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Tuesday, 19th February, 2013

The Senate met at Half-past Two

 o’clock p.m.


(MADAM PRESIDENT in the Chair)



  MADAM PRESIDENT:  May I remind hon. senators to switch

off their cell phones or to put them on silent.




  1. GONESE:  I move the motion standing in my name:

That the motion to restore the Public Order and Security Amendment Bill (H.B.11A, 2010) ,which was superseded by prorogation of the 4th session of the 7th Parliament be restored on the Order Paper at the stage at which it had reached in terms of Standing Order No. 43.


  1. GONESE:  Thank you Madam President, I have this motion

before this august Senate and the motion is simply for the restoration of a motion which was superseded by prorogation in the 4th session.

I would like to explain to hon. senators here present that at this point in time, we are not dealing with the Bill itself, but simply with a motion to restore the motion which we had in the 4th session to bring in a

Private Members Bill to amend the Public Order and Security Act (POSA).

In this circumstance, I would like to make it abundantly clear that at this point in time, we are not dealing with the substance but rather with the process.  What simply happened is that, in the 3rd session, the Second Reading of the Bill was not concluded and it lapsed in the 3rd session.  In the 4th session, I brought a motion to restore the Bill to the Order Paper at the stage at which it had reached.  That also lapsed due to prorogation because at that point in time, there had been indications that there was going to be some discussions regarding the substance.  I would therefore urge hon. senators to support the restoration for the simple reason that as a matter of procedure, this is a matter where we normally do not have debate.  I have simply tried to explain so that we are on the same level of understanding because others may have the perception that we are now discussing the Bill itself.  I just thought it important to try to explain so that we all have the same understanding.

Those who have got a lot to say about the procedure and so on, please hold your guns because we will come to that stage if and when the motion is actually restored.  I will therefore say to all senators present, from my experience as a legislator, normally for such motions, you do not even have debate. Generally speaking, you will simply find the mover for the motion simply saying that he or she wants the motion restored to the Order Paper.  Thereafter, as a matter of team, as I understand it, the legislators would simply accede to that request.  When we now deal with the merits, people can then talk about the substance or can say whatever they want.  I therefore move the motion and seek the support of all senators.

SENATOR MARAVA:  Thank you Madam President, I stand

here to second the restoration of this POSA Bill.  The lapsing of this Bill due to prorogation cannot be any problem to this Senate.  We are level headed and of course in our daily prayer here, which fortunately, you, Madam President lead us with, you always say it in a Godly manner that we have to consider all matters that come to this Senate.  In other words, you also say that is creation of the job for this Senate so I find no problem whatsoever, in having this Bill restored to the Order Paper.

Thank you Madam President.

SENATOR MUMVURI: Thank you very much Madam President.  Madam President, with all due respect, I stand to oppose what was said by the hon. Member from the House of Assembly, simply for the reason that, when this motion was withdrawn, it was in consultation with our leader of the House, one of them, Hon. Chinamasa.  Now, Hon. Gonese is coming back to restore the motion without consulting the same person with whom he consulted when he withdrew the motion.

So we are saying he should do the same, some of us remain guided by the other side, that we must get at least some guidance, if they have consulted the two of them, then we would agree to that.  Hence we remain guided by that.  So I am saying we are opposed to the restoration of the motion as it is now.  Thank you.

SENATOR MAKORE:  Thank you very much Madam President, I want to thank Hon. Gonese for requesting this motion to be restored back to the Order Paper.  My submission is that I do support that entirely, on the basis that some of you do not know exactly where this POSA itself came from historically.  We will debate it further, but for your knowledge, some time long ago; it was Law and Order Maintenance Act. This law has to be brought back and be debated again. I am of the opinion that it should be restored on the Order Paper.

I want to thank you so much Madam President, that you have accorded me this opportunity to enlighten this Senate, that there is nothing that stops us from dealing with issues as in the Parliament or in the Senate, which is why we are lawmakers.

SENATOR HUNGWE:  I want to first of all thank the mover of the motion Hon. Gonese but actually, Madam President; we are surprised how this motion has been coming to this hon. Senate, since 2010, and Senators objecting to it.  Senator Mumvuri has just mentioned the involvement of the Minister of Justice to this hon. senate and that it has been taken over by many events up to this hour.

The mover of the motion has warned us that we should not have our guns ready, but I would like to say our guns are getting loose because of that warning, because it is unusual for anything that is honourable to this Senate, for the people to be given notice about it.

The point is that we have rejected this motion before and we shall continue to reject it up to this hour and later.  We know the mover has said, “please do not worry about the content of the motion itself, but just accept that I am moving the restoration of the motion” and he knows very well that it is being objected to by this Senate.  It has been objected to, we are objecting it Madam Chair, thank you.

SENATOR MAKUNDE: Thank you Madam President, we are living in a house of co-existence, which is the Government of National Unity.  I have heard one speaker saying that the decision of this Senate or those of the House of Assembly are sometimes surpassed.   We are supposed to submit to some of these things and I am saying there is an example which has just passed by, the example of the COPAC Draft Constitution.  People were not agreeing and later on, it was referred to the Principals and the Principals gave a final say.

I also want to say this same thing, the Leader of this House Comrade Chinamasa and the mover of this motion agreed in this House, that they were going to refer most of these things to the Principals.  Today, of-course, we are not discussing about the substance but re-introducing this thing into this Senate, this means we are wasting resources just for the sake of debating, but if we are principled and we want to follow the directives that we were given by the Leader of the House, it means this thing should be discussed at another level, the level of Principals.  So I am opposing it, I am on the side of Senator

Mumvuri, I am opposing that the motion be re-instated in the House. Thank you

SENATOR GUTU: Thank you Madam President, I would like to start by thanking the mover of this motion, Hon. Gonese and also the seconder, Hon. Senator Marava and all the other hon. members who have given their submission, either in support of or against the attempt to have this motion back on the Order Paper.

Madam President, I just want to implore my fellow hon. members of this august Senate, the Upper House, which traditionally is supposed to be more humane, less confrontational and perhaps more understanding than the House of Assembly or the so called Lower House.  The issue is not to debate the merits and or de-merits of Hon. Gonese’s motion.  I think this is where we have to really understand,

that  all what the mover of the motion is saying is can I be kindly permitted to have this motion put back on the Order Paper.  Once that has been done, all members of this august Senate across the political divide will have an opportunity, if they so wish to debate the merits and demerits of the motion.  I believe this is the very essence of democracy particularly parliamentary democracy.

We should not make this House a rubber stamping Chamber because at the end of the day I would wonder why we fought during the time of elections to get an opportunity of coming to be a member of this august Senate.  I think it will defeat the whole purpose; the whole idea of having Parliament.  I am very mindful of Hon. Senator Makunde’s submission, I appreciate the force of his submission that when we had difficulties with the Constitution making process, the matter was referred to the Principals; who then managed to break the heights until we have the draft which was unanimously endorsed by the GNU.

I would like to believe, with due respect that the COPAC issue perhaps is fundamentally different from the present one because if we are going to say that we deal with this motion, the way we dealt with COPAC, that means we are usurping the importance and functions of this august Senate.  We are rendering this august Senate a eunuch, we are just eunuching it.  We are making it a rubber stamp, I would like to believe that no hon. member of this august House Madam President would like to be referred to as a Member of a Parliament that is a eunuch; powerless, toothless and just but a mere rubber stamp.

I would like to implore my colleagues across the divide; hon. members of this august Senate to appreciate that we are not going into the merits; it not given that Hon. Gonese’s motion will be adopted – if we all might know it would even pass this Senate but the very idea of encouraging parliamentary democracy would allow us to have the sense of allowing him to have his motion back.  When it is debated, it will be up to members of this august Senate to either adopt it or not.  If we are going to say we are quarrelling with the issue before we even look at the merits, I think we are missing the point with due respect.

We are talking more of the form and not the content, it is more of the superstructure rather than the infrastructure.  With due respect, I would like to persuade my colleagues across the political divide to give this Hon. Member of Parliament, Hon. Gonese  an opportunity to have his matter dealt with when the merits will be looked into.  If he succeeds good luck to him; if he does not, tough luck – that is the essence of parliamentary democracy.  With these few remarks Madam President, I would like thank you for giving me an opportunity to articulate my views.

SENATOR RUGARA: Thank you very much Madam President, I

would like to thank Hon. Gonese for bringing this motion here, for the second time.  I would also like to remind those of us who have lost memory that we did not debate it; therefore, the content of the matter was not even looked at.  This is a fact, I was here, a number of us were here and I do not know where the debate took place.

That is point number one, point number two is to say why should we be afraid of something that we do not know and have not seen.  Why should we be frightened of a scum cat; we all know what a scum cat is.  We call it a civet cat; the civet cat is supposed to be smelling bad, but if you have not seen it why would you not want to get to know it? What we are saying- I am only using this language to say why do we not allow this motion to come back and we take it head on?  Those who do not like it; they have their persuading reasons for not liking it; those who support it will support it in the way they best can.

I think just to reinforce what the previous speaker on this issue said was actually the essence of Parliament; Parliament is debate.  Parliament that does not debate is useless really.  It is not functioning; if we believe we are here to function, we should be prepared to debate, to look at issues not people.  It is not a question of Gonese or Chinamasa, it is the issue of POSA, that is what we want to see.

What kind of animal is this POSA? Is it so pleasant as to be loved or liked?  Some people love it but we do not need to love anything; we want to look at issues not personalities.  That is why this beautiful Chamber is here.  It is not like a mirror shop where we want to see ourselves- no, we want perhaps to hear ourselves.  Let us talk; let us debate and then we give value to this Senate.  I thank you Madam President for giving me this opportunity.

SENATOR DUBE:  Thank you Madam President.  The problem is we want this motion to be debated through Minister Chinamasa. I am saying I am very happy; I am one of those people who want the motion to be debated.  I know this is a fought for tatty to some of us and we want it be debated in this House.  We shall cross the bridge when we reach it, by that I mean after debating we shall find out the pros and cons of this animal which is called POSA.  We shall be debating its disadvantages and advantages.  Thereafter, if ever it means that we divide the Senate to have it passed we have to do that or it has to be referred to the Lower House.  From my own opinion I say let us have this restored on the Order Paper.

SENATOR MANDAVA:  Thank you Madam President, I also want

to join those who are against this motion being reintroduced.  I respect this august Senate.  It is made up of senior citizens who enjoy debates of a constructive nature and avoid controversial issues.  I would like to take cognisance of the fact that we are all senior citizens and perhaps our memory sometimes fails us.  However, in this instance I think we all remember that Minister of Justice and Legal Affairs, Hon. Chinamasa was in this Senate concerning this issue and after that the Motion was removed from the Order Paper.

For months we did not hear about it, why should we put it back now, is it that we enjoy debates and we have run out of ideas to come and debate?  I think from the time Hon. Chinamasa came to this Senate the motion was removed from the Order paper and we are saying today, it is not necessary for it to be reinstated into the Order paper.  It should either go back where it came from and be debated there, but with due respect, it is not fair that it be brought back.  Therefore, I am joining those who are against the motion being put back on the Order paper.  If it has been debated in the Lower House, it can go back to the Lower House.  Thank you Madam President.

SENATOR DETE: Thank you Madam President, I stand to strongly reject the restoration of the motion.  Thank you Madam President.

SENATOR HLALO: Madam President, thank you for giving me

this opportunity to say something about the re-introduction of this motion by Hon. Gonese.  I think there was a process which was not complete and Hon. Senator K. Dube had hit the nail on the head.  It was an effort which Hon. Gonese did to try and get POSA to be debated in this august Senate.  Hon. Gonese followed the process as required, it was debated in the Lower House and it has to come here for us to debate.

However, for some reason, I think there were some negotiations that it should not come through and as a result the process was not completed.  It seems as if whatever reason that made Hon. Gonese to withdraw did not work.  I do not think Hon. Gonese is someone who lacks direction.  Maybe the promises which he was given in order for him to withdraw the motion were not fulfilled.  As a result, he still has that opportunity to bring the motion to this august Senate.  We are killing the purpose for which this august Senate stands for.  We need to debate the motion and decide on whether the motion should be adopted or not, but there is a process which we should follow.  If we do not give him that opportunity to do that, then we are short-circuiting his wish in a bad manner.

For example, if people go to a football match and the other team decides not to come, normally the referees will give that team a decision called a ‘walk-over.’  Madam President, it seems we are not giving the hon. member that opportunity.  The process should be completed and the only way is to accept the motion and debate it so that we come up with a decision and due process will follow.  If someone says ‘can you hear me,’ there is something I want you to hear and then we respond by saying the Senate will not hear, why should it not hear?  It means that there is something wrong.  It looks like there are some people who are against the hearing of the motion whilst some are supporting it.  It becomes a problem, but it does not solve Hon. Gonese’s request on what this Senate should do.  I stand to support Hon. Gonese’s wish, we want to hear him and we also want to participate in this motion.  As such, Madam President, I would like us to give the hon. member that opportunity to put his motion before this Senate.  I thank you.

*SENATOR FEMAI: Thank you Madam President for affording me this opportunity to make my contribution.  I would like to congratulate Hon. Gonese and also support him in his quest to reinstate his motion on the Order paper.  I have made a few observations in this Senate.  In the first instance, I have heard other hon. senators saying that such cases should be given to the Principals.  In as far as I am concerned, there is happiness amongst the Principals, and there is peace.

That is the reason why on whatever motion they have, they do it diligently, speak with one voice and stating whatever they want in unison.

It is surprising to us that there is a division in this Senate.  Hon.

Gonese has the intention of returning his motion to this Senate where Parliament is a forum for such debates.  As I stand here, I do not even know the good side of this motion and I would like to be educated.  I do not know its merits and demerits, but if it is debated in this Senate, I will benefit from the contributions because I will be given the bright side and the dark side of the motion so that I make my decision.  How can we refute something which we have not seen?

Let me give you a parable, if you have two people carrying guns and they ask to shoot each other, the person whose gun has no bullets will never agree to such an arrangement.  Instead, that person would prefer a fist-fight because he knows that his gun is not loaded and will not be able to shoot back.  There is a song which was sung by one singer who said, ‘do not deny anything before you taste it.’  When you are given any food you should taste it first before saying it tastes bad.  How can you condemn some beer before you drink it for testing and therefore the other problem we have is that we have a whipping system.  We find Africans coming to suffer from things like BP because our elders were given sugar and tasted that it was nice and when the people tasted sugar and found out that it was nice, they were not given the other side of sugar, that it can lead to diabetes.  We are dying of this disease because we were told that it can kill us.  Therefore, we know that we do not have to rely on a whipping system but we know that we are coming from our constituencies where we were chosen to come and represent our constituencies.

During the election period, you campaign and people vote for you and therefore, we have to make our decisions because we are leaders.  Leaders do not just wait for the whipping system because we have different ideas and views.  I therefore encourage this House to debate so that we know the bad side and the good side of this motion because amongst the people who are debating, they will be looking at both sides and I make my honest and educated decision based on what has been debated in this Senate.  If you have been given a wife, do not deny her because if you deny being given such a wife, you know that there is something wrong.  If you turn the offer of a woman down, there is something you know about that woman to make you turn her down.

Thank you Madam President.

SENATOR CHITAKA:  When I came to this Senate and saw the Order Paper, using my own research, I thought it was going to be a very routine matter.  I was made to understand that tradition in a

Parliamentary democracy like ours is that such a motion is routine.  It should have passed within the first two seconds, but obviously, it appears that with our Parliamentary Democracy, we want to set new bench marks, new precedents, which in my opinion are rather sad and bad.  It pains me to watch this Senate being divided over a very trivial matter.  We should be divided on real issues.  We should not be divided on a trivial matter of simply restoring a motion on the Order Paper.  We should be divided on the substance of whatever we are going to debate.

Simply having this august Senate divided on the issue of just whether to debate or not, I think we have sunk very low.  We have pulled our democracy back.

I would like to refer to an issue that was referred by an hon. senator; COPAC and the intervention of the principals.  Yes, the COPAC process was assigned to certain people, us MPs included but the main players were the Select Committee.  How the Select Committee found each other was by confronting difficult issues and talking to each other.  They did not say because I do not like that thing, we will not talk about it; let us talk of something else.  When the difficult issues which could not be resolved were referred to the Principals, the Principals did not say we are going to decide for you.  They only unlocked the mouth, they threw it back and said go and find each other.  You do not find each other by turning your back and trying to pretend that the problem does not exist, like we are trying to do in this case.  We will not find each other.

This country was moving forward.  This Parliament in particular was moving very well forward.  We were actually the leaders as far as dialogue, the different parties and the people of Zimbabwe together, but we will not bring our people together if we shy away from simply putting a motion on the table back on the Order Paper.

This motion was never taken off the Order Paper, as some members have tried to make us believe.  The original motion lapsed; a motion was then introduced to restore it back on the Order Paper.  That motion lapsed and this is the same motion that Hon. Gonese is trying to get restored on the Order Paper.  How will it look?  The Lower House, whom we sometimes look at and say vapfanha avo, are not level headed.  They debated this issue; they did not shy away from it.  How is it going to look when this Senate then turns its back and says we will not talk about this one because we have difficulties?  What difficulties?

If the young people down there can debate these difficult issues, why are we shying away?  We are supposed to be the wiser of the two

Houses.  If we go back to our traditional way of things and justice, I do not think there is ever a case when a mambo will ever say ‘we do not talk about these issues in my dare, we do not talk about this because it is too difficult.  I will rule that these issues will not be brought’ because if we had done that our society would not have developed to where it is.  Now I have very strong traditional ways of doing things because no subject was taboo, everything was brought out in the open and debated.  So, what are we trying to achieve?  At the end of the day we will go there and beat ourselves on the chest and say ‘tavadya, we have blocked it’ but what have we achieved as the Senate, as the people of

Zimababwe.  We are going down in the History books and it will be said these wise old people were so scared, they did not know.  They were so scared they did not want to debate a very simple issue, to even put a debate on the table and then crush it one way or the other to show their wisdom.

The Principals did not suppress debate or say we do not talk about this because it is difficult, we do not want this, take it back to COPAC.  They confronted the difficult things.  Why Zimbabweans are where we are today in the GNU or wherever we are cooperating, it is because we have found each other by talking to each other.  So, I am saying let us continue to talk to each other.  If there is something good or bad about this Bill, it will come out but if we reject this request to put back the motion on the Order Paper, we are going to look very bad in the History books of Zimbabwe.  Thank you.

+SENATOR CHIMBUDZI:  Thank you Madam President for

affording me this opportunity to make my contribution on this debate.   Since everyone is talking about democracy I am also one of those people who are turning down the return of this motion into this Senate. Therefore, my voice is this motion should not be returned on the Order Paper, thank you Madam President.

  +SENATOR MTINGWENDE:  Thank you Madam President,

my colleagues in this House have debated and I thank the member who introduced this motion, that the motion of POSA be reintroduced in the House. I have risen to make my contribution on this motion where we find that Hon. Gonese wants to restore this Public and Order, Security Amendment Bill on to the Order Paper. So that we may debate so that if Hon. Gonese is lucky, the motion will be adopted. If he is unlucky, the motion will be rejected. Madam President, we are senior members. The Senate is made up of the elderly because what I know is, members who were elected into this House were members who were mature, who are 40 years and above and therefore these are mature people. Therefore, what I know about being in this House is that, we did not come to try our luck but we have come to make laws for peace, order and good governance of the country.

Therefore, if hon. Gonese simply wants this motion restored on the Order Paper so that he tries his luck, then I think Madam President, this motion was not on the Order Paper and it was not on this Paper and when it was removed from the Oder Paper, Hon. Gonese was in this House. Therefore, my request to Hon. Gonese is that, he should let this matter rest because we have many issues to debate. Thank you Madam President.

         MADAM PRESIDENT: Hon. Senator

SENATOR JACOB: Thank you Madam President, I also rise to make my contribution on the motion raised by hon. Gonese and I have been listening to debates made by my colleagues and I support them. I may quote Hon. Femai and Hon. Gutu who have said, when you are in this House, we are not just supposed to be rubber stamp. And therefore, you find Hon. Gonese from the lower House, has come to advise the upper House and what has been said by hon. Gonese. Do we have to follow what hon. Gonese says and what we are now going to see is, if we feel that we do not need POSA, it will be up to us as the august House to prove it that we need this law and we introduce it on our own.

We do not want to be mis-guided by somebody from the lower House.

SENATOR SINAMPANDE: Thank you Madam President for

giving me this opportunity for advising my fellow Senators concerning the restoration of this issue. It is only restoring it back to the Order Paper and then you will look into it. That is when you can say you do not need this, you do not need that. That is why this hon. Gonese is here.

So please Madam President, I beseech this hon. august Senate to accept the restoration of the POSA on the Order Paper I thank you.

SENATOR S. NCUBE: Thank you Madam President, I also want to support the motion that has been tabled by Hon. Gonese in this

Senate. I think this is a record. A lot of people read the Hansard. Hon. Gonese, people will hear that this POSA thing came to the Senate and it was thrown away. So we are happy that people read. We do not bother whether others have said no, we do not want it to be taken back to the Order Paper. It is a record people read, they will hear I want to support that this motion be put on the Order Paper. Thank you.

MADAM PRESIDENT: At this point may I just want to remind

hon. senators that this is not just a motion, it is a Bill which has already been passed by the House of Assembly.

SENATOR KATYAMAENZA: Thank you Madam President, I

rise to debate on the motion raised by Hon. Gonese. The motion was suspended and as a result, Hon. Gonese is also asking that this motion be re-introduced back in the Senate. When he brought it in the Senmate he had asked for permission. I remember when he came, this motion was introduced into this House and through the discussion with Hon.

Chinamasa, they looked at it and agreed.

What we now need to do, is go back to the Constitution so that when we study the Constitution, we will see the demerits and merits of this motion, because if you continue to debate this, we may find that this motion has already been brought into the new Constitution and therefore, we could be wasting time by debating something which is already in the new Constitution.

  1. GONESE: For today I will accept it proudly.

MADAM PRESIDENT: I should ask him to move?

  1. GONESE: I am simply going to respond because I believe that I have a right to reply to the debate.

MADAM PRESIDENT: Once you reply you have to move.

  1. GONESE: I know someone will move I appreciate that Madam President. I believe as the mover of the motion I will respond to the debate and thereafter raise a motion.

MADAM PRESIDENT: I keep calling you Senator because once you respond you are then going to move for either adoption or whatever.

  1. GONESE: I am cognisant of that process. Thank you very much Madam President, I have seen that this motion has generated a lot of debate, as they say Parliament is the theatre of all political activity and today is one such example. I want to thank all the senators who have contributed to the debate on the motion which I brought. I just want to clarify a few issues because it appears there are a lot of misconceptions.  The first one is that the motion or Bill was never withdrawn, I want to remind hon. senators that we actually had the Second Reading and there was a debate.  Thereafter, there were insinuations that negotiators might want to have a look at the amendments that I was proposing and possibly adopt them.

That was where the matter was.  There was never a stage where the Bill was withdrawn. Similarly, the motion that I brought in the last session, after some debate, there were certain sentiments which were expressed that some senators wanted to get guidance from Senator Chinamasa; at that point in time the debate was not concluded.   I want to clarify on those aspects, I will not respond to the individual submissions which were made by the various senators.  I want to say that at this point and time, let us be clear on one thing.  What I am saying is that, if the motion is restored, senators will be able to ventilate their views and say precisely what they feel about the Private Member’s

Bill.  Secondly, there are Senators who have made reference to the GPA;

I want to make it abundantly clear that this has nothing to do with the GPA.

We are all legislators and in terms of the Constitution of Zimbabwe, all Members of Parliament are entitled to bring in Bills in their private capacity and that is exactly what I have done.  That is why it is called a Private Member’s Bill.  It will be a sad day for fellow legislators, for senators who have been elected to represent people in this august Senate to stifle my attempts to bring in a matter which is of great concern to the majority of Zimbabweans.  This debate itself illustrates the point that this is a matter which is of great concern and very important for the people of Zimbabwe.

If the motion is restored, that is when I will then explain why we were not able to have the matter brought in through the GPA negotiators and why I have exercised my constitutional right as a member to try to have this august Senate to debate on the merits and come to a pronouncement which does not have to mirror that which happened in the House of Assembly.  All the senators will have an opportunity to ventilate the views of their constituencies and have their say on this particular motion.  For these reasons Madam President, I will implore that this is not a matter which should be taken on a partisan basis.  To colleagues who have opposed this and it is clear to me that they have not applied their minds that this is a time when we have got to put our political hats aside.

Let us look at this matter as Zimbabweans, he who will be able to say that by bringing this Bill, you are violating the GPA, you will have your say.  If you feel that POSA is the most beautiful animal in the world, you will also have your say.  If, as I believe, POSA is an ugly animal which needs to be amended so that it is better than what it is, then those people will also have their say.  It is not the end of the world that if we adopt this motion then we have acceded it to the Private

Member’s Bill, what we are simply doing is to go to the next stage.

It will be at that stage that everyone will be able to say what they think and feel about POSA.  With these few words Madam President, I would like to urge all members of this Senate to support the restoration of the motion to the Order Paper.

SENATOR CHITAKA:  Madam President, I move that the

Senate be divided.

Bells rung

Senate Divided.

MADAM PRESIDENT:  The question upon which the Senate is dividing is the motion by Hon. Gonese to restore the Public Order and Security Amendment Bill (H.B.11A, 2010), which was superseded by prorogation of the 4th session of the 7th Parliament and the question is, that it be restored on the Order Paper at the stage at which it had reached in terms of Standing Order No. 43.

SENATOR RUGARA:  Madam President, I just want to be clear.

If someone does not feel like casting the vote, are they not allowed to be neutral?

MADAM PRESIDENT:  They should have walked out when the

bells were ringing.

          Ayes – 16 – Chabuka K.; Dube k.; Femai.; Gutu O.;Hlalo M.M.;

Khumalo D.;Makamure E.K.;Makore.; Masaba.; Muzerengwa T.S.; Ncube S.; Rugara K.; Sibanda A.; Sinampande.

         Tellers: Marava M. and Chitaka P.

                    Noes – 28 – Chibagu G.; Chiduku R.M.; Chimbudzi A.;Chisunga;

Chitanga; Dete A.A; Gampu I.V.; Hungwe J.D.; Jacob E.; Katyamaenza

V.; Mabhiza G.; Mabika J.T; Makunde T.;Manyeruke J.;

Masendu;Mbambo L.;Mtshane L.K.; Mtingwende T.; MuchenjeV.;Musarurwa E.M.; Nebiri.;Nembire;Ngungumbane; Ntabeni;Nyamukoho;Shana N.Z.J.

Tellers Mumvuri D.D.E and Mandaba M.I.N

MADAM PRESIDENT: Order hon. senators. Everyone who is in this Chamber is a Senator by law, so they are free to vote either way they feel like.

Senate resumed.

Motion put and negative.



Second Order read: Adjourned debate on motion in reply to the

Presidential Speech.

Question again proposed.


AFFAIRS: I move that the debate do now adjourn.

Motion put and agreed to.

Debate to resume: Wednesday, 20th February, 2013.




Third Order read: Adjourned debate on motion of the Tragic and

Untimely death of Hon. Vice President John Landa Nkomo.

Question again proposed.


AFFAIRS (MR. GUTU): I move that the debate do now adjourn.

Motion put and agreed to.

Debate to resume: Wednesday, 20th February, 2013.


LEGAL AFFAIRS, the Senate adjourned Four O’clock p.m.








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