, there is a reason why a desk for health has to be on the One Stop Investment Service Centre.  It is primarily to do with the fact that there are several requirements that an investor needs to get some licencing from the Ministry of Health and Child Care.  I do not understand why the Hon. Minister can simply decide to say, ‘No, he does not want to understand the rationale behind the inclusion of this desk’.  I do not even understand what effect it would have in including it because if you are including the desks of labour and all the other desks then why are you failing to include the health desk?

Secondly, on lines three to five – we had proposed that …

+HON. R. MPOFU:  On a point of order Mr. Speaker!  Mr.

Speaker, we are tired of people who boycott Parliament whenever the

President comes here.  They are wasting our time every time – [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] – You can go!  You are not even ashamed of yourselves as adults! – [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] – Pack yours and go! Stupid! – [HON. MEMBERS:

Inaudible interjections.] –

Hon. P. D. Sibanda having sat on the desk and shouting, ‘This is Parliament and not Jongwe House, the Minister should withdraw his statement first!’ – [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] – Hon. P. D. Sibanda was escorted out of the House by the SerjeantAt-Arms

         HON. T. MLISWA:  Hon. Chair, I sat down not because I do not have the energy to argue like others.  I am probably more physical and talkative than them but I was just totally ashamed that we have the Hon. Vice President of this nation in this House.  Hon. Chair, we continued behaving in a manner which is making us a laughing stock.  My heart bleeds to imagine that we have the time to argue, wasting time yet people are suffering out there.  We have the responsibility in this House to be able to unite for the common goal of the ordinary person.

 I do not belong to any political party right now but I think it is important that we now look into a way of addressing this impasse.  The Chair of this House is the Speaker.  This House is becoming political every day.  There are issues where the Opposition does not recognise the

President and Hon. Minister Ziyambi was of the opinion that, ‘listen because you do not recognise the President, I will not respond to you’.

Equally the opposition belongs to a party where there is leadership and they are all told what to do.

 At the end of the day, we have a Constitution that we must follow in this country.  These political parties are a shame; this House cannot be a political ground to fight your differences.  Fight your differences out there, not in here.  This House must be respected and if you do not respect this House, I will stand alone and defend the interests of this country and tell you that this is not a political ground.  The elections came and went. As a result, we must be able to deliver to the people.  I expect maturity.  You might be insane and I am not insane.  There will be somebody who is required to stand up and speak on behalf of the people.  I am saying the politics finished after elections. When we are here, we must debate issues of national interest and follow the Constitution of this country.

Hon. Chair, it cannot be a political issue anymore.  It is important that the Speaker takes this matter seriously and address the impasse that exists in the political parties.  Without the Speaker and Parliament being involved, we shall not go anywhere at the end of the day.  At the same time, this Parliament is run by rules.  Hon. Chair, whenever I make noise you always tell me to get out.  I was watching to see how many people were making noise, Hon. Paradza was doing whatever he wanted, you did not send him out Hon. P. D. Sibanda was also doing what he wanted but when it is me, you tell me to go out and I go out.  Why is it that the same rules do not apply to other people out of order?  Is it because I am on my own or what?  We must be consistent in the application of the rules and laws in this Parliament.  We can equally join in many things but let me conclude by saying, it has been this Parliament.  We can equally join in many things but let me conclude by saying it has been a sad day. In fact I was actually going to propose that it was becoming a security issue. You cannot have the Hon Vice President having people around there, it is a security concern. When the people come here to protect him then we say that they have come in here. They must protect the Hon Vice President. When he is in this House he must feel safe but I do not think the prevailing environment made him feel safe. I was even going to propose that it is better for him to leave because the atmosphere in here is not conducive for the leadership of this country.

Finally we must be able to respect each other when we are here. This institution that we are failing to respect, if people are shouting at you outside you deserve to be shouted at because you behave like hooligans in here and you are not supposed to be hooligans – you are supposed to behave like people. I will mobilise the people of Zimbabwe to stand out there and attack you guys because you are a waste of time, taxpayers money and resources. You are as good as dead. Thank you very much.

HON. ZIYAMBI: Hon Mliswa, let us proceed. You have stated your point. The amendment that was proposed by Hon Sacco is already covered in the Bill. If you go to sub clause (o), it says the minister may appoint as many as he can. So, if there is need for a health desk it will be put there. It is already covered. I think we want to make the Bill so huge for nothing when the material facts are already there and they are covered. So I request that we proceed.

HON. PHULU: I do not understand why- if we do not agree on a particular point, we do not divide the House and vote on it and move on to the next point because we do not have to reason until we agree. We divide the House and vote. My point of order is how do we refuse to vote because there is a request that let us divide the House on the issue and then we move on.

The proposal here was that if we do not agree, let us vote and we still have not voted. It is unprocedural. If Members do not agree we must vote on the issue. As it is the record says I agree with that point. We move and I have voted for something which is counter devolution. We still have not voted.  How did the point pass before I got my right to vote on the Clause that is counter devolution. On Section 5. Ngativoteyi ka.

HON. T. MLISWA: On a point of order. Hon. Members must be familiar with Standing Rule 125 and I would urge them to open it now so that they understand the rules when it comes to the division of the House. Standing Rule 125 talks about Speaker or Chairperson decision challenged. “(1) If the opinion of the Chair, a decision of a question is challenged, he or she may direct that a division must take place. (2) If, however the Chair is of the opinion that a division is unnecessarily claimed or is an abuse of the rules  or a misuse of the forms of the House he or she must decline to direct that a division takes place and must immediately declare the resolution of the House or the Committee, as the case maybe. (3) When the Chair has directed that a division must take place, the division bells must be rung, and the doors must be secured soon after the lapse of the seven minutes as the Chair must direct, and no Member must thereafter enter or leave the Chamber until the division has been taken. (4) Whenever more than one division is required to bring to a decision any question already proposed from the Chair, on the first such division the division bells must be rung for seven minutes and on any subsequent division the division bell must be rung for three minutes. (5) A Member calling for a division must not leave the Chamber until after the division has taken place and must vote with those  who, in the opinion of the Speaker or the Chairperson were the minority; and every Member present in the Chamber when the question is put with the doors secured must be required to vote”.

Just in case you do not read Standing Rules, this is what regulates

Parliament. I put it before you Chair. I thank you.

THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON: I am entirely lost on the

request for the division of the House that was raised on Clause 4. What we are debating now is Clause 5. We cannot move forwards by going backwards. There is no division of the House. I have made a ruling.

HON. MADZIMURE: On a point of order. You were supposed to ask “those of that opinion” and you did not say so on Clause 4.  You did not say so. It is unprocedural.

THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON: I did.

       HON. MADZIMURE: I wanted to raise that point and you did

not. The records are there. You did not. It is unprocedural. The rules are clear.

    THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON: Do you want to leave the

House –[HON MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.]-

HON MUSHORIWA: The minister did not answer. He only answered the question of “O” where the Minister may in his discretion choose which agent to come. We believe from the Committee’s perspective that the Ministry of Health is a key player when it comes to investment. In addition to that we also believe strongly that on page 9 of the Bill subclause 4 on lines 3 to 5 should actually be deleted and be replaced by the amendment that we proposed. That person manning the desk referred above should be senior employees and officers.

We are not coming from point zero. We have had the Zimbabwe Investment Centre before coming to this ZIDA, when people in the export processing zone came here they raised a fundamental issue to simply say why did ZIA fail? ZIA failed specifically because of this issue where the Ministry was sending junior employees to go there. This is the reason why the Committee believes that senior employees should actually sit on that board so that there are people that are in a position to make decisions. In our view, we believe that needs to be factored in.

Again on the same page 9, we also propose that on subclause 9,  lines 24 and 27, be deleted and substituted with the following “that every person including every Minister and local authority whose duty is to consider requests by the agents for purposes of this Act, shall ensure priority is given to the consideration of every application made by the agenvy.” Why did we insist on this Chair? We insisted on this because we got representation from ZIA board that we are going to destroy when we come up with ZIDA.

         We received representation from the people in the EPZ. We received feedback from the people in the export processing zone and even the people in the joint venture under the Ministry of Finance also narrated this issue. So, it important that the Minister should actually consider a well thought out recommendation and amendments by the Committee. Thank you Chair.

        THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE, LEGAL AND

PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (HON. ZIYAMBI): Thank you Hon.

Chair. I have already stated my case and I move that we proceed accordingly.

HON. MUSHORIWA: We are back to square one.

        THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE, LEGAL AND

PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (HON. ZIYAMBI): We cannot

continue debating the same issue. Hon. Phuti was correct that we cannot continue debating the same issue. I have put my position and he has put his position...

            HON. MUSHORIWA: Have you answered what I have actually

on the debate? Chair, we are risking a situation – if the Minister wants to simply say that his word carries the day, it means there is no reason for us to debate. The reason for debating...

        THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE, LEGAL AND

PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (HON. ZIYAMBI): On a point of

order Hon. Chair. The procedure if there is a stalemate you rule and we proceed. We cannot continuously debate. So, I have already stated that that is the position that I have. Whatever debate we are doing, it is a debate that does not lead us anywhere.

HON. MUSHORIWA: In other words Chair, what the Minister is simply saying is that everything that we want to debate and say which is not in agreement with his views is of no consequence. What it means is that what we are doing in this House at this particular moment is that we are wasting our time. The Minister thinks it is his Parliament and believes that his position should save-carry the day –[HON.

MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections]-

        THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE, LEGAL AND

PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (HON. ZIYAMBI): Chair, you were

supposed to rule on what I said. If what I said was wrong you were supposed to rule on that rather than to allow him to continue whilst he debates. Rule on what I have said not to continuously allow him to debate. Chair, you must make a decision.

      THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON:  I make a ruling that we

proceed accordingly.

       HON. MUSHORIWA: I call for the division of the House. 

        [Bells rung]

House divide.

   AYES 26: Hon. Chihururu, C; Hon. Chikwinya S; Hon. Dube G;

Hon. Dube P; Hon. Gonese I.T; Hon. Houghton J.R; Hon. Karenyi L;

Hon. Mago N; Hon. Majaya B; Hon. Markham A. M; Hon. Masuku P; Hon. Mutewu C; Hon. Muchenje S. M; Hon. Mpariwa P; Hon. Mugidho M; Hon. Mukapiko D. L; Hon. Mushoriwa E; Hon. Ndlovu S; Hon.

Nyokanhere J; Hon Phulu K. L; Hon. Sithole J; Hon. Tekeshe D; Hon.

Toffa J; Hon. Tsunga J; Hon. Watson N. J;

       Tellers: Hon. N. Ndlovu and Hon. E. Mushoriwa.

         NOES 83:  Hon. Bushu B; Hon. Chadzamira R.E; Hon. Chibagu G; Hon. Chidakwa P; Hon. Chikukwa M.R; Hon. Chikuni E; Hon. Chikwama B; Hon. Chingosho C. P; Hon. Chinotimba J; Hon. Chitura L; Hon. Dzepasi G; Hon. Dzuma S; Hon. Gumbo J.M; Hon. Gwanongodza E; Hon. Chiduwa C; Hon. Mguni H; Hon. Kashiri C; Hon. Khumalo M; Hon. Khumalo S. S; Hon. Kwaramba G; Hon.

Maboyi R. M; Hon. Madhuku J; Hon. Madziva S; Hon. Makoni R. R;

Hon. Maronge C; Hon. Masango C. P; Hon. Masuku E; Hon. Matangira

  1. R; Hon. Mathe S; Hon. Matsikenyere N; Hon. Mavenyengwa R; Hon. Mguni S. K; Hon. Mhona F. T; Hon. Dube M; Hon. Mkandla M; Hon. Mliswa M. T; Hon. Moyo R; Hon. Moyo T; Hon. Mpofu A; Hon. Mpofu M. M; Hon. Mpofu R; Hon. Muchimwe P. T; Hon. Mudarikwa S; Hon.

Mudyiwa M; Hon. Munetsi J; Hon. Murambiwa O; Hon. Murire J; Hon.

Musiyiwa R; Hon. Mutambisi C; Hon. Ncube A; Hon. Ncube E; Hon.

Ncube E; Hon. Ndiweni D; Hon. Nguluvhe A; Hon. Mhambo F; Hon.

Nhari V; Hon. Nkani A; Hon. Nkomo M; Hon. Nyabani T; Hon.

Nyashanu M; Hon. Nyere C; Hon. Paradza J; Hon. Paradza K; Hon.

Raidza M; Hon. Rwodzi B; Hon. Samson A; Hon. Seremwe B; Hon.

Sewera J. N; Hon. Shirichena E; Hon. Shongedza E; Hon. Sibanda M; Hon. Sibanda Z; Hon. Singo L; Hon. Sithole G. K; Hon. Sithole S; Hon.

Svuure D; Hon. Tapera S; Hon. Taruvinga F; Hon. Tsuura N; Hon.

Tungamirai T; Hon. Zemura L; Hon. Zivhu K; Hon. Nyabote R.

       Tellers: Hon. Togarepi and Hon. Mutambisi

After announcement of the results of the division

HON. T. MLISWA: Handina kuvhota. What do the rules say? Hon. Chair, I did not vote so how come I was not announced? What does the law say? I object to the results because I did not vote, I abstained.

THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON: Hon. Mliswa! – [HON.

MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] –

HON. GONESE: I rise on a point of order Mr. Chairman. My point of order relates to the announcement of the results which you have just pronounced. I understand that an Hon. Member who was in this august House did not vote either yes or no. my point of clarification as the Hon. Member has raised the issue is that can the Chair please clarify for us why that was done.

THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON: That information I am not even aware. I cannot guess who voted and who did not – [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] – [HON. T. MLISWA: I was sitting here. I can demand a recount.] –

HON. GONESE: It is important Mr. Chairman, you must have indicated that someone did not vote or if they do not want to vote they should be told to leave the House.

THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON: I have already announced the

results of those who have voted, not those who did not vote – [HON.

GONESE: Those who did not vote also need to be announced.] – No, no

– [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] – I do not have that – [HON. T. MLISWA: Itondinyengererai, ndinozvidira jecha.] – [HON.

MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] –

THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON: Order in the House, Hon.

Members! –  On Clause 5;

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE, LEGAL AND

PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (HON. ZIYAMBI): Hon. Chair, I

have already proposed amendments to Clause 5, on page 9 that we delete on line 5 the following words, “for not less than 12 months at a time”. I thank you.

Amendment to Clause 5 put and agreed to.

        Clause 5, as amended, put and agreed to.

On New Clause 6:

HON. ZIYAMBI: Thank you Hon. Chair.  I propose to insert a new Clause 6 on page 9 of the Bill, insert the following Clause after line

31 and the subsequent clauses will be numbered accordingly –

“(6) Prioritisation of consideration by third party Agencies of certain applications, secondary to the granting of investment licences. It will read: “Every officer, organ or arm of the State and every Statutory Body and local authority whose duty is to consider any application for the grant of any permit, licence, permission, concession or other authorisation required in connection with any activity or the provision of service, shall ensure that as far as possible, priority is given to the consideration of any application thereof by an applicant, whose activity is permitted or approved in terms of an investment licence issued under this Act.  I so submit Hon. Chair.

New Clause 6 inserted put and agreed to.

On Clause 6 (New Clause 7):

HON. ZIYAMBI: Thank you Hon. Chair.  I propose the now

Clause 7 to be substituted as follows –

(a) On page 9 of the Bill, to delete Clause 6 between lines 32 and 37 and substitute the following Clause-

“(6) Zimbabwe Investment and Development Agency Advisory Board.  That there shall be an advisory board of the agency known as the ZIDA Advisory Board which has the following functions;

  1. a) On its own initiative or at the request of the CEO, to investigate and make recommendations to the CEO on any matter affecting investment facilitation, development, promotion and protection;
  2. To assist the CEO in the discharge of his/her functions in terms of Section 9 by making appropriate recommendations or giving appropriate advice to the CEO and;
  3. Making appropriate recommendations or giving appropriate advice on the formulation and implementation of strategies for the facilitation, development, promotion and protection of investments;
  • At the request of the President or the Minister as the case may be, to evaluate the performance by the CEO of his functions and responsibilities under this Act, when he/she is being considered for reappointment;
  • To consider any matter referred to it by the President or the

Minister;

  • To perform any other function assigned to it by or in terms of this Act;
  • The CEO is not bound by any recommendations made or advice given by the board in terms of sub-section 1(a) but at the request of the board, he/she shall in any annual or special report made in terms of Section 42 as directed by the board, make a report on the substance of any such recommendations or advice he/she

has chosen not to follow in whole or in part together with the reasons for not doing so.

        I so submit Hon. Chair.

         HON. T. MLISWA: Mr. Chair, I think it is important for Hon. Members of Parliament to realise that we are always giving powers to the ministers as Parliament.  There is nothing that talks about a Parliamentary Report to Parliament, there is nothing that talks about the board coming through Parliament.  For as long as boards do not come through Parliament, we will always have problems.  What is important is that, if it is the Office of the President and Cabinet that is running ZIDA, they must send recommendations of board members to Parliament and then Parliament approves and it goes to the President.  That is how it should work.

Ministers are being reshuffled and being fired and what we see is that each Minister that comes in comes in with his own board.  We have to follow the South African Parliament model that no board member of any parastatal goes to sit before Parliament does that.  Hon. Members, I am reminding you, we are the ones who put the laws. Instead of Parliament playing the oversight role, we must also have oversight over board members who are painted.  The CEO must also come through us, but the President has the final say.  Why are we continuously giving powers to the ministers and they are reshuffled.  It is about time we wake up and smell the coffee and start changing these things now.  We have seen boards changing left, right and centre when ministers come.  Where are we in our role of oversight?  Why are we not bringing board members before us from the Office of the President and Cabinet, they come through us and then the President has a final say.

So I am saying there must be a Clause moving forward in any Act that empowers Parliament to be able to have oversight of all board members and then the President has the final say.  The Chief Executive Officer is of a parastatal, we are responsible for oversight over parastatals.  Why are we sitting here not saying the CEO must come through us?  We are now complaining about the Executive Chairman of ZESA, it is because we are allowing ministers to have so much power.

If we had the power to appoint CEOs or boards, there would not be an

Executive Chairman of ZESA who has a rotten past but because the

Minister has got power, he does that.  We cannot allow that to happen.  It is about time we wake up and you support me for us being empowered to move this country forward.  This institution is for the people and not for individuals, let us empower ourselves, wake up and smell the coffee.  That is my contribution.

HON. ZIYAMBI: Thank you Hon. Chair.  In terms of reporting to Parliament, there is a Clause that we will come to.  Clause 42 makes provision for those reports to come.  So, I believe the Hon. Member should have waited for that Clause and we debate on it.  The office of the Minister is not an individual office - so the issue of reshuffling does not arise, it has no bearing.  In fact, in all the Acts, you refer to the Minister who is assigned that particular Act.  So it is standard.  You cannot have an Act that does not have a Minister who administers it.  It refers to the office of that particular line Minister who is assigned that particular Act.  So in terms ...

HON. T. MLISWA:  On a point of order.  The Minister must realise that we make the laws here and the Minister is defending the position when he is a Minister but we make laws here.  Ministers do not make laws.  We make laws and they comply with the laws.  To us we are saying that the Minister must not appoint the board.  The board must be recommended to Parliament then Parliament, after it has vetted that, it goes to the President.  That is what we want.  To me, the Minister cannot say that it is because it is the way things are done.  We are allowed to change the law and what I am saying is the word Minister must be removed from the Act and Parliament must come in.  That is how we make laws.  We change them like that.

HON. ZIYAMBI:  Thank you very much Mr. Chairman.  Mr. Chairman, if you notice, we believe we are at a stage where we need to vigorously promote investment in the country.  So at this particular juncture, we decided that we should have an advisory board.  I agree with him in terms of other boards, what he is asserting but for this board, it is not desirable for it to be subjected to that process because it is an advisory board.  We are envisaging a board that will advise the CEO who reports to the President.  We want this board as of now to be an agency in the Office of the President because we want to ensure that it is given the priority and the urgency that it deserves in so far as it takes seriously our agenda of investment into the country.  I agree with him but for this particular Bill, we couched it in such a manner that it may not be desirable to have an advisory board being subjected to the parliamentary process.  If you want to consider the reporting structure, it is there.  We will come to the Clause.  Clause 42 talks about the reports that have to be submitted to Parliament.  I thank you.

HON. T. MLISWA:  We are very clear that the investment which is not coming to this country is a result of Ministers being corrupt.

Today I am going to speak the truth and Hon. Ziyambi and Minister Hon. Ziyambi you will be with me here.  The reason is that Ministers are given money in their pockets because there is not much scrutiny and nothing happens.  The mere fact that Parliament is in charge, people have confidence because it is people’s Parliament.  We do not go for individuals.  You see how these Committees are run.  Despite different political parties but we are able to conduct our duties professionally.  Why have the word advisory board?  Any board by its nature is advisory.  So why have a nice word like advisory.  If that is the case, we must understand the role of the advisory board and the role of any other board then we can see how special it is because investment is not coming into the country because Ministers are being corrupt.  The only way to curb that corruption is to have a multifaceted approach.  You cannot doubt Parliament anywhere in the world.  We might differ here but our interests are for the nation.  We are voted in by the people to push the agenda here.  The Minister is on his own.  Why are the ministers so much wanting to clamour to have power?

This country has suffered because of corruption.  Investment is not coming in because it is said that the Ministers have all the authority to do that.  Let us look at indigenisation, when the Minister responsible is the sole custodian of indigenisation, many companies were given individually to people instead of it being a broad based approach.  How many communities were empowered through indigenisation but there were companies which were given that power because the Minister had the power.  It is about time we curtail the powers of the Ministers and this must start now not tomorrow; otherwise we will keep on having corruption, sitting here wasting taxpayers’ money.  People have confidence in us.  That is why they vote for us to be here.  In fact some countries do not allow a Member of Parliament to be a Minister because the Member of Parliament has oversight over a Minister.  In Nigeria, for example, all Ministers in Cabinet are not Members of Parliament because Parliament watches over them.  Why are we not also following that?  Why are we not also following that trend?

Hon. Ziyambi knows what I am talking about at the end of the day and he must support this in the new dispensation which His Excellency is pushing for at the end of the day.  Zero tolerance to corruption means more eyes watching those who steal and take the pie from them and allowing Parliament to do our job.  May God hear my prayer today while those who are quiet, may ministers’ powers be curtailed from today.  Ndakuma chero kana mukasaombera.

HON. TOGAREPI:  On a point of order.  Mr. Chairman, I think what the Hon. Member is debating now is not relevant to this Clause.  My view is his views are very important.  They can come maybe as an amendment to the Constitution or as a motion.  He can bring those forward but at the moment, let us proceed.

HON. T. MLISWA:  This is an Act of Parliament which comes through us.  It is not a constitutional motion.  I am debating nenyaya yeAct yatiri kutaura munomu.  Kana ukati handigone kudebheta Act, ndochienda hangu.  We are debating an Act nezvatinoda muAct.  Ini ndiri kutaura zvatinoda muAct not kuti mangwana Act yozopfuura tozoti mangwana takapotsa.  Ngazvitange nhasi kuti zvinhu zvitange kuchinja.  Saka iAct yandiri kudhibheta on Constitution.  It is about time we nip it in the bud.  Taneta nemaMinisters anongouya achiba.  Taneta nazvo

izvi.

HON. ZIYAMBI:  Thank you Mr. Chair.  In our constitutional democracy, we have three arms of the State.  We have the Executive, Parliament and Judiciary.  The Executive cannot abrogate its responsibility to Parliament.  If we have weak institutions, we deal with that but we do not abrogate to an organ that is not vested with that particular power.  As regards an advisory board and an actual board, they are very different.  An advisory is advisory in nature and a board that is not advisory has power to make certain decisions.  What we are saying is as of now, because of the urgency and the need to be aggressive in promoting investment, the ZIDA Agency will be housed in the Office of the President.  That way, we believe that we will also be able to deal with some of the corruption that has been happening because the President will have direct oversight on it but in legislative drafting, you indicate either the President or the Minister in the Bill.  If you go into this Bill, it says either the President will assign this Bill to himself or whoever the Minister is.  It is standard but if you look at the way it is, we had designed it in such a manner that as of now, maybe progressively going forward, we may amend it so that it will suite the necessities or the needs of the time at that particular time.  So I propose that we move forward on this point.  His argument is well taken but that is my submission Mr. Chair. 

    HON.  T. MLISWA:  Mr. Chair, I am contributing, if you do not

have the intellectual capacity or the gift to talk it is not my fault – pray to God, you must understand that.

         Mr. Chair, I know my rights and the reason I am saying this is because the Hon. Minister is very correct in saying that there are three pillars of the State - the Judiciary which is independent; the Executive which is independent and Parliament which makes the laws that you ministers follow.  So why are you now trying to make the ministers more powerful than this institution?  This is the problem we have had in this country because when ministers come here, they think that they are more powerful than us and we know it all.

         We are meant to have oversight and representation.  What does oversight mean?  It is oversight over the Executive, so that they report to us.  So the laws that we are pushing are the laws that we think are better for us moving forward.  So at no point should ministers think that they are more superior to Parliament – we must understand that.  There are many Sections in the Constitution that I can quote that give us the powers – that is the reason why the President, in Section 116 of the Constitution, is part of this Parliament.  It is because he comes and reads things sitting there and the Executive then goes and implements.

         So Mr. Chairman Sir, the issue of the Advisory Board – it is important for the Minister, moving forward in that Act, to tell us the role of the Advisory Board because we do not know what the Advisory Board will do.  We do not know what powers they have.  So if he can point to us the role of the Advisory Board, then we would understand that it is superior from any other board – that I do not see.  I do not know if you can direct us to that and to me, he was right to say that because of corruption this will be under the President.

         So if the President is responsible for it, why does he need a minister?  The Office of the President and Cabinet is broken anyway it does nothing and that is where all the money is going yet it is doing nothing.  This will be under the Office of the President and Cabinet in monitoring this but they have been monitoring many things that have gone astray.  Hon. Members, how many things are under the Office of the President and Cabinet zvafa?  It is a bunch of bureaucrats who are saboteurs to the current President and I will say it.  The reason why this country is not moving forward is because of the bureaucrats sitting in that Office of the President and Cabinet busy patronizing and not working for this country.  It is about time they leave. We cannot give anymore work because they have sold.  They are saboteurs to the President E. D. Mnangagwa – they are from the old school and old regime.  They continue with their policies dzekuda kuita zvinhu zvisina basa, they must go and rest kuma farms kwavo kwavakapihwa, what are they still doing being in office since 1980?

         This country is not moving forward because of those bureaucrats and why are we giving them a lot of work Hon. Ziyambi Ziyambi?  Yes, ngava zorore, iretirement village iya – Ambassador aretire arikuuya, uyu aretire Permanent Secretary ariko.  So it is a retirement village and not a workhorse.  The President must understand that we are supporting him through this Parliament moving forward. – [HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.] –

         HON. ZIYAMBI:  Hon. Chair, when I rose to propose the amendments, I clearly read out what the Advisory Board will be doing and I hear Hon. Mliswa.  In my previous submission I said, ‘The

Executive cannot abrogate its function’.    Clearly what he is proposing violates the separation of powers principle.  The boards are appointed by the Executive – he should not confuse and conflate Constitutional Independent Commission appointments with boards that fall under the purview of the Executive.

So in saying that the boards must come through Parliament – it violates our constitutional provisions, which is the reason why perhaps

Hon. Togarepi was saying, ‘His points are correct and if he wants us to amend the Constitution, he is very right.  We are the law makers and we can do that but as of now, we are following what the Constitution says.

So, I propose Hon. Chair that we cannot debate forever.  We are going in circles – can we then now proceed?  I thank you.  - [HON. MEMBERS:

Inaudible interjections.] - Hon. Mliswa shouting at some Hon. Members.

              THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON:  Order, order, Hon. Mliswa!

Hon. Mliswa!

      HON. CHIKWINYA:  Thank you Hon. Chair, allow me to

submit my contributions as such with regards to the proposed amendments on Clause 6, which effectively takes out Clauses 8 and 9 as was stated in the Bill.

         Hon. Chair, the concern by Hon. Members is that year in and year out – the Minister of Finance and Economic Development comes to seek condonation over funds that would have been given to parastatals – where parastatals would have performed badly and are in debt.  This Bill does not give Parliament the relevant interface between Parliament and the respective leadership of those parastatals.  So you are rendering Parliament a rubber stamp where we begin to condone funds that have been used but at the detriment of those parastatals when they are running at a loss, yet we have no direct interface or leadership of that parastatal.

         An example has been given of other jurisdictions – South Africa for example where Parliament has direct interface …

     THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON:  Order, order, sorry Hon.

Chikwinya, are you debating Clause 6?  You seem to be debating Clause

7.

              HON. CHIKWINYA:  Clause 6 about the Board – the proposal is

to repeal Clause 6 in the Bill and amend it with the now Clause 6 as stated.  Clause 6 seeks to establish the Board of the agency.

         I am motivating that Parliament should be given the correct interface to relate to the leadership of such parastatals like this agency that we are trying to setup.  I clearly understand the importance of this agency as stated by the Hon. Minister that Zimbabwe now seeks to have investors and the President has taken so much interest that he wants to make sure that there is enough sanity with regards to making sure that there is ‘Ease of Doing Business’.      Parliament comes at a stage whereby we need to oversee because these are public funds that are in use.

         I will refer to other boards, under parastatal boards because this is also a parastatal to the extent that we have seen these parastatals being mismanaged and recording losses and the Minister of Finance and Economic Development coming to Parliament to seek condonation.  We are failing to give that vehicle where Parliament and the leadership of these boards can interface.  This is the call whereby, what are we then supposed to put in this particular Bill which then gives Parliament the right to be able to interface with the leadership of these parastatals and in this case the board?

  HON. CHIKWINYA:  I understand the Hon. Minister’s point that

this is only an advisory board but if you look at its functions it is a board like any other parastatal board.  It has been regarded as an advisory board because it has got a direct corerelation with the President.  The

President cannot operate the board because the President operates the Cabinet but because the President has got a direct interest in this particular parastatal he wants to have more interface with it.  Therefore, he is calling it an advisory board but literally it is a board.  This is where we are saying as Parliament, we now need to have a mechanism of having an interface with these boards.  What I would have wanted to hear from you is a commitment that you are going to have a look at the State Enterprise and Corporate Act where the majority of the powers of these boards are actually vested in.  Therefore, we begin to have an engagement over how Parliament can have an interface with these boards.

         Hon. Chair, the majority of the Members here present, we suffer because there is no parastatal which is recording even breaking even but as Parliament we are giving them money year in and year out and this is where we are saying we now need to create a vehicle where we interface with the leadership of these parastatals.  Therefore the call is, can you hear us Hon. Minister.

       HON. MOLOKELA-TSIYE:  I rise in support of Hon.

Chikwinya.  I think this Parliament must be responsible to the people of Zimbabwe.  Our State owned enterprises and parastatals, every one of them is always loss making annually and they get bail out from the fiscus.  If we are a Parliament that is accountable to the people of Zimbabwe, we need to make sure that when you are electing a new law, we learn from previous experiences.  This is the responsibility of Parliament to ensure that it has an oversight role so that it protects our national resources.  It is the responsibility of Cabinet and the President to make sure that the new laws that we enact as Parliament, support them in making sure that the boards that are appointed play their role.

Almost every major parastatal in this country is making losses.

         So, I think the Minister should reconsider his position.  If you go to South Africa, look at how the boards are appointed.  State owned enterprises are not as bad as those in Zimbabwe.  There are some who are as bad as those in Zimbabwe but there have been some mechanisms that have been put in place to ensure that Parliament plays its role in terms of oversight role.  You cannot talk about Zimbabwe being serious for open business, being serious about Zimbabwe fighting against corruption when we are electing new laws that repeat the same old mistakes.  So the Minister should reconsider his position.  Thank you.        *HON. CHINOTIMBA: On a point of order Hon. Chair.

Personally, I am not happy when MPs are called witches.  As we are here, we are live on television, radio et cetera. For MPs to be referred as witches and we just keep quiet it is not fair.  Hon. Mliswa is my friend, he is my younger brother but I cannot be happy when an Hon. Member is said to be engaged in witchcraft.  Tomorrow someone can say that and you expel them from the House.  Recently, we chased away another Hon. Member because of the bad behaviour but we are here leaving one

MP in this House after calling MPs witches.  Hon. Chair, the Hon.

Member should withdraw that statement – [HON. T. MLISWA:  Usandichichidzire! Kupfeka chi hat che land invasion hakusi kuenda ku hondo, hapana hondo yawakaenda iwewe.  Tibvire, taakukuudza chokwadi.  Waida kuita Minister of War Veterans ikapiwa Mr. Tshinga. Dube, Hwee!...

         THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON:  Order, order, Hon. Mliswa – [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections] – [HON. T. MLISWA:  Uri ani iwewe, ndebvu chena] –

        THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE LEGAL AND

PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (HON. ZIYAMBI):  I took my time

to read the new clause – [HON. T. MLISWA:  Inaudible intejection] ….

        THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON:  Hon. Mliswa,

ndaakuzokuburitsa manje.

                HON. ZIYAMBI:  I submit that we proceed because everything

that has been said, I read about them.

       Amendment to Clause 6 put and agreed to.

        Clause 6, as amended, put and agreed to.

        On Clause 7.

         HON. K. PARADZA:  I move the motion standing in my name

that,

1) There shall be a board to be known as the Zimbabwe Investment and Development Agency Board which shall consist of-

  1. the Chairperson appointed by the President after consultation with the Committee on Standing Rules and Orders;
  2. Eight other members appointed by the President from a list of not fewer than twelve nominees submitted by the Committee on Standing Rules and Orders.

2)  In appointing the eight members referred to in subsection (1) (b)-

  1. five shall be chosen from the private sector;
  2. three shall be chosen from the public sector at director level and above in line with the Public Entities and Corporate Governance Act.
    • The Chief Executive Officer shall be an ex officio member of the board and the Secretary to the board.
    • In appointing the board members, the President shall have regard for the provisions of Sections 17 and 18 of the Constitution.
    • The board shall, at its first meeting, elect a Vice-Chairperson of the board from among its members:

         Provided that the Chairperson and Vice-Chairperson shall be different genders.

        THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE LEGAL AND

PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (HON. ZIYAMBI):  Hon. Chair, my

proposal is that it can stand as it is.

   HON. CHIKWINYA: I am referring to amendment in Clause 6

whilst bringing in Clause 7. Functions of Boards in Clause 6 it must make recommendations and investigate. What if they do not agree?

      THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON: We have already passed

Clause 6. Can you refer to Clause 7 please?

         HON. CHIKWINYA: Clause 7 establishes a board that has got eight members and the Hon Minister says because it is an advisory board, it does not have to vote. But if you look at its functions as enshrined in Clause 6, it investigates and makes recommendations and what if they do not agree. How do they carry forward their recommendation to the President? This is why I am saying it must have an uneven number or else the chairperson must have a casting vote. It is simply a housekeeping issue on the board itself.

  HON. ZIYAMBI: I have already submitted that it can stand as is.

        Clause 7 put and agreed to.

        On Clause 8:

        THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE, LEGAL AND

PALIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (HON. ZIYAMBI): On Clauses 8 and

9, they become Clauses 9 and 10 substituted by the following; On pages 10 to 11 of the Bill, I am proposing that we delete Clauses 8 and 9 and substitute the following Clauses, 9 Chief Executive Officer and staff of agency. There shall be a Chief Executive Officer of the Agency who shall be appointed by the President at his own authority if the President is responsible for administering this Act or after consultation with the Minister responsible for administering this Act.

  • the Chief Executive Officer shall hold office for such period not exceeding three years and on such terms and conditions of service as the President or Minister as the case may be, shall fix on his or her appointment and shall be eligible for reappointment subject to satisfactory valuation of performance referred to in Section 6 (1) (b) for the same period as the period for which he or she was originally appointed and on the same or on different terms and conditions of service.
  • the following provisions of the Second Schedule relating to the appointment of members of the board, their vacation of office, disqualification from appointment, dismissal and refilling of their vacancies shall also apply to the CEO.

         Paragraphs 2, 3 and 4 (1) subject to the reference in sub paragraph (b) to paragraph (1) (2) of the Second Schedule be construed as a reference to sub section (2) of this Section 3 and 5.

  • the CEO shall on behalf and in the name of the agency employ upon such terms and conditions as he or she may think fit, whether as permanent employees or on pensionable conditions of service or on contract or otherwise, such staff as unnecessary for conducting the agency’s affairs.
  • assign and promote members of staff to offices, posts and grades in agency and fix their conditions of service.
  • supervise and control the activities of the staff of the agency in the course of their employment.
  • discipline, suspend or discharge any such staff.

         (5) the staff of the agency shall carry out their functions under the direction and control of the CEO.

Amendment to Clause 8 put and agreed to.

Clause 8, as amended, put and agreed to.

On Clause 9:

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE, LEGAL AND

PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIR (HON. ZIYAMBI): Because we have

adopted Clause 9, I indicated that I am proposing that it be repealed and substituted by what I have indicated. His proposed amendment has been superseded by what we have adopted. I thank you.

Amendment to Clause 9 put and agreed to.

Clause 9, as amended, put and agreed to.

Clause 10 put and agreed to.

On Clause 11:

HON. CHIKWINYA: Clause 11 is about freedom of investment and it refers to First Schedule of the Indigenisation and Economic Empowerment Act [Chapter 14:13]. In my view, this Act has been repealed. How do we refer to it?

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE, LEGAL AND

PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (HON ZIYAMBI): It is not.

Clause 11 put and agreed to.

Clauses 12 and 13 put and agreed to.

On Clause 14:

        THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE, LEGAL AND

PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (HON. ZIYAMBI): On page 12 of

the Bill, delete the following words from line 35 and ending on line 40,

“Provided that there is no person domiciled within Zimbabwe with the same qualifications, skills and knowledge as they are required of their senior manager, technical and operational experts or advisor with respect to the investment in question”. So I am proposing that we delete that.

       Amendment to Clause 14 put and agreed to.

       Clause 14, as amended, put and agreed to.

       Clauses 15 to Clause 19 put and agreed to.

        On Clause 20:

   HON. CHIKWINYA: Thank you Hon. Chair. On Clause 20,

social responsibility of the investor and the Hon. Minister may advise if my interpretation is wrong that with regards to the diamond and the platinum sector, the laws are compulsory with regards to corporate social responsibility, but are voluntary with regards to investment in any other mineral. I thought that Clause 20 gives us an opportunity to be able to direct our investors as to how we intend to have them perform corporate social responsibilities within our communities.

         As we speak Hon. Chair and in the event of voluntary corporate social responsibility, we leave our communities exposed, yet we seek this investment for it to be able to benefit our communities. There is currently a discourse going on within our communities whereby investors are not willing to participate in corporate social responsibilities in our communities because we do not have a compulsory law that tells them to do so.

         Therefore, the issue of social licence is breaking down resulting in both the communities engaging in illegal activities, which is consequently going to affect the investors. I therefore seek that the Hon. Minister inserts a clause that directs investors to be able to channel a particular resource or amount of resource towards community social responsibility. I will give an example Hon. Chair - the Mines and Mineral Development Committee visited Mimosa. They dedicate 3% of their gross revenue towards corporate social responsibility and I believe that is the direction which you need to take.

         Therefore, I propose that a particular clause which shows the investor how he has to relate with the communities be inserted under Clause 20, otherwise we would have lost the opportunity. As it stands, currently only subsection (a) and subsection (d) speak to social responsibility. Otherwise subsection (b) and (c) have nothing to do with social responsibility.

         The issues to do with how to relate the environment are only covered in Section A, but our communities when they see an investor, expect so much direct corporate social responsibility rather than the same coming through taxes. I propose that this clause be given that opportunity Hon. Minister.

        THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE, LEGAL AND

PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (HON. ZIYAMBI): Hon. Chair, I am

proposing to the heading to change to responsibility of the investor.

               HON. CHIKWINYA: Hon. Chair, the Hon. Minister proposed

that we remove social responsibility and leave only responsibility on the investor but Hon. Chair, the expectation of our people in our communities is that an investor should be able to deal directly in terms of corporate social responsibility between the investor and the community and they are now taking away the responsibility of the investor from being responsible to the community We are doing nothing Hon. Minister by deleting social. What our communities are saying is that if an investor comes into a particular community and our Constitution supports that natural resources must benefit the local community – I do not see your amendment fitting in that constitutional provision. You were correct that there must be social responsibility but let us have the wording and the text that directs how the investor should actually relate to those communities and you are running away from the very correct position that should be undertaken. So, I disagree with the Minister in terms of removing social responsibility.

        THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE, LEGAL AND

PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (HON. ZIYAMBI): Thank you Hon.

Chair, can we proceed by the proposal to remove social and having responsibility of the investor. It will speak to what is there. I thank you.

       Amendment to Clause 20 put and agreed to.

       Clause 20, as amended, put and agreed to.

        On Clause 21:

    HON. K. PARADZA: Thank you Chairman. On Clause 21, I want

to stress on the point that we need a timeframe of three days to approve or refuse an application and also the timeframe of 14 days for an aggrieved person to make an appeal, and also for the board to confirm or refuse within a reasonable time as captured in my amendment. Thank you.

        THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE, LEGAL AND

PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (HON. ZIYAMBI): Thank you Hon.

Chair. Consistent with what we have been doing – we have changed the board to become advisory and we have now the Chief CEO being the main operating officer, I propose Clause 21 which now becomes our new Clause 22 and is amended as follows; on page 15 of the Bill., delete sub clause 4 on lines 39 and 40 and substitute – 4, “the Chief Executive Officer may (a) at his or her discretion refer any application for an investment licence to the board for its advise or recommendation thereon.  (b) Impose such conditions on the issuance of an investment licence as he or she considers fit whether or not on the basis of any advice or recommendation tendered by the board in terms of paragraph (a).” I submit Hon. Chair – [HON. K. PARADZA: Ngatiise time frame.] - Hon. Chair, I believe we will address it in regulations.

         HON. K. PARADZA: But we will not have solved anything without a timeline – [HON. MEMBER: Inaudible interjections.]-

        THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE, LEGAL AND

PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (HON. ZIYAMBI): The reason why

I said we put it in regulation is where they went to learn about the experiences of other countries they did not start with three days.  We are saying when we start we do not want to have a false start.  So, we put regulations that will allow us to have a smooth take off.  If we start by fixing it at 3 days, we will have a still birth.  So, the reason why we are saying that is it is very easy to change regulations – [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] – So, I propose that we remain silent in the Act but in regulations we will do that, so that is how we are going to do it.

       HON. CHINYANGANYA: Mr. Chair, we need to have

atimeframe, the reason why things are not moving in this country is because there is no time limit.

        Clause 22 put and agreed to.

        Clause 22 as amended put and agreed to.

        On Clause 23;

       HON. K. PARADZA:  Mr. Chair, I move the amendment

standing in my name that on page 16 insert the following sub-clause after line 12-

         (2) The Agency may also issue an indefinite licence upon the investor meeting set criteria by the Agency, and paying any fee, if any, as may be prescribed.”  The preceding sub-clause will accordingly be numbered (1).

         THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE, LEGAL AND

PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (HON. ZIYAMBI): Thank you Hon.

Chair, I am not proposing any amendment to this, it is a very dangerous proposition, I think renewing a licence will keep those investors on their toes.

        Clause 23 put and agreed to.

        Clause 24 put and agreed to.

        On Clause 25:

          HON. K. PARADZA: Mr. Chair, I move the amendment standing

in my name that on page 16 insert the following sub-clause after line 33-

         (3) Every licensed investor shall submit to the Agency at such intervals as the Agency may direct such statistical data and such information and returns as respects his or her sales and purchases and other operations as the Authority may require.

       I hope the Minister will shoot it down so we scrap it.

        Clause 25 put and agreed to.

        Clauses 26 to 29 put and agreed to.

        On Clause 30:

        THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE, LEGAL AND

PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (HON. ZIYAMBI):  Hon. Chair, I

just propose a small amendment on page 17 of the Bill by deleting subClause 1 in line 44, we delete the words, ‘the area of which ‘, then substitute, ‘ the geographical area of which’.

       Amendment to Clause 30 put and agreed to.

       Clause 30, as amended, put and agreed to.

        Clauses 31 to 41 put and agreed to.

        On Clause 42:

     HON. K. PARADZA on behalf of HON. SACCO: On page 21,

insert “within sixty (60) days” after “shall” on line 34.

        THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE, LEGAL AND

PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (HON. ZIYAMBI): I am proposing a

slightly different amendment to what Hon. Paradza is proposing on Clause 42.

         I propose that on page 21 of the Bill, we delete “Clause 42” and substitute with the following, “reports of the CEO”.

  • The CEO shall, as soon as possible after the end of each financial year, submit an annual report on the operations of the agency to the Minister.
  • In addition to the report referred to in sub-section 1, the CEO shall submit to the Minister any report and provide him or her with any other information that the Minister may require in regard to the operation of the agency and b) may submit to the Minister any other report that the CEO considers desirable.
  • The Minister shall table before parliament, every annual report submitted to him or her by the CEO in terms of sub-section 1 and b) may table before Parliament any report submitted to him or her by the CEO in terms of sub-section 2.

         HON. TSUNGA:  Just one point of clarification.  I think it is fine that the CEO must submit a report to the Minister who in turn will table the report to Parliament but, my point of clarification relates to the role of the Board in this whole exercise; whether the Board has a role in the production or compilation of the report and if the Board is going to endorse that report prior to submission to the Minister because it looks like the Board is sidelined outright in this whole process.

  HON. ZIYAMBI: Hon. Chair, I move that you report progress

and seek leave to sit again tomorrow.  Let us finish Clause 44.

         HON. CHIKWINYA:  I am on Clause 42.  You were consulting each other; you did not give Hon. Members an opportunity because he had moved that we are sitting tomorrow.  So, there was no way I could

rise up.

         On Clause 42, the Clause suggests that the CEO reports annually and my argument is, why can they not report quarterly so that at least we track the performance of these parastatals? Why should we come at the end of the year and discover that a parastatal is not functioning well and then they begin to seek condonation of funds from the fiscus after the harm has been done?  Why can they not report quarterly like any other provisions of the Public Finance Management System?  So, I propose quarterly so that at least we can track them and then correct where necessary.

              Hon. Members having suggested that Committee Stage proceeds.

        HON. ZIYAMBI: Let us proceed; Hon. Chair.

        Clauses 43 and 44 put and agreed to.

        On Clause 45, now New Clause 46

           HON CHIKWINYA:  On a point of order.  How can we pass....

         HON. ZIYAMBI:  Thank you Hon. Chair.  I move that you report progress and seek leave that we sit again tomorrow.

         HON. PHULU:  That leave was already sought and granted.  It cannot be sought again. The leave was already sought and granted so we

are still on 42.

         HON. CHIKWINYA:  You need to answer me.  Why are you denying important reports? – [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible

interjections.] –

       It being Five Minutes to Seven o’clock p.m. the Deputy

Chairperson left the Chair to report progress and ask leave to sit again.

House resumed.

                 Progress reported.

                  Committee Stage to resume:  Wednesday, 27th November, 2019.

In terms of Standing Order Number 51 (1) (a) THE HON. DEPUTY SPEAKER adjourned the House at Five Minutes to Seven

o’clock p.m.

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