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Thursday, 1st December, 2016

The Senate met at Half-past Two o’clock p.m.





HON. SEN. CHIEF CHARUMBIRA:  I move that Questions

Without Notice and Questions With Notice be stood over until the rest of the Orders of the Day have been disposed of.

HON. SEN. MARAVA: I second.

Motion put and agreed to.




First Order read:  Adjourned debate on motion on the Report of the delegation to the 68th Session of the Executive Committee of the African Parliamentary Union.

Question again proposed.

HON. SEN. KHUMALO: I did not travel but I would appreciate the motion by Sen. Goto, seconded by our Chief Hon. Sen. Dandawa.  There are certain sections which were presented which I found very interesting and I thought even though I did not go, they will be useful if we discussed them as they are affecting Zimbabwe.

I was interested in the issue of culture, peace and security and good governance. What I thought was interesting was that OAU or AU was emphasising to its members that they should work well within their specific countries particularly so that there is peace and security.  I am bringing it a little bit on the fact that I think as Zimbabweans generally, we are peace lovers.  There are certain times when I look at the situations of what is going on in Zimbabwe on the issue of peace and security.  In the media, we have been watching these past days young people sometimes being clapped by our security forces who are supposed to be protecting us.  I thought that that is not encouraging peace and security because it is encouraging our young people not to respect our security which we are supposed to respect.  Even a parent – if a parent is always clapping the children, children will do naughty things because they are tired of being beaten always …

HON. SEN. CHIPANGA: On a point of order Madam President. You will guide me, I thought this is not the motion we are discussing.  I thank you


Senator.  I thought she actually gave a preview to her debate.  It is based on that preview that I let her go on to what she is debating.  Of course, I do take note of the fact that Hon. Senator, you are almost introducing a new subject here.  Please do not stray from the motion.  I think you need to keep it relevant to the motion.

HON. SEN. KHUMALO: In their discussions, they said they are encouraging  African countries to have peace and security.  So, police and the army are our guardians for our peace and security, although peace and security can be caused by other issues.  Sometimes, peace and security can be affected by our cultural activities.  Within their discussions, they brought in the issues of good governance which means people have freedom of saying what they think is right.  In the Constitution, it is said human rights; freedom of speech.   In our situation, freedom of speech is not quite understood what it is.  Sometimes when demonstrating on the issues which we think affect us so that it is understood by those in leadership or those who are ruling; we are only saying this is not what we want.  I do not think the youths will be fighting their Government, but just informing them of what they are not interested in so that their Government can think about it.  That is part of peace and security.

We have also seen within the issue of freedom of speech, let those who have done wrong be taken to the courts and not be embarrassed by being beaten in the streets.  The courts are there to do the judgement so that people are not embarrassed in the streets.  Embarrassment is a bad thing and it is not a human right.  Their human rights are violated when they are beaten in public.  Nobody should be beaten, people should go to courts and judged on the wrong things they would have done.  I was also interested on the issue that when we are doing good governance, peace and security, the youths are left to do what is right.

Secondly, I am on the cultural issues which you brought in which were discussed there and I thought it is wonderful.  Culture can be easily done, easily expressed, I think through devolution.  If there is no devolution, no one can think of what we can do in Matabeleland or Masvingo which fits us as a cultural development thing.  People in the areas should be able to come up with what they think is their cultural development.  For example, in Matabeleland, they have lost their culture because they have been forced to leave induku.  A man was not a man when he moved like a woman.  Today, men in Matabeleland move like women.  They are not allowed to carry their knobkerries.  That is their culture, why can they not keep it?  Culture has to be upheld.

We are coming up with a new issue that education is going to be done in our mother language.  Is it truly going to be done culturally or we are going to have someone’s language being used against our children to learn the science technology?  As long as we are not hiring teachers in Matabeleland or in Masvingo who can speak that language, those children are not going to learn their culture because that teacher does not know the depth of that language.  The OAU said linguistic is part of culture.  Can we have that linguistic allowed in different areas so that our cultural development can go forward because it is lagging behind in other provinces.  The students from early childhood development to Grade 6 should be taught in their language by the teachers who can speak those languages so that they can express and give the children the expressions which are in their language.  That is one of the important things I have on the issue of culture.

Peace and security is how things work.  If we look at the parastatals, at the present moment, the majority of their heads are from one section.  Can all the provinces be covered because all of our children have gone to school and they also want to be in charge.  They cannot always be under supervision by other children.  I experienced that and it is not right.  Sometimes you are given a person who is not qualified as you are but because he belongs to a ruling culture, that is recognised to be your boss when he does not know anything.  That is not fair.  Can we have distribution of power so that people in other provinces can participate.

Finally, I would like to say, culture is our resource.  People say zviwanikwa zvemunzvimbo iyoyo are supposed to benefit those living there.  The resources in an area must benefit the local people properly.

Thank you.


expressing your opinion on this motion and some of the topics that came up at that particular conference.

Ministers are nowhere to be found, we went out looking for them but we have not succeeded yet.

HON. SEN. CHIEF CHARUMBIRA:  I move that the debate do now adjourn.

HON. SEN. TAWENGWA:  I second.

Motion put and agreed to.

Debate to resume:  Tuesday, 6th December, 2016.





Second Order read:  Adjourned debate on motion on the First Report of the Thematic Committee on Gender and Development on the

Status of Children’s Homes.

Question again proposed.

HON. SEN. CHARUMBIRA: I move that the debate do now



Motion put and agreed to.

Debate to resume: Tuesday, 6th December, 2016.




Third Order read: Adjourned debate on motion on the Second Report of the Thematic Committee on Gender and Development on early child marriages.

Question again proposed.

         HON. SEN. MAKORE:     I move that the debate do now adjourn.


HON. SEN. MAKORE: Madam President, I  cannot wind up the motion now because I have observed that there are a few people who still want to contribute. I therefore propose to wind up the motion next Tuesday, removing it from the Order Paper.


explain to the House why you have not wound up the motion. You see it is part of the Executive’s duty  to this august House to respond to motions either from Committees or motions raised on given subjects, Ministers must come and respond, because this House - you as Senators will have debated and brought up your concerns in as far as given ministries are concerned. Like right now,  we are waiting for the

Ministry of Women’s Affairs as well as the Ministry of Public Service to respond to these two motions –[HON. SENATORS: Hear, hear.]-  but they have been contacted by our administration, still they have not come. Hon. Senators may wonder why some of these motions are still on the Order Paper. It is because the Executive has not bothered to come to this august House to respond to your motions which you have raised. So we have to give them a chance, maybe next week they can come and respond. Who seconds the motion of adjournment?

HON. SEN. TAWENGWA: I second. 

Motion put and agreed to.

Debate to resume: Tuesday, 6th December, 2016.




Fourth Order read: Adjourned debate on motion on the Report of the delegation to the 39th Plenary Assembly of the SADC Parliamentary Forum.

HON. SEN. MACHINGAIFA: Thank you Madam President for

giving me this opportunity to debate and also acknowledge the report and the motion or the Report that was presented in this House by Hon. Sen. Mohadi, seconded by Hon. Sen. Mutsvangwa; The report in which they were part of the delegation to the 39th Plenary Session of the SADC Parliamentary Forum held in Ezulwini, Swaziland from 24 May to 7 June 2016.

I also want to add my voice to the issues that they raised in this House which they have debated with other 15 SADC nations. The issues that they discussed were good, I acknowledge, such that I believe in this august House we also should emulate. As they debated as a region, they also bemoaned the issues of lack quorum in Parliament which is happening in other countries as well as Zimbabwe. They understood each other and they furthermore debated on the issues that are also topical in this country like child marriages. Yesterday many religious groups gathered to discuss the issue of child marriages and condemned those who were promoting this act.

They also discussed on how they debate in their respective Parliaments. Both the opposition and the ruling party debated in one accord in order to build up their regions. That pleased me a lot. Their convening as Members of Parliament to talk about such issues on how to develop their nation as well as the important legislation was also a priority.

The other issue that they debated on was the issue that Zimbabwe should honour its obligation in terms of paying subscriptions to the SADC PF. My request is that Zimbabwe should own up and pay its due subscriptions. They also talked about an issue that is of concern here in Zimbabwe, on the El Nino that there is climate change and we do not have enough rainfall. For that reason, there is drought.

They got to a point of agreeing that in other countries they also mentioned that they were experiencing the same situation. They further talked about the issue of electricity and the challenges that they face in various countries. Sometimes the supply is adequate and sometimes it is erratic. The issue they talked about was that of poor service delivery, especially when it came to women. On the issue of development, they noted that the situation in Zimbabwe is that we have women who are in leadership. Like in this august House, we have Madam President who is a woman and she presides in this House and Zimbabwe is in the forefront.

We also have women in the Judiciary, schools, churches and industries, which means that as they debated these issues, those who had come from Zimbabwe were experts. This is because in Zimbabwe the women are empowered and they are given the opportunity to lead and achieve their destiny. I was thinking that on the issue of poor service delivery of women, they would have debated on the issue of cotton production. They would have formed companies and that these women would assist those women inmates to get sanitary wear because the companies they form can manufacture sanitary wear. With these few words, I want to thank you Madam President.


Hon. Sen. Machingaifa for the suggestions that you have made to the women.

HON. SEN. MOHADI: Thank you Madam President. I move that the debate do now adjourn.


Motion put and agreed to.

Debate to resume: Tuesday, 6th December, 2016


Hon. Senators that when we are in this House, we do not do our businesses on the phone. We give our 100% attention to what is going on in the House. Thank you.



Fifth Order read: Adjourned debate on motion in reply to the Presidential Speech.

Question again proposed.


EDUCATION (HON. DR. DOKORA): Thank you Madam President. I

move that the debate do now adjourn.

Motion put and agreed to.

Debate to resume: Tuesday, 6th December, 2016.




CHIEF CHARUMBIRA): We only have one Minister, Hon. Dr.

Dokora, the Minister of Primary and Secondary Education.

HON. SEN. KOMICHI: I have got a very serious objection Mr.

President that the bench for the Ministers is empty. There is only one good Minister who has come. I propose that we must protest on the behaviour of the Ministers by allowing the Minister of Primary and Secondary Education to go so that we can adjourn the House because it does not help us. There is serious disrespect. It is not only today Hon. President. We have been watching for the last 4-5 months that Ministers are failing to come here.

If we get a maximum of three Ministers, we will be lucky and in most cases, we get the Deputy Ministers. We know very well the role of the Deputy Minister. It is not the front line of the Ministry. I think to send a strong word to the Executive is that we demand the presence of the Ministers. We feel very much belittled because on Wednesdays, Ministers are full in the Lower House, and come Thursdays, they do not even bother to come.

So, they underrate and belittle the Senate. I think we should stand up and voice against that kind of behavior. Today I propose that instead of bothering the Minister of Primary and Secondary Education who has come alone, can we give him leave.

HON. SEN. CHIPANGA: Thank you Mr. President.   I think that if we do that, we would have chased away the Minister.  He has been referred to as a good Minister.  Since he is here, let us do business with him and when he has done his job, he can go.  We cannot protest against him because he is here.  So, my proposal is that we ask the Minister the questions and when we are done with him, he may leave.  Thank you.

HON. SEN. MARAVA: Mr. President if you are ploughing, you do not do it with one cow but with two cows.  So, we cannot just keep the Minister on his own, we should let him go and when others come, then we can pose our questions to him.

HON. SEN. MAKORE: Mr. President, I would like to second this

particular thinking, particularly raised by Senator Komichi here.  In fact this is a very dignified House; it is an august House that has to be respected.  We are not by any way belittling the very honest Minister of Education, Hon. Dr, Dokora here, if at all we thank him for coming almost every time, he attends, we see him all the time here.

However, the fact that the majority of these Ministers do not seem to respect this House in terms of them taking this as a very important occasion to attend this Question and Answer Session, we therefore feel exactly like what was raised in the lower House.  I read a lot of Hansards from the lower House, in fact attending question and answer on Wednesdays and Thursdays is a necessity Hon. President.  So we do feel really that this move is not intending to belittle our Minister but it is to respect him and to also call for order that Ministers must understand that it is a call for duty to come and answer questions.

So, by all means Hon. Senators, we think really that this is an urging step to call for Ministers to come to this House, not a denial of our necessary duty, not an undermining in any form but an encouragement and to call for those people to come and attend.  Honestly, these are most important questions for the nation.  Senators are not only asking their questions from head but they are coming from their relevant constituencies and they need to be answered.

HON. SEN. MOHADI: Thank you Mr. President. I go against that

thinking of saying that other Ministers are not here, therefore Hon. Dr. Dokora should leave.  He does not stand for all the other Ministries, he is standing in for his own Ministry and he has the right to be asked questions.  If we are through with him then he will leave but we cannot say that he should go because this is a way of chasing him away, saying that we do not need him here because some of his colleagues did not come.  Let him do his job and then he goes after he has finished.


CHARUMBIRA): The way it is going is that this side feels this way and the other feeling that way thereby dividing the House.  I do not see that pattern changing, so you will all agree with me that these are just repetitions and it shows political dynamics of Parliament.

*HON. SEN. MASHAVAKURE: Thank you Mr. President.  I do

not know what it means if we say the Minister should go. Will the other Ministers have a way of knowing what will have happened?  I think this issue is the same with what Madam President said before she left the Chair; on the issue of motions that we raise in this House.  From my memory, if there is someone with a better memory, I will accept correction.  Since 2013, there has been one motion that was responded by the Minister and that motion was requesting for a holiday to celebrate

International Women’s Day.  That was the only motion that was responded to by the Minister ever since I came here in 2013.

So, what it means is that, like what the Hon. President has said, there is now a division of the House.  However, I think the issue at stake here is not about the ruling party or opposition but what can our Standing Orders do in order to address this issue to ensure that those who are supposed to come and answer questions come and do so.  We can divide the House and vote but when we come back, it will not be a solution because the Ministers will still not come.  So, we need to see how we can address the issue to ensure that Ministers come for Question Time and also to respond to motions.  If it was possible, I would suggest that firstly, we do not have a sitting calendar, so we do not know when we will sit again.  If possible, it would have been good for us to have an evaluation and look at the advantages and disadvantages of the sessions that we have, submit it to Madam President and they should also make an evaluation to see how they can address the issues.  This will assist Parliament in addressing some of these issues.  I think we will come back next week after we have protested but still on Thursday they will not come and we will not have solved anything. I thank you.


submission.  It was very good, progressive and intelligent.  I think we have a problem as a Parliament and fortunately, the Clerk, Deputy Clerk and the whole team is here.  I think it falls upon their shoulders to assist the process that we are sitting for no value.  We are actually not utilizing tax payer’s money to its fullest value because we just come to talk without any proper conclusive position which can yield any result.

So, Senator Mashavakure, you are perfectly right. I think we have the crisis which our administration and the Presiding Officers should look into so that the Ministers can respond to all the motions.  They should come to respond to both Questions Without Notice and Questions With Notice.  So, Senator Mashavakure well done.

I want to go back to the original proposer Hon. Senator Komichi and thank him for that position.  Senator Komichi, you are perfectly right.  This is not what is expected of us by Zimbabweans.  We do not come here to simply talk for no purpose.  So, we stand guided in future but Clerk of Parliament, if there was a way of having a resolution or a motion adopted as Senate to ensure that we call upon Ministers who do not come, somehow they are reprimanded in terms of the Standing Rules and Orders like we do for Committees, contempt of Parliament, because a Minister has gone for more than 3 times without coming to answer questions.  Unless we have good grounds, I think a Committee should be set up by Parliament to investigate why that Minister is behaving like that.  The same with responding to motions.  On that note, I thank Hon. Sen. Komichi, Hon. Sen. Mashavakure and others, I think finally we give the Minister the floor.  Those that want to raise questions with the Minister are welcome and those who feel that we are over burdening him can withhold their questions for next time.  Others may have very urgent questions and would want their questions responded to immediately.  That is how we should proceed and I will make a ruling on that one.  Let us proceed, for those who want to raise questions without notice to the Minister, you are welcome.  I remember Hon. Sen. Chipanga did indicate that he wanted to be the first.  So, I will allow you to be the first.  I thank you very much.

HON. SEN. MUSAKA:  On a point of order Mr. President.

THE TEMPORARY PRESIDENT:  What is your point of


HON. SEN. MUSAKA:  My point of order is on the issue of the Executive not coming not that people should not ask the Minister.  Why should the issue be thrown to the administration and not the Presiding Officers, that is the President of the Senate and his team?  I do not know what the rules are.   What are the rules?

HON. SEN. MLOTSHWA: On a point of order Mr. President.

THE TEMPORARY PRESIDENT: What is your point of order?

HON. SEN. MLOTSHWA:  We feel now that we are being

forced by the Chair to stick to only the questions of the Minister because we represent people with different opinions not only opinions that are to do with only his Ministry.  We feel by going ahead asking the Minister the questions, we are covering for the Ministers who are failing to come and attend to the Senate.  That being said, we feel we would rather not be here when one Minister is being asked questions, those who want to remain can remain asking.  I thank you very much.


THE TEMPORARY PRESIDENT: This is not a point where a

party can do that.  Anyway it is a democratic environment.  Those that want to leave should do so in silence. 

Hon. Senator Mlotshwa and some Senators walk out of the Senate.

*HON. SEN. CHIPANGA: Mr. President, my question is directed to the Minister of Primary and Secondary Education, Hon. Dr. Dokora.  Minister, we have almost come to the end of the year.  The Grade 7 results are out.  How do you handle a situation whereby the parent has not paid school fees?


EDUCATION (HON. DR. DOKORA):  Thank you Mr. President.  I

want to thank Hon. Sen. Chipanga for the pertinent question that will assist all of us as who have remained in this Senate to enlighten each other.  What I want is a situation whereby all children are paid up in fees.  The schools run using the very fees that are paid by the parents.  I came to this august House a number of times in the past three years ago, supporting the idea that a child is not at fault but the parent is obliged to pay fees.  You might be the guardian or might not have the papers to look after that child but you have the responsibility and the custodianship of that child.  So, that person is obligated to pay fees.

For those who do not have guardians, they are on BEAM project or they are under religious groups or other NGOs or organisations who are obliged to pay the fees.   For us to say that now the results are out and a child will be looking forward to his results but as a parent you are in debt in terms of fees, we need to pay our fees.  Do we want to destroy our schools?  Our hope is that as you go to collect results, just carry money to clear off the fees debt that you have.  If we do not, we will end up destroying our schools. Those who will not have paid primary fees and levies are the very ones who want to go to boarding schools.

So in boarding schools, as you get into the school, you need food.  So, what food will you eat if you have not paid any fees.  It will be bought by who?  My plea Senator is that for you to approach the

Ministry only, all of us should be obligated to encourage parents to go and pay their fees.  Honestly, you cannot be on part payment from

January to December.  The money is not much, it is US$15, US$5, US$35 which is equivalent to roughly two chickens.  We do not want a situation whereby you say I am not going to pay because my child has passed through that school.  What of those who are still to go to school.  So, my request Hon. Chipanga is that, we should also urge parents to pay their fees arrears as they collect their results.   We all know that our education system has been considerate and that we should not burden the child but the point is we need to pay.  I thank you.

*HON. SEN. CHIEF CHISUNGA:  Thank you Mr. President for

giving me the opportunity.  I want to pose my question to the Minister on a school called Chapoto which is a Government Primary School.  Is Government still committed to build this school and when is it likely to commence since there are no teachers as yet?

THE TEMPORARY PRESIDENT:  It is a question that needs to

be written down so that he can do research.  It is not a policy issue but if the Minister has knowledge, he is at liberty to respond.


EDUCATION (HON. DR. DOKORA): I thank you Mr. President.

Truly, your ruling is correct because for me to give a response that is convincing, the question should be put in writing.  I know it is somewhere around Mbire but I know that it is close to an area called Mariga.  Mariga school is in the process. We are going to build it and do so happily so that the community of the Duma will have the first school in their area which will benefit from the new design which will have quadrants to protect the school from whirlwind and other natural disasters.

The schools that we have built before have required so many repairs because of natural disasters but the new schools are not properly designed in the sense that they take into account the issue of whirlwinds to ensure that if the winds come, the roofs are not taken away.  So, Mariga is a typical prototype school of the new design.  Do not bemoan that there are no teachers, that is in order.  We can open a school, even in March, June or May.  Whenever we finish building a school, we then start enrolling kids and the schools commence.

HON. SEN. MOHADI:  My question pertains to schools in the resettlement areas.  You find that when people go to resettlement areas, they are resettled in groups which are very much apart from each other.  As a result, there might be one school.  Let me give you an example of a school in Beitbridge called Chonzeni.  In this resettlement area, there are only 23 families who are there.  They have a school there which has got 30 children only.  As a result, there is only one teacher who is teaching from Grade 1 to Grade 7.  Can you enlighten us on how such schools can be run?  Thank you.


accustomed to the particular way in which children access education which is the full-time formal schooling where they go to their local school.  There is also an alternative approach to attaining schooling in

Zimbabwe, and that alternative approach is called non formal education.

The non formal education is visible to us when a person is trying to supplement their various levels of education, whether at primary or at secondary school.  In the primary school, non formal education includes correspondence school which is run by my Ministry for primary education.  In the last six months, we have taken a decision to now escalate that to secondary education. The correspondence education or Open Distance Learning (ODL) is designed to reach out to the isolated learner and was designed originally in colonial times to take care of the eventualities such as the Hon. Senator has made reference to.  In other words, you cannot deploy four or five teachers to look after 15 or 30 kids, it is not economic.

So, instead of using the full time model, you use the non formal model where you deploy one teacher or at most two but they act as centre coordinators.  They get material which is prepackaged by the Ministry.  We have a department which is very vibrant called the Curriculum Development and Technical Services Department.  They then take the material whether it is to reach a one pupil or two pupil group in some resettlement area and in a family setting, that material must reach that child.  They must be able to reach primary schools guided by these centre supervisors.  So, they will attend and write the same examinations at the end of that primary school curriculum.  If it is secondary, they will also write the same curriculum at ‘O’ level and beyond.  That is how we manage these small groups of learners.  They are structured into the alternative system which is equally competent and yields the same outcomes for the learners. It is highly individualised and therefore is not dependent on getting teachers deployed in their numbers to take care of 30 kids who are from Grades 0 to Grade 7.  It will not be possible to deploy fulltime teachers.

HON. SEN. MASHAVAKURE:  Thank you Mr. President.  In

that respect, Hon. Minister, are you saying that you are going to revive the radio lessons that used to be conducted during colonial time because

I understand even white farmers’ children were using those radio lessons to learn in their isolated farm environments.  Thank you.

HON. DR. DOKORA:  The short answer is yes.  Already groundwork has been prepared to revive those radio lessons.  You know with ICT; we are also looking even to the TV Channel which we are going to get when we go fully digital.  One of the channels will be allocated to education and will occupy the morning shift and then our counterparts in Higher and Tertiary Education, Science and Technology Development will occupy the other shift.  So we will use the available channels to reach all learners in the country.  That is the only way we can justify our pursuit of equity.

I think the Hon. Senator will also be happy to know that even our examining system is sensitive also to the kind of media that the learners use at examination time.  We had the first candidates using brail in the last Grade 7 examinations; students who required special settings for those that were hard of hearing, sitting for their Grade 7 examinations.  Of course, there are variables that you then introduce in that space, like the duration.  They cannot be allocated the same time as the others but we use various channels to reach out to all learners.  The Zimbabwean education system is becoming more inclusive and more sensitive and therefore, more radical in approach.  I thank you.

+HON. SEN. BHEBE:  Thank you Mr. President.  My question is directed to the Minister of Primary and Secondary Education.  Hon. Minister, there is a very good school feeding programme going on in schools.  If you look at it, the children that are fed are from different families like the orphans and those from well-up families.  Will this programme stop when the drought is over or it will continue running to assist those orphans?


EDUCATION (HON. DR. DOKORA):  Thank you Mr. President.

The school feeding programme will not stop after the drought but it will go on into the future.  This programme is now part of a permanent future of the Zimbabwean education system.  I thank you.

Questions without Notice were interrupted by THE


Order Number 62.


adjourned at Sixteen Minutes to Four o’clock p.m. until Tuesday, 6th December 2016.



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