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SENATE HANSARD 12 MARCH 2020 29 31

                                                       PARLIAMENT OF ZIMBABWE

Thursday, 12th March, 2020.

The Senate met at Half-past Two O’clock p.m.

PRAYERS

(THE HON. PRESIDENT OF SENATE in the Chair)

ANNOUNCEMENT BY THE HON. PRESIDENT OF SENATE

APOLOGIES RECEIVED FROM MINISTERS  THE HON. PRESIDENT OF SENATE: I can see only three

Ministers in the House; Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs, Hon.

Musabayana, Minister of Higher and Tertiary Education, Hon. Prof. Murwira and the Deputy Minister of Home Affairs, Hon. Madiro.  May be others are on their way because at the moment I have not yet received the list of apologies.

I am being informed that on the list of apologies there is Hon. Air

Marshal (Rtd) P. Shiri, Minister of Lands, Agriculture, Water and Rural

Resettlement, Hon. F. Chasi, Minister of Energy and Power

Development, Hon. V. P. Haritatos, Deputy Minister of Lands, Agriculture, Water and Rural Resettlement, Hon. D. Karoro, Deputy Minister of Lands Agriculture, Water and Rural Resettlement.

HON. SEN. DR. MAVETERA: On a point of order Madam President.  We have been having so many issues related to the Minister of Finance and Economic Development.  Most of the Ministers, including the Leader of Government Business are not competent to answer those issues.  I think the country currently is under severe economic problems and we need answers to tell our constituents.  Therefore, we need the Minister to come and address this House on the economic situation in the country. We know he is busy  but we need answers to the outstanding questions.  Thank you Madam President.

THE HON. PRESIDENT OF SENATE: I think your point of

order is very important.  The Leader of the House is not here and those questions where the particular Ministers for those Ministries are not here, it is going to be very difficult. Also with us is the Deputy Minister of Information, Communication Technology and Courier Services, Hon.

Phuti.

I am advised that one of our clerks has gone into the National Assembly to check whether there are other Ministers.  We now also have the Deputy Minister of Energy and Power Development, Hon. Mudyiwa.

 ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE

HON. SEN. S. NCUBE: My question is directed to the Minister of Home Affairs and Cultural Heritage.  Minister, any time after 1900 hours, especially along Harare Gardens, it is no longer safe to pass through, especially when you are alone because of the street kids.

Kwame Nkrumah and Julius Nyerere are also the same. What is the

Government’s plan to remove the street kids who are all over the town, especially at night because they are becoming a nuisance to the ordinary people?

THE MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS AND CULTURAL

HERITAGE (HON. MATHEMA): Thank you Madam President.

With due respect, the important question, the Hon. Senator raised touches on our sister Ministry in terms of street kids.  However, in terms of safety, it is the mandate of the Ministry of Home Affairs to secure and to make sure that all citizens go about their lives in security and where there are  hotspots, like she has mentioned, the command arm will take care of that to make sure that people are safe.  Thank you Madam President.

THE HON. PRESIDENT OF SENATE:  Thank you Hon.

Minister.  Are the street kids becoming violent?  Is there any problem or it is just seeing them?

HON. SEN.  NCUBE:  They are violent and they can even take food away from you.  So it is no longer safe.  I thank you.

THE HON. PRESIDENT OF SENATE:  So I think may be the

Minister did not hear the part that the street kids are becoming violent so that they can rectify the issue.

HON. MADIRO:  Thank you very much Madam President.  I

understood it but it was the removal aspect which we are not competent to respond to.  However, as far as the violent aspect is concerned we take note and will hand it over to the responsible authorities.

THE HON. PRESIDENT OF SENATE:  Thank you.  In order

for us to have peace, it takes you to talk to your colleagues so that the place becomes peaceful.

HON. SEN. TIMVEOS:  My question goes to the Leader of the

House since the Finance Minister is not here.  I am sure you have already heard about the complaint that things are getting out of hand out there.  So we need answers from the Finance Minister. Things are not well out there.  Obviously the policy that the Finance Minister has introduced seems to have back-fired. People are suffering and the rates this morning had gone up to more than RTGs$40 to US$1.  Now people cannot afford anything.  What is the Finance Minister really doing?  People are panicking and lost for words.  Surely, the Finance Minister should be here.  I know that you sit in Cabinet. Please help us because things are not well.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE, LEGAL AND

PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (HON. ZIYAMBI):  I want to thank

the Hon Senator for the concern which is well noted.  The Minister of Finance and Economic Development gave a Ministerial Statement yesterday in the National Assembly and he is prepared to come and give the statement here as well and clarify any issues that need to be clarified.  I believe the issues that the Hon. Senator raised need a comprehensive statement and a session where MPs can interrogate issues pertaining to the economy and policies that he has put in place rather than through this question and answer session where he is represented.  With your indulgence, I will check on him so that he can come and present as he did yesterday in the National Assembly.

HON. SEN. TIMVEOS:  Supplementary Madam President.  I am now worried, if the Hon Minister of Finance and Economic

Development gave a ministerial statement yesterday in the National Assembly, is that why we woke up to see sky rocketing rates?  If he gave that statement and it did not help reduce the rates, what does it mean for the Minister?

THE HON. PRESIDENT OF SENATE:  I was going to ask the

Leader of the House to remind the Minister of Finance and Economic Development that we have two Houses in this ParliamentAs he gave his statement yesterday, he should have known that he was supposed to the same statement to this House.  So please can you talk to the Minister to do his work.

HON. SEN. DUBE:  My question is directed to the Leader of the

House in the absence of the Minister of Primary and Secondary Education.  Do teachers still have vacation leave because I am made to understand they do not have vacation leave days?

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE, LEGAL AND

PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (HON. ZIYAMBI):  Thank you

Madam President.  Our teachers have vacation leave.  My understanding is that it has been structured in a different manner from the rest of the civil service.  They also have school calendars whereby they will have some time off from work.  So if she has specific concerns about specific teachers who are unable to go on vacational leave on time, then she can put that in writing.  Indeed, they do have vacation leave which is different from ours.  I thank you.

THE HON. PRESIDENT OF SENATE:  I think the Hon.

Member should put that question in writing.

HON. SEN. DR. MAVETERA:  My question is directed to the Minister of Higher and Tertiary Education.  Let me start by applauding the Minister for trying to avail loans for Higher and Tertiary institutions.  Is the Minister aware that at the moment, most of those loans are not accessible because there is only one bank disbursing those loans?  If you do not have a parent, guardian or guarantor with a salary going into a CBZ account then you do not qualify.  As a result of that, many students are failing to get the loans because they need to have a salary from the guarantor which goes into CBZ.  Why is it that it is only that bank which is given that money to disburse?  Is he aware that it is defeating the purpose of those loans that we have been advocating for all these years because we wanted it to go to the most disadvantaged?  I thank you Madam President.

THE HON. MINISTER OF HIGHER AND TERTIARY

EDUCATION, INNOVATION, SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY DEVELOPMENT (HON. PROF. MURWIRA):  I wish to thank Hon.

Senator Mavetera for the very useful question which enables us to bring clarity on the issue.  We have got two types of loans being disbursed through banks.  The first loan is the commercial bank loan that goes through POSB, ZB, CBZ, Get bucks and Eduloan, I think they are about six.  Thos loans is a facility through RBZ where a certain amount has been set aside for the banks to use. We have been promoting this a lot since 2018 until we hit a snag, which I am going to explain.  When we were promoting this loan we then discovered the snag in it which is that people require payslips. Therefore it was excluding those students whose guardians might not have pay slips. That was starting from last year specifically on 26th August, but we had started on 12th February2019 after all these problems were encountered with this other commercial loan almost with 25 000 students on it and so forth. We started the instrument of a Government backed loan and we started discussions after all these questions also from Hon. Members with the Ministry of

Finance. In August, 2019, we were allowed to have this facility. It was quite a difficult one because they were saying it failed before and can you put safeguards this time.

We had to put it to tender to see which bank was interested in disbursing this type of Government backed loan. That is how CBZ came out as the one which agreed to do that. It answers the question why

CBZ. The Government backed loan started being financed to $8 million. Our agreement with CBZ is such that for every dollar, they put times two in terms of their disbursements. It means if Government puts $10 million, they will give loans worth $20 million and so forth. We started with $8 million. In fact, Government or through Parliament voted for $7.5 million and it means we had $15 million. It increased to $30 million.

This year, through Parliament we now have $52.5 million which basically means at this moment we can be able to disburse loans of Z$105 million. The form which has to be given to students is given through the universities because the universities form what they call student loan committees where students apply. They collect the forms and they go with them to the bank. On the form, policy-wise we said we are introducing this alternative loan, especially for those who might not have pay slips. So, there is a section which asks for other guarantees other than a pay slip.

This information that I am getting from Hon. Senator that there might be some confusion in terms of people being asked to bank through CBZ. Hon. President, we will have to investigate this because that is not the spirit of the policy. The spirit of the policy is that people with or without pay slips could be able to access this loan. I want to thank this Hon. House for having allowed us through the Finance Act to have this kind of loan for our students. We are looking forward to more votes into this so that this money gets to more than a billion in the next coming years. I thank you Hon. President.

HON. SEN. DR. MAVETERA: Thank you Madam President and

thank you Hon. Minister. Can I impress on the Minister, we appreciate on the measures he said is going to take. As I speak right now, there are thousands of students who have failed and some are not coming to school. I think this issue is a of matter of urgency because some of them do have parents who are banking with other banks and given as guarantor, but they are turned off because they need someone whose salary is directly going to CBZ. I would appreciate his urgent intervention because I am speaking on behalf of a very important constituency. As we speak right now, a lot of students and a particular example is at UZ, they are not going to school as a result of that. Thank you Madam President.

THE MINISTER OF HIGHER AND TERTIARY

EDUCATION, INNOVATION, SCIENCE AND DEV.

TECHNOLOGY (HON. PROF. A. MURWIRA): Thank you Hon.

President. I wish to thank Hon. Sen. Mavetera for the additional question because I have to clarify that we have not turned away any student from university as we speak. No student has been turned away, and so we believe that has to be taken as a fact. However, all those things of access we are going to rectify them. To date, more than 80% of the students fully paid their fees at the University of Zimbabwe in full.

However, there are still forms that are going to be considered through the university and to CBZ and I think this clarification is very useful to us because we will be able to take into consideration all the information that we are getting from here to make sure that all these are okay. Thank you.

THE HON. PRESIDENT OF SENATE: Thank you Hon.

Minister. It is only that if you can rectify that problem soon if there is anything which is happening over there.

*HON. SEN. SHUMBA: Thank you Madam President. My

question was supposed to go to the Minister of Transport but I am not seeing him here. I am directing this question to the Leader of the House. I wanted to understand what the Ministry is planning about potholes in roads even in highways - the highway from Harare to Beitbridge. Everyday people are dying because of potholes and cars are damaged. I even thought that if they had looked for a helicopter for me. I wanted to understand what plans the Minister is having about those potholes, because some of them are too big. You cannot even avoid them because when you try to avoid one, you get into the other. You find some haulage trucks having accidents because of these potholes. It is so frightening to use that road. I wish we could get helicopters because that road is no longer accessible.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE, LEGAL AND

PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (HON. ZIYAMBI): I want to thank

the Senator for that good question. Government policy is that our roads must be accessible especially the road you are talking about. This road has to be expanded. This work has started on the road but this issue of potholes I will take it to the Minister of Transport so that they plan that the portholes are filled in whilst we are trying to make the road better. So the issue of potholes, we will take it to the Minister that we fill in those potholes.  Thank you.

HON. SEN. ZIVIRA:  My question is directed to the Minister of

Foreign Affairs and International Trade.  When is Zimbabwe signing the

Protocol on the African Charter on Human and People’s Rights on the

Rights of Older Persons otherwise known as the Protocol on the Rights of Older Persons which was adopted by AU on 31st January 2016?

Thank you.

THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS AND INTERNATIONAL TRADE (HON. MUSABAYANA):  I want to

thank the Hon. Member for the question.  Unfortunately, I think it is a bit of a specific question.  I am not sure about that particular treaty but I will check with our records and see where it is and then come and update the House.

THE HON. PRESIDENT OF SENATE:  Maybe I encourage the

Hon. Senator that since it is a particular question, can you please put it in writing.

*HON. SEN. CHIEF NHEMA:  Thank you President of Senate.  whilst we are waiting for the Minister of Finance and Economic Development, I would like to ask the Minister of Home Affairs that is he aware that there are policies that are made by the Ministry of Finance and Economic Development which have an impact on us because they will not be enforcing them? What I am trying to say is that, if you go to the Finance Department, they will tell you that we have a policy which uses United States dollars or RTGS which are two currencies here in

Zimbabwe, but when you go out, I do not know if the Minister of Home Affairs stays here, we have an RTGS, zip it, cash, ecocash, United States dollars and coins.  Those are monies which are used.  When you want one thing, you are told three different prices.

If you are in school, they are teaching it as a currency, which means we have about seven currencies in this country, but if you go to Finance, they will tell you that we only have two currencies.  The Ministry of Home Affairs, I think should tell us the gap that remains between the policy that is there and enforcing.  Do they stay in this country, are you aware of it?  We are suffering.  We need their help.

Thank you.

THE HON. PRESIDENT OF SENATE:  Minister of Home

Affairs you are being asked where you stay – [Laughter] –

*THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS AND

INTERNATIONAL TRADE (HON. MADIRO):  Thank you Madam President.  The Question is very pertinent.  I stay in this country.  What I can say is that I think they know that I am the Deputy Minister so they do not use different currencies but we hear that there are different currencies.  For it to be criminalised, a person should be caught in the act.  It is not a crime that you find a person with any other currency besides the Zimbabwean dollar.

I think, Hon. President, you are aware that it is not a crime to find someone with forex but for them to be demanded that they should use forex is now a crime, but they have to be caught in the act.  Thank you.

*HON. SEN. CHIEF CHARUMBIRA:  This issue has troubled

  1. This week the Minister of Health and Child Care gave a very truthful statement about coronavirus. He said it as it is.  We want all Ministers to do that.  All Ministers have to do that.  It is not your problem; it is not your fault.  This is for the nation.  If there is no rain, there is no rain and if we have drought, it is not your fault, do not tell us that it has rained.  These things are happening.  We want us to help each other.  If we agree that we are having a problem, we can assist each other because if we go out in the streets, we see it happening.

*THE HON. PRESIDENT OF SENATE:  Order, please ask

your question.

*HON. SEN. CHIEF CHARUMBIRA:  My question is very

important.  The question is, if you say you do not know, you weaken us.

We are asking and if you do not know, come back with a Ministerial Statement here that we get the truth that we fix the problem together.

People are suffering.  We cannot keep quiet when people are suffering.  This is very bad.  More people are demanding forex.  We have to do something.

*THE HON. PRESIDENT OF SENATE:  I would like to inform

the Senate that administration was trying to get hold of the Minister of

Finance and Economic Development so that he attends today’s session but it appears he is out of town, but we are organising that he attends Senate next week so that he can give us a Ministerial Statement on this issue and thereafter, we can get clarification from him.  Thank you. *HON. SEN. CHIEF CHIKWAKA:  Thank you Madam

President.  Allow me to ask the Minister of Energy and Power Development.  My question, Madam President is how can she assist us as many homes are falling apart because people are spending time in queues.  Women and men are taking advantage of destroying their families whilst sleeping outside looking for fuel.  What are you doing in terms of fixing the issue of fuel?  People are always in queues looking for diesel and petrol.

THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF ENERGY AND POWER DEVELOPMENT (HON. MUDYIWA):  Thank you Madam President

and I also want to thank the Hon. Member for his question which is very important at this moment.  Every week when I come into this House, I meet this question on how we are going to fix the issue of fuel.  Like I explained last week, all the problems are not solved in one day.  We are trying our level best to fix the issue of fuel.  We are working together with the Ministry of Finance and Economic Development and the RBZ on how to solve the issue of fuel.  We feel the pain to see long queues.

These problems are caused by a lot of things.  One of the things which I

always talk about is for us to get fuel from our tanks to service stations, we need to pay upfront. Why do they not lower down the number of service stations which are demanding forex because we do not want to cry.  As chiefs we are custodians of the culture, it is not very good for you Madam President to sleep in a fuel queue for three days.  We should help each other.  Some are spending three to four days in the queue and some are now taking advantage of that.

*HON.  MUDYIWA: Thank you Madam President, we are

looking into that.  Those are allegations that there are many service stations which are demanding forex.  However, as I have said before, there are only a few which are allowed, so we are investigating all those issues so that we ensure that there are few service stations allowed. The ZERA is moving around monitoring and evaluating but they are being overwhelmed on their capacity and they cannot go to each and every service station and they cannot monitor how fuel is being distributed.  I answered that question last week, if we investigate how many were allowed and how many are selling, then we will see the way forward from there. May all the Senators here bear with us as a Ministry, we are doing our level best but the challenge before us is not small but a big one.

HON. SEN. TIMVEOS: Thank you Madam President for giving me the opportunity to have a supplementary question.  I want to ask the Deputy Minister of Energy and Power Development; are you dealing with a cartel which is said to be disturbing the issue of fuel.  They are said to be corrupt and they withdraw fuel and start threatening people whilst we are suffering.  That cartel is the one which is causing trouble for us.  Why can you not deal with that cartel strongly so that we can solve the issue?

Madam President, there was an issue of foreign currency which was said by the Minister.  When I was crossing the border; when we are coming from South Africa, we pay duty in forex.  I come from Zvishavane and fuel is bought in US$ there and there is no queue but it is not everyone who is getting US$, because we want to pay through swipe.  Even if you go to the passport office, they want the US$, if you can deal with the cartel, it will solve our problems.

*HON. SEN. CHIEF NHEMA: Thank you Madam President.  I

want to ask the Minister; why is it that this week it is said we are only getting petrol and another week it is diesel, what will be happening that there is an exchange of supply between diesel and petrol.  For those who are selling fuel in US$, they sell it at US$1.30, at how much are they getting that fuel?

THE HON. PRESIDENT OF SENATE: You may answer the

last question.  The question that you do not know how many service stations are selling in forex, I plead with you that the Minitry be serious

– [HON. SENATORS: Hear, hear.] –

HON. MUDYIWA:  Thank you Madam President.  I think the question which has been asked by Hon. Sen. Chief Nhema; I think I am now confused –

THE HON. PRESIDENT OF SENATE: It is on the price used

by those selling in forex.

*HON. MUDYIWA: Let me say, I explained it before, those who are allowed to sell in forex. The prices are controlled but for those ones who are selling illegally, their prices are not controlled by ZERA, they are just putting their prices.  It is not lawful, they were not authorised by ZERA. That is why we are saying we are trying to investigate and find out the truth.

*THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF ENERGY AND POWER

DEVELOPMENT (HON. MUDYIWA):  Thank you Madam

President.  I am now confused by the question that has been asked by the Hon. Sen. Chief Nhema.  I explained this before. The prices for those who were allowed to sell in foreign currency are controlled but for those who are selling illegally, their prices are not controlled by ZERA.  They are just putting their prices unlawfully.  They were not allowed by ZERA.  That is why I said we are trying to investigate to find out the truth.  ZERA is mandated to go out to service stations and see what is happening.  We are trying our level best to solve the issue.  I do not have the gazetted price off hand.

If we compare our prices and those within the region, our prices are very low.  We are seeing an arbitrage and inflation of prices.  If the fuel is being sold in Zimbabwean dollars and someone changes his US dollar, he can buy more fuel if he is buying fuel that is sold in the local currency.  For those who were allowed to sell in foreign currency, their prices are known.  For those who are selling outside the law, I do not know the price.

*HON. SEN. WUNGANAYI:  The Minister is not aware of how many people were allowed to sell fuel in foreign currency.  I do not know who gave them the authority if the Minister does not know.  This is frightening.

*HON. MUDYIWA:  I am not refuting that there are people charging fuel in foreign currency but those who were allowed to sell in foreign currency – their charge is known.  I know that it is more than a dollar and some cents.  I cannot cram all the figures in my head but I know that it is one dollar something.  I will bring the figures that were gazetted by ZERA.

THE HON. PRESIDENT OF SENATE:  We cannot blame the

Minister for not having the exact figures off hand because if she just guesses, tomorrow we will blame her for that.  Minister, may you bring us the exact figures.

HON. SEN. MUPFUMIRA:  My question is directed to the Minister of Higher and Tertiary Education.  First of all, we need to applaud Government for having increased the number of universities in the country from one at independence to over a dozen.  We now have universities in all provinces.

What is Government policy in ensuring that we have equitable distribution of institutions of higher learning excluding universities in all provinces especially with devolution now being a real process?  I am talking about polytechnics, technical colleges and teachers colleges.  I will give one example of Mashonaland West Province which has only one university and nothing else as far as higher and tertiary education is concerned.

THE MINISTER OF HIGHER AND TERTIARY

EDUCATION, INNOVATION, SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY DEVELOPMENT (HON. PROF. MURWIRA):  Our policy is to

increase access to higher and tertiary education in the country across geography, gender and different abilities.

The question from the Hon. Sen. is about other institutions other than universities which are tertiary institutions.  Chinhoyi University is occupying an area that was a technical college and we understand that.  We have been promoting Mupfure Technical College which is there but we are also in the process of introducing more colleges, only that this year we have started with promoting the establishment of Hwange

Teachers’ College to make sure that we have built infrastructure at that place.  We are also in the process of putting up a technical college in Plumtree and we are busy with the land application to do that – a 936 hectare area.  We are also in the process of establishing a technical industrial training college at Chivi.  We are on the move.

On all areas will be able to be reached at the same time but our policy is to increase access to higher and tertiary education – resources permitting, but we also believe that will-power is more important.  Our will is to make sure that Mashonaland West – sometimes the disadvantage is that it is so close to Harare, so people come to colleges in Harare.  Everybody ends up thinking that the colleges that are in Harare are also for Mashonaland West but we hear the point and we are in the process; we are looking at the possibility of putting a technical college at Trelawney – our budget permitting.   The policy is very clear, increase access to higher and tertiary education by geography, gender and ability.

HON. SEN. CHIEF MAKUMBE:  My question is directed to the Minister of Energy and Power Development.  Water is a very important resource in our day to day life as the human body is three quarters water but we find that water is not being able to be accessed because it is not being driven to where it is required due to lack of electricity.  What is the Ministry’s policy regarding efficient supply to water treatment plants dotted throughout this country since people are not getting water because there is no electricity at all?

THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF ENERGY AND POWER DEVELOPMENT (HON. MUDYIWA):  I remember very well that

last week when we were in this House, again that same question was asked and I gave a response.  The policy of our Ministry is that such critical areas should be supplied with electricity they need.  Most of such areas have got dedicated lines.  If I remember very well, even the question that was asked, there is a dedicated one line which passes through one of the water purification plants to another mine or so, but we cannot construct a dedicated specifically to the water purification plant.  These electricity projects are capital intensive but if there is a dedicated line which passes through them and then goes to the other place that is what we have tried to do so that we ensure that water pumping is not disrupted but if at some point there is no electricity, it could be maybe there is a fault or because of some other problems.  You know we have got a number of reported cases of vandalism on our transformers and everything else but we want to make sure that we have got dedicated lines for such critical areas like hospitals and water treatment plants.

HON. SEN. ENG. MUDZURI: Hon. Minister, if you can have a dedicated line to an institution, what makes it impossible to have a dedicated line to a water treatment plant?

HON. MUDYIWA:  Electricity projects are capital intensive.  We can have a dedicated line to a water treating point but which is also dedicated further to another area or place, that is what I am trying to explain.  At the moment, if we do not have a dedicated line to that area, constructing a new dedicated line to supply electricity to a water treating point is very costly for ZETDC at the moment because of the financial constraints that they are going through.

Our policy as a Ministry is that we have a dedicated line to such places and we have tried to do that with all the water treatment plants.  I thank you.

Questions Without Notice were interrupted by THE HON.

PRESIDENT OF SENATE in terms of Standing Order Number 62.

      HON. SEN. TIMVEOS:  Madam President, may we please have

20 more minutes.  We have Hon. Ministers here …

THE HON. PRESIDENT OF SENATE:  No, we have to follow

procedures.  Let us do it properly.  What is it?  I am asking the whole House.

HON. SEN. NCUBE:  Thank you Madam President.  I propose

that the time for Questions Without Notice be extended by 15 minutes.

HON. SEN. TIMVEOS:  I second.

THE HON. PRESIDENT OF SENATE:  You have got to learn

to do things properly.  We have procedures in this House.  How long are we extending the time to?  Twenty minutes? – [HON. ZIYAMBI:  She said 15 minutes.] – Alright, let us extend the time for 15 minutes up to

Quarter to Four o’clock.

HON. SEN. CHIEF NYANGAZONKE:  Thank you Madam

President.  My question is directed to the Minister of Home Affairs. Hon. Minister, we have started losing quite a number of cattle because of people who transport cattle overnight.  What is Government’s policy on people who transport cattle in the evening?  Also, we have noticed that we no longer have overnight roadblocks whereby a lot of cattle are being slaughtered and the meat finding its way into towns.  Thank you.

THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS AND

CULTURAL HERITAGE (HON. MADIRO):  Thank you very much

Hon. President.  The question from the Hon. Senator is very important given the challenges currently in the country where people are slaughtering cattle, that is not very healthy.  We are going to encourage our Police Force to increase roadblocks to make sure that is contained.  I thank you.

*HON. SEN. KOMICHI:  Thank you Mr. President. My question

is directed to the Minister of Foreign Affairs and International Trade.

Over the past two weeks, President Donald Trump signed what is called an Exit Order to increase people on the targeted restrictions.  What is

Government’s policy and what is happening in terms of removing the log jam between Zimbabwe and the United States of America?

*THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS AND

INTERNATIONAL TRADE (HON. MUSABAYANA):  Thank you

Mr. President and I want to thank the Hon. Senator for his question.  It is true that the Americans have included two more people on their sanctions list.  Previously, we had 141 and companies but they have added two more.

We are not happy with the development but they are saying that it is because of what happened, like the 1st August, 2019 shootings and the other one that happened on 1st January, 2019.  It has nothing to do with what is happening.  We have re-engaged the United States of America but also we have other constituents that think that something was not handled well. We have people who are writing to them  on unverified issues of people who are dying of which Government is not aware of.

This is causing the impasse between us and the United States of America but as a country, we will continue with the re-engagement process.

What we are doing is formalisation of engagement like what we did with the European Union, that we sit down each and every year so that our relationship with the United States of America remains sound.  I thank you.

*HON. SEN. SHOKO:  Hon. Minister, if the United States of America has added two more people on the sanctions list and they also informed us that these people were involved in the August and January shootings, what are our investigations saying?  I am saying this because if this House understands how these things happened it will help them to explain properly even when they travel outside the country.  Did we investigate that these people were not involved in those incidences that are being mentioned by the Americans? I thank you.

HON. MUSABAYANA:  Thank you Hon. Senator for the

question.  As Government, we did not say that these people were culpable of the crimes that they are being accused of and we are not saying that we are investigating those issues because with Ncube, it had to do with the shutting down of internet connectivity.

On the issue of Rtd. General Sanyatwe it was to do with the

August shootings that were investigated by the Monthlante Commission.  We have prepared a response which the Ministry is currently working on with Home Affairs. Those are residual issues and have nothing to do with what is happening in the country.  These are the issues that we are seized with.

*HON. SEN. CHIEF CHARUMBIRA:  Thank you Mr.

President, my question is directed to the Minister of Higher and Tertiary Education, Innovation, Science and Technology Development to confirm the existence of a certain policy and it is good if the policy is already there.  When I am holding meetings with kraal heads, I want to be able to explain to them on how colleges are working with communities.  Is it true that colleges are working with communities?  If it is true, may you keep on with the credible work?

*THE MINISTER OF HIGHER AND TERTIARY EDUCATION, INNOVATION, SCIENCE AND TECHOLOGY DEVELOPMENT (HON. PROF. MURWIRA):  Thank you Hon.

President and thank you Hon. Sen. Chief Charumbira.  Yes, it is true that we said in order for a school to be successful, it has to be seen through the development of communities.  So we said that every college and university must adopt the community and it is a full policy which gives benefit to our community.  Colleges and Universities should be able to do things for the community.  We should be talking of an Engineering department having built bridges or constructed structures in communities as part of their training.  I agree that is the policy we are talking about, for people who are unable to do anything after finishing college.  We are saying we no longer want that kind of education.  We have introduced the 5.0 education to the people that will ensure that we are educated.  We cannot say we are educated when we go hungry, go without bridges or without medicine.  Hence universities through the 5.0 education should be visible to the people.  That is very true.

*HON. SEN. CHABUKA:  My question is directed to the Deputy Minister of Mines.  In Zimbabwe there is a challenge of foreign currency and people talk about it every day.  Currently we are treading on minerals, especially in Manicaland, where I come from.  We are not getting any benefit from those minerals as Zimbabweans.  Why do we not copy our neighbours, Botswana whose minerals are controlled by Government and the proceeds help all the citizens of that country, not just individuals and their families who extract the minerals for their own personal benefit? We are suffering Mr. President.  Why do we not as a country say mining is done by Government so that everyone benefits.

*THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF MINES AND MINING

DEVELOPMENT (HON. KAMBAMURA): I want to thank the Hon.

Senator for the pertinent question.  Firstly, I will touch on the foreign currency challenges that we are having, yet we are walking on minerals.  Yesterday the Minister of Finance and Economic Development told the National Assembly that we do not have any challenges with foreign currency, but the challenge is with the distribution of foreign currency.

Our minerals bring a lot of foreign currency which is directed to purchasing drugs, fuel and food.  In the last season we had a drought and Government is using foreign currency to buy grain.  Most of the foreign currency is coming from the minerals.  Many people are surviving because of the foreign currency that is coming from our minerals.

Countries like Botswana and South Africa also experienced what we are experiencing today but they are now at another level.  So we are treading in their footsteps and we will get to a stage where other people will make reference to us as we will be mining our diamonds and gold.  That is why we said as a Ministry, by next year we will be paying our revenue of $12 billion.  So you see that Government is working and you will see how our minerals will benefit the people.  The period 2018 to 2019 was set aside as stabilising periods.  The year 2020 and 2021 going forward, we will be building our economy.

So, Hon Senator do not lose hope, we have a lot of minerals we are working on but at the present moment because of lack of financial resources, Government cannot excavate all the mines.  I think our President has been selling Zimbabwe so that investors can come and help us at this stage until we are stable and able to mine our minerals by ourselves.  I think you have seen that there were other mines where the Government was mining but because of the economic challenges, those mines have been closed down and cannot be opened.  So we are banking on investors to come and cede their money so that our economy grows to the 12 billion level.

[Time Limit]

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS WITH NOTICE

LEVEL OF AWARENESS OF MARRIAGE LAWS IN RURAL AND

URBAN AREAS

  1. HON. SEN. CHIMBUDZI asked The Minister of Justice, Legal and Parliamentary Affairs to apprise the House on the current level of awareness of marriage laws in rural and urban areas; explain the causes of child marriages and measures being taken by the government to curb the practice and whether traditional leaders are involved in the fight against child marriages.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE, LEGAL AND

PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (HON. ZIYAMBI):  Thank you Mr

President.  The Hon. Senator wanted to know about marriage laws and what we are doing about it.  I must say that we have a Bill that is before Parliament and I want the indulgence of the Hon. Senator that we defer this and we deliberate on it when the Bill is before the House.  I thank you.

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE:  Hon.

Chimbudzi, any objection.

HON. SEN. CHIMBUDZI: No objection Mr President.

Motion put and agreed to.

MOTION

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE, LEGAL AND

PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (HON. ZIYAMBI): Thank you Mr.

President. I move that Orders of the Day, Nos. 1 to 15 be stood over until Order of the Day, No. 16 has been disposed of. I thank you.

Motion put and agreed to.

SECOND READING

INTERNATIONAL TREATIES BILL [H. B. 10A, 2019]

Sixteenth Order read: Second Reading: International Treaties Bill [H. B. 10A, 2019].

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE, LEGAL AND

PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (HON. ZIYAMBI): Thank you Mr.

President. I rise to give my Second Reading Speech on the International Treaties Bill and I bring this most important Bill, required to be enacted not only because our Constitution mandates it in Section 327, but also because our values as a people and as a member of the international community of nations demands it.

Mr. President, for a long time our country was an outcast of the internal community of nations under the illegal colonial regime that declared the so called independence in 1965. That regime pretended to be a sovereign nation while existing in defiance of internal law and the norms and international customary law. Thanks to the international community of nations, and in particular our brothers and sisters in the then Organisation of African Unity (now the African Union), our people’s long and bitter struggle for justice, liberty and independence was brought to an earlier conclusion than perhaps many of us could have hoped in the face of a regime determined to keep us oppressed for the sake of a selfish few.

In the wake of our liberation in 1980, we naturally gave priority to our internal reconstruction and reconciliation needs and to reshaping our domestic order. In those early years, there was little done in the way of constructing a legal framework for engagement with the international community of nations. It was only in 1987 with the passage of the

Constitution of Zimbabwe Amendment NO (7) Act that a new Section

(second 111B) was added to the old Constitution to approve the manner in which international agreements and conventions were to be approved by Parliament before ratification by the President.

Mr. President, even then, it was uncertain whether approval and ratification of treaties was in itself sufficient to domesticate those treaties, that is to say, to treat them as part of our domestic law which our courts had to take judicial notice of. The later doctrine is known in internal law as the Doctrine of Incorporation. The alternative doctrine known as the Doctrine of Transformation, which is favoured by most Common Law jurisdictions of a treaty by the enactment of domestic legislation setting out modalities of how that treaty is to be implemented domestically (unless the treaty in question was “self-existing”).

This conflict of doctrines was only resolved in 1993 with the enactment of the Constitution of Zimbabwe Amendment (No. 12)

) Act: With effect from 1 November, 1993, when this Act came into force, the common law position regarding the inception of international treaties in the domestic sphere, that is to say the Doctrine of

Transformation, was embodied in the new section of the old Constitution. The benefits of international law ought to be obvious to us all, but let us briefly rehearse them in case any reminder is needed. I am quoting here from a United Nations fact sheet dated 2008: “Without it, there could be chaos. Internal laws sets up a framework based on States as the principal actors in the internal legal system, and it defines their legal responsibilities in their conduct with each other, and, within State boundaries, with their treatment of individuals. Its domain encompasses human rights disarmament, internal crime, refugees, migration, problems of nationality, the treatment of prisoners, the use of force, and the conduct of war, among others. It also regulates the global commons, such as the environment, sustainable development, international waters, outer space, global communications and world trade.”

Mr. President, the details of the Bill before you are adequately set out in the Explanatory Memorandum. It will establish a uniform procedure for the consideration and approval of internal treaties by the Cabinet and Parliament before their ratification by the President, and for their publication after their ratification or, in some cases, before their ratification. One of  the main mischief’s sought to be remedied by this Bill is that many international treaties having far-reaching consequences for our domestic law are concluded without the courts or the public having due notice of those treaties by way of their official publication. Even where official publication of the treaty is not possible or desirable for any reason, some official notice of the fact of its existence and ratification should be made for the benefit of the public. This Bill seeks to provide a mechanism for t he publication or notification of such treaties.

Hon. Members, this Bill will firmly lodge our country as a valued, reliable and respected member in the International Community of Nations. Many, I can even say almost all, of those nations have great goodwill towards us and harbor high expectations of our participation as a member of their community. We already as you know participate in many peace keeping endeavours around the globe under the auspices of the United Nations. Let us not fail them Mr. President. I urge you to support and pass this law whole heartedly. I so submit, Mr. President Sir, and I move that the International Treaties Bill [H. B. 10A, 2019] be now read a second time.

Motion put and agreed to.

Bill read a second time.

Committee Stage:  With leave, forthwith.

HON. SEN. B. MPOFU:  I object.

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF SENATE:  Yes. What is your

objection Hon. Senator.

HON. SEN. B. MPOFU:  My objection was noted yesterday as well.  My objection is that this Bill was amended by the National Assembly and it was brought to this House on 10th March, 2020.  We only received the copies at 12.46 p.m. on our tablets and therefore we could not go through the amended copy of the Bill in order for us to have meaningful input to it.  Thank you.

HON. ZIYAMBI:  Mr. President, the Bill was not amended extensively.  There was only one addition of a definition of a foreign organisation.  So the Hon. Member, with his indulgence, this was just a minor amendment and the Bill, Mr. President Sir, has been sitting with us for a long time and the only amendment that was effected on this was to include the definition of a foreign organisation.  I thank you.

THE HON. DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF SENATE:  Hon. Sen.

Mpofu, are you satisfied?

HON. SEN. B. MPOFU:  I am not satisfied because this is becoming systematic and because it is systematic, it makes this House a rubber stamping environment which I do not think is what we are here

for.

HON. ZIYAMBI:  Hon. President Sir, with all due respect, the legislative process, when a Bill is gazetted it is now open for Hon. Members to research and prepare whatever script they want to use to debate.  This Bill has followed all the due processes that are required by Parliament and it has been sitting with us for a long time.  I have asked the indulgence of the Hon. Senator to say perhaps if the National

Assembly had made extensive amendments, I would have agreed with him to say he needs more time, but the honest truth that we cannot escape, all of us, is this Bill has gone through all the necessary stages that are required for it to reach this stage and I seek your indulgence that the objection is not with any merit.  I thank you.

HON. B. MPOFU:  I note what the Minister has said.  Like I said, it is becoming systematic, possibly not only for this Bill but for other Bills.  What is the standard that we are following for Senate if a Bill is given to us on tablets at 12.46 p.m. and we start Senate at 2.30 p.m.  Honestly, let us be real.  There is no way we can have enough time to go through the amended Bill.  Remember an amended copy is a new copy.

Thank you.

THE HON. DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF SENATE:  Minister,

please approach the Chair.

Hon. Ziyambi approached the Chair.

HON. ZIYAMBI:  Thank you Mr. President Sir.  Mr. President, I will submit that on a technicality, I will defer it, but I must express my disappointment that this is not the first time.  It happened some time when I brought before the House the African Charter on Human and

People’s Rights for ratification and there was an uproar that I did not give Hon. Members sufficient time to have a look at it.  I indulged them and gave them time.  When I came back, nobody debated and I was a disappointed man.

I indicated that the contents, the nature of this Bill is such that the only amendment was inclusion of a definition and the Hon. Senator is labouring to say that he received it and could not read a definition because it was late.  However, I will indulge the Hon. Senators and give them what they want because that is what the Standing Orders say, but I am very disappointed the Hon. Senators are very untruthful – [HON. SENATORS:  Inaudible interjections.] -  Yes, it is very untruthful.  The

Hon. Senator was very untruthful to say – [HON. SENATORS:

Inaudible interjections.] -

THE HON. DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF SENATE:  Order,

order!

HON. ZIYAMBI:  He was untruthful to say he did not have sight of the Bill and I submit that let us proceed with the other business of the House.  I thank you.

MOTION

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

HON. ZIYAMBI:  Hon. President Sir, I move that we revert to

Order Number 10 on the Order Paper.

Motion put and agreed to.

MOTION

RATIFICATION OF THE JOINT CONVENTION ON THE SAFETY

OF SPENT FUEL MANAGEMENT AND THE SAFETY OF

RADIOACTIVE WASTE MANAGMENT

HON. ZIYAMBI:  Thank you Mr. President.  Mr. President, I rise to indicate:-

THAT WHEREAS section 327(2) of the Constitution of

Zimbabwe provides that any convention, treaty or agreement acceded to, concluded or executed by or under the authority of the President with one or more foreign states or governments or international organisations shall be subject to approval by Parliament;

WHEREAS the Joint Convention on the Safety of Spent Fuel

Management and on the Safety of Radioactive Waste Management, Joint Convention, was adopted on 5th September 1997, and opened for signature on 29 September 1997;

WHEREAS The Republic of Zimbabwe is not a signatory to the aforesaid Convention;

WHEREAS the Joint Convention entered into force on 18 June

2001;

 

WHEREAS Article 39 of the Joint Convention provides that the

Convention shall be open for accession by all States;

AND WHEREAS the Republic of Zimbabwe is desirous of becoming a Party to the Joint Convention;

NOW THEREFORE, in terms of section 327(2) of the Constitution of Zimbabwe, this House resolves that the aforesaid Convention be and is hereby approved.

Motion put and agreed to.

MOTION

RATIFICATION OF THE CONVENTION ON THE PHYSICAL

PROTECTION OF NUCLEAR MATERIAL AND NUCLEAR

FACILITIES

           THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE, LEGAL AND

PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (HON. ZIYAMBI): Thank you Mr.

President Sir.  Mr. President:

WHEREAS Section 327 (2) of the Constitution of Zimbabwe provides that any convention, treaty or agreement acceded to, concluded or executed by or under the authority of the President with one or more foreign states or governments or international organisations shall be subject to approval by Parliament;

 

WHEREAS the Convention On the Physical Protection of Nuclear

Material and Nuclear Facilities was adopted by the International Atomic

Energy Agency General Conference on the 26th of October 1979, in

Vienna, Austria and opened for signature at Vienna and New York on

3rd March, 1980 and entered into force on the 8th of February 1987;

WHEREAS the Republic of Zimbabwe has not signed the

Convention;

WHEREAS the Republic of Zimbabwe is desirous of becoming

party on the Convention to establish measures related to the prevention, detection and punishment of offenses relating to nuclear material;

WHEREAS the Republic of Zimbabwe is desirous of ratifying the aforesaid convention;

AND WHEREAS the entry into force of the aforesaid convention shall be conditional upon its ratification by member states in accordance with their constitutional procedures;

NOW THEREFORE, in terms of section 327(2)(a) of the Constitution of Zimbabwe, this House resolves that the aforesaid Convention be and is hereby approved.  I thank you Mr. President Sir.

Motion put and agreed to.

MOTION

RATIFICATION OF THE CONVENTION ON ASSISTANCE IN THE

CASE OF A NUCLEAR ACCIDENT OR RADIOLOGICAL

EMERGENCY

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE, LEGAL AND

PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (HON. ZIYAMBI): Thank you Mr.

President Sir.  Mr. President:

WHEREAS of Section 327 (2) (a) of the Constitution of Zimbabwe provides that any convention, treaty or agreement acceded to, concluded or executed by or executed by or under the authority of the President with one of more foreign states or governments or international organisations shall be subject to approval by Parliament;

 

WHEREAS the Convention on Assistance in the Case of a Nuclear

Accident or Radiological Emergency was adopted by the International Atomic Energy Agency General Conference at its special session, held on 24th to 26th September 1986, and opened for signature at Vienna on 26 September, 1986 and at New York on October 1986 and entered into force on 26th February 1987;

WHEREAS the Republic of Zimbabwe is desirous of becoming Party to the Convention to set out a framework for co-operation with other state parties and with the International Atomic Energy Agency to facilitate prompt assistance in the event of a nuclear accident or radiological emergency to minimise its consequences and to protect life, property and the environment from the effects of radioactive releases;   WHEREAS the Republic of Zimbabwe is desirous of ratifying the

Convention on Assistance in the Case of a Nuclear Accident or

Radiological Emergency;

 

AND WHEREAS the entry into force of the aforesaid Treaty shall be conditional upon its ratification by Member States in accordance with their constitutional procedures;

NOW, THEREFORE, in terms of section 327 (2) (a) of the

Constitution of Zimbabwe, this House resolves that the aforesaid Agreement be and is hereby approved for ratification.  I thank you Mr.

President Sir.

Motion put and agreed to.

MOTION

RATIFICATION OF THE ADDITIONAL PROTOCOL TO THE

COMPREHENSIVE SAFEGUARDS AGREEMENT

        THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE, LEGAL AND

PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (HON. ZIYAMBI): I move the motion standing in my name;

THAT WHEREAS section 327 (2) of the Constitution of

Zimbabwe provides that any convention, treaty or agreement acceded to, concluded or executed by or under the authority of the President with one or more foreign states or governments or international organisations shall be subject to approval by Parliament;

WHEREAS the Additional Protocol to the Comprehensive

Safeguards Agreement (Protocol) was approved by the International

Atomic Energy Agency Board of Governors in 1997;

 

WHEREAS the Republic of Zimbabwe is party to the Nonproliferation of Nuclear Weapons Treaty (NTP) but has not signed the

Additional Protocol; and

WHEREAS, Article 17 of the protocol provides that the protocol shall enter into force on the date on which the agency receives from Zimbabwe written notification that Zimbabwe’s statutory and/or constitutional requirements for entry into force have been met or upon signature by the representatives of Zimbabwe and the agency;

NOW THEREFORE, in terms of section 327 (2) (a) of the Constitution of Zimbabwe, this House resolves that the aforesaid Convention be and is hereby approved.

Motion put and agreed to.

MOTION

RATIFICATION OF THE CONVENTION ON EARLY

NOTIFICATION OF A NUCLEAR ACCIDENT

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE, LEGAL AND

PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (HON. ZIYAMBI): I move the

motion standing in my name;

THAT WHEREAS section 327 (2) (a) of the Constitution of Zimbabwe provides that any convention, treaty or agreement acceded to, concluded or executed by or under the authority of the President with one or more foreign states or governments or international organisations shall be subject to approval by Parliament;

WHEREAS the Convention on Early Notification of a Nuclear

Accident was adopted by the International Atomic Energy Agency General Conference at its special session, 24-26 September 1986, and opened for signature at Vienna on 26 September 1986 and at New York on 6 October 1986 and entered into force on the 27th October 1986;

WHEREAS Zimbabwe signed the Convention on the 26th of

September 1986;

WHEREAS the Republic of Zimbabwe is desirous of becoming part of the Convention to provide relevant information about nuclear accidents as early as possible in order that the transboundary radiological consequences can be minimised;

WHEREAS the Republic of Zimbabwe is desirous of ratifying the aforesaid convention;

AND WHEREAS the entry into force of the aforesaid convention shall be conditional upon its ratification by Member States in accordance with their constitutional procedures;

NOW THEREFORE, in terms of section 327 (2) (a) of the Constitution of Zimbabwe, this House resolves that the aforesaid Convention be and is hereby approved for ratification.

Motion put and agreed to.  

MOTION

ADJOURNMENT OF THE SENATE

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE, LEGAL AND

PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (HON. ZIYAMBI):  Thank you Mr.

President Sir, I want to thank the Hon. House for the work that we have done.

The Senate adjourned at Twenty Six minutes to Five o’clock p.m.

until Tuesday, 17th March, 2020.

 

 

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