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SENATE HANSARD 31 October 2018 28-14


Wednesday, 31st October, 2018

The Senate met at Half-past Two o’clock p. m.







the Senate that all Members of Parliament from Harare, Mashonaland

Central, Mashonaland East, Mashonaland West and Manicaland should confirm their flights to the 2018 Annual Pre-Budget Seminar to be held from 7th to 11th November 2018, at Holiday Inn, Bulawayo with Public Relations Officers at the Members Dining Hall by end of day.



First Order read: Adjourned debate on motion in reply to the Presidential Speech.

Question again proposed.

HON. SEN. MUZENDA: I move that the debate be adjourned.

HON. SEN. MOHADI: I second.

Motion put and agreed to.

Debate to resume: Thursday, 1st November, 2018.



Second Order read: Adjourned debate on motion on the call for devolution.

Question again proposed.

HON. SEN. SHOKO: Thank you Madam President for allowing me to contribute on this motion.  On the 16th of March 2013, this country went to vote for the Constitution that we have which is called

Constitution Number 21.  As you know, we had another Constitution which was called the Lancaster House Constitution, the one I am talking about is the one which we voted for.  The problem that we have in this country is not implementing what the Constitution states, which in essence is the guiding document that we must follow.  I want to steal some words from the Hon. Speaker which he said three times.  He said,

‘the problem that we have in this country is inertia, the problem that we have in this country is inertia, the problem that we have in this country is inertia.’ What he simply meant is that we do initiate things but we do not implement, we know about things but we do not do them.  I was happy that Madam President was also there to listen to the Hon. Speaker talking about that.  I believe Madam President does not have inertia.

Havana izvozvo vanoita basa ipapo ipapo. 

When we went for elections…

An Hon. Senator having passed between the Hon. Senator speaking and the Chair.


Hon. Member, you may use this other way.

HON. SEN. SHOKO: Thank you Madam President. Before we went for elections, remember we closed this House, some of us were in this House, we were told to go and campaign. What I know is that the two political parties that are in this House stood up and said that devolution is for us.  Sometimes I get confused when the other side does not talk about this thing.  When they were campaigning they were talking devolution – [HON. SENATORS:  Inaudible interjections] - I wanted protection but I realise …


for protection but maybe to protect that other side you are talking about because this is not the end of the debate.  Maybe they are still coming in to debate on that motion.

HON. SEN. SHOKO: Thank you Madam President, that is why I said you do not have inertia, you do it there and there. I am simply saying, Madam President, when we went for elections the two major parties and the parties that are represented in this House, they went out and talked about devolution and also made sure that they have got a representative in the provincial councils that we are talking about.  We already have representatives, but the problem that we have got is that we are being told to say, look we are going to put an Act and from rumous that I pick up or from talk of the corridors, I am hearing that might be in December and in many instances in December, Madam President, tinenge takuvhara.


talk about rumours in the House.

HON. SEN. SHOKO: Okay Madam President, yes but sometimes

it helps because in English we say, there is no smoke without fire.


have you seen people fighting because of rumours?

HON. SEN. SHOKO:  Thank you very much.  I will take your advice.  So Madam President, it then boggles the mind why we are not implementing devolution because I am saying both parties that are in this House already have got representatives that are sitting, that are waiting.  We have already increased the anxiety of those people because they will not work and even the population that they are representing in

Mashonaland Central, Mashonaland East, Mashonaland West and in Matebeleland are eager.

Madam President, I can explain it this way - last week I went out to Mashonaland Central, in particular Mt. Darwin.  I was accompanying the Budget and Finance Committee.  When we were there, the people were saying listen, you people do the budget in Harare and when you have done the budgets, they do not come here.  We do not have those budgets here.  Look at the furniture.  We were in a vocational training classroom.  The furniture is completely destroyed.  So, they were saying look - if you have devolution you will find that we are able to tell you that this bridge needs to be dealt with, but presently hanzi murikuHarare murikukolisa.  That is what they are saying.

So, I realised that I had not moved around the country.  I had only gone to about four provinces and these people were talking about devolution, but then when I went to Mashonaland Central I thought they were not going to talk about devolution.  I said it means to say everyone wants devolution.  They said if you bring devolution to us here, mbavha tichadziona because presently they are not seeing the thieves.  Mbavha dzakawanda kuHarare.  So, that is what I picked up in Mashonaland Central.  They are saying that there are things that were promised to say we are going to do this, we are going to do that, but those things have not been done.

Madam President, when I was in that group we were in contact with what we called Team B.  Team B was doing Midlands and the whole of Matabeleland.  I am talking about north and south.  They went to a small place called Gwanda.  They got there and started talking about the budget and this is what they were told.  They were told hamuende.  We must take you to the bridge which you promised you were going to sort out.  Look at that.  It is not good.  So, it means let us give these powers to the people on the ground.  It will help us.  Some of us want to stay in Parliament with no worries because I am at central Government level. So whenever I am being asked in Bulawayo, I will tell them look, your people are here; deal with them isusu takupai mari.  That is what we will do.  So, why are we afraid of devolution?  Devolution is the best thing that we can have.

Madam President, there are countries that are very successful.  I will give examples of Africa, Europe and also the Americas.  In Africa here we have got our neighbour South Africa.  Their powers are devolved.  In Nigeria, we have devolution.  You have got devolution that is done at a particular county.  In Europe, there is Belgium and Spain.  Spain has got 17.  Belgium is also devolved, so why are we afraid of devolution?  Devolution has got a lot of advantages, Madam President.

I will not have done any good if I do not define devolution in this House because sometimes we talk about these jaw-breakers when some people do not understand what it means.  That is the problem that we might have.  My teacher used to teach me English and then sometimes I would get lost, but if he defines I would understand what he means.

Devolution, Madam President, is a political and economic empowerment process.  You are simply empowering the people that are in those communities.  You are saying here is a budget, you know the things that you want, you know the bridges that you want to build, you can get money from this side and you can get some money from that side and from that side and they do their things.  What we then do ourselves is to go and supervise and see what they do.  Mbavha dzakataurwa kuMashonaland Central dzinosungwa because they know them down there.  They will arrest them.

So, Madam President, this is very simple.  This means central government will transfer the following into the provincial councils – decision making, finance, management and service delivery.  Presently, we have got problems in the small towns that we are talking about.  We have got problems in that if you look at the Constitution, it says

Government must pay 5% to the councils, but I believe from 1995 or 2000 Government has not paid anything to the councils, which brings problems to ourselves.  If you devolve powers to these people, they are able to collect money from the local communities and then we can come in and chip in and you will see that you have empowered the people because they are able to do what they have decided to do which is very important.  It is very good for us and I think we need to look at that.

Devolution also promotes democracy, accountability, it fosters national unity, and it recognises the right of communities to manage their own affairs.  The communities are able to say this is what we want.

Now, the problem that we have got presently because we have got centralised Government is that Mr. Shoko here, if he loses his birth certificate in Bulawayo he must come to Makombe building to get a birth certificate. If Mr. Shoko wants to get a liquor licence, he must come to another building in Harare.  He is coming from Bulawayo, 438 km and with the bureaucracy that we have got, it will take two years to get that licence.  So, I will be travelling every month to come and get a liquor licence, a thing that should be done in Bulawayo, Hwange or Bindura.  That is simple and straightforward, so why are we running away from that.  That is very important Madam President.  This House must recognize that and implement what they talked about.  I said when we went for elections, it was us, the other people and everyone in this House who stood up and said we are giving you devolution, so let us give them devolution because it helps everyone.

Madam President, there is an author called Morgan who said devolution will protect and promote the interests of marginalised communities.  In this country, you hear communities complaining, when I got to Kariba someone was telling me that the people that are working here all come from Masvingo and Mashonaland Central.  We do not have our own children working here. If we devolve, then we are not going to be accused of favouritism because the people working there will be their people and they will be acceptable to them.  So, it is very important Madam President that when we talk about devolution we should look at it in a wider way.  Let us look at it as an issue that will help the communities where we come from.

Communities complain that in our particular areas we have got minerals.  I heard someone saying in Mutoko where they come from, there is granite.  The stones are being taken away and dzimba dzirikudhuurwa but they are seeing no improvement.  The same applies to the people in all the other provinces.  So if we agree to implement the Constitution as it stands we will be able to have people that are innovative.  The officials and politicians will become innovative – why?  This is because they are staying in the communities and know what the communities need.  They are able to identify the things that the communities must have.  This can only be achieved if we devolve and follow our Constitution that says devolution must be there.

*HON. SEN. MOEKETSI:  Thank you Madam President for giving me this opportunity to make my contribution on the motion on devolution.  Firstly I would like to congratulate you for being elected to the post you are occupying now.  Let me also congratulate my president, Chamisa who made me to be present here today.  Now going into the matter that I stood up for, as you can see Madam President as far as I know we are the upper House in terms of the legal issues.  I believe that we should attend to the devolution issue and finalise it.  Last week we went on tour.  We were in Chinotimba hall in Victoria Falls and we were asked whether it was only in Harare that you find all the educated people because they can steal from other people.


Members, I am appealing to you as Hon Members not to use your cellphones.  I do not want to name you but you have to honour yourself.

HON. SEN. TIMVEOS: On a point of order Madam President.  You mentioned that we should not be on our cellphones.  I have notes on my phone and I want to debate or write down something


debate and also go through our Standing Rules and Orders and see whether we are allowed to do so.  I can see from this high chair some people trying to hide and use their phones.

*HON. SEN MOEKETSI:  One speaker wanted us to visit just two places in that area.  He said he moves around schools and hospitals and he wanted us to go to a place where there are two schools.  He said in that particular school there is not even a drop of medication.  So when we speak of devolution the intention is for us to stand for ourselves and do what is best for us, but you see us as people who are not useful.  We got to another place where we were asked what we wanted since we implemented the 2% tax without consulting them.  They said why do you not just go ahead and do what you normally do because we are not people in your eyes.

Even the chiefs in our areas have lost their respect because of the issue of devolution.  They are just chiefs in name but that power and respect is no longer there because people think they are not representing their interests.  When we got to Kwekwe people said we told you about devolution and that is what we want you to implement.  They said we were failing to implement devolution because we wanted to continue stealing.  Even those who are not thieves are being grouped in the same category, so let us put our heads together on this issue of devolution as the Senate. We got to Hwange and were advised that there is only one hospital that belongs to a mine in that area. They said you come here to take our coal and sell, yet we do not get any returns in that as a community where the resources are extracted and further  asked where that money was going? Yes you send us for public hearing but sometimes we are shy when we get to those communities. It is sometimes very embarrassing to be seated in front of people in a hall yet we would not have convincing answers to some of the questions.

When we got to Gwanda we could not do anything and we had to go back to Bulawayo to sleep. They said they had reported to

Government that their bridge had broken down in 1980 but nothing has been done to date. So they wanted us to go and see that bridge through which parents and children could not cross to other areas whenever there is a flood in that area. They said if we did not want to go and see that bridge, they were going to close the gate so that there had to be no meeting. That generally points to the fact that at the end of the day, because these portfolio committees will have been advertised in advance, we may end up arriving there to find people already armed against us. Therefore please let us put our heads together on the matter of devolution.

In Hwange they said there were certain leaders who were taking people’s names on the promise that those people would be included in the Provincial Councils as members, yet there is a feeling that those names are being abused to extort money from Government by the same people who took those names. This is a very important matter Madam President. When we are seated here it sometimes appears as if devolution is a minor thing, yet it is a very important issue. As we are in here, there are mines which are closing and the people there are saying if they are allowed to run their own affairs, they might be talking otherwise and they would be aware of the truth whether Government has money or


Communities’ views are that Government is abusing resources and therefore, the local communities cannot believe that Government has no money. I just decided to say this Madam President so that the House is clear on the matter of devolution. That is important because when we debate on this issue, all Hon. Senators should be in support of this motion. Madam President Traditional Leaders in this House have lost their respect in their communities because of this issue, yet when they come to this House they remain quiet. They should help by supporting this matter Madam President – [HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.]-.


Senator. We are not allowed to force another Member to debate. If you have any matters pertaining to any other Member, they should be raised through the Chair.

*HON. SEN. MOEKETSI Thank you Madam President. I was just reminding them. Thank you.

HON. SEN. MWONZORA: I move that the debate be now


HON. SEN. KOMICHI: I second.

Motion put and agreed to.

Debate to resume: Thursday, 31 October, 2018.



Third Order read: Adjourned debate on motion on the cash situation in the country.

Question again proposed.

HON. SEN. TIMVEOS: Thank you Madam President for giving

me this opportunity to add my voice and I also want to say thanks to the mover of the motion Hon. Sen. Shoko. This is a very important motion. Mr. President the motion is saying the Executive of the Government must solve the cash crisis. The motion is saying the bond note is equal to the United States dollar and the nation is saying the bond note needs to be lifted. Mr. President we have to be truthful and we are the Upper House, which is why for one to be a Senator, one has to be 40 years and above. It means that we really need to think and be realistic. Mr. President it pains me as a Senator to get a salary of US$1 300 yet I cannot get the money from the banks. When I try to change it into United States dollars I got only US$350 yet the Minister can still say the bond note is equal to the United States dollar at a ratio of 1:1. This is impossible.

Mr. President the other day I had US$20 and I wanted to investigate the people who are selling this money on the streets. I said please change this money and I got $60 bond notes. I said to them do you guys know that this is a crime but the guy started laughing and said but Madam, looking at what I am like this, I am actually hungry right now and do you think I can actually go to the Reserve Bank of Zimbabwe and get some cash on my own. We get the money from those guys who are there and they are the people who are giving us the money to sell because they are making some profits.

He went on to say it is actually a joke to say that you are going to arrest us. He said, “how can I get into the Reserve Bank of Zimbabwe given the security there and, how can I get money from there?” He said, “we will continue to get the money supplied to us every day here and we are going to sell the money.” It is time Mr. President of this country to actually say the truth that as a Government we are failing and as long as we are not people centered we are always going to make our people


I am going Mr. President to procurement of essential goods; well, it is okay, the Executive decided to say it is now a free for all but can you imagine Mr. President to say you own a bakery, you make bread and you bought 20 KGs of flour and maybe it was for $50 then you sell bread

and you make $20.  Really, are you going to make that bread?  You will not make that bread because you have to recover your money and then when you go back to buy that flour, the flour is now selling at $150.  Does it really make sense?  What makes sense? It is time to ask ourselves what makes sense.  It is time for Government to really think because we cannot carry on and lie to the people of Zimbabwe to say a US dollar is equal to a bond and it is one to one – it is not and it will never be until we decide that we now want to work.

Mr. President, the motion goes on to say, we are appealing to Government to please solve this crisis but I then come back again to say, how can the Government solve this crisis when already we have so many scandals.  We have the Reserve Bank of Zimbabwe (RBZ) scandal and we do not have even one person arrested.  Instead, Government iri kuputika semaputi.  The other one says this one is guilty and the other one says he is not and the other one says this.  What exactly is the truth?  Why do we give one person such a huge responsibility to say this one person is going to be the one who is going to supply fuel – Queen Bee Tagwireyi.

How do we solve the problems at NOCZIM, ZIMRA, ZESA?  In the last Parliament, we were shown a little hut that was built by Chivayo in Gwanda there after he charged ZESA huge sums of money but today he is out there walking freely.

How do we solve this cash crisis?  The Government has a lot to ask themselves?  Mr. President, who controls foreign currency in this country because it looks like the foreign currency belongs to individuals.  Somebody goes to the bank, to the RBZ, takes a million dollars, they pretend like they are crossing the borders, they come back and sell it on the street, they make money and they go back to the Reserve Bank with $100 million that they have taken in bond.  What have we done as a country and these individuals are known.  As long as we do not read the riot act, then we are doing nothing.  As it is right now, it looks like we are just here to rubber stamp.

The Government Ministers are also there and they have somebody who is bigger than them who controls everything.  So really, what can we decide as Parliament? We have a mandate to represent the people here.  Yesterday you heard Dr. Mavetera talking here that people are dying and we are guilty of killing people as long as we do not stand up and say no to the Minister of Finance and Economic Development - as long as we do not say no to 2%.

You have heard the Hon. Members and Senators say that it is embarrassing.  The chiefs went on a fact finding mission on this budget and they were embarrassed, they were locked in and insulted as if you are not a father in your own house and as if you are not a mother in your own house.  We deserve respect, we are called Hon. Members but when you go out there, are we really honourable?  Are we really standing up; for the people?  We are not because there are bigger cartels in Zimbabwe that are controlling the market and controlling us and we are afraid that if we speak out, maybe I will not get a car or this.

Surely, I want to look at those who have died.  Are you buried driving a Mercedes Benz – it is left behind?  Are you buried with all that money that you accumulate - it is left behind?  Surely, you build a 50bedroomed house and you do not even want visitors to come there because you are a big kahuna and you think you are building the country.  Even Smith had a four bed roomed house.  So, why is it that tazowana kuzvitonga kuzere and you think kuzvitonga kuzere is building a 50-bedroomed house and you do not even see the bedrooms – chikwambo here kana kuti zvii zviri imomo?

Mr. President, this issue is not a joke and it needs us to self introspect.  Where is our ubunthu/hunhu hwedu, kunzwirana tsitsi to say if your neighbour is starving ...


Order Hon. Member, stick to one language please.

*HON. SEN. TIMVEOS:  Thank you Mr. President, I will try my


Mr. President, my heart bleeds – I am a Senator for Midlands and I do not know Hon. Members if you are happy with your salary?  Hon. Members, this is embarrassing.  People are getting paid out there and I believe the Government has to look at this.  When I was debating on the devolution, I said it that the Chinese are staying in Zvishavane, I see them in Zvishavane where I stay.  The only way to fix this issue is to say, are they paying tax as well?  If the Government/Treasury is getting money from these Chinese, how much is it?  How do you measure the chrome that is going out of this country and how do you measure the gold that is going out of the country?


your time is about to expire.

HON. SEN. TIMVEOS:  I am wrapping up Mr. President.  How do you measure the platinum that is getting out of this country?  We are the richest country in the world with bag managers and it is time we self introspect and think of our people.  Self accumulation will never pay.  I thank you Mr. President.

*HON. SEN. RWAMBIWA:  Thank you Mr. Chairman.


order.  I am not Chairman.

*HON. SEN. RWAMBIWA:  Thank you Mr. President.  Firstly, I would like to thank my President Mr. Chamisa who made it possible for me to be here and secondly, the people of Masvingo Province and lastly, I thank myself for having made it here.  I am seriously concerned about the current cash crisis, which I deem to be a very serious issue.  Money is the mainstay of all the things in the country.  Without money, Zimbabwe cannot go anywhere despite being a rich country.  We are experiencing a cash crisis because there are some cash barons who are stashing the money away and using it for their own selfish gains.

Zimbabwe is suffering at the moment but during the campaign period, the country was awash with money, to buy beer and cigarettes.  We once heard the former President Mr. R. G. Mugabe saying that there are some people who had stolen the money – a lot of money for that matter.  There was also a list of people who were implicated in the externalisation of US dollars and that was the last we heard about it since nothing tangible was ever done to reach finality on that issue.   The money was never brought back into the country. Maybe, it ended up with the banks but I do not know.  On the other hand, I wonder if it is the same US dollars that are now awash on the streets. On the other hand, I wonder if it is the same US dollars that are now awash on the streets.  I do not know how the money in Zimbabwe is only found in the road and where it is coming from remains a mystery.  This is the money that will drive for our economic recovery; we should not hide it in our inner pockets for this will spell poverty for Zimbabwe.

On the 2% tax which was imposed by those who are in authority to do so, as leadership, are we being considerate?  For instance, I may employ someone as a maid in my home and I pay $20 per month in return for the work done and a 2% tax is deducted from that amount. What does that mean? – [HON. SENATORS: Hear, hear.] – Let us amend that issue so that we become good leaders who come from the constituents who mandate us to work according to their wishes.

The current situation is that there are no drugs in hospitals, the only things that are there are ARVs and condoms. There is nothing else available in the hospitals, which shows that we are now an abnormal people that thrives on allowing men to go and enjoy themselves with women at beer drinks.  As people’s representatives, we should come up with measures that quickly redress these anomalies.  During our consultations, the same members of the public bemoaned the demand for payment of drugs in US$, which is not easily accessible to the ordinary man and woman – [HON. SENATORS: Hear, hear.] – Drugs are now very expensive.  We have people that suffer from chronic diseases who require medication on a daily basis.  If they are to buy the medicine at $80 bond notes or US$35, where is the ordinary man going to acquire these unrealistic amounts from.  Our economy can only be developed from people who think positively.  If a couple does not plan properly, there is no way that their family can be successful.  I thank you Mr.


*HON. SEN. CHINAKE: I thank you Hon. President for giving me the opportunity to debate on the issue of cash being debated here.  I would like to thank my President, Mr. Chamisa who made it possible for me to be here – [HON. SENATORS: Hear, hear.] – I would also like to thank my constituents in Mashonaland West who made it possible for me to be here in the Senate.

Mr. President, you have heard people debating so much on the issue of cash crisis in this House.  The issue of cash crisis is not happening for the first time and I do not know where we are heading when this keeps repeating itself.  During 2008/9 we had a cash crisis.  I was employed during that period Hon. President.  When we received our salaries, we were allowed to withdraw $200 out of a $1000 or $500 depending on the amount you earned. It was the same month in month out and I do not know where we will get the balance of money that we left at the bank.  If there were thieves who stole our moneys, when are they going to be prosecuted?  This was my money which I worked for and was supposed to get but to date, I have not received it.

As we speak Hon. President, there are thieves who stole people’s monies but they are scot-free.  The scenario is back again, that if you visit the bank, there are queues and people are not doing productive work anymore queuing for cash at the banks.  I do not know where they will get their next salary when they spend most of their time at the bank.  I am just registering my concern Hon. President.  This means that some people are earning money whilst they are not being productive as they spend most of their time queuing for money at the bank.

If we ask why this is happening, the reason given is that we are under sanctions.  I do not know where the sanction is here.  If someone is at home and fails to work, can they blame their neighbour when hunger strikes?  One must simply till their land and work hard in order to feed their families.  The issue of cash is a problem in our economy, I am pleading with you that this be rectified.  If you have no cattle and you borrow when you need to use them, that home is as good as dead – [HON. SENATORS: Hear, hear.] – If you borrow a suit in order to attend a wedding, you are as good as dead.

We do not have our own money in this country Hon. President, we have other countries’ currency which we are using and that is how dead our country is – [HON. SENATORS: Hear, hear.] – I request that this issue be rectified; we are representatives of people who send us to present their grievances.  We wish our Government could heed to our calls and do something concerning this issue so that we can have our own currency that we work with here rather than continue to beg money from others.

Everywhere we go without our own money, we are not well

received.  If we board a flight to other countries, they look at us as beggars who would have visited for the purposes of borrowing money – [HON. SENATORS: Hear, hear.] – Hon. President, we will not survive on borrowing, we survive on hard work in our own country.  We should thrive to open up our industries so that the economy begins to tick and we stop borrowing money.  We have a lot of resources like minerals in this country which give us earnings in foreign currency – [HON.

SENATORS: Hear, hear.] – The issues we are debating here should be taken seriously and we will prosper and stop grieving.  However, if we continue to allow foreigners to come and exploit our wealth and then we follow them to beg for money, we are not going anywhere.  With these few words, I thank you.

HON. SEN. SHOKO: Thank you Mr. President, I move that the debate do now adjourn.

HON. SEN. TIMVEOS: I second.

Motion put and agreed to.

Debate to resume: Thursday, 1st November, 2018.



Fourth Order read: Adjourned debate on motion on National Drug Policy and legislative framework to effectively regulate drug use.

Question again proposed.

HON. SEN. TIMVEOS: I move that the debate do now adjourn.

HON. SEN. CHABUKA: I second.

Motion put and agreed to.

Debate to resume: Thursday, 1st November, 2018.



Fifth Order read: Adjourned debate on motion on finding solutions to challenges associated with vending.

Question again proposed.

HON. SEN. CHABUKA: Mr. President, I move that the debate do now adjourn.

HON. SEN. S. NCUBE: I second.

Motion put and agreed to.

Debate to resume: Thursday, 1st November, 2018.

On the motion of HON. SEN. MUZENDA, seconded by HON.

SEN. MOHADI, the House adjourned at Twenty-Seven Minutes to Four o’clock p.m.


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