PARLIAMENT OF ZIMBABWE
Wednesday 27th September, 2017
The Senate met at Half-past Two o’clock p.m.
PRAYERS
(THE HON. PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE in the Chair)
MOTION
PRESIDENTIAL SPEECH: DEBATE ON ADDRESS
First Order read: Adjourned debate on motion in reply to the
Presidential Speech.
Question again proposed.
HON. SEN. MASHAVAKURE: Thank you Madam President for
giving me this opportunity to contribute a few ideas to the motion raised by Hon. Sen. Chief Charumbira and seconded by Hon. Sen. Chief
Mtshane. My presentation on the President’s Speech is drawn first from the issue of aligning the rest of the laws of this country to the Constitution. According to his speech, there are about 30 such laws which are outstanding which need to be aligned to the Constitution. My hope is that one of those 30 is the Disabled Persons Act of 1992. Last year, the Ministry responsible, which is the Ministry of Public Service and Social Welfare carried out extensive consultations throughout the country and talked to various stakeholders and interested groups but up to now that piece of legislation has not come to the two august Houses of Parliament for consideration. I hope in this last final session, our last
Fifth Session of the Eighth Parliament of Zimbabwe. The Ministry of
Public Service, Labour and Social Welfare will bring the Bill to Parliament.
Secondly is the law of child justice and the marriage laws act which are supposed to be brought to Parliament in the last session of this Parliament. I sincerely hope that the drafters of those laws will also make sure that 18 year o majority also includes the medical side of things or hospitals. I understand that some hospitals, have different clarifications of who is the child going up to 12 years and others up to nine years for the purpose of charging fees. Anybody who is above those ages is then treated as an adult for the purpose of paying and yet we also know that when it comes to issues of marriage one of the most powerful or compelling ideas that they make people believe, is that children go up to 18 years. In terms of marriage, the medical evidence given by our specialists tell us that at a certain age especially our girls are physically not ready to be mothers. In other words their own medical evidence in hospitals tell us that children are people who are beyond 12 years – but for the purposes of payment, I understand some of them will tell us that children are only up to nine years or 12 years. I think that can be sorted out with those pieces of legislation that are going to come to this House.
I also believe as I said before in other debates, that when these two laws come to Parliament, they will be devoid of the concept or the idea of consensual sex which is supposed to be authorised to take place before the age of 18. In other words, there is a difference between marriage and consensual sex but in the rural areas where I come from, the two are not different. I believe that in the rest of the country, a lot of people will not accept that you can sleep around with their children as long as you can prove that they have consented and they are not yet 18.
I hope our lawyers will not include that strange concept in our laws.
The next thing is on the Prisons and Correctional Services. My view is that it is good to also put special emphasis on the correctional aspect. I say that because I think that in taking the correctional approach, we should also consider issues of restoration or restorative justice and compensation and this would most certainly include our traditional leaders – the chiefs and others who are very skilled in those issues where if you commit a certain wrong against me, they know how to charge for me and for their own courts so that next time you will not do it. Just taking people to prison to enjoy the hospitability of the State for two or three years and then come back to continue the old practices that you are used to is not enough.
So, we have to make people feel the pain of compensating somebody whom they have wronged and I think that when the law on the Prisons and Correctional Services is finally brought here, it will also include aspects of restorative justice so that people are not just taken to courts to fill up our courts. Actually, they say that our courts are overstaffed in terms of inmates. This means that the State is paying a lot of money for the upkeep of people who should have paid those that they wronged. Actually, if they are supposed to go to prison, I think that they should also be forced to pay up before they enter the prison so that when they come back, even their relatives will remind them not to do it again, tarisa mombe dzakaenda idzi.
Then on the issue of the Teaching Professions Council – I think that it is a welcome move. I hear that some people want to link it to the abuse of children, especially girls in schools and so forth. I think it is one aspect but there are a lot of things that can be dealt with by the Teaching Professions Council. A lot of things that have been debated in the last few years are that of leave, conditions of service and how people become teachers. Is it anybody who has failed to get a job who can become a teacher? I still remember one of these days when I was at a certain school where some people were discussing.
The previous day in the news, it had been said that some people had been temporary or relief teachers for so long that it was now necessary to make them a priority when colleges take students for training in their next intake. Somebody was saying, it was just a sign that these people had nowhere else to go and they stuck on to being relief teachers.
In other words, is teaching the sort of work that anyone can take for purposes of relieving themselves because they have nothing to do? In other words, if you have nothing to do, you just go to teaching. Is that what we want to happen in our schools and does that help our educational standards, our profession and our children in terms of inculcation of knowledge. I think that there are various issues that can be addressed by having a teaching Professions Council and a Code of
Ethics or Conduct for teachers at the same time.
It is my fervent hope that this is what is going to happen when the
Minister finally brings this Bill to do with the Teaching Professions Council so that order can be put in our system and that if I am a geologist and I fail to get a job, it does not mean that I should go to school and teach geography because those two may not be very related.
Thank you Madam President.
HON. SEN. NYAMBUYA: Thank you very much Madam
President for giving me this opportunity to participate in this very important debate. Let me start by thanking the mover of the motion
Hon. Sen. Chief Charumbira and the seconder of the motion, Hon. Sen. Chief Mtshane. Let me also pay tribute to the President for delivering such a topical and very up-to-date address on issues which are alive in this our very beautiful country.
Allow me to raise a few points which are resultant of the
Presidential Address and the first one which Hon. Sen. Mashavakure has already alluded to involving the alignment of 30 Acts which are still remaining out of the 206 pieces of legislation which are supposed to be aligned. I would like to urge the Executive to expeditiously bring these outstanding pieces of legislation to this House so that we conclude as quickly as possible. I am convinced that each and every one of us here would like to leave this Parliament since this is supposed to be our last fifth and final session of the Eighth Parliament. We would like to leave a legacy of basa tasiya tapedza. So, I hope that these outstanding pieces of legislation are brought here so that the task is completed once and for all and that the new Constitution comes into full force across the board.
The second issue Madam President which I would like to raise concerns the Child Justice Bill. What this Bill is as the President alluded to, is that we must enact laws which will ensure that our children enjoy justice. There is no doubt that there is a lot of injustice which is happening right now in our country and the issues are just too many to many to mention, for example forced marriages, contradiction between the legal age of majority as well as the legal age of consent. Before I perhaps again go into a little bit of detail, let me give you a few statistics
Madam President, which perhaps may make us do things a little bit
faster than we are doing right now. Africa, Madam President, is the second largest and second most populous continent on earth and we do have a population of 1.2 billion people and with the rate at which we are growing, in 2030 we will very easily reach over 2 billion people. This is quite significant not only in terms of requirements for food security, but in terms of the demographic structure of the population which I will talk about and the majority of which are young people.
Our population is like an inverted triangle, old people are fewer than the young people, that is the reality of Africa. Africa also the most youthful population in the world with over 40% under the age of 15.
Zimbabwe’s population is 14 million, and 77% is actually children and youths below the age of 35. The youths in our country, that is people between the age 15 and 34 numbers almost 15 million. What it means therefore, is that it is imperative that we do something about correcting the wrongs which are being done on a significant sector of the population; it is not majority of the people. They owe it upon us as legislators, to ensure that we promulgate legislation which ensures that there is justice to that sector of our population which is actually the majority, but also that sector of the population which is tomorrow’s leaders.
Let me now move on to the third issue, which again His Excellency touched on and that involves national economy. These past four or five days have been quite eventful days and involve the economy. In our economy as you all know, is actually going through difficult times for various reasons - but the significant issue which involves our economy is the fact that there is a shortage of foreign currency. There is a shortage of foreign currency because we are importing goods worth US$6 billion roughly, and we export goods worth about US$4 billion. What it means therefore is that we have a current account deficit of about US$2 billion. In other words we are exporting money out of this country, in simple terms, we are exporting hard currency out of our country and that is why we have got a shortage of foreign currency.
Now, the President reminded us that we have had a good agricultural season and we must congratulate ourselves as a nation that at least we have achieved food security and food security is a very important aspect of any country in the world. Hungry people are angry people, but if our people have got enough food, at least we will be able to move on with our lives and try and reconstruct whatever needs to be reconstructed. What is required Madam President urgently, is to form a forum to ride on that success which we have enjoyed by following through those aspects which can give us quick win solutions. What I have in mind here is that having gone through and experienced a good agricultural season and agriculture is one aspect which brings us quick win solutions. We do not need many foreign investors but what we need to do, is for a crop like tobacco which currently brings into this country US$1 billion and that is not a small amount of money. We need to ride on that success and what is it that has enabled tobacco to be such a successful crop, it is because somebody has financed that crop and that is the private sector. The private sector has successfully financed tobacco because it is profitable because the pricing mechanism is correct, the matrix is sustainable.
In America they say ‘if it is not broken do not fix it’, so, what it means Madam President is that we have got a clear template of something which works. What we need as a Government is to grow that success. It is my hope that we will be able to build on that success and work towards doubling tobacco production so that instead of
US$1billion per annum, we will be able to generate something like US$2 billion per annum and that will cure our perennial problems of shortage of foreign currency. We have it in our hands to produce wealth for this country through growing a crop like tobacco. I also urge the country, the Government to ensure that we give more incentives so that people and those who are financing it will keep on financing that crop, just give them incentives, give them tax remedies and reduce import duties in taxes so that we produce more tobacco and that means foreign currency for us. That foreign currency from tobacco generally is difficult to steal and it comes straight into the coffers of the Reserve Bank.
The second aspect is gold, again on gold; Zimbabwe is one of the few countries in the world which has got so much in terms of gold. If you go everywhere - in Matabeleland, Midlands, Manicaland,
Mashonaland Central and almost all the provinces in this country has got gold and it is a commodity which does not wither, actually it is a commodity which is used for storing value. Now, this year those of you who have followed the newspapers and the news; small scale miners have produced more gold than the large scale miners for the first time in the history of this country. Small scale, I am not being rational, black people like you and me have produced more gold than the large scale miners and again gold has the potential to bring into this country about US$1billion per year. I urge the authorities again to try and capitalise on something which is very simple and very straightforward like this one so that we build upon this success and I am sure that we create more wealth, bring in more foreign currency into the country.
The last aspect or last but one, is the issue in terms of growing foreign currency is the diaspora. Various figures have been floated around in terms of how many people are out in the diaspora, some are saying one million, others two and maybe others even say three or four million people are out there in South Africa, UK, and Australia - all over the world. There is nothing wrong with this kind of thing. There is nothing wrong in having many people outside the country. In fact some countries actually run their economies based on diaspora remittances. Countries which come to mind very easily, a smaller country, a boat in the ocean, Israel is sustained by diaspora remittances. Israel as it is, so small but so powerful both in terms of its economy, in terms of its military and in terms of its political value. A country like Ireland besides tourism and brewing a lot of beer, is sustained a lot by diaspora remittances. In developing countries, we have got countries like
Philippine, Bangladesh, Burma, they rely a lot on diaspora remittances. Again, we need to capitalize and create the conditions which will make people want to bring their money through the formal means so that we reap that benefit. It comes in as hard currency which is what we need to sustain our country and that helps us create wealth so that we reduce our current account deficit, so that we wipe out the current challenges which we are facing in terms of liquidity challenges.
I proceed and talk about my fourth item which was raised by the President in his speech and it is the issue of the need to enhance economic competitiveness. We cannot live in isolation in this world, we live and we exist together with neighbour and other countries in the world, but above all, if we are going to bring in fresh money into the economy; if we are going to create the wealth which I have been talking about, we need what is called Foreign Direct Investment (FDI). We can only bring in and attract FDI if we are competitive; if people find it compelling to come and invest in this country and if they are convinced that they will have what is called a return on investment.
Madam President, this is a very serious issue which I urge all of us to address. We need amongst other things, to speak with one voice. We need to remove ambiguity in our laws. We need to improve the ease of doing business. Among other things, we need to reduce statutory charges. We have got too many statutory charges in this country, NSSA charges, Rural Council levies, standards levies, development levies, EMA charges et cetera. There are just a battery of charges which do not attract investors at all.
I see the light is warning me to sit down. I will just wind up and say, if we follow most of the issues which I have raised it is my belief that we will cover some substantial distance. I also want to urge the Ministry of Mines and Mining Development to come up and get on with exploration, quantify and identify the diamonds – the minerals which we have so that we can sell these resources and make money.
Finally, I hope we again promote transparency. Again, Ministries like the Ministry of Mines and Mining Development- transparency is necessary. The nation needs to know what is happening. People need to be told that we have received so much. – [HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.] – We have done so much, let us be transparent and let us reduce corruption. Let us eradicate corruption – [HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.] – I am sure we can very easily as Zimbabwe go on and craft a budget; I do not want to be involved in crafting a budget of $2 or 3 billion. Let us craft a budget of $30 billion so that everybody can have a piece of something. I thank you Madam President.
*HON. SEN. MAWIRE: Thank you Madam President. I would
like to thank the mover of the Presidential Speech, who is the President of Chiefs’ Council, Hon. Sen. Chief Charumbira, seconded by his Deputy, Hon. Sen. Chief Mtshane. I would like to talk on the issues of what the President talked about and also want to thank him for coming to this House from time to time, encouraging us to work hard. Although his desire is that we should conclude the 30 laws that are on the table. What really touched me is the issue of child marriage. This is a thorny issue because as a country, we realise that the country was going on the wrong direction.
Children are getting married when they are still young and there are a lot of health diseases in the country which are affecting our people. We have realised that because of child pregnancies it is very difficult for them to give birth safely. We have also noticed that there is a lot of
child abuse taking place in the homes from their parents, step mothers and step fathers. I was very happy when the President encouraged us to align the laws that have remained so that we get rid of the troubles which are associated with that.
A few weeks back, the male counterparts were angry when it was said that anyone who commits rape will be jailed for 60 years. They were only disgruntled for a short period because they knew there was no law supporting that provision; because of that we have seen that rape cases are on the increase among our children even old people. So if we align our laws, we will find that we would not have any challenges dealing with rapists.
The President also touched on land developers because they have turned most urban centres into chaos because they are the ones who are land barons. We heard Hon. Sen. Nyambuya talking about corruption, that is one area where corruption is rampant because they are given land, then co-jointly fleece people of their money. They do not develop the land as promised and the houses will not be constructed as agreed. They also go on to construct illegal structures on illegal land. He conscientised us so that we could look at that and get rid of people who think like that; who fleece the poor because they are rich.
So, this issue of land barons should come to an end. I remember two or three years back we moved a motion related to that, where we said these land developers should be investigated on how they acquired the land and how they have used the land to establish whether they have not fleeced people. We now see that this is troubling the nation, including our President and this should come to an end.
The President also touched on the issue of Command Agriculture.
He was happy about the programme because this year, the Lord’s favour was with us. He also talked about irrigation that we should continue looking at areas where we should give irrigation equipment, looking at the geographical area of those areas because there are areas where they never get enough rainfall, but some areas receive adequate rainfall every rainy season. It is only this year where all of us got adequate rainfall.
Even some of us who use irrigation, this year we did not irrigate because the rain was more than enough.
If you have irrigation, you can have a variety of crops. Even when we heard of shortages in the shops we were not worried because we know that we can still survive on our staple food and our vegetables are there in our gardens. Maybe we might be worried that we would not have cooking oil but we have our groundnuts where we can produce peanut butter to use in our relish.
Someone said that we should be united and talk with one voice so that we will be able to face the challenges so that we at least leave a legacy. Another Hon. Member took it further and said we should take the theme of one of the songs that we sing in our churches - in order for us to make sure that we have done everything is when we would have aligned the Bills that are lagging behind.
Looking at justice issues, when it comes to children’s rights, there are a lot of challenges. We can say we do not want child marriages but without any law enacted, we can leave things like that without solving anything because our male counterparts are seeing that there is no strong law that when they rape, they will be incarcerated. If these Bills are brought into this House, we then debate and put laws in place; all this will come to an end.
If we look at justice issues, it is very painful in our country because there is no justice on children. There are some children who are leaving school so that they go and work on farms. Some children cannot continue with education because their parents do not have fees. If our laws are in place, we will all know that if we start abusing children, it will not be good for us. We will also see that a lot of people who face human trafficking are the girl children. This also touches the Children’s Bill. If there is a strong law which talks about human trafficking; if they are brought to book, then they will know that they will be in trouble. I think those involved in child trafficking or those who pretend to assist these children to go should also be jailed. I think this will bring an end to this menace.
With these few words, I want to thank the President for delivering his speech to this House so that we look at the Bills that we have not looked at. I thank you.
HON. SEN. KHUMALO: Thank you Mr. President for giving me time to say something about the speech which was delivered by the President of the country. This speech is very developmental and very good but my concern is; will those who are responsible for implementation be able to implement what has been written down because most of the times we have information or policies written on paper but they are not practiced. There is no implementation of the written policies within the community.
I would like to look at the issue of Mines and Minerals Amendment Bill. Many people in the rural areas, especially the farm owners, have found the encroachment of these people who are not regulated a problem. Yes, there is a regulation which says that once the miners have discovered the mine, they take over. Some of us with some land or farms are in trouble with these people because they come and dig everywhere within your farm. When they leave the farm, they leave everything as it is – open for the animals to fall in. Nobody is there to control the fact that our animals are going to be injured.
We understand that when they are coming to mine, they are thinking of their families. They will be thinking that they are going to have money and their families are going to live a good life. I think you are aware, every development relates to nutrition. These people have the aim of developing their own homes; buying food for their own families. What about the food of those who own the land which they have come to destroy and left it open?
We would like these people to think of everyone when they are coming in. They want their families to be healthy and well nourished – this also applies to the farmers. The farmers also need to be compensated for the destruction which is being done by the miners. To the farm owner, they are destructive. To the country, they are developmental but if they are continuing with digging all over the farm; that is not good. The nutrition status of the farm owners is going to be interfered with and their children will not grow properly because their animals are being destroyed. Our goats and sheep fall into those pits but we do not get compensation for that.
I am bringing this up so that we understand that whatever developmental issue is done, that developmental issue affects the nutritional status and health of the community. That is number one.
Secondly, I would like to say that there is an issue of the children who are married at a younger age. I am very happy that the President said that there should be a Bill that prevents early marriages. Early marriages for me have this problem; the young girl who is sexually harassed because she is married, cannot say anything. She will become pregnant and she is still growing. That means that within the home, when she is given food, she is eating for herself and she is also supposed to feed for the fetus. That is not easily achieved. Therefore, we have to look after our children so that they grow up and mature so that when they are mature or over eighteen at least the growth rate would have stopped because people usually stop growing at eighteen or twenty one.
So these children who are above eighteen are now mature people who are now strong physically. When they deliver, they are able to deliver babies but these small children who are impregnated at a younger age, remember, when she is married at such tender age, if the child dies during labour, the family where she is married expect her to have another child. They will not allow her to recover. Within three or four months, she is already pregnant again to replace that child who has died. This is because the family demands that she has a child. She has no chance of saying no, I cannot have sex now; I am not strong. She just has to be pregnant. When she delivers again, she delivers another small baby. That small baby will be below the 1.5 kgs. That child is going to die again. There is a possibility that the mother may also die first because she is not strong enough as she was not strong enough to deliver the child. It is easier for mature women as they have strength. So, we need to defend young girls. I really support the President and I wish that would be the first Bill which comes to Parliament.
I hope you are aware that the delivery process of these small girls is increasing maternal deaths. The country has adopted an international agreement that maternal deaths should be reduced. Child and infants deaths must be reduced. When we are having these young girls getting married, we are increasing maternal deaths as well as increasing infant and child mortality. Can we also look at that? Sometimes these children do not go to hospitals for delivery, they deliver in the home and they look for the community midwives who will help the child. If the child is very young, they will talk to the husband who is an elderly man and say this child is not able to deliver. They are afraid to take the child to the hospital because they think they will be asked how the child got pregnant. I have an experience of children dying in townships because they did not go to hospitals. Can we all fight for this Bill to come quickly so that we can do something about the marriage of underage
girls?
The other issue of interest is that of schools, the teaching profession councils. Yes, every profession has its councils but the teachers do not have, anybody can be a teacher. While I accept that, before I went for teacher training, I was also a temporary teacher. Now, there are many people trained as teachers but they do not have jobs. How come untrained people get temporary teaching jobs when the trained teachers are lying around? That means there is some corruption going on because those people should not be there. We have many trained children that are loitering around but there are temporary teachers. Why should we have a temporary teacher when there are trained teachers? I am very grateful about this teaching profession council because that is what is going to end corruption because the temporary teachers without training went in through corruption. That means their parents and friends paid for them to get into the system. The trained teachers must get the jobs first before we have temporary teachers. I am thankful about that.
It is very important to have a council so that it looks at the systems within the education profession. In the nursing profession, because I have worked on both sides, they are not employed to go and stay in a house that has a falling roof. They go to properly built houses for nurses but you find a teacher is put anywhere. That means once there is that professional council, they will demand what is right for teachers. The teachers also need the respect that other people have. I was happy with the Teachers’ Profession Council Bill coming to Parliament.
I would also want to bring the issue of irrigation. This year everybody is happy, we have achieved our household food security and country food security. I hope that we are now going to concentrate on the issues of irrigation. We will employ the agriculturalists who are going to encourage irrigation and look into a balanced diet and not to small grains and maize only; so that we concentrate on the other foods that are good. We are all aware that and it was said in the Bible that
Daniel and his friends refused to eat the King’s diet. They asked for the diet that had pulses and their brains were found to be much better than the other people. Therefore, it is telling us that we should mix the foods. When Jesus was giving the food to the multitudes, he gave them the fish plus the bread. Can we think of mixtures and not one side? As parliamentarians, when you go out, encourage people to grow other foods and not the maize and the small grains. Let us have a variety. Demand it, you are the senior people and communities take us as people who are going to control what is happening there. Can we help?
I was happy that there is now going to be a fund that is going to look after the families of those that have been injured or affected by accidents. I hope you all know why. Their children do not go to school, they are not able to go to hospitals and they are not able to eat properly like every other child. Therefore, this is a great idea of coming up with the motor vehicle accident fund that will help the communities. While we are thinking of all the accidents, the child marriages and so forth, we should think of the one thousand days that are supposed to be taken care of when a woman is pregnant. The child that has just been married will not practice the one thousand days. Nobody will be there to feed her. She will not be able to feed her child. Therefore, I am asking all of us here, when we go out there, we should be thinking that it is our country which is being underdeveloped by people that are marrying young children. They are making other children have children who are not going to develop mentally. Therefore, we are asking for the mental development of those children by the one thousand days that is supposed to be practiced by the pregnant mother and her child. Thank you very much for giving me this opportunity.
HON. SEN. TAWENGWA: I move that the debate do now
adjourn.
HON. SEN. MUMVURI: I second.
Motion put and agreed to.
Debate to resume: Wednesday, 28th September, 2017.
On the motion of HON. SEN. TAWENGWA, seconded by HON.
SEN. MUMVURI, the Senate adjourned at a Half past Three o’clock p.m.
PARLIAMENT OF ZIMBABWE
Tuesday 1st August, 2017
The Senate met at Half-past Two o’clock p.m.
PRAYERS
(THE HON. PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE in the Chair)
ANNOUNCEMENT BY THE HON. PRESIDENT OF THE
SENATE
INVITATION TO A CLEAN-UP CAMPAIGN
THE HON. PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE: I have to inform
the Hon. Senators that there will be a cleanup campaign for Harare
Central Business District in promotion of health and wellness on Thursday, 3rd August, 2017 from 1000hrs to 1300 hours. The campaign is being organised by the Health Advisor in the Office of the President and Cabinet. Hon. Members are urged to participate in this event by clearing the surroundings of Parliament. All interested Hon. Members are requested to register with the Public Relations officers who will be stationed at the Members Dining Area today from 1400 hours to 1430 hours.
Hon. Senators having been making noise.
THE HON. PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE: Order, I know
we are excited to see each other again after a long break.
MOTION
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
THE VICE PRESIDENT AND MINISTER OF JUSTICE, LEGAL AND PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIR (HON. E. D.
MNANGAGWA): Madam President, I move that Orders of the Day, Numbers 1 to 3 be stood over until the rest of the Orders of Day on the Order Paper are disposed of.
Motion put and agreed to.
MOTION
REPORT OF THE PRIVILEGES COMMITTEE ON DEATH
THREATS TO MEMBERS OF THE MDC-T PARTY
HON. SEN. CHIEF CHARUMBIRA: I move the motion
standing in my name that this House takes note of the Report of the
Privileges Committee on Death Threats to Members of the MDC-T
Party.
HON. ZIYAMBI: I second.
HON. SEN. CHIEF CHARUMBIRA:
GLOSSARY OF TERMS
SMS is an acronym for Short Message Service. It is a text messaging service component of most telephone, World Wide Web, and mobile telephony systems. It utilises standardised communication protocols to enable mobile phone devices to exchange short text messages.
SMSC is Short Message Service Centre. This is the core of the SMS platform. It is tasked with SMS operations such as routing, forwarding and storing of incoming text messages on their way to the desired endpoint. It creates a buffer. Wireless network operators connect
SMSCs through gateways.
Spoofing is a service that allows a caller to masquerade as someone else by falsifying the number that appears on the recipients caller ID display. The same also applies to messaging.
Smart phone is a mobile phone that performs many of the functions of a computer, typically having a touchscreen interface, Internet access, and an operating system capable of running downloaded application (apps).
A basic phone (feature phone) describes mobile phones which are limited in capabilities, in contrast to a modern smartphone. These have the simple functions of calling and sending text messages.
A switch or a network switch (also called switching hub, bridging hub, officially MAC bridge) is a computer networking device that connects devices together on a computer network by using packet switching to receive, process, and forward data to the destination device
A common short code (CSC) is a short telephone number, usually consisting of five digits, that is used to address SMS and MMS messages from a cellular telephone. Each common short code is designed to be unique to each operator.
Cyber crime is defined as a crime in which a computer is the object of the crime (hacking, phishing, spamming) or is used as a tool to commit an offense (child pornography, hate crimes).
A server is a computer or device on a network that manages network resources. There are many different types of servers. For example: File server: a computer and storage device dedicated to storing files. Any user on the network can store files on the server.
1.0 INTRODUCTION
1.1 Following submissions by Hon Nelson Chamisa that he and several Members of Parliament from the MDC -T, had received death threat messages on their mobile phones on the eve of the Official Opening of the Fourth Session of the Eighth Parliament and that death threats and harassment of MDC-T Hon. Members had become the norm each time His Excellency the President was due to address Parliament, the Speaker of the National Assembly ruled, on Thursday, 6th October, 2016 that there existed a prima facie case of contempt of Parliament. As a result, he directed that the matter be referred to a Privileges Committee to be appointed by the Committee on Standing Rules and Orders to look into the alleged death threats received by some Members of the MDC-T
Party.
The Committee on Standing Rules and Orders subsequently appointed a six Member Committee chaired by Hon. Sen. Chief
Charumbira. The members of the Committee are:-
Hon. Sen. Chief Charumbira (Chairperson)
Hon. Chakona
Hon. Sen. Chimanikire
Hon. Mlilo
Hon. Mpariwa and
Hon. Ziyambi
2.0 TERMS OF REFERENCE
The Committee’s terms of reference were given as follows;
- To determine whether the said messages directly, indirectly or by inference constitute contempt of Parliament;
- To investigate the source of the alleged threatening messages;
- To make appropriate recommendations and report to the House by
31 March 2017.
The Committee began its work on the 5th of December, 2016.
- METHODOLOGY
- The Committee began by making announcements in both Houses on 25thJanuary and 7thFebruary, 2017 in the National Assembly and the Senate respectively, calling for Hon. Members who had received death threat messages to give evidence to the Committee on the threats received. Two Members indicated willingness to give evidence to the
Committee, i.e. Hon. Chibaya and Hon. Matienga.
The Committee invited Hon. Khupe to give evidence in her capacity as Leader of the Opposition in the National Assembly. Hon. Gonese was invited to give evidence as Chief Whip of MDC-T in the National Assembly and as the Committee subsequently discovered, he was also a recipient of death threat messages. Hon. Sen. Mlotshwa in her capacity as MDC-T chief Whip in the Senate, was invited to give evidence, but was unable to attend the meeting. Hon. Chamisa was also invited, but he too was unable to meet with the Committee. The Committee also called Mr. S. Madzore, who was a Member of Parliament but received similar SMSs after he was no longer in the service of Parliament. ZRP officials had indicated that he had reported receiving death threats as well.
- Assistance was sought from Mobile Network Operators (MNOs) i.e. NetOne and Econet. The objective of hearing oral evidence from them was to understand as much as possible how the kind of technology involved operates and whether it was possible to trace and therefore identify the culprit who had sent death threats to Honourable
Members of Parliament. By the same token, the Committee invited POTRAZ to give oral evidence.
- Officials from the Zimbabwe Republic Police (ZRP) were invited to confirm to the Committee whether there were in fact reports of death threats and what progress, if any, had been made in apprehending the culprits of such an odious deed.
- Flowing from oral evidence received from officials from
ZRP, who informed the Committee that complaints of death threat text messages were reported to the Police by some MPs as well as Mr. S. Madzore who was no longer an MP, the Committee decided to invite him to give oral evidence on the same.
- The Committee wrote to Econet, in terms of the Privileges, Immunities and Powers of Parliament Act, requesting that the offender(s) who sent death threat messages to Members of Parliament be traced. Econet had indicated during oral evidence that it had the capacity to do this, but that it could take about two months to accomplish.
- SUBMISSIONS BY THE COMPLAINANTS AND
VARIOUS STAKEHOLDERS
- Complainants
The Hon. Chibaya and Hon. Matienga showed Members of the Committee the text messages they received on the 5th of October, 2016 and the import of the messages was the same. Hon. Matienga received three messages, Hon. Chibaya seven and Hon. Gonese five. The senders of the messages reflected as ‘Hitman’ and ‘Death’, and not the name of a person or a number. Hon Chibaya and Hon. Gonese had also received similar messages in 2015, prior to the Official opening of Parliament.
The messages read as follows:-
- “You may have a false immunity as a group but remember after that you will be alone again, you will be remembered for a few days after that you are history.
- Be reasonable as you think of what you intend to do in the august house. Your family is better off around you. Be severely warned.!!!!
- Don’t be used by those planning to demonstrate for their selfish ends, for they won’t be with you when the dark cloud of death engulfs you. We are trailing.
- I have killed many, if you want me to add your name on my death list, continue participating in tomorrow’s demo in Parliament.
- Am watching your steps 24/7, don’t try to be a hero. Be warned.
Your participation invites death at your doorstep.
- I have plenty of space to bury your corpse. Be warned, your involvement in tomorrow’s planned demo is a clear indication of joining your ancestors.
- Urikufa nemukadzi nevana Zimbabwendeyeropa (sic)”.
All the Hon. Members who received messages could not see the number of the sender. Where the number or name of the sender should have been, were the names ‘Hitman’ and ‘Death’. They could neither reply nor call the sender of the messages. Hon. Matienga and Hon. Chibaya still had the messages in their phones. Their cell phone lines were in basic phones. Those who received the messages on their smart phones could not retrieve them as they simply vanished from their cell phones after some time.
Hon. Khupe, the leader of the Opposition in the National Assembly informed the Committee that she encouraged MPs who had received the threatening messages to report to the police. The Speaker of the National Assembly also encouraged those who had received the messages to make police reports.
As a result of these threats, Hon. Members interviewed by the Committee all reported that the messages affected their contributions to debate in the House and in Parliamentary Committees adversely. They all reported that they feared for their lives and those of their families.
Each one of the Members who presented oral evidence to the Committee testified that after the messages, they were afraid that they were being watched or followed. Some said they had to change their usual routes and routines as security precautions.
4.2 Zimbabwe Republic Police (ZRP)
The Committee also heard oral submissions from ZRP officials who told the Committee that they received complaints of death threats from the Hon. Chamisa, Hon. Chibaya, Hon. Majome and Hon. Gonese in 2015. In 2016 Hon. Majome and another member of the MDC-T party made reports to the police with similar complaints of text messages containing death threats. It was submitted by the ZRP officials that investigating crimes of this nature takes time.
The Committee was informed that Detectives involved Postal and Telecommunications Regulating Authority (POTRAZ) because the crimes were cybercrimes. They also requested help from all licensed mobile network operators. Through provision of the law, they made applications to find out whether the criminal element went through these operators. It was found that they did not go through the usual cell phone operators. Instead, they used a short code -33284, which reflected as
‘Death’ and ‘Hitman’ to those who received it. The ZRP officers explained that if the short code had been operational in Zimbabwe, it should have been and would have been registered to someone in the country, but it was not registered with any of the licensed operators. ZRP further explained that short codes are usually used for promotions only and are allocated by POTRAZ. The person(s) who used the short code stole from POTRAZ because they hacked into the POTRAZ system and did not pay the fees due to the regulator.
The messages may have been generated in or outside Zimbabwe, either roaming or otherwise, ZRP officials could not be certain. ZRP went on further to say that POTRAZ has the capacity to determine where the SMSs came from, but had failed to do so. Hackers can by-pass POTRAZ and can use the short code which is then untraceable on the mobile network. The Police have not been able to identify the user of the short code because they lack cutting edge technology.
The Committee was informed that experts were working with
POTRAZ to identify the perpetrators. The ZRP officials advised the Committee that cybercrime is a new method of operation by criminals, and technology in Zimbabwe needs to be upgraded so that police can track such crimes in good time. To assure the Committee of the capacity and willingness to fight such crime, the police officials told of two cases involving cybercrime which they had successfully solved.
ZRP Officials emphasized that there must be trust between ZRP and complainants in order to solve crimes in good time. Trust in the police is eroded when people report crimes but do not get results.
4.3 Posts and Telecommunications Regulatory Authority in
Zimbabwe (POTRAZ)
After meeting ZRP officials who indicated that POTRAZ had the capacity to track down the sender(s) of the death threats, the Committee felt it prudent to interview POTRAZ officials. POTRAZ officials informed the Committee that the messages in question had been sent via the SMS platform and PORTAZ had engaged mobile phone operators to assist in tracing the origins of the SMSs. The Committee heard that if the messages had been sent from a locally registered number, it would have been easy to identify the source. However, bulky SMSs which are computer generated are a challenge because these do not have a centre number.
It was further explained that POTRAZ does not have a direct role in tracing the messages as these were resident in the archives of the service providers. Telecommunication companies are compelled by law to maintain a data record. They keep archives of where the messages originated from. It was further explained that one of POTRAZ’s mandates is to manage the national numbering plan as a way of identifying users and network operators. POTRAZ also facilitates promotions for cell phone line operators who are issued with three to five digit short codes.
POTRAZ informed the Committee that Bulk SMS providers computer generate messages which may appear as if they are from a cell phone, when they are not. Such messages are given a centre name e.g.
‘Hitman’. POTRAZ officials said that is called ‘spoofing’, where internet users can send messages to chosen numbers using whatever name they choose as a centre name. Most of these services are foreign based. POTRAZ assists network providers with lawful communication interception, to ensure compliance with legal licensing requirements.
POTRAZ further informed the Committee that the short code 33284 used to broadcast the threatening messages was not allocated by the regulator as its database indicates that it was not allocated to anyone. The Committee was also informed that short codes are not assigned on a permanent basis and that it was very difficult to trace the origins of a message sent from a computer. It was explained that in certain cases, the messages pass through many layers, thus complicating the task of locating the actual source, particularly where the message originates in a foreign jurisdiction.
4.4 NETONE
In giving evidence, NetOne officials indicated that as a general rule, they are not allowed to divulge subscriber / client information except in a case where the said subscriber / client uses their line for illegal activities. They informed the Committee that when an illegality has occurred, client details are only disclosed upon production of a court order by Police. However, the officials assured the Committee that if all the requirements were met, any messages received on their NetOne lines could be traced, as well as the location from which the messages were generated. They further explained that where an SMS originated from an international number, it is difficult to pinpoint the exact source of the message.
The NetOne officials explained that even though it is possible to pinpoint the country of origin of the message when the message has been sent through a cell phone, the opposite is true for a message generated from a computer and sent via the internet. They also explained that it is possible that the person(s) who sent the death threat messages may have used a cloned number. A cloned number is an international number reflecting as a local one. Certain technology is used to mirror a local number in order to bypass the billing system. This way, the call is billed as a local number. A caller identity can be hidden for calls but not text messages.
NetOne informed the Committee that ordinarily it does not listen in on conversations, unless there is an inquiry by state security on a matter of national security. This, however, does not mean they cannot, the volumes of phone calls are too high. Every mobile network operator has a switch, which can be used to listen into conversations, but is only accessible bypass word to security personnel. The Telecommunications Act, does not allow them to intercept information between parties.
NetOne reported that it keeps a log of numbers of SMSs a mobile line sends out, but not the content. The SMS count helps to keep an account for billing purposes. The records are voluminous and take up a lot of space, this therefore means that there is a limited period of time that they can be kept.
4.5 Econet
Econet officials informed the Committee that it is possible to trace the source of messages sent to its network subscribers. Records that
Econet keeps can help track the second number and its country of origin.
The law requires that records be kept for up to eight years. Since Econet has many subscribers the records are in millions and it would take a long time to work through them to trace the messages in question. As previously explained by NetOne, Econet reiterated the fact that some SMSs are originated from computers, through the internet. The computer can access some device which can work like a cell phone or SMSC. It was explained that an SMSC is a machine which, before sending an SMS, analyses the address where the SMS is supposed to go, and then it delivers that SMS accordingly.
When an SMS is generated by a computer via the internet, the
SMS can circumvent the network service provider. In the case of a message being sent from a computer on the Internet or from a server, the message will be sent directly to the customer. Econet is able to recognise that a number on its network received an SMS and the country of origin, but will not be able to identify the number from which the message was sent.
Where the identity of the sender has a name such as ‘hitman’, this would indicate that the messages most likely originated from a computer. If a message comes with a name which is not in one’s phonebook, this means that the message originated from a computer or a server. In terms of the law, information concerning subscribers, can only be divulged to entities or institutions specified by law such as the police carrying out their investigations of criminal activities. The police have to produce a warrant of search and seizure in order to compel the mobile network operator before they can search through their network.
Econet only keeps a record which shows that a particular number sent a message to a certain number, but not the actual content of the message.
The information is easy to retrieve within 60 days, after that, it goes to the archives. The recovery of such a record after two months is a long and cumbersome process which could take up to a month or longer. The Committee wrote to Econet on the 20th of April 2017, requesting that the source of the death threats be traced and no response has yet been received.
5.0 The Committee’s Findings
5.1 POTRAZ’s control and monitoring systems are very weak, it emerged during their submissions that they do not have a direct role in tracing the messages as these are resident in the archives of service providers. It is the service providers who keep the archives of where the messages originated from. However, in this instance none of the service providers could trace the origins of the messages.
5.2 The Committee also found that Bulk SMS senders computer generate messages which may appear as if they are from a cell phone, when they are not, and messages sent via the computer are very difficult to trace. Most of such services are foreign based, which is the most likely scenario in this instance because the short code 33284 used to broadcast the threatening messages was not allocated by the regulator.
5.3 The Committee also noted that even though the messages were sent to Econet lines, Econet could not establish the origins because the messages were not sent directly from a mobile cell phone, but probably a computer, through the internet.
5.4 The committee found that despite the identity of the culprits not being known, the act of sending threats of any kind to a Member of Parliament is criminal and contemptuous of the August House. Even if the reason for threatening or inducing fear is not clearly stated, such will be attributed to the conduct of the Member in Parliament or its Committees.
5.5 All the above findings revealed that the country does not have the capacity, technologically and legally to combat such intrusions through the use of information communication technology systems. POTRAZ should be taking a proactive role in lobbying for technological evolution.
6.0 Discharge of Mandate
6.1 To investigate the source of the alleged threatening messages
The Committee made its investigations to find the source of the alleged threatening messages using all the possible avenues and could not determine the source of the death threat messages. The messages were sent to Econet lines, but Econet could not establish the origins because the messages were not sent directly from a mobile cell phone, but probably a computer, through the internet. The mandate of the Committee was to investigate the source of the alleged threatening messages and the Committee established that death threat messages were indeed sent, but could not establish who the sender was.
6.2 To determine whether the said messages directly, indirectly or by Inference constitute contempt of Parliament.
The Privileges, Immunities and Powers of Parliament Act (Chapter
2:08) (PIPPA) paragraph 13 provides that, “Making any oral or written threat to a Member or challenging him to fight on account of his conduct in Parliament or a Committee” constitutes contempt of Parliament.
According to Erskine May “contempt of Parliament” is “any act or omission which obstructs or impedes either House of Parliament in performance of its functions, or which obstructs or impedes any member or officer of such House in the discharge of his duty, or which has a tendency, directly or indirectly, to produce such results which may be treated as a contempt even though there is no precedent of the offence. The definition of Contempt of Parliament as provided for in the PIPPA was confirmed by the Court in the case of Roy Leslie Bennet vs
Emmerson Mnangagwa (in his capacity as Speaker of Parliament).
The act of sending death threat messages to a Member of Parliament constitutes contempt of Parliament and is an offence at law.The nature of the threats or intimidation must directly affect the member and negatively impact on his/ her duties as a Member of Parliament. The Oral evidence presented before the Committee clearly showed that the death threat messages were aimed at hindering Members in the discharge of their mandate in Parliament. The principle of
Parliamentary privilege includes the right of a Member to discharge his
/her responsibilities free from threats and intimidation from other
Members of the House or from any person.
7.0 Recommendations
7.1 There is need to improve technology in the telecommunications sector in order to effectively combat cybercrimes. Ministry of Information, Communication Technology, Postal and
Courier Services, in conjunction with Ministry of Finance and Economic Development should make budgetary provisions for technology development in the 2018 budget.
7.2 There is need to expedite the process of bringing into the operation of the Cybercrimes Bill, which should establish a Cyber Security Office, a Cyber-Crime Special Unit and a Ministerial Committee to deal with cyber-crimes. The Bill should be introduced in
Parliament by September, 2017.
7.3 The Postal and Telecommunications Act must also be amended to reflect the technological changes around the globe and render certain actions as unlawful, for example in the matter before the Committee, the culprit unlawfully accessed the system. A bill proposing amendments to the Postal and Telecommunications Act must be brought to Parliament before the end of 2017.
7.4 There is need for legislation or bi-lateral agreements which enable the ease of access of information beyond the Zimbabwean borders. This is essential for the facilitation of cooperation between the police and prosecuting authorities in different countries. Ministry of Information, Communication Technology, Postal and Courier Services should facilitate this by December, 2017.
7.5 Parliament should by resolution of the whole House exhort the Commissioner General of Police to lead the investigation and finalisation of this matter. ZRP should report progress to Parliament by end of October 2017.
7.0 Conclusion
7.1 The Committee condemns any conduct whose aim is to undermine the lawful performance of Members of Parliament or citizens. Such conduct is an anachronism in a civilised society and undermines democracy.
7.2. The complaints in question revolved around information communication technology systems. The lack of proper technological and legislative mechanisms to combat such crimes was clearly apparent in this case. It is the Committee’s view that mechanisms be put in place to ensure that proper controls and legislative frameworks be put in place to curtail such incidents.
7.3. The Committee condemns any conduct whose objective is to undermine the lawful performance of Members of Parliament. Such conduct is an anachronism in a civilised society and it undermines democracy.
+HON. SEN. MASUKU: Thank you Madam President for
affording me this opportunity to second this report that was brought by
Hon. Sen. Chief Charumbira. Madam President, I am not a member of the committee. Looking at what the committee did, from what action the Speaker took after he had received complaints from those who had received these nasty messages, the Speaker saw it fit that a committee be set up to investigate this. To me, Madam President, that shows that Zimbabwe really wants such cases to be investigated and that it should not be done to anyone.
I would like to thank the Speaker for having accorded this the importance that it deserves. The Chairperson of the Committee has already spoken about the investigations they made. In other words, we might say that they did not leave any stone unturned, because they investigated thoroughly. They investigated NetOne, Econet and they went further, with POTRAZ. All that was done in a bid to find out the culprits who sent messages to the Hon. Members of Parliament.
Looking at this report Madam President, if these death messages were sent by cell phones, maybe we could have found out who those culprits were. However, since these messages were not sent via cell phones, it is not easy for them to carry out proper investigations. Since Zimbabwe is one of the countries within the global village, I do not know if it is possible that all the computers could be checked to established the ones that sent those messages. I know it is not an easy thing to do.
Madam President, for one to be a Member of Parliament, one is chosen by the people to work for people - but then if you are threatened, it is difficult for you to carry out your duties. I say so Madam President because this is very important that this matter should be investigated. This is because we never know who is going to receive such threats in future. This is something that is really criminal Madam President. It does not matter who has been threatened. There are other threats that have been made to other people in this way using modern technology but when it comes to the august Houses, it is extremely bad. When we look at the committee’s report again, it has been stated that Zimbabwe has not yet reached a stage whereby it can investigate thoroughly things like these, where messages are sent from other countries and the messages would appear as if it has come from within the country. This shows that it is important for Zimbabwe to enter or to investigate deeply such things because these are dangerous.
I have also noticed Madam President that this is very important and that Zimbabwe should not lag behind especially when it comes to issues of delivering messages. It is good that such things have come up in the open and that will make the Government to investigate such things very fast so that we do not lag behind. If the Committee wants a Bill to be passed in this House, it is important because this will teach the people to investigate such things that cause despondency within the country. I have stood up Madam President that such Bills should be brought to the House as soon as possible. Since the report also states that the police will proceed with the investigations, they will make investigations so that we do not leave any stone unturned.
This is because we do not want such mischievous acts to disturb the peace in the country because we have to know where all this is coming from. This report that was brought by Sen. Chief Charumbira is very clear and it has to be taken with the importance that it deserves so that such mischievous acts should not continue, and also that those behind these mischievous acts should be brought to book because this is really mischievous. I would like to thank you Madam President.
*HON. SEN. TIMVEOS: Thank you Hon. Sen. Masuku. I would
like to thank Madam President for giving me the opportunity to make my contribution. I would like to say thank you to Hon. Sen. Chief Charumbira for the Committee which he leads which made the fact finding mission. I recognise that as a Committee, they really worked hard to get all the facts which are needed in order to put corrective measures on these items. From my observation, I think there are a lot of technicalities involved in this motion. My feeling is that we need to source out for specialist services so that we can investigate where this information originated from.
As members of the SADC Region, we should be aware that if we are incapable of getting the necessary facts, we could have some experts in a country like South Africa who could unearth all these problems which are happening. I believe that when we are investigating such issues, let us not use partisan politics and say the victims are members of the opposition, but what we should be aware of is that when we come to Parliament, we are representatives of the people and whatever we are saying is what is originating from our constituencies.
Consequently, when I am saying something which may be viewed in the negative, this will be echoing what my constituents is saying and when I am intimidated, it shows that we have people who have the capability of intimidating anyone of us whenever we make these contributions. My sentiments are that these should be investigated and get the source of this information. Let us not give evidence that these people are unconquerable because when they have sent out these messages and they are not brought to book, they will simply think that they can do it to the next person.
We know technically that there are cases whereby the origin of these calls can be traced because it comes from a computer. We can trace that message and see where the message originated from. We can also be told where the computer was purchased from, who bought it and abused it. I am worried because the Ministers who are supposed to be protecting us from this technical harassment are smiling. We have people who have been threatened, ladies and Members of Parliament and members of their families were also threatened because they feel that if they intimidate the family, the Hon. Member will not be able to air their views.
What really surprises me is that we are being weakened and there is fear. I wonder whether we will be able to develop because if we are intimidated, we will not be able to say anything. What surprises me most is that as Members of Parliament, we attend organisations in other countries and we see how people are expressing themselves freely. When we are voted by the people, they echo their sentiments through the selected Members of Parliament and I feel if we do not get to the route cause of this, we are going to be people who are timid. We will not make free contributions and when we are in Parliament, we should be protected.
Personally, I feel that this is not the end of the issue because S. A. is so near and when we go there, within an hour you will be there. As a result, we have cars which are being bought for campaign and we are saying and I repeat, let us not apportion blame and say this is a partisan thing and only the opposition is being intimidated, but tomorrow it will be your turn and you will also be intimidated and you will really feel how it feels to live under fear. Ministers, please handle our case with the necessary care that it deserves. I thank you.
+HON. SEN. MLOTSHWA: You will forgive me today because
I have a bout of flu. Madam President, this country has a Constitution although we learnt that this...
THE HON. PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE: Order please!
HON. SEN. MARAVA: On a point of order Madam President. I
think everybody is just moving around in this Parliament, is that allowed? Garai pasi apa, nyararai.
THE HON. PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE: Order Hon.
Members.
+HON. SEN. MLOTSHWA: Thank you Madam President.
I want to thank the Committee that was chaired by Hon. Sen. Chief Charumbira and also the Committee on Standing Rules and Orders which put this Committee in place and our Presiding Officers who agreed that this issue was a serious issue. Madam President, the issue of intimidation is not supposed to be allowed because we are going to the same occasion of the Opening of Parliament and we expect that maybe it is going to be worse if there is no solution to this issue.
Madam President, what I want to say to this House, especially to those who have never been threatened, is that some of us have been threatened in our lives so much that we feel we are dead already and we are just waiting for the coffin and to be buried. Members of Parliament are representing the people and we are using a Constitution in this country though last week in this same House, I learnt that this Constitution has some flaws and is a negotiated document, so many things were said of this Constitution.
However, at the same time, this Constitution on its founding provisions, states very well that ‘Zimbabwe is a unitary, democratic and sovereign Republic’ and also on the same Chapter, Subsection 3, it says that ‘Zimbabwe is a multiparty, democratic political system.’ It is a multiparty democratic political system. So, it means that everybody must know that it is not a crime to have Members of other parties other than those who are in the majority, representing people. We cannot think the same way in this country, we have to have people who oppose what we think is the best and we should have people who are not interested to be members of our party. That is why we have this provision in the Constitution and when we sit here as opposition, we are guided by that, we do not just come here. We come here because it is correct to be a member of the opposition and to represent people by doing that.
Madam President, for us to be treated by this hit man as if it is a crime, it is unfortunate that maybe this hit man does not even read the
Constitution and does not live in the real world. In the real world, even your own wife or husband can like different things from yours, so is it a crime? You live together peacefully and even bear children when you know that your wife is opposed to what you like. So, why are we not supposed to have our opinions and support what we have to support? Madam President, I also think that the Ministry of Home Affairs and that of Information Communication Technology, Postal and Courier Services Ministries did not do enough work in terms of this threat.
The Ministry of Information Communication Technology, Postal and Courier Services was supposed to demonstrate that it has all the qualities and it is not only wasting the fiscus money by having a Minister and Deputy Minister when they are not qualified. If they were qualified, then they should know what is happening in other countries. I think…
[A mobile phone rings.]
THE HON. PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE: Could you
please switch off your cell phones.
HON. SEN. MLOTSHWA: Thank you Madam President. I can
see whose cell phone it is but I do not want to say. I shall not speak. Madam President, it is disheartening that in a country where we seem to have technological advancement, a Ministry that has to look into these issues and demonstrate why the fiscus is investing money into ICT - there is no way that it can be said that some other bush scientists can now invade our country and sent messages that can never be traced. It can never happen because in other countries, we have seen the same messages being traced through people who are really qualified.
Madam President, we also hope that our Home Affairs and police should take it serious that Members of Parliament were threatened here. However, because they are very busy in the roads, in need of money, they do not want to look into this issue because there is no money in it. That is what I can say Madam President because if they wanted to make sure that the culprits or culprit was nailed, they should have done so and we were going to be proud that our police are doing a professional service to this country.
Madam President, it is not the first time that I hear of messages that are received and are never traced. Let me tell you, I will go back because I reported a case at Bulawayo Central some time back in my private life when I received a call. However, I was directed from one office to another by the police until I gave up on trying to trace who had called me. There is an attitude and body language when you go there and the questions asked are like, ‘are you a Member of Parliament?’
Yes, I am. ‘For which party?’ It shows exactly that the person is not prepared. I still have Reference Number for the case but it took years and years before anything was done until I gave up.
So, it seems that the law in this country is discriminatory. They want to attend only to certain people and the others are not being protected by the same law. So, Madam President, we wish that before this motion is closed, we have presentations from the ICT and Home Affairs Ministry so that at least we know that they have done a thorough work. Before we close this motion, we must know why they are failing to trace this number because we are facing the Official Opening again and we are going to be threatened again. So, it is really a problem that people are not allowed to represent those who voted for them.
Madam President, I think with the few words that I have said, I hope the Presiding Officers, because of the good work that they did of allowing the Committee on Standing Rules and Orders to put in place a Committee, would make sure that these two ministries do us a favour by reporting back again in order for us to hear why…
Some Hon. Ministers having been talking at the top of their voices THE HON. PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE: Order please.
HON. SEN. MLOTSHWA: Thank you. …to hear why Home
Affairs and ICT Ministries are failing to tell us who is sending messages to Hon. Members of Parliament who are supposed to be protected by the Constitution of this land. Madam President, I thank you.
HON. SEN. MASHAVAKURE: Thank you Madam President. I
am very grateful for the Committee which was selected by Parliament to make an investigation. The Committee is led by Hon. Sen. Chief Charumbira and they have given us a report back on their investigations. When they talked of the Cybercrime Bill, I feel that it should be expedited so that on its conclusion, it may prevent such crimes which are cybercrime related because at the moment, we have criminals who are taking advantage of the absence of such a law. If possible, may we please have this Bill introduced in both Houses in September as this is going to protect both private and public figures. All over the world, we have people who are being mishandled and punished by the lack of this Cybercrime Act and we are saying, the Attorney-General and the Committees should be talking about this cybercrime. Therefore, we are saying, the Commissioner General of the Police should really work on this Cybercrime Act because my feeling is that if only we had such an Act, investigations would be expedited.
My other request is that, I need to have information from the Chairperson of this Committee. I think that there should be some interaction with international Police organisations such as Interpol so that whenever we are carrying such investigations, we have the international charter of looking at this cybercrime. We need to get another way of solving this through the evidence which is presented when a crime is being investigated. When I make this debate, I am not only confining to this particular case but, I am talking of a legal frame which can be put in place which will lead to the arrest, conviction and incarceration of cyber-criminals. With those few words, I thank you Madam President.
HON. SEN. CHIEF CHARUMBIRA: Madam President, I move
that the debate do now adjourn.
HON. SEN. TAWENGWA: I second.
Motion put and agreed to.
Debate to resume: Wednesday, 2nd August, 2017.
MOTION
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
THE VICE PRESIDENT AND MINISTER OF JUSTICE, LEGAL AND PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (HON. E.D.
MNANGAGWA): I move that we go back to Order of the Day, Number
3.
Motion put and agreed to.
THIRD READING
CONSTITUTION OF ZIMBABWE AMENDMENT (NO. 1) BILL
[H.B. 1A, 2017]
Third Order read: Third Reading: Constitution of Zimbabwe Amendment (No. 1) Bill [H.B. 1A, 2017].
THE VICE PRESIDENT AND MINISTER OF JUSTICE, LEGAL AND PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (HON. E.D.
MNANGAGWA): Madam President, I move that Constitution of Zimbabwe Amendment (No. 1) Bill [H.B. 1A, 2017] be now read the third time.
THE HON. PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE: Section 328, (5)
of the Constitution of Zimbabwe provides that a Constitutional Bill must be passed at its last reading in the National Assembly and the Senate by an affirmative vote of two-thirds of the membership of each House. In order to comply with the provisions of Section 328 (5), it is necessary that the number of affirmative votes cast by Members be recorded. I therefore, direct that the bells be now rung after which the votes of the Hon. Members will be counted.
HON. SEN. CHABUKA: On a point of order Madam President. Madam President, may you please enquire from the Ministers why it is that today we have a full bench of Ministers, yet at the days when we expect them to come especially on Thursdays during Question Time, they do not come.
THE HON. PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE: Hon. Member,
your point of order is out of order.
[Bells rung.]
[House divided.]
THE HON. PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE: Order! The
“Ayes” shall file to my right and the “Noes” shall file to my left. My tellers to the right will be Hon. Sen. Mohadi and Hon. Sen. Mumvuri.
My tellers to the “Noes” will be Hon. Sen. Mlotshwa and Hon. Sen.
Marava.
AYES 53: Bhebhe M, Bhobho H, Buka F, Charumbira F. Chief, Chiduku R.M. Chief, Chimbudzi A, Chipanga T.S, Chisunga D. Chief,
Chizema C, Dandawa T. Chief, Gampu S, Chief, Goto R, Gwenzi D.
Chief, Hungwe J.D, Jadagu G.T, Machaya J.M.K, Machingaifa T,
Mahofa S.B, Makwarimba C, Maluleke O, Manyeruke J, Marozva M.P. Chief, Masendu S. Chief, Mashavakure N, Masuku A, Mathuthu T.A,
Matiirira A, Mavhunga M, Mawire J, Mkhwebu A, Mohadi T.B, Moyo,
S.K, Mtshane Chief, Mugabe T, Mumbengegwi S.S, Mupfumira P,
Murwira T, Musaka M.B, Musarurwa E.M. Chief, Muzenda T.V, Nebiri
Chief, Nembire C. Chief, Ngungubane M. Chief, Ntabeni M. Chief,
Nyambuya M.R, Nyamukoho S. Chief, Nyangazonke V. N. Chief,
Parirenyatwa P.D, Shiri A, Siansali N.S. Chief, Tawengwa C
Tellers: Hon. Sen. Mumvuri and Hon. Sen. Mohadi
NOES 19: Chimanikire A, Chimhini A, Khumalo D.T, Komichi
M, Mabhugu F.E, Makore J, Marava M, Moeketsi V, Muronzi M, Ncube
S, Ndhlovu J, Nyathi R, Shoko G, Sibanda A, Sibanda B, Sinampande
H.M, Timveos L,
Tellers: Hon. Sen. Mlotshwa and Hon. Sen. Marava Bill read the third time.
THE VICE PRESIDENT AND MINISTER OF JUSTICE, LEGAL AND PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (HON. E. D.
MNANGANGWA): Madam President, I rise to thank the Hon. Senators
for their contribution to this debate relating to the Constitution of Zimbabwe Amendment (No. 1) Bill. I thank both those whose contribution was against the Bill as well as those whose contribution was in support of the Bill. At the end of the day Madam President, in our Commonwealth Parliamentary Democracy, under our democratic process, we accept that we do not expect everybody to agree with the passage of Bills, but the majority always prevails and that is a democratic process which we have adopted as a country.
I would like to thank Hon. Members who have remained in the Chamber for their resilience, support, understanding and progressive application in particular, the understanding that the Constitution is not cast in stone when the people feel there is need to amend the
Constitution to accord it with the dictates of the requirements to run Government or to serve economic, social, or political interest, and we here in the Chamber, represent the nation. We are the people’s representatives. So, we should not feel that when we do these things, we are just doing it because there is need is to do it. It is because we are implementing the desires of our people.
I therefore, wish to thank Hon. Senators as I did in the Lower House where we voted. Yes of course, we had expected to exceed two thirds, but we have people outside the country who are not here who I know would have supported the Bill. For those Hon. Senators who have left the Chamber, they have a democratic right to be absent and that should not put any dent of negativity to the process that has happened because Members are allowed to make their decisions democratically, whether the move is wrong or right that is not important. Each individual has a right to exercise his/her feelings.
So, I am happy Madam President that this is the first time we have amended our newly adopted Constitution. It is a landmark in our history that we are able, when we feel that there is need, to adjust our
Constitution to comply with the needs of the nation that we can do it. We can do it bravely, openly, democratically and freely. This is what has happened and this is what we have achieved but, I realised that some Hon. Senators have also come back. It is also their right to go out and then come back. – [HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.] - This is part of how democracy...
HON. SEN. MLOTSHWA: On a point of order Madam
President. I do not think the Minister is too ridiculous because coming back has nothing to do with the Bill. Thank you very much. – [HON.
SENATORS: Inaudible interjections.] -
THE HON. PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE: It is not a point of
order Hon. Senator.
HON. E. D. MNANGAGWA: I am very grateful that the going
out had no relation to the passing of the Bill, but I am also correct that some people went out and they have come back. So, it is a matter of fact. – [HON. SENATORS: Hear, hear.]- By that same token, I say thank you Hon. Senators. – [HON. SENATORS: Hear, hear.]-
PERSONAL EXPLANATION
MATTER OF PRIVILEGE RAISED ON THE QUESTION OF
SCHOOL DEVELOPMENT COMMITTEES
THE MINISTER OF PRIMARY AND SECONDARY
EDUCATION (HON. DR. DOKORA): Thank you Madam President. I
seek your authority to make a personal explanation as provided for in
Standing Order No. 89 in respect of a Matter of Privilege on the proposed charges of contempt of Parliament on allegation of misrepresentation of fact in this hon. House on the 12th of July, 2017 by
Hon. Sen. Tholakele D. Khumalo. I note that motion and wish to state unreservedly that may be I was misunderstood during my response to the motion on the alignment of the Education Act to the Constitution
brought to this House on the 17th of May, 2017.
Madam President, my explanation before this House on the transfer of SDC funds to the SSF account on the 15th of June, 2017 was not actuated by any malice intended to demean this House, in particular Hon. Sen. Tholakele D. Khumalo. I say so because when I stated that I have no instrument to transfer the money to SSF account, my conscience was clear in that regard and never thought anything to the contrary may have been happening on the ground. There is no Secretary’s Circular shown to me and written to the effect that the SDC funds should be transferred to the SSF Account.
I am of the same mind with Hon. Sen. Tholakele D. Khumalo’s sentiments and to quote her from the Hansard of 17th May, 2017 when she said “Madam President, it is clear that there are inconsistencies inherent in the Education Act, 2006, Section 8(1to 5) regarding this issue…” This is why I also mentioned that I will bring the Bill before this House for debate. That some funds were indeed transferred to the SSF Account does not make it correct Madam President since my
Ministry is seized with the alignment of the Education Act to the Constitution and all Statutory Instruments including the ones on school governance which created SDCs and SDAs.
However, allow me to say, as Hon. Members are aware, Madam President, following recommendations of the Presidential Commission of Inquiry into Education and Training Report (CIET, 1999) and the consultations of 2014 with the entire nation, which peaked on 28
November, our entire citizenry was invited to the nearest of any of our 8 500 schools in the country to share their expectations of the proposed new curriculum. We also used community halls and other spaces. We now have in place the new Primary and Secondary Education Curriculum Framework, 2015 to 2022. The successful implementation of this Curriculum Framework requires a number of fundamentals to be in place, so that the objectives of achieving learning outcomes in the form of relevant skills, knowledge and values are attained by all learners.
Madam President, among those essentials, which are clearly articulated in the Curriculum Framework, is an enabling legal and regulatory framework. Others, as you may remember, include teacher capacity development, teacher professional standards and infrastructure development. It is accepted as fact that the current legal and regulatory framework was not intended for the ease of implementation of the current Curriculum Framework and even predates our current Constitution of the Republic. Therefore, aligning the Education Act to the Constitution is a necessary step.
The Primary and Secondary Education Sector Plan, 2016-2020 enunciates clearly the imperative of a sustainable funding strategy in order to realise the objectives of the curriculum. This august House may recall, Madam President, that the issue of effective funding strategies for schools is not new, and that in the late eighties (80’s) the nation had a situation where all parents of learners in Government schools deposited the tuition fees at the nearest Post Office destined for Treasury, which would disburse to schools upon fulfillment of particular application requirements. There was a similar situation in respect of Council schools, which collected fees from learners and deposited the entire fees into one account at Council.
To cut the long story short Madam President, the nation witnessed schools suffering significant infrastructural deterioration with no new buildings that could be constructed, despite the massive enrolment following our Education for All Policy at independence. In fact, the number of secondary schools increased by over 1000%. The new secondary schools, which had been ‘upper topped’ at primary schools, in order to rapidly meet the welcome tide of learners who were happily pouring out of the primary school, could not relocate to their own premises owing to lack of resources. The majority of these secondary schools had long outlived their welcome at the primary schools they were initially hosted at, since the structures they occupied were also needed by the primary schools themselves. The temporary arrangement of ‘Upper Tops’ was threatening to become permanent.
It is against this background and other realities that Government introduced reforms which included the retention of fees to be used at source both for Government and Council schools. In order to maximize on support from the communities, Government came up with Statutory Instruments for the creation of School Development Committees (SDCs) and School Development Associations (SDAs) with the intention of creating legal space for communities and parents to become vital participants in the development of their schools. I want to take this opportunity to salute the pioneer SDCs and SDAs and those who followed after them.
All ‘upper topped’ secondary schools have since constructed their own infrastructure and moved to their own premises. They have been supported by Government through building-grants-in-aid and per capita grants. However, among a few challenges, there has been a new phenomenon, perhaps not originally anticipated, of SDCs and SDAs that sometimes are deciding on priorities that may not respond to the most urgent education needs of the communities. An example I would like to give, Madam President, is the province which is the subject of this statement, Harare Metropolitan Province. There is currently not a single primary school in Harare Metropolitan Province, to the best of my knowledge, which is able to enroll all the ECD learners who desire to
join it.
Almost all primary schools have much fewer learners at ECD B Level, for example, than the enrolment at Grade One Level. One school which has ECD learners whose number is 50% of its Grade One enrolment, has recently purchased a bus for US$200 000. Part of this amount is a loan and the school and SDA will be meeting a loan repayment obligation for years to come. Many schools and SDCs and SDAs have defaulted on repayments and the Ministry has been engaged in numerous legal battles to protect school property that service providers will be seeking to attach.
A recent matter in Mutasa District relates to the wholesale removal of all furniture from a school on account of an employment dispute between the SDC and its clerk. This experience has brought one new reality not originally anticipated, the SDCs and SDAs are making financial commitments with service providers, yet when they default in meeting their financial obligations, it is the Minister of Primary and
Secondary Education that is cited in court papers as first respondent.
Some SDCs and SDAs now enjoy sizeable perks which include sitting allowance, fuel allowance, and cell phone allowances to mention some. The area of procurement has presented the greatest challenge, with one of the publicised cases being that of a school that overpaid for a bus by over US$60 000 and the goods provider was asked to refund the US$60 000 to the account of the SDA Chairperson. Meanwhile, all the parents of the school were made to believe that the bus had cost the amount included in the overpayment.
Madam President, as we seek to prepare our learners for life and work, we have obligation as a nation, to ensure that no stone is left unturned to achieve the best results possible. The frontier work is an Education Amendment Bill that speaks, among other things, to the funding of Primary and Secondary Education. Our hope and expectation is that Honourable Members of this august House will debate and help shape the Bill in the best interest of our learners who invest so much time in school, the generality of parents who sacrifice so much and he nation that deserves well-equipped school graduates who shall make their imprint in the socio-economic development of our nation.
I would like to confirm that the issue of SDA funds being deposited into the School Services Fund (SSF) Account is currently not provided for in current statutes. I would also like to confirm that many parties, including SDCs, were engaged as part of inclusive efforts to gather relevant data to contribute to the amendment process of the Education Act and its alignment to the Constitution.
The issue of requesting SDA funds to be deposited into the SSF Account is premature. I made my statement with the information that I had at the time. I stand guided, Madam President, but I believe the time for Hon. Members to input into what you want as the representatives of the people is when we bring the draft Bill in the next Session of
Parliament. It has since been brought to my attention that indeed, some schools did transfer the SDC funds into the SSF fund prematurely. The issue will be addressed.
Through you Madam President, I would like to apologise unreservedly to Hon. Sen. Tholakele D. Khumalo and to this august House if my response was construed to be demeaning of the Hon. Member and this august House. The truth is far from it; I am actually campaigning for a robust debate on the Amendment Bill when it arrives on the floor of this House. I thank you Madam President for the opportunity to speak.
THE HON. PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE: Thank you Hon.
Minister. Debate is not allowed on a personal explanation. However, I will allow Hon. Senators to ask questions for clarification if there are any.
HON. SEN. MLOTSHWA: Thank you Madam President. May I
ask these questions to the Minister. I thank you Minister for to coming to clarify to the House with the statement that you have made. However, I would like to know which component of the fees that is paid by parents to schools which his Ministry was eying in his new reforms. This is because we want to know what is coming, in case he says there are schools which have already paid funds to Government Service Account. It is because maybe there was a Circular because schools cannot just boldly go and pay. What made them do that? Maybe Minister, you can clarify again because you have your Permanent Secretary at times announcing things like the closure of schools in Matabeleland but it was said it was bolted before it was supposed to. Maybe it is the same system. So, I want clarity to know what you discussed in your Ministry with your Permanent Secretary and your staff that, which component of the fees do you think you are eyeing to have?
THE MINISTER OF PRIMARY AND SECONDARY
EDUCATION (HON. DR. DOKORA): I thank the Hon. Senator for the question and I thank you for indulging me Madam President. I thought that the best guide for us into the future is to actually deal with the particular clauses when they come here; because quite clearly for me, I have not come here with the Draft Bill to say this particular clause will be up for discussion, which might again lead to other misconceptions. My best guide is to say, when we bring the Bill, we will go through it clause by clause. I want your best guide on this one because we know that we have to build schools – how shall we do it.
Thank you.
HON. SEN. KHUMALO: Thank you Madam President. I need
clarity on the issue of saying I brought this from the media and it is not happening. That is why I felt very bad. It says, I brought this motion from the media. Can he explain – did I get it from the media or the schools are depositing their money into the account. Can he explain that because that is what is written in the Hansard.
HON. DR. DOKORA: I m trying to understand because I thought I put my unreserved apologies for any misunderstanding and I do not know what else I could say.
HON. SEN. KHUMALO: Point taken and he also understands
where I am coming from that the schools are already doing it. I was not taking it from the air but the schools are already depositing their money into the account.
HON. DR. DOKORA: Madam President, that is precisely why I
said that the issue will be addressed – that last point that the Hon. Senator has made. Thank you.
THE HON. PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE: Before we
adjourn, I would like to thank the Hon. Minister and appreciate the fact that he has taken time to come and explain because we had questions Hon. Minister, some of us were a bit upset and not so open to accepting the way you had explained then. So, it is appreciated that you have come to explain yourself to the Hon. Senator and to the House. Thank you.
HON. SEN. MUMVURI: Madam President, on a point of order.
I just want to ask him to clarify now because last time, it was said that this debate has been ….
THE HON. PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE: No, no, order,
order. The reason that the Minister came to explain is because we were going to set up a Committee of Inquiry or something like that. So, he has explained and I think the mover has accepted. So, we are not setting up the Committee of Privileges; it is done and we cannot debate. Sorry Hon. Sen. Mumvuri, we are done with this topic.
HON. SEN. MUMVURI: Madam President, but the motion still
stands on the Order Paper, so we are going to debate on it. That is what I am simply saying.
THE HON. PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE: It is up to the
Hon. Member. I will discuss it with the Hon. Member, and it is up to her. She has to move to drop the motion if she wants because it is her motion.
HON. SEN. KHUMALO: On the issue of funds, are the funds
now going to go back because that is the issue that they sent me to come and discuss. Are their funds now going back to their rightful accounts?
HON. DR. DOKORA: Thank you Madam President. I have a
whole army of civil servants who work in the system. So, when I gave the undertaking here to say that the matter will be addressed, I must now go to the technocrats to look at that scenario. I could not give any other kind of response here beyond what I can shape as policy. Thank you.
HON. SEN. KHUMALO: Thank you Madam President.
Because I am expecting these people who sent me to say, should we put our money in the rightful place or not, when I leave here, I am going to tell them to say you can have your money back and put it in your correct account.
HON. DR. DOKORA: If I make the statement as I have just made to say the matter will be addressed, I want to stand by the meaning of every one of those words in that statement. Thank you.
On the motion of THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF ENERGY AND POWER DEVELOPMENT (HON. SEN. MUZENDA), the
Senate adjourned at Twenty Minutes to Five o’clock p.m.
PARLIAMENT OF ZIMBABWE
Wednesday 2nd August, 2017
The Senate met at Half-past Two o’clock p.m.
PRAYERS
(THE HON. PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE in the Chair)
ANNOUNCEMENT BY THE HON. PRESIDENT OF THE
SENATE
REMINDER TO A CLEAN-UP CAMPAIGN
THE HON. PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE: I wish to remind
the Hon. Senators that there will be a clean-up campaign for Harare Central Business District, tomorrow, Thursday, 3rd August, 2017 from 1000hrs to 1300 hours.
MOTION
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
THE MINISTER OF STATE FOR MATEBELELAND
NORTH PROVINCE (HON. SEN. MATHEMA: Madam President, I
move that Order of the Day, Number 1 be stood over until the rest of the Orders of Day on the Order Paper are disposed of.
Motion put and agreed to.
THE HON. PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE: Before I call the
Clerk to read the Second Order of the Day, I wish to appeal to Hon.
Senators who have not concluded their motions particularly the private Members’ ones, to conclude their motions by tomorrow, otherwise they will just fall away and that will not give them the credence that the motions deserve. This is for private Members’ motions and not the Committee Reports because with Committee Reports, we hope Ministers will come and respond. Besides, with Committee reports, when we do come back for the next session, they will be put back on the Order Paper but the others will not, they will just fall away.
MOTION
REPORT OF THE PRIVILEGES COMMITTEE ON DEATH THREATS TO MEMBERS OF THE MDC-T PARTY
Second Order read: Adjourned debate on motion on the Report of the Privileges Committee on Death Threats to Members of the MDC-T Party.
Question again proposed.
*HON. SEN. MARAVA: Thank you Madam President. I want to thank Hon. Sen. Chief Charumbira and his Committee for bringing up this report. We know we have had such experiences in the past and they have just gone by unnoticed but as for this one, we have felt it is necessary that this should be debated in this House. Madam President, I always make my contributions in this House to say people of Zimbabwe are very few and there are times whereby we may be extinct if we are not careful. We are very few. Madam President, even the person who was sending the threats to Hon. Members is a Zimbabwean and was sending these threats to the people of Zimbabwe; yet, the people of Zimbabwe are not even ten million, for them to share the assets and of capital in Zimbabwe. There is nothing as good as sharpening your knife so that you slaughter a chicken. Contrary to that, if one is to sharpen a knife so that they want to murder you or cut your throat, that is when you will see that really sharpening a knife is not a pleasure. Madam President, what happens at times is not very pleasant. Whenever somebody is sharpening a knife, there is that adrenalin which gets into the chicken that it is going to be slaughtered for the visitors who will have come at home. Whoever is preparing for war against his people, this is very bad.
In the last general elections, we had a hung Parliament which showed that there was no party which had a clear majority but they had to work as a hung Parliament and they managed to progress. Now, we happened to be in the minority but we were being bullied. How would you feel if you are being bullied because you win some of these games and you lose some? Are we forced to be docile because when we talk they say we are attacking corruption. Whoever this person who sent these messages should know that if you attack one, you have attacked us all because we are one in fighting this corruption. I am begging Senators in this august House, if any one of us has been attacked, please let us all raise our voices and protect that person. What more if we have more than 20 people who are being threatened with violence and extinction, I am begin to wonder what has happened to the people of Zimbabwe. We now have this demon which has surfaced in the country.
When we remove the youths and children, you will notice that the only people who are at each other’s throats are only 4 million and when you compare this with Nigeria which has 40 million people, you will notice that they are living in peace. South Africa has 65 million people but again they are living peacefully. Hon. Senators, let us research and know these things which are really happening. Zimbabwe is a land of milk and honey - all we want is to leave in peace and harmony. Let us cast aside all those issues which bring division and animosity amongst the people of Zimbabwe.
I really fail to understand anybody who has sleepless nights hurting somebody who belongs to the other side. You hurt somebody who belongs to ZANU PF but basically all these people are Zimbabweans whether you belong to that party or not, you belong to Zimbabwe. When you agree to let somebody put you into a fight against your fellow person, that means you are of low thinking. Your capacity is very low. As people of Zimbabwe, we need to perform to the best of our ability. We have you Madam President, you are calm and cool headed but you manage to control us. We are a very mature august House because of your guidance. We are level headed and we do not have those partisan fights. We are all one because we are fighting for the progress and development of Zimbabwe.
Whosoever may want to go astray will be somebody who is a thicket who does not understand the teachings which you give us Madam President. We need to operate as one. Whenever one Senator passes on, whether you belong to ZANU PF or to MDC, we are united in that funeral and we support the bereaved. What really surprises me is that whenever a tiny issue erupts there is a misunderstanding. There are demons which have to be exorcised and I think let us behave as one. Let us remove these demons which are threatening to set us apart. This demon is so disruptive that it attacks any one of us. I thank you.
*HON. SEN. KOMICHI: Thank you Madam President for giving
me the opportunity to make my contribution on this motion. Thank you Hon. Sen. Chief Charumbira for the report and thank you Hon. Sen. Masuku for bringing such an essential motion in this House. Let me start by appreciating the Hon. Senators for debating this pertinent issue in this House. I am also grateful to you my fellow parliamentarians for debating this issue with cool heads. My wish is that, let us continue holding such debates in a mature manner.
Let us unite and respect each other as leaders of this country regardless of our political affiliation. We need to view each other as one and have the progress of the country at heart so that we avoid the unnecessary fights. I am sure as Hon. Senators, if you can uphold such personalities and such cultures, the people who are causing these fights and misunderstandings will be ashamed and they may repent because they will see that we are cool headed. We are people of Zimbabwe who have been independent for such a long time and we should know that whenever we are holding such debates, we should not do them according to partisan lines but we should be together.
We crafted the Constitution of Zimbabwe which is enshrining the democracy of Zimbabwe. The democracy that we uphold means that whenever people are in a country, they can belong to any political party and they can elect a leader whom they want because that is democracy. On the contrary, we have some people who are fighting against the Constitution and they fight this Constitution which was crafted by the people of Zimbabwe supported by the 3.2 million and assented to by His
Excellency, the President and it is now a legal document.
When we want to fulfill some of the requirements of this Constitution that we hold democratic elections in a free and fair atmosphere, there are some people who are really against that. When we talk about democracy, it means we have freedom of expression and we would be following the international trends where democracy and parliamentarians say people should be free to express their feelings. We know there are some people who are against this democracy. Whenever somebody is talking about what their feelings are and expressing themselves, they feel that there should be an offence. This is caused by some acts such as the disappearance of Itai Dzamara and the arson attack on Mumvuri Bar. This is done by people who cannot accept opposition. I am saying as the people of Zimbabwe if we want to nip this in the bud, the President of the country should take a number of days to hold discussions with people, advising them that he wants peace in the country. The President does not believe in violence. We believe that if His Excellency, can continue talking about peace in the country, definitely peace will prevail. If this peace message can be handed over to officials such as the Commissioner of Police, whoever perpetrates violence will be arrested.
*THE HON. PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE: Hon. Senator,
you are making assumptions that what you are debating is not happening. I do not think we can work like that.
*HON. SEN. KOMICHI: Madam President, I am putting an emphasis so that we appreciate what was said by His Excellency when he addressed the youth rally in Lupane, talking of peace in the country. I personally believe that the President is an influential person, whatever he says, people will listen. The information on peace should be disseminated to all facets of the country, to all organisations in the country and we need to emphasise that.
*HON. SEN. CHIPANGA: On a point of order! Madam
President, I thought what we are debating in this House was a report which was introduced by Hon. Sen. Chief Charumbira, and I thought it was a by-partisan Committee which had to put some recommendations which we are going to debate. So, I think we should be supporting this Committee and I have got a feeling that some of my fellow members are now digressing from that report.
*THE HON. PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE: Thank you Hon.
Sen. Chipanga.
*HON. SEN. KOMICHI: Madam President, may I please debate
on the President’s speech because he is also my President, who is an eloquent man, a peaceful man, yet we have got some rubble rousers who are going to misinterpret some of these speeches and go against the
President’s Speech. My intention is to expose these rubble rousers, these trouble makers, these gangsters and they are the same people who are disturbing peace in the country. I definitely know that His
Excellency, President R. G. Mugabe, will never send anybody to go and attack Komichi but he is a well disciplined man who will seek for ways of getting good guidance to Hon. Komichi. I appreciate the constructive debates which are being undertaken by people in this House who belong to both parties which are in this august House.
I am heaping praises on our police because they are hard working and intelligent. Whenever you commit a crime, they will definitely carry out investigations and arrest you. I am pleading with the police to definitely carry out thorough investigations and apprehend these demons who are causing havoc in the country. I am sure, if they can arrest one or two, definitely, all this violence and misunderstanding will come to an end. Even if it is Hon. Sen. Komichi who is involved in rubble rousing, he should be arrested and there will be peace in the. What we want is for people to express themselves freely without fear of any reprisals or any attacks.
Zimbabwe is a land of milk and honey. Zimbabwe is a country of development and a lovely nation. At times when we are holding some of these debates, we carry on with some criticism which maybe, at times are unnecessary, destructive criticism, instead of constructive criticism.
I am hoping that in the next Session of our Parliament which is going to opened soon, there will not be any member who is going to receive some threats of violence from whosever because we will be living in peace. We will still be having our peace Committee chaired by Hon. Sen. Chief Charumbira and Members of Parliament should be free to debate and make their contributions. We have heard of a saying that, whenever you are in a situation, do not be afraid of being confronted by what is happening because of your position. As leaders we should be shock absorbers of problems which could be happening. We also know that the President is also aware that in Parliament he has some constructive and some demagogue members; he knows his people. Therefore, we should make constructive contributions, proffer constructive criticism and be tolerance of divergent views, and nobody should be sending out threats so that they destroy progressive debate in the House.
*HON. SEN. CHIMHINI: Thank you Madam President. I have
stood up to thank the Committee for the report, especially the recommendations which were put forward. I believe that if we follow them religiously, it would help us in the future. We say that Zimbabwe is a very peaceful country. If we argue, some people will not believe it but if we look at the report that was given, if we are saying Zimbabwe is a peaceful country, then we are not being truthful to ourselves. Many times if you are using threatening words - that will end up in reality when people injure each other or some die. There is a big lesson that we learn from the report, that these threatening words should be looked down upon by everyone.
As a Zimbabwean, now I am afraid that if someone is threatening other people and it is known that it has been said but we do not know who the perpetrator is, it is very frightening. The report is saying that those who investigated could not pin-point the person who did it. This means the person will still continue doing it. What I do not know is that the recommendations that were given - are we able to catch the culprits? If not, we are now preparing for elections, when people are being threatened, a lot happens. If I am threatened, I will be afraid to express my views, even during the election time, I will not be at liberty to choose my candidate, because I would have been threatened.
I think from the recommendations, we should not put aside this case but we should strive to bring the culprit to book. I have heard the former Senator who talked about tolerance, in Zimbabwe if we have different views, it is now a problem because I have to threaten people so that they remain quiet. I implore the Committee that came up with the report including the police and the Government, I think we should investigate further for the perpetrators to be apprehended. Like what Hon. Sen. Komichi has said, our police force is very professional, if they want, they can bring the culprit to book.
So, we should not take this report lightly, if we do not take any action it will continue because these threats come as a result of wanting people not to be democratic. If we put our heads together, we can bring the culprit to book. Thank you.
*HON. SEN. CHIFAMBA: Thank you Madam President. We
want to thank Hon. Sen. Chief Charumbira for the report of the investigations that were made in that report. However, what we are saying is that these people should be brought to book because if people continue to be threatened, it would go ahead and end up with some people dying. Reading from the newspapers, in Kenya someone received a death threat and within a few days the person was found dead with an arm missing.
We can appear as cry babies because it is the people from this side who received those threatening messages. It is nice when it is happening to the other side but when it comes into your house then you know that it is painful. We are pained because this happened to our children. If our children are receiving death threats, it means we are not independent at all. We should be independent in our movement and in our speech.
I think the investigations should continue because this can happen to anyone. It is very painful to hear that someone died or has disappeared. We do not want to hear people crying that they also have received death threats. All of us are afraid of death; the only person who was not afraid of death was Jesus, because he died for the people. I am also afraid of death. It does not end here because it has started and it is going to eliminate many people. So I think this should be traced. This is just in its infancy and it should be corrected before it grows. We can act or say a lot of things – I know you cannot answer back but your body language is saying quite a lot. It is very true, when it happens to you, you will know the gravity of the matter. Let us just look at it as people because all of us were created in the image of God. When God finished creating the people he said I have created man in my own image.
A life was lost in Kenya because of these death threats. Of course, it has not happened in Zimbabwe but it can end that way. It means that person has craft, so we want to think that as you have debated, the culprits are now aware. I think they should just end there because lives are very important. Each and everyone’s life is very important. It is only animals that can lose their lives any time because they are edible. The blood of people is precious. So, I think the way we value ourselves is the way we should value other people’s lives. With these few words Madam President, I thank you.
*HON. SEN. MAKORE: Thank you Madam President for this important time of the Senators who are supposed to give counsel to Parliament. I also want to thank Hon. Sen. Chief Charumbira for the work that he has done. As the President of the Chiefs Council, it was all befitting that he should be involved, because this has something to do with Parliament. In Shona, the elders say, a thing that starts small, will destroy big things. It is small when you look at it but you see a lot of people talking about it because this attacks the institution of Parliament, which we think is sacred when we look at it.
Parliamentarians want to hear that they are safe when they are here because of the Privileges and Immunities. They should not be abused.
They should be given opportunity to say things that build Parliament.
We really want to thank the Chief for the work that they did which was full of wisdom, although they could not pin the culprits down. All the service providers could not get the person, which means that this issue was not solved at all. This is because the people who received the death threats do not know about their security.
We want to say that as people in this House, we should be responsible and also that we are safe. It can happen to anyone of us because this is not a political thing. When we are here, we do not belong to a political party but we belong to the Government. Therefore, I should enjoy my privileges in this House. If I do not get them I will complain. I am complete as I stand here and what I say should be listened to. Where I come from, there are people whom I represent, so this is not a good thing. It is not bad for the people who received the threats only but for all of us. This is because when it comes to violence, we knew about violence but now we are past the war zone. We should be building the nation. We should not come here and be yes people only because it does not help anyone.
We used to read a book in Shona which says “Ini ndini, iwe ndiwe” and that is the biggest philosophy of the time. If we all become one person, it means you no longer exist. So the expressions which say you should do what I am doing are not good. We should engage in nation building so that we build one another. Many times we can lie low but it does not mean that we do not see that you would have taken someone’s rights and it is a bad thing. We should respect one another as elderly people so that we can give counsel to the young. We know that there is moral decadence that when they are here in Parliament, they want to remain partisan but we want to depend on you as a builder. Thank you Madam President.
*HON. SEN. MABUGU: Thank you Madam President for according me this opportunity to add my voice on this report which was presented by Hon. Sen. Chief Charumbira. This is really a sad report that there are people who are receiving death threats. As the nation of Zimbabwe, we should speak freely and we say that our country is peaceful because when things are like this, we are tarnishing our country badly because if this is allowed, it means that it is good when it is happening to other people, but when it happens to you, it is bad. We can laugh when it is happening to someone and you forget that tomorrow you will be in those shoes as well. If this had happened to the powers that be, will the culprit not be brought to book? I think this should come to an end because if you say the person is not known, like us in the opposition, it means now we are living in fear because we will be thinking that maybe tomorrow it will be me. There is no freedom of speech as we say. If you contribute constructively, tomorrow you will receive threats. It is very frightening.
In this House, I think we should only look at the good things and thinking that probably it might be me tomorrow. Let us not step on each other’s feet. This should be investigated thoroughly and fairly and not using nepotism. I think we should do justice to everyone because we are all Zimbabweans and we also want to be treated the same. How can we say we have freedom because everyone is free to choose who they want? You cannot force people to buy clothes that they do not want. If people are being forced to do what they do not want, it means that there is no freedom at all. If we want to be truthful, all of us are afraid. So, bad things should be talked as they are. With these few words, I want to thank you Madam President.
*HON. SEN. MAWIRE: Thank you Madam President. I want to take this opportunity to add a few words. I do not want to dwell much on this issue because I can digress and this will affect this good report. Listening to the words that were said by Hon. Sen. Chief Charumbira, I think there were recommendations that were given. If we heard about the recommendations, I do not think they said the issue ended there. They said on the investigations that they did, nothing was found, but their investigations are continuing to bring the culprits to book. What I want to remind some of my Hon. Senators is that we should be mindful of our contributions because these issues, we were once involved in handling them. It might be an in-house thing. – [HON. SENATORS:
Inaudible interjections.]-
An Hon. Member having risen on a point of order.
THE HON. PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE: Order, Wait until
I finish what I want to say. If you remember I have reprimanded this one when he was insinuating and was looking at those Hon. Members. We should not think otherwise. This issue was raised by the chief and so, the chief does not belong to ZANU PF or to MDC. – [HON. SENATORS: Inaudible interjections.]-
Order please! He leads Zimbabweans. So, as we debate this issue which was raised by the chief, let us not blame each other. Let us analyse the issue as it is before us. We do not want to provoke each other and we cannot actually pick on each other. We have to address the issue. When I was reprimanding those Hon. Senators, I was not infringing on anyone’s rights, but we want to help each other so that we balance what is happening, so that when the chief is concluding the issue, at least we would have given him our side of the story.
*HON. SEN. MAWIRE: Thank you Madam President. It is only that people started interjecting. Now let us speak as elders. We should bring counsel and try to build as Hon. Sen. Marava and Hon. Sen.
Makore has alluded to because we are a House of mature people. Peace has been there for long since 1980. We were talking about peace and democracy. That is why we are here and debating as we are doing. We want the culprits to be brought to book because in the report, we heard that they investigated thoroughly that the way the messages came through was that they were brought through computers. This is the work of the enemy who wants to disturbilise us. So, we support that this issue should be investigated thoroughly. Thank you Madam President.
+HON. SEN. NCUBE: Thank you Madam President for affording me this opportunity. I wish to add my voice to this report that was brought before this House on the issue of intimidation of MDC-T
Members of Parliament. We heard the report that was brought by Hon. Sen. Chief Charumbira. I would like to thank all those who have debated before me. I will not repeat what has already been said. What I would like to add is that personally, I am not satisfied with the findings that came out on this issue. I am not satisfied with the fact that these people who were making these threats cannot be found. This country and the technology that we have and also the police can investigate such cases, I do not think it is possible that they can fail to find who those people are. What I would like to say in short, is that, it is not the first time and it is not only MDC-T Members who are being intimidated. People might think that because today it is the MDC-T which has been threatened, but it can happen that next time it will be them.
I read in the newspaper that Hon. Minister Makhosini was once threatened. There was an envelope that had a bullet in it, he is not an MDC-T Member of Parliament but he is from ZANU PF, but he is a Member of Parliament and representing people. Madam President, last week, a Member of Parliament from ZANU PF from the National Assembly, Hon. Mudambo was assaulted by the police, he was beaten severely. They only stopped after he had told them that he was a
Member of Parliament and they said that that was what they wanted.
When they beat him up, they thought it was Hon. Saruwaka from MDCT. Madam Predident, what I am saying is something that happened last week. All this is bad and this is what we are trying to rectify here. If something is bad, it is bad and it has to be investigated thoroughly so that we know who those people are who are threatening others because next time they see you, they will mistake you for me and assault you thinking that it is me.
What I mean is that, I do not think the whole country can fail to find the contact numbers of those people who are threatening others. I do not think that it is possible. Proper investigations have to be made. Hon. Sen. Chief Charumbira, I am not happy with this issue. This is not something that can just go by just like that in this country Zimbabwe? No, that is not possible. That can never happen here. I do not want to say that it is a lie, I am saying that if people were to really go out and look for those people, they will find them before end of the day. I do not think that people can do such an act on the phone or internet and we fail to find them, I do not think it is possible.
Someone threatened someone using a private number. He went to Telecel, he did not go to the police, but this is a very serious issue. Here we are talking about a Member of Parliament. If we say that the issue was taken to Telecel, Econet and other places and all those law abiding citizens, but they found out who the owner of that private number was and the person was found. If we were to take your phone and say that someone has been threatening you, they will investigate and find him. Let us investigate further. I do not think they are prepared at the moment to really dig deep because here in Zimbabwe if they really want to investigate, they will find the culprit.
Madam President, long back before independence, we used to say that when we get our independence, we will live like proper Zimbabweans, real Africans. However, that is not it, people have different tastes. Hon. Sen. Makore said out who he is but if you think you want to be someone else, then you have a problem. What I am saying is that we as MDC Members, the good thing is that we chat and have good relations with people from ZANU PF. However, in the past, there used to be tension between the two parties, people would be quarelling. When we went to COPAC, there was tension but with time, we ended up getting used to each other. As it is, if I see my neighbour’s child being assaulted, I cannot just leave him, but I intervene to stop that. That is what we are saying here. It is not good for others not to be happy, this is our country as well. Anything can happen, tomorrow it can be us who are governing this country. I remember that even Smith used to say ‘never’ in his life time, would Africans rule this country, but now Zimbabweans are ruling themselves. Blacks are running this country. Let us not treat others like animals or say others are better off than others. With those few words Madam President, I thank you.
HON. SEN. NYATHI: Thank you Hon. President for affording me this opportunity. I also want to thank Hon. Sen. Chief Charumbira for bringing in such an important issue. Madam President, what I would like to say is that Zimbabwe is known as a Christian country first and foremost. Threatening someone with death because of their choice, I do not think it is something good because each one is free to choose what he/she wants. You cannot choose something for someone and anyone can choose and follow whatever they want and it is not an offence. No one should try and find out why you have chosen that.
Madam President, I will give an example; here in Zimbabwe, there are some people who get into polygamy marriages or some children who do not have both parents but if something goes missing, you do not chastise someone who does not have a mother present, we chastise because that child’s mother passed away. We are here as leaders and we must lead by example.
There are times when we enjoy harmonious relationships but when it comes to election time, this mood just gets into people and the mood just changes but this should not be the case. People should be left to choose whatever they want to choose and we should let them stand by what they choose. We should not critise and we should not ask questions why they have opposed what someone else chose because we cannot all choose the same thing. People should not be made to follow what others have chosen because they are afraid to be threatened. Even if you have five or so children, one child can go to a Pentecostal church, one can go to Methodist and the other one can go to the other church.
You cannot deny that child’s right or choice to go to whatever church.
You cannot say that you are no longer my child because you are now going to a Pentecostal church.
Madam President, I am saying here in this august House, we are talking as leaders. We talk as if we do the right things and at times we forget that we are not just leaders in this House but we are leaders out there. We should show the people out there that what we say here is what we practice so that people and children will listen to us because that is not done by young children. What I do not understand is that we have also spoken about experts here in Zimbabwe and I do not think that when those MDC people were threatened, I find it difficult to say that they cannot trace who did that because we do have qualified experts.
Madam President, my request is that as Government, we should accept that this is happening and let us not say it is alright if it is happening to others and when it is happening to you, you now want everyone’s help because things can change and it can happen to anyone.
Madam President, it is really painful because we all have children.
It is bad that people are threatened in that manner because when they say that these people cannot be found, it will lead to some more people disappearing and we cannot continue saying that it is not true, that is a lie and there is nothing like that. Or, if we continue saying that those people cannot be found because the culprits are actually hearing that, but we have been talking a lot in this House and nothing has happened. It should be made clear that if that person is caught, he or she should be punished severely.
The Government should look into this because they are saying that they are still investigating the issue further We want them to investigate thoroughly because we want to hear that those people who are threatening others have been caught because some people no longer feel free and they are no longer able to do what they want to do freely. This is our country and we are all Zimbabweans – I should not be made to feel frightened. We should all be free because we all fought for this country – Zimbabwe. With those few words, I thank you.
*HON. SEN. CHIPANGA: Thank you Madam President.
Madam President, I want to thank the work that was done by the Committee led by Hon. Sen. Chief Charumbira. I understand that this Committee was not for Hon. Sen. Chief Charumbira only, but all the parties were represented, which means that it as a bipartisan Committee. I want to thank them for the good work that they did. Yes, time has passed but the results that we are getting is that they did a thorough investigation with the aim of bringing the report to this House. They have come in and have showed us how far they have gone, how they deliberated and engaged POTRAZ and the service providers, they failed to find the origination but they did not end there.
They say that as a Committee, a law which deals with cybercrime should be enacted. They said that by September, a law should be in place, which means that as they were doing their investigations, they found that, that is where the gaps were.
They also went further and they said that they have given a deadline to the Commissioner of Police that certain things should be in place. This is only done by a Committee which is dedicated. They did not retract and said that we could not find anything but they went further. What I am hearing from this House Madam President, is showing me that the report which was given by Hon. Sen. Chief Charumbira – we did not get it. I do not want to belittle anyone but it shows that we did not understand the report because if we have understood it, we could be looking at the way forward. If there are any plans that we would want to give, we should be giving them, that as a Committee, we should go this way but as I see it now, it looks like for some people, it is now an opportunity to provoke others that they are illiterate. It is like they are meandering but if they are saying if the President is like this, it means that the President is not interested and that is why he is continuing to happen.
This issue has not been closed yet we do not know who did it. There is someone who wanted to say something and said that you will be provoking others because it looks like it will provoke others but MDC is not only one – now there are so many parties. So now, we do not know. I think that this report should be printed in Shona and Ndebele so that we understand it because if people do not understand and they are equating a faction in a party to a political party, it means the degree of misunderstanding is huge. MDC-T and MDC are not factions, these are political parties. So, equating factions to political parties shows the level of misunderstanding. Let me go further and say that we do not know the origination of these threats until the culprit is brought to book. As it is, we cannot point fingers at each other in this House until we know the culprit.
People seem to be using innuendos and that is what I hear like what people are saying. We do not want to hide behind the finger but if someone is saying that if you sharpen your knife in order to slaughter a chicken – then it would need a Shona person to really understand the import of the message.
*HON. SEN. TIMVEOS: Madam President, when the report was
given, it was said that the messages were saying during the Official Opening of Parliament when the President of the Republic of Zimbabwe who is Robert Gabriel Mugabe comes into the House, we do not want to hear you heckling the President. But then it seems in your contributions, you continue hammering at political parties like MDC-N and MDC. We know that these MDC formations are led by people like Prof Ncube and Mr. Biti respectively. You seem to be targeting a wrong organisation. Madam President, we seek your protection because we are not joking but we are talking about people’s lives.
THE HON. PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE: You are
worsening the situation. We have been debating in harmony but now you are spoiling the whole debate. Let us not do that. Let us not go there.
He is quoting Hon. Sen. Marava about the chicken and whatever. Hon. Sen. Marava did say that. It is not like he is creating it but he is responding. You may continue Hon. Sen. Chipanga.
*HON. SEN. CHIPANGA: You have heard that the political party which is being castigated is said to be ZANU PF and yet I would have thought that once this report has been brought into this august House, we have to debate like people who are mature. We are now accusing ZANU PF as people who sent out these threatening messages.
Whosoever is making any contribution and belongs to ZANU PF should be defending the position which has been taken in this august House. The real point is that we should encourage this bi-partisan committee to keep on investigating and look for this culprit who sent out these threatening messages.
What I am sure of is that our police force is so intelligent and committed that given enough resources they can really apprehend that culprit. The sentiments being echoed in this House are saying the police are not investigating thoroughly because they are partisan and belong to ZANU PF. The report indicated that police and investigation officers were given up to October to give a feedback on their findings in the investigations.
We have heard some Senators who have said if a problem or bereavement does not concern you, you seem not to be bothered at all. According to our culture, if your neighbour is bereaved you go to the wake of that funeral because we know that today you may be in problems but tomorrow it will be your neighbour. Hence you need to support each other especially when you talk of bereavement; nobody is immune from death. The innuendos being echoed in this House are that we have a political party which is supporting these threatening messages. We have people who are saying we were elected by the people to come and represent them and yet we are saying in this august House, nobody should be threatened. We are mature people.
Instead of indulging in personal and political party attacks, let us put our heads together, investigate and research on the source of these threatening messages. It is not just a supposition because as far as politics is concerned, it is a game. Today you could be in the ruling party but tomorrow you will be in the opposition or vice versa. When we have this case we should not be threatening saying to people, okay you have attacked me today because I am in the opposition and when I come into power next time, I am going to fix you; I am going to revenge. This means that whosoever will be in power is going to cling to power at all cost so that nobody comes in.
When we come to the British they talk of Her Majesty Opposition and then there is Her Majesty Government. What this means is that the Queen is the crown ruler and whosoever is governing belongs to the Queen and the opposition is in the Queen. What we are practicing here as an august House is not proper politics. Let us not keep a grudge and say tomorrow when I rise to power I am going to fix you for what you are doing today.
We have heard some people who are saying South Africa is a peaceful country but I will tell you that you have never been to South Africa. If you have been to that country there are always uprisings, stone throwing, toy-toying in the streets and therefore, we need to protect our democracy and independence. We have some people who by nature are rubble rousers and they will use any occasion to create fiction amongst the people of Zimbabwe.
From my observation and intelligence, people should have been united by the threats sent by these persons because we are all Members of Parliament and we can be subjected to that. We should investigate and see why these messages cannot be traced. We should now be looking at a way of investigating such cyber crimes because as far as I am concerned, nobody can send a message which is not known by the service provider. We also know that we have POTRAZ whereby whosoever wants to use some of these communication gadgets has to register with it. As Members of Parliament, we should be looking for ways of hunting and correcting these anomalies so that we can track down the cyber space crime but our colleagues here are playing a blame game. Madam President, I am not going to contest what is being said by the heckler because he said, you are the people who are going to open Parliament, and therefore you are responsible for rubble rousing and these messages.
In conclusion, if we were really willing, we should be talking in unison that we are not satisfied by the progress or lack of it by the Committee led by Hon. Sen. Chief Charumbira, because we seem to be blaming it. As an individual, I am satisfied by the performance done by this Committee, I have been a Member of the Committee and there is nothing as difficult as being sent on a wild goose chase, you are supposed to go on a blind search and be able to come out with the findings. So, this is going to be progress.
We could have waited and said let us wait for this Committee to bring a report which will show the progress they have made. The Committee would tell us on the communication they have had with the police, the investigative officers and service providers, then they would say we have not done anything. In that case, we will be saying Hon. Sen. Chief Charumbira; your Committee is not worth its salt. If we are saying we are not very much content by the findings of this Committee – what are we saying? As a result, we know that this Committee is being led by Hon. Sen. Chief Charumbira who is a Chief and not a Member of a political party.
This Committee is made up of people from different political parties, it is a Committee which was appointed long back and it is a Committee worth its salt. When they have done some investigations and they bring a report that we still have to go further with investigations, definitely, a thorough job has been done. We are now criticizing our fellow members because we are now towards the elections in 2018 and we want to use this as a reason that if we lose, we will definitely say it was because of the calibre of members. Thank you.
+HON. SEN. A. SIBANDA: I would like to thank you very much
for affording me this opportunity to also add my voice to this motion that was brought by Hon. Sen. Chief Charumbira. Madam President, I would like to request that as elderly people in the Senate, we should all agree with each other. I would like all of to agree. This motion should not wait for a blow because there are a lot of intelligent people here in this country. We should not stand up here and say people who have done this and that cannot be found, they are not known. This country is full of intelligent people. You can go all over the world; they will tell you that Zimbabwe is full of intelligent people.
Let this not be the issue of the fact that the person who is leading this investigation, is someone who belongs to the group of people who are perpetrating this. It would be like you are looking for someone who is with you there. How can you say that you are looking for something with all this technology? It is possible that here in Zimbabwe people can kill someone and someone can say that the people cannot be found who have murdered someone, yet that person is known. However, if it is someone from next door who has murdered someone, he is quickly arrested – that is what is happening here in Zimbabwe.
This Committee is said to have been led by Hon. Sen. Chief
Charumbira, I do not think that I can really believe that because I know
Hon. Sen. Chief Charumbira can take a side…
HON. SEN. CHIEF CHARUMBIRA: On a point of order! I
think you are now debating a point of ignorance. This Committee was set up by the Standing Rules and Orders Committee which is composed of all the political parties. Hon. Sen. Mlotshwa sits and she is a Member of that Committee. So, when it came to the point that who should chair this Committee, MDC itself proposed that we need a neutral person,
Hon. Sen. Chief Charumbira. So, to have an Hon. Senator debating that
- that is not correct, and then you are actually saying those in the
Standing Rules who belong to your party are useless! Thank you. +HON. SEN. A. SIBANDA: You interjected too quickly. I am not blaming him but what was said by the previous speaker. I am not blaming the Chairmanship of Hon. Sen. Chief Charumbira, but what was said by the last speaker that Hon. Sen. Chief Charumbira is a neutral. I said, no, Hon. Sen. Chief Charumbira is not neutral and then you interjected. My apologies Hon. Sen. Chief Charumbira, I was not saying that you are wrong, I was responding to what the last speaker said. That was a point of order to Hon. Sen. Chipanga who said Hon. Sen. Chief Charumbira was neutral. I am saying Hon. Sen. Chief Charumbira was elected by the Committee. I wanted to ask and say how can you say that? Yesterday, I saw Hon. Sen. Chief Charumbira voting yet he is a
Chief….
HON. SEN. CHIEF CHARUMBIRA: Fortunately, I am
following your Ndebele very well. I was not elected by the Committee to be Chair. I was appointed unanimously by the Standing Rules, there is a big difference there. It is not the Committee that said Chief chairs, it is the Standing Rules itself which appointed the Committee and with the concurrence of everybody. Thank you
THE HON. DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF SENATE: That
Committee is comprised of both Houses, the Lower House and the Upper House.
HON. SEN. A. SIBANDA: Point taken, they can go if they want to because they are showing which side they are. They can show it in full and we do not care about it; we saw it.
Mr. President, what I would like to request is that let us not belittle this country because the news will go far. Zimbabwe is a country full of intelligent people. The whole of Africa cannot match the intelligence here in Zimbabwe. If today, a naughty boy were to place it on social media that he wants to kill the President, let us see if people who are making those investigations will fail or if the people who are working for the President will say that they cannot find the person who would have posted that. This is what I am saying that the President cannot … *HON. SEN. CHIPANGA: On a point of order Mr. President.
Mr. President, the police have not yet been involved in this issue. The Committee led by Hon. Sen. Chief Charumbira handed over this case to the police who have said by the end of October, they will give the results.
+HON. A. SIBANDA: Hon. President, maybe he did not understand what I said in Ndebele. I am saying it is like belittling the
President of a country if someone threatens someone’s life. If someone is given a job and those are the people that we rely on for information; I am not blaming the committee, Telecel or whatever, but if they say they do not know, then I am saying that is not true Mr. President. If you are given a job by the President of a nation and you say you do not know, how can the President rely on such people for the security of the country?
Media is important because some people can come using cyber space and if they say they cannot trace, I am saying that is undermining the President of the nation. They must stand up first and scrutinize the matter properly so that if they come up with a report – a report that is taken to the President of a country should be a very important report. That is undermining the President if you say you do not know. No, that is not possible, so they should answer questions. We cannot wait for the Bill.
We want people to be protected - even Members of Parliament, Chiefs and everyone. They should be protected if such things are happening. I am not insulting the leadership of the Committee. Those who were assigned the duty should do their work properly and should respect the President so that we are not attacked. They can actually come and attack this country and take over the country. We want information to be clear. They should really work hard, not to give us a report to present. That report from the Senate is going to be taken to the President. So, what should we do? Are we saying that we should just sit back? We should all agree that people should work properly. Mr. President, we do not want people who do not work. We want people who work because this is our life. We want them to work, not to come and give us reports that will backfire in future and make the President suspicious. That is not possible.
My young boys at home can use the computer and here we are talking about professional people. They should not think that we are stupid. We want them to do their work properly so that Hon. Sen. Chief Charumbira should produce a proper report. It does not matter who is being naughty here. We should not look at whose child is being naughty.
We are all under President Robert Mugabe and we would like the President or even the Vice Presidents to be above politics. They should look at everyone and treat everyone the same. I should know that I am protected under the Government. Even if my children are out of the country, I should know that they are protected by the Government. We should not belittle or undermine each other. That is why people are saying maybe those people are known. If those people are neutral, they should tell us who those culprits are. They should also tell us who sent Hon. Makhosini a bullet at the hotel. Everything should be out in the open. We want discipline. The President knows about discipline. He disciplines those who are not doing the right thing, he should discipline them. We must live in a free country where I can speak freely. No one should follow me outside there and ask me what I have been saying inside here.
When I say I was debating, I do not want to be told to be careful because this is what happened last week. Mr. President, I told you. So, that is why I am saying we want to be free. People should be free to talk. We do not want people who are not respectful. If a leader is chosen, he should be respected and supported so that we can live happily in our country. We want development and progress in our country. There should be freedom of speech and discipline, not and for people to be insulted by professional institutions.
My request is that we should agree here that this is not what we were expecting in this motion. We should not accept it. Before the Bill, this should be investigated further. The President will bring a Bill before Parliament. We do not want to hear that there are people who are still receiving death threats. People should not be threatened with death. Death is a natural thing that should happen because God wants it to happen. Thank you Mr. President.
HON. SEN. CHIEF CHARUMBIRA: I move that the debate do now adjourn.
HON. SEN. MOHADI: I second.
Motion put and agreed to.
Debate to resume: Thursday, 3rd August, 2017.
ANNOUNCEMENT BY THE TEMPORARY PRESIDENT
OF SENATE
MISPLACED CAR KEYS
THE TEMPORARY PRESIDENT OF SENATE (HON. SEN.
TAWENGWA): Hon. Sen. Mumvuri misplaced his car keys yesterday and he is looking for those keys. If anyone took them by mistake, please he is frantically looking for them. He does not know where his car keys are and so he is immobile.
MOTION
FIRST REPORT OF THE THEMATIC COMMITTEE ON PEACE
AND SECURITY ON THE PREPAREDNESS OF THE GRAIN
MARKETING BOARD TO HANDLING THE 2016/2017 CROP
DELIVERIES AND THE SUCCESS OF THE COMMAND
AGRICULTURE PROGRAMME
Third order read: Adjourned debate on motion on the First Report of the Thematic Committee on Peace and Security on the preparedness of the Grain Marketing Board to handling the 2016/2017 Crop
Deliveries and the Success of the Command Agriculture Programme.
Question again proposed.
HON. SEN. MUMVURI: Mr. President, I move that the debate do now adjourn.
HON. SEN. MOHADI: I second.
Motion put and agreed to.
Debate to resume: Thursday, 3rd August, 2017.
MOTION
REALIGNMENT OF LEGISLATION TO THE CONSTITUTION
Fourth order read: Adjourned debate on motion on the slow pace of the realignment of legislation to the Constitution.
Question again proposed.
HON. SEN. MAKORE: I move that the debate do now adjourn.
HON. SEN. MLOTSHWA: I second.
Motion put and agreed to.
Debate to resume: Thursday, 3rd August, 2017.
On the motion of HON. SEN. MASUKU, seconded by HON. SEN. MOHADI, the Senate adjourned at Thirteen Minutes past Four o’clock p.m.
PARLIAMENT OF ZIMBABWE
Thursday, 3rd August, 2017
The Senate met at Half-past Two o’clock p.m.
PRAYERS
(THE HON. PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE in the Chair)
THE HON. PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE’S RULING
HON. DR. DOKORA’S UTTERANCES ON SDCS AND SSF FUNDS
THE HON. PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE: On the 12th of
July 2017, Hon. Sen. Khumalo raised a point of privilege arising from the intervention made by the Minister of Primary and Secondary Education, Hon. Dr. Dokora on the 15th of June, 2017 relating to the establishment of the School Service Fund (SSF).
Hon. Sen. Khumalo stated in her matter of privilege motion that the Hon. Minister had made a fool out of her and brought the Senate into disrepute by questioning the Hon. Senator’s integrity as well as the integrity of fellow Senators who had debated a motion on funds controlled by School Development Committees (SDCs) and School Development Associations when he pointed out that, “as it stands, debating as it is put here is really debating on a matter that has originated in the social media, which has no legal force and is really wasting Hon. Senators’ time.”
Hon. Sen. Khumalo argued that the Hon. Minister had deterred and unduly influenced Members from debating the motion and had in the process misdirected the President of the Senate through his misrepresentation. She pointed out that there was sufficient evidence which proved that Government schools in Harare had been given the directive to transfer funds and indeed transferred SDC funds to the SSF account by 31st March, 2017. She stated that this was contrary to the Hon. Minister’s position that there was no legal instrument to transfer the money, which suggested that “there were no SDC funds that had been transferred to the SSF account”.
Hon. Sen. Khumalo was of the view that the Hon. Minister had contravened provisions of the Privileges, Immunities and Powers of Parliament Act and implored that a Privileges Committee be constituted to investigate the conduct of Hon. Dr. Dokora.
I then advised the Senate that I would study the matter and make a ruling. On the 1st of August, 2017, Hon. Dr. Dokora made a personal explanation in terms of Standing Order No. 89. In his explanation, the Minister pointed out that his intervention on the 15th of June, 2017 was not intended to demean the Senate and in particular Hon. Sen. Khumalo. He reiterated that when he stated that there was no Instrument to transfer money to the SSF account, his conscience was clear and he never thought anything to the contrary was happening since there was no official circular to the effect that the SDC funds should be transferred to the SSF account.
He acknowledged that he had since been advised that indeed some schools had transferred the SDC funds to the SSF account prematurely.
The Minister assured the Senate that the issue would be addressed. The Minister tendered his unreserved apologies to Hon. Sen. Khumalo and to the Senate which was accepted.
In view of the Minister’s explanation, I therefore, rule that the Minister had acted in good faith in his earlier statement and had unreservedly apologised to the Senate and hence it is no longer necessary to make a ruling on the matter.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE
THE HON. PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE: We wish to
warmly and heartily welcome the Vice President Hon. Mphoko to the Senate.
*HON. SEN. KOMICHI: I am very grateful for the presence of Hon. Vice President Mphoko in this House. We welcome you Hon.
Member especially coming from the Ministry of National Healing, Peace and Reconciliation. In this country, we have people who are enemies and are always fighting. There are also tensions within these people. So, I would want to find out what you are doing as a Ministry to create peace and order in the country so that the next general elections will be held peacefully?
THE VICE PRESIDENT AND MINISTER OF NATIONAL
HEALING, PEACE AND RECONCILIATION (HON. MPHOKO):
I would like to thank the Hon. Member for his question. Your question is about children fighting at home. These are attitudes because fighting comes from attitudes. I will give you an example where members of one family belonged to two different political parties. There were two guys from the Mvenge family. One was in ZAPU and the other was in ZANU. These two brothers would go their separate ways to their parties and come back home under one roof. There was no fighting whatsoever until one of them died because of a car accident. Fighting is caused by attitudes.
The Ministry has very little it can do but I think the homes themselves have a responsibility not to take politics as that which runs lives. The moment you want to make yourself professional or a special politician, because there has never been a special professional politician, you will always go wrong. However, the role of the Ministry of
National Healing, Peace and Reconciliation is to ensure that it intervenes where orphans cannot go to school; people cannot open bank accounts or vote and cannot get birth certificates. I am sure you are all aware that we went and commissioned the programme to have children get their birth
certificates.
Let me say to the Hon. Member who asked the question, let us not take politics to a certain level where it is not supposed to be. Let me also remind you Hon. Sen. Komichi that you are older than ZANU, ZAPU or MDC in terms of age. All these things came long after you were born and I think we must look at things from that angle. We should also not take politics as a profession please. I thank you.
+HON. SEN. S. NCUBE: I am still on the same question that was asked. I think the Vice President did not answer the question correctly. The Hon. Member wanted to know the efforts the Ministry is making in connection with the infighting. For example, yesterday the police were fighting with soldiers and the police were assaulted and we are going towards elections.
HON. MPHOKO: Are you asking about efforts being done where fights are going on between people? People fight because of attitudes. I will repeat that. I do not know why the police and soldiers are fighting. Maybe it is because someone thinks his uniform is more beautiful than that of the other but politically people do fight. Fighting, my sister Hon. Sen. Ncube, is caused by people who think they are better than others in their parties. I know Hon. Sen. Komichi used to fight a lot. Yes, we are politicians but if we take it beyond this, we should not think that we are better than the others. The problem is not in the Ministry but in us. I thank you.
HON. SEN. TIMVEOS: My question is directed to the Minister of Local Government, National Housing and Public Works, Hon. Kasukuwere. There is a lot of corruption happening in the local authorities, mostly, I come from Zvishavane and you have been there. Management is the one that is doing a lot of corruption and they influence councillors to do that which is wrong. So, what steps are you taking towards management that is abusing the rate payers’ money? I thank you.
THE MINISTER OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT, PUBLIC
WORKS AND NATIONAL HOUSING (HON. KASUKUWERE):
Madam President, I want to thank Hon. Sen. Timveos for her question and I am sure she remembers when we met in Zvishavane, where I said, if there are any cases that you have observed of mismanagement, corruption, just raise them with us and we will deal with them. I think what you are raising with me just now, is what you have observed. I have no problems in taking it up if there are specific cases to deal with.
HON. SEN. KHUMALO: Thank you Madam President. My
question is directed to the Minister of Local Government, Public Works and National Housing. I want to find out about the cooperatives which are running illegally. Is there any Government policy which is in place to look into that?
*THE MINISTER OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT, NATIONAL
HOUSING AND PUBLIC WORKS (HON. KASUKUWERE):
Thank you Hon. Sen. Murwira. As a Government, we came up with the idea of cooperatives so that we provide land for our people to build, but we have seen that the goodwill of the Government is being hampered and people are misbehaving which results in a lot of corruption taking place. That has also led us to a point like in Caledonia, where we are retrieving the land and giving it to Urban Development Cooperation. Land barons were selling one piece of residential stand to a number of people - but as Government, we are watching the moves of the cooperatives so that our people on the ground are not shortchanged by the co-operatives leaders.
+HON. SEN. MLOTSHWA: My question is directed to the Vice
President and Minister of National Healing, Peace and Reconciliation, Hon. Mphoko. Since your Ministry is the one that is responsible for seeing that there is peace in the country; there are 60 households which had their fields taken by ARDA and those people now, do not have anything. So, what efforts are you putting in place for those people to live amicably and peacefully?
+THE VICE PRESIDENT AND MINISTER OF NATIONAL
HEALING, PEACE AND RECONCILIATION (HON. MPHOKO):
Thank you Madam President. I will answer part of it which we look at as a Ministry. Let me go and find out from the Ministry of Lands, because you spoke about this company called TREK and ARDA. You are saying that people have been driven out from where they had their ancestors’ graves. I will also find out from the Minister of Agriculture and the next time I will come here, I will give you a proper answer.
Thank you.
+HON. SEN. MLOTSHWA: Minister, I asked that question to
the Minister of Lands, I had to actually put it in writing. He responded that it was not their responsibility to see to it and that it was not for them to deal with that. Now, that you are saying it is not your responsibility but theirs, do you think that there will be peace in so far as those people are concerned?
+HON. MPHOKO: I understand, Hon. Sen. Mlotshwa kaLuvivi.
I understand my sister but I think you have heard the President saying that whites have come back and they are running some projects and you know he does not like that. Be that as it may, let me go back to Hon. Made and find out. I will ask him and I will tell him that last time that question was asked, it was not answered properly. I will take it up.
HON. SEN. KHUMALO: Thank you Madam President. My
question goes to the Minister of Local Government, Public Works and National Housing. Why is there no written directive to the councils about the Members of Parliament being given land as it is done for the councillors, because this will end up leading to corruption if there is no written directive?
THE MINISTER OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT, PUBLIC
WORKS AND NATIONAL HOUSING (HON. KASUKUWERE):
Madam President, I want to thank Hon. Sen. Khumalo on her question with regards the issue that we have discussed on Parliament’s allocation of land. Maybe, directly, is to say Hon. Senator we have identified a property called Stoomb here in Harare for allocation and to develop residential properties for our Members of Parliament, that includes our Senators. We have also engaged and we thought majority of our Members of Parliament were desirous to build in Harare as opposed to outside Harare. However, places like Bulawayo and so forth, we have engaged directly with our local authorities, but I have heard you that you want a written directive, I think we will just proceed to do just that, to write to the local authorities so that you can be allocated land as you so wish. I thank you.
*HON. SEN. TAWENGWA: Thank you Madam President. My
question is directed to Minister of Kasukuwere. What is our policy concerning those people who stay in council or Government houses? When these people die or retire without securing any alternative accommodation, we see their spouses being chased away. As Government, what is your plan concerning those people.
*THE MINISTER OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT, PUBLIC
WORKS AND NATIONAL HOUSING (HON. KASUKUWERE):
Thank you Madam President and also Hon. Sen. Tawengwa with your question concerning our people, especially those who are Government workers. I know the place he is referring to, PWD; most of the people who stay there are retired. What happened Hon. Senator is that these were messengers’ camps which were allocated to civil servants. They would later move on to places which were reserved for them, but it did not happen like that. Some have stayed in those places for a long time. When the Government said that we want to revamp these places, we find that we face a challenge of orphans who are there. For example, the area that the Hon. Senator is referring to is the PWD. We have plans to put up flats; we want to engage in high-rise buildings. We want to give first preference to the sitting tenants so that many people will be accommodated and we have taken that into our plan. We have stopped the eviction of the residents of PWD, so we went and sat down with them. There are about 386 who are affected in that area. Thank you.
*HON. SEN. MAKORE: Thank you Madam President for
affording me the opportunity to ask my question. Minister Kasukuwere, we want to greet you in this House because we have not seen you for a long time. We have challenges with our local councils. A lot of workers are not getting their salaries. Most of the councils have such challenges, which means people are not remunerated even after working for a long time. Probably you will explain to us because what we are seeing is that the people who get affected are the workers but the management gets their salaries. May you please explain to us how this works?
*THE MINISTER OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT, PUBLIC
WORKS AND NATIONAL HOUSING (HON. KASUKUWERE):
Thank you Madam President. I am very happy because in this House, there are leaders of the political parties. The people who run councils are politicians and the people who are chosen are those who look into that. Yes, it is very true we have a lot of councils and some have gone up to 20 months without paying employees their salaries. For example, we have Chitungwiza Town Council. Harare City Council is trying very hard, probably they are lagging four or six months behind. The same applies to City of Mutare. Councils that are running well are Bindura and Bulawayo.
Where is the problem now? The main challenge is people are not paying rates and secondly is the issue of corruption because those on top such as the Town Clerks get their salaries. Thirdly, the councillors allowances is there but for the workers, it is not enough. So, those are the three challenges that we are facing but we are rectifying the problems. We know that there are a lot of debts which we are supposed to pay to councils as Government. We are engaging the Minister of Finance and Economic Development.
When we wrote off people’s debts, it created a lot of gaps but we would want to close those gaps. The most painful thing is that leaders in those councils want to feed themselves first before looking at their subordinates. Right now, I am very happy because most councils are doing well. For example, in Mutare we have put a new Town Clerk, Mr. Maligo. He is doing very well because they are paying the current debts and arrears to their workers. They have come up with a payment plan and at least they are paying the current salaries well. I want to thank you for that question.
HON. SEN. MLOTSHWA: Hon. Minister, when you waived the payments of services in 2013, do you not think you were influencing to get services that they do not want to pay for? Do you not think that is what is affecting the councils?
HON. KASUKUWERE: Thank you very much Madam
President. When we took that decision, it was in view of factors that had emerged at that point. We said we have to make it a lot easier for our people but that did not mean they have to perpetuate that going forward. When you have been given a discount in this shop, it does not follow if you go to the next shop you must get a discount; that is wrong. I think they took advantage of Government’s decision to lighten the burden on them and say we want this to happen tomorrow and the day after tomorrow, which we are saying no to.
I have made it very clear, publicly that we are not going to have any more relief. People must pay for services that must be delivered to them. That is a responsibility which we said the ownership of our towns belongs to our people. They have got the responsibility to ensure that their towns work and town leadership must be transparent in terms of how they use those resources. So going forward, there is no going back. I do not think this is something that people must develop into a habit and say because it was done like this yesterday, we must not pay. We must encourage our people to own up and pay what is due to their local authorities. It is about their own upkeep, health environment and so forth. So, our position is very clear – pay and let us move forward. Thank you.
HON. SEN. MUMVURI: Thank you Madam President. My question goes to the Minister of Local Government, Public Works and National Housing. What is Government policy in dealing with the land barons who continue to parcel out land illegally for purposes of settlement? Where are the city fathers when all this happen under their nose? Thank you.
THE MINISTER OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT, PUBLIC
WORKS AND NATIONAL HOUSING (HON. KASUKUWERE):
Madam President, I want to thank Hon. Sen. Mumvuri for a very important question that he raised and I think I must address this in a bit of detail. This is criminal and unfortunately, we have allowed for people to get away with this kind of crime. State land, council land and property owned by individuals cannot be invaded by anyone or parceled out by individuals and pocket the proceeds. This is pure criminal behaviour. We have not spared anybody we have come across. We have sent some people to jail and we continue to make sure that anybody who parcels out land, sells land that does not belong to them, especially the land barons must be arrested.
Some have hidden behind political cover. Some have gone to the extent of giving these pieces of land names of prominent politicians to ward off authorities from dealing with them. They will call this Joshua
Mqabuko Nkomo Housing Co-operative, “unopasvika sei?” They will call it Chatunga Co-operative, Mai Grace Mugabe Co-operative just to try and abuse the names of our leadership for their nefarious objectives. We have said no more to that. Do not give names without authority from those leaders, let alone their families. It must be approved.
We have realised that this actually cuts across the political circles. I can tell you for a fact that you will be very happy to know that even our Members from the other side of the House used these names for their own purposes. They will give names of our revolutionary leaders and then you go behind and say who really this person is. You will realise that it is somebody coming from our dear friends Chinja. I am just making funny of this because I know some have done it, but all we are trying to do is to discourage this behaviour. It is much more rampant here in Harare. In all the other towns, there is a way of doing things legally but it is in Harare where lawlessness has taken route.
This morning as we were cleaning the city, you would find people selling wherever they just think they can sell. The same thing is happening with the land barons. Anongomuka makuseni, otanga kufamba nhanho dzake, whether short or tall and he will consider his own weight or height and say this is one meter, and they sell the land.
Anybody who purchases that land risks losing it.
That is very certain and this is why we are making it very clear. Those who are selling land will be arrested. So, I want to appeal to all citizens that if you want land, check with the local municipality. We have DEOs and District officers in certain councils. We have DAs in all our towns from our Ministry as well as the Ministry of Rural
Development. We also have UDCORP and IDBZ. These are authorities that are handling issues to do with access to land and so forth.
If you do not check, let alone ask for the authorisation whether this is legal in terms of whether you had the authority from the Ministry of Local Government Public Works and National Housing to develop this property; if you are in doubt, do not buy. Consult us, otherwise you will run the risk of losing your hard earned currency or money. This is happening in a number of areas but on the land barons, we are not going to turn back. We will continue to pursue them and stop this kind of behaviour. Thank you very much.
HON. SEN. TIMVEOS: Thank you so much. Hon. Minister, the other day I was in Speke Avenue. There are also land barons that are parceling spaces where vendors must sell. At the end of the day, they come and collect a dollar from every vendor. The money that these people pay does not go to the council. So, the council is losing a lot of money. I want to understand what you are going to do with these land barons because from my understanding, they are making thousands of dollars per day from these vendors and they can vend anywhere. They can just be there without the council knowing and the money is not going to the council. It goes to an individual.
HON. KASUKUWERE: Thank you Madam President. The
Senator is quite right. They are not land barons. We call them space barons. They sell space and space which does not belong to them. It is wrong and criminal. Here is a rate payer who has this shop. Just go in
First Street, not even Speke Avenue, just here in First Street, infront of OK, there is somebody selling his own belts. The unfortunate part is that our council has turned a blind eye to this menace. I was talking to the
Deputy Acting Mayor and the Town Clerk this morning that enough is enough. We have got to deal with this situation. We cannot accept it anymore.
As we were walking, myself and Hon. Muchinguri from Robert Mugabe Road coming up to Samora Machel Avenue and at First Street, there are bags which have basically closed the road. You cannot walk because somebody has set up goods on his/her space and just because this person has been allocated this space of land by somebody who has pocketed the money, that again we are going to deal with that situation. We will not allow this lawlessness to continue any day longer. Thank you.
+HON. SEN. NCUBE: Thank you Madam President. I would like to know from the Minister of Local Government - does he have any powers to issue out land where there are councillors and without the knowledge of those councillors?
HON. KASUKUWERE: Well, if you are asking about me as the Minister, yes of course we have the authority. We can do that because
Urban Development Corporation is under us as...
HON. SEN. NCUBE: Without the knowledge of the councillors in the area?
HON. KASUKUWERE: Madam Senator, can I answer the
question. It is the Government which gives the councillors land anywhere. It is the Government which allocates land to city councils. Councils basically use our laws – it is a devolved authority. So, you cannot say to the father you have no power to do what you want in the family or in the house because you told your child that you are going to be the one in charge of this area. No. If we decide to build a new town and allocate land or if we have State land that we control in the urban centres, certainly we can give it to anybody we so wish because that is what we have and we are authorised to do so in terms of the laws of our country.
*HON. SEN. SHIRI: Thank you Madam President. My question is directed to the Minister of Local Government, Hon. Minister Kasukuwere. What is Government policy regarding the allocation of stands to people living with disability? There should be a quota system allocated to people living with disability in all the areas where you are parceling out residential or any other land.
*HON. KASUKUWERE: Thank you Hon. Shiri. The question which you are asking today is now a regular one. Wherever we meet, you are talking about that and you always talk about the welfare of the people living with disability. Hon. Senator, it is Government policy that whenever we are constructing, we always think about you and the questions which you ask. As a result, whenever there is any construction of accommodation, the houses on the ground floor should be allocated to people living with disability, especially when you are talking of high rise buildings which have no lifts installed. In areas like Tafara where we are constructing, we are saying the ground floor should be allocated to people living with disability.
It is also compulsory that houses constructed should have rumps so that people living with disability and moving on wheel chairs can always have easy access. Talking about the allocation of land on a quota system to people living with disability, we are encouraging local authorities to allocate land to them. Some three weeks ago, we were in Masvingo working with Hon. Chinamasa. We had some people living with disability who were visually impaired who were allocated land and they were asked to pay deposit for the land allocated. I thank you.
*HON. MASHAVAKURE: Thank you Madam President. My
question is directed to the Minister of Local Government. We have heard people who are talking especially local authorities saying they lack capacity to fulfill some of their obligations. My question is, is it not possible for the Ministry to make a policy which will dictate that whosoever is elected as a councillor should be a resident in that area because he has property and he has the interest unlike now, whereby people are only asked to be in that place because they are party political nominations.
THE MINISTER OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT, PUBLIC WORKS AND NATIONAL HOUSING (HON. KASUKUWERE): It
is true that people should represent people in their areas of resident but when we talk about the quality of people, the Constitution says all people are equal and can access resources whenever they can. If you are resident, even if you are lodging, poor and uneducated, the point is that you are allowed by law to go and stand for elections and be nominated. So, what we need to do is to have a rethink and maybe craft some law where we will talk about the qualifications of people who should be appointed to councils because at the moment, our Constitution is very silent on educational qualifications. At times we have some people who are appointed into council and when they get there, they are easily bribed because people want to be corrupt and take advantage of these councillors.
We also have problems with our councillors, we know that the law say that anybody can be a councillor but we are saying, as people who are supposed to be in the local authorities, we need to put some educational qualifications, for instance a council will have no member who is a lawyer, an accountant or a doctor or engineer, hence, there is need for qualified people to be in those places. The problem we have is that, when people are appointed by political parties, they are appointed because of popularity. When you have elected them, you start complaining to the Minister of Local Government that councillors are not doing their work properly and yet you are the people who appoint these people and elect them into positions. There is therefore need for the Constitution to set parameters. Thank you.
*HON. SEN. MURONZI: Thank you Madam President. My correct name is Muronzi because I have had some people calling me
‘Murozvi,’ and it has been written in the Hansard as ‘Murozvi’ but I am
Muronzi. My question is directed to the Minister of Local Government, Public Works and National Housing, my nephew. As a representative of councillors from the rural areas, I want to ask whether councillors also have benefits. I am asking this because one may spend 20 years as a councillor but in the end, there is no single benefit to write home about. Maybe they are ignorant where I come from, in Madziwa, they retire without anything, even a residential stand. I want to find out if they have any benefit, I am touched by their plight because I come from a rural constituency.
*THE MINISTER OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT, PUBLIC
WORKS AND NATIONAL HOUSING (HON. KASUKUWERE):
Thank you Madam President. My grandmother how did you end up on that side? This polygamy was troublesome back home – [Laughter.] – Thank you. This question should have been directed to the Minister responsible for rural affairs. However, I will respond. Being a councillor is not a formal job, if you are elected as a councillor, you are helping with development and it is not a formal job since you are in that position because of being elected by the people and if they do not vote you in the next elections, you are out. You are elected today and after five years someone else maybe elected into that position and you will be out of work.
Therefore, it is a reality that most of them are elected out and they go to their home area and someone gets in. However, whilst they will be at work, that is when they get any form of allowances that will be there, that is the form of payment they get. A long time ago, people were elected into councillorship because of their economic status. They were usually were well to do persons who were able to use their own resources to develop the community within which they live without them looking for payment. Therefore, some are elected whilst they are poor and they think they can get rid of their poverty using that position and this has led to corruption in the country. Others resort to allocating themselves big residential or industrial stands and so on. However, as Government, we try by all means to make sure they are well taken care of without disadvantaging the community but this is not formal work, it is voluntary service.
HON. SEN. CHIMHINI: Thank you Madam President, I was
already giving up. My question is directed to the Vice President. Hon. Vice President, the Constitution is very clear in terms of Traditional Leaders that they are supposed to be apolitical. However, what happens is that, when we vote in the Senate, the Traditional Leaders or the
Chiefs, publicly vote with a political party. Is this not a violation of the
Constitution? The second part of my question is, are they not compromising themselves when we go to elections, when we know that they publicly vote with a political party. I thank you.
THE HON. PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE: Hon. Sen.
Chimhini, you know very well that the Hon. Vice President is not responsible for Chiefs. You should pose that question to Hon. Ncube.
HON. SEN. CHIMHINI: Point of order Madam President. I want to believe the Vice President represents all Ministries and in the absence…
THE HON. PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE: I do not think he
represents all Ministries, that is why he is the Vice President and Minister of a specific organ. Anyway, the Vice President said he can fumble – [Laughter.] –
THE VICE PRESIDENT AND MINISTER OF NATIONAL
HEALING, PEACE AND RECONCILIATION (HON. MPHOKO):
Thank you Madam President. I thank the Member for the question although it is not my area, I want to answer as a human being. A chief is a human being whether he comes from Zvimba or Nkayi. When he votes, he is not whipped by a political party, he will vote as a person – [HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.] – that is what happens and that is what it is. There is nobody who is hanging in this world, it will never happen. You will have to lean somewhere. Let me give you an example; I am not sure about the name of your political name but if you come from
Umdaca and then for instance your leader’s uncle is a chief, that has a biasness on your leader of MDC for instance. If there is a chief in an area, be it Chief Gwebu or anyone, he has an inclination to his nephew, so you cannot say he is whipped by anyone. It is automatic.
In life if you go to a certain place and there is a football match, you are just a new person in that area, I can assure you, you will end up supporting this other team that is against the other one - [Laughter.] – Thank you.
*HON. SEN. CHABUKA: Thank you Madam President. My
question is directed to the Minister of Local Government, Public Works and National Housing, Hon. Kasukuwere. He has answered part of my question and I would want to thank you Hon. Minister for the explanation that you gave when you said you have the intention of constructing flats so that you can be able to accommodate many people and they can be able to have their own homes. But, I am saying when you are planning, will you please construct more in places like Mutare and other places because it is a mountainous area; we have very few places where people can have residential stands. If you are going to construct flats, then people will be very happy. In other countries, they construct high-rise buildings so that they accommodate more people and save land than spreading these single dwellings which take up a lot of space. I urge you Minister to try and construct the flats as early as possible so that people can get homes to live in. I thank you.
*THE MINISTER OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT, PUBLIC
WORKS AND NATIONAL HOUSING (HON. KASUKUWERE):
Thank you Madam President and I would want to also thank Hon. Sen.
Chabuka for the question.
This past week, we started at the OTS in Sakubva, Chineta, Matida and Chisamba. We held meetings with the citizens of that area and we have a space which has been set aside for the construction. If I am not mistaken, by next week they will be starting on digging the foundations and we have allocated them money amounting to about $2 million in Sakubva, Mutare so that construction of these residential areas can begin. This is a programme which will be carried out in all cities throughout the country so that people can have accommodation just like what was done by the late Hon. Minister Chikoore who was the Minister then. They were destroying old houses and then constructing new ones.
That is what we are going to do. I thank you very much Hon. Sen.
Chabuka.
HON. SEN. MLOTSHWA: Madam President, I wish to move
that time for Questions Without Notice be extended by 15 minutes.
HON. SEN. MUSAKA: I second.
HON. SEN. MUSAKA: I thank you Madam President. My question goes to Hon. Minister of Local Government, Public Works and National Housing, Hon. Kasukuwere. This is in relation to the haphazard planning in Kadoma City -Waverly in particular even on buildings - can something be done? I do not know what help Kadoma City can get, whether it is some directive or some direction because compared to Kadoma and Gweru, it is the only city there that is stagnant and nothing is happening. There have been a lot of empty spaces for the last 20 years. You try to develop it and the answers that you get are, oh no there is this or there is that. It is really stagnant and we are appealing for some assistance. Workers are not being paid. I thank you Hon. Minister.
THE MINISTER OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT, PUBLIC
WORKS AND NATIONAL HOUSING (HON. KASUKUWERE):
Madam President, I can see you cannot call out my name because you are laughing.
THE HON. PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE: We discourage
Senators from giving a long preamble before they present their questions. That is why all these Hon. Senators are laughing because he gave a long preamble.
HON. KASUKUWERE: Thank you very much Madam
President and I would want to thank Hon. Sen. Musaka for the question. As I indicated earlier on, we indeed have some challenging cities and one of those which really has been a major pain to us is Kadoma. So, you are correct – we need to correct Kadoma. There is a lot that is going wrong in Kadoma and we are trying to nurse it back to some better and positive traction in terms of how it attends to its developmental requirements. Clearly and I do admit that Kadoma is one of those towns that require mending. So, thank you very much for raising it with me but, we will keep our eyes in Kadoma. I can visit it and see what can be done to try and bring it back on track.
*HON. SEN. MACHINGAIFA: Thank you Madam President
and how are you? My question is directed to the Vice President, Hon. Mphoko. I know that the Minister of Finance and Economic
Development as well as the Minister of Home Affairs are not around but as the Leader of the House, you can help us. We cannot get money in the banks but in the streets, you find that there are new notes there.
Where is that money coming from? I thank you.
THE VICE PRESIDENT AND MINISTER OF NATIONAL
HEALING, PEACE AND RECONCILIATION (HON. MPHOKO):
Thank you Madam President. I think you are right my friend by knocking on a wrong door. I think to do justice to your question, it will be better to direct it to the responsible Ministry because that is very technical and I do not want to indulge myself going into those things. I thank you.
*HON. SEN. CHIZEMA: Thank you Madam President. My
question is directed to the Minister of Local Government, Public Works and National Housing. For a long time, we have heard that the management in councils awarded themselves hefty salaries. Were those salaries slashed down because it is an outcry that they are getting huge salaries but I did not get to a point where it was said that their salaries were slashed so that they all benefit. When a council does not realise enough money, we would want that the salaries be fairly distributed from the top to the lowest person. I just want to know if the salaries were slashed to cater for the others.
*THE MINISTER OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT, PUBLIC
WORKS AND NATIONAL HOUSING (HON. KASUKUWERE):
Thank you Madam President and thank you Hon. Sen. Chizema for the very good question which is in connection to the wages and salaries that we pay council workers. Yes, the Government has taken steps to downgrade the salaries of council management. Some were getting up to $22 000 and if I am not mistaken, from 26 July 2016, I wrote a letter to all the councils beginning with the City of Harare which is the biggest. The salaries were slashed down. The Town Clerk’s salary was reduced by 50% from $22 000 to $10 475 and we also cut the rest of the management’s salaries. The ceiling that we pegged for the Town Clerk of the City of Harare is $10 475 and for all the other councils, we reduced their salaries as well.
I know that they are getting more than what Hon. Senators are getting and even myself, I do not get that much but we are looking at the work that they are doing as the Town Clerk especially in Harare, it is mammoth work because we want people who are educated and who have the knowhow so that we do not cry when councils do not function well when we do not pay them well. So, we gave all the councils a directive that their salaries should be in tandem with the funds that they realise in their councils. We gave them a schedule of salaries that should be given to top management. So, it is according to what these councils are realising. We said that for all the money that they collect, 30% should go to salaries and 70% should go to service delivery. Yes, we have slashed their salaries downwards. Thank you.
*HON. SEN. CHIZEMA: Thank you Madam President. On top
of those salaries, you are saying that it is $10 000 but if you look at it, the type of cars that you buy for the Town Clerk, they are very expensive cars but should they fail to perform and are dismissed from the job, they go with those cars and the one that replaces him will again be awarded an expensive car at the expense of the ratepayers and at the expense of the lowest paid people. I think that some of the policies in the councils need to be looked into and be revised because it does not augur well. There are those people who do manual work or let us say those who do the menial jobs are supposed to be paid more but you find that the Town Clerk is also given allowances. My question is, if you slashed down their salaries, what about the allowances because on top of salaries you give them allowances and buy cars for them.
*THE MINISTER OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT, PUBLIC
WORKS AND NATIONAL HOUSING (HON. KASUKUWERE):
Hon. Sen. Chizema, you were once a commissioner in the Harare Council and you are the one that put that law into place to buy expensive cars for the management. However, I am happy because your question seeks to benefit the people at the lower levels. Whatever you talked about, we looked into. If management wants to go on holiday, that should be catered for from their salaries. They also have to use the cars that are already there. A lot has been happening and we have ensured that all council workers benefit.
+HON. SEN. CHIEF GAMPU: My question is directed to the Vice President of Zimbabwe Hon. Mphoko. What is Government policy pertaining to the upgrading of a headmen to a chief. I am asking because we have not seen any written record and on several occasions that will cause some disturbances here in Zimbabwe.
+THE VICE PRESIDENT AND MINISTER OF NATIONAL HEALING, PEACE AND RECONCILIATION (HON. MPOKO):
Hon. Sen. Chief Gampu’s grand father taught me. I think this question should be directed to the responsible Minister. But I know it is unfair because as an African, I stay among the chiefs. What we know and what we grew up knowing is that if a headman is from Charumbira, it is their headmanship and cannot be diverted. If a new chief or headman is being inaugurated, what should be done is that the headman from that area should sit down and agree for example that from the Mathe family, it is so and so who is supposed to take over the headmanship. However, the chiefs on their own can sit down and discuss the issue of succession.
Now that Kaisa is now late, one of his children should take over.
+HON. SEN. NCUBE: What I would like to ask is that there are people who are being installed as headmen or chiefs from nowhere when they do not come from the lineage of headmanship. Where is that coming from?
+HON. MPHOKO: Makhumalo, there is what you call power. Can you see my hands, I am not MDC but if you pour water into this hand, it will all leak out of the hand through the fingers. But if I hold my hand half clenched, you can pour water and I will be able to drink. These chiefs from our area, Chief Gampu, Kaisa, Mtshane and
Ngungubane all opened their hands. They should close their hands. We have the powers, so close the powers. Do not open your hands.
HON. SEN. KOMICHI: I would like to start by thanking the
Vice President and the Minister of Local Government for coming to this august House. My complaint is that it has been almost two weeks now.
Last week, the chairs were just as empty as that.
THE HON. PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE: Order, we are out
of time. I thought you were going to pose a question.
HON. SEN. KOMICHI: Please madam President, let me register this complaint because this practice of Ministers not coming to this House will continue. Now, today I have seen the Vice President and I am complaining to him to take the matter to the President and tell the President that Ministers are not doing their job. They are sleeping and sitting on their job wasting the tax payers’ money as well as their time. We feel much belittled and we are not happy. So, I am putting it across to the Vice President who is here and I think it will also assist you Madam President. We are not happy to be only questioning two
Ministers for the last one hour yet other Ministers are not here. The Vice President has come all the way to attend this meeting, what about all the other junior Ministers and Ministers who are not coming. Why are they not doing it? That is my complaint Madam President.
HON. MPHOKO: I thought Madam President, you were the
rightful authority to take it up rather than me. If you can take it up and then it comes to us.
THE HON. PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE: The Hon.
Chairperson of the MDC knows that as presiding officers we have written through the leader of Government business Hon Vice President Mnangagwa. We have but still they do not show up, so maybe as
Chairman and leader of his party’s business, he failed to compel, to maybe add a word or two about that.
Questions without Notice were interrupted by THE HON. PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE in terms of Standing Order No. 62
(5).
THE HON. PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE: We have to thank
Minister of Local Government, Public Works and National Housing, Hon. Kasukuwere because that is the only question we have and he is the only Minister present. Thank you for coming to the Senate to respond to questions. It is appreciated.
ORAL ANSWER TO QUESTION WITH NOTICE
RESUSCITATION OF THE DISTRICT DEVELOPMENT FUND
(DDF) TILLAGE UNIT
HON. SEN. CHIMBUDZI: Madam President, I was advised to direct the question to Minister S.K Moyo. So, I did so - it does not belong to the Minister of Local Government.
MOTION
BUSINESS OF THE SENATE
THE MINISTER OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT, PUBLIC
WORKS AND NATIONAL HOUSING (HON. KASUKUWERE):
Mr. President, I move that Orders of the Day, Number 1 to 8 on today’s Order Paper, be stood over, until Order of the Day, Number 9 has been disposed of.
Motion put and agreed to.
MOTION
ALIGNMENT OF THE EDUCATION ACT TO THE
CONSTITUTION
Ninth order read: Adjourned debate on motion on funds controlled
by School Development Committees and School Development
Associations.
HON. SEN. KHUMALO: Thank you Mr. President for letting me wind up my motion today. I am winding up this motion because of the visit by the Minister of Primary and Secondary Education, Dr.
Dokora, who came in here, to give an apology.
I would like before I continue, to thank the following Hon. Senators who debated the motion, if they had not done that, we were not going to have any redress into the activities. I would like to thank Hon. Sen. Ndhlovu who seconded the motion and debated it. I would also like to thank Hon. Sen. Makwarimba, Hon. Sen. Mutsvangwa, Hon. Sen.
Machingaifa, Hon. Sen. Mashavakure, Hon. Sen. Makore, Hon. Sen. Shiri and Hon. Sen. Timveos. I would also like to thank some Senators who did not have the opportunity to discuss but were each time told to sit down when they tried to debate, Hon. Sen. Ncube and Hon. Sen. Chimhini, who eagerly wanted to debate the motion. I thank the House for having been able to agree with what I had submitted to them and they debated it. My apology goes to Hon. Sen. Makone for her serious question to the Minister on the 21st of July asking him if it was true that the funds were moved into the SSF fund.
The Minister came to this august House as well as to me and made some apologies on the 1st of August, 2017. He said he is going to redress the issues, as you heard him stating that issue. So, we are all going to be eagerly waiting for the Bill to come so that we can discuss. However, this motion has put it into each one of us here, as Members of the Senate to go and think about where we are going to look into and align the Act with the Constitution.
The Minister promised that the funds will be sent quickly into the
SDC’s and SDA’s funds. So, we are hoping that by the end of September 2017, all the funds will have been moved to the SDC’s and SDA’s. The Minister said he has a lot of people he can send to inform
the schools of the decision. So, we thank the Minister.
Mr. President, the Minister quoted that the schools are more than 8 500, among these, he informed us that there was a school where the
SDC’s or SDA’s squandered the US$60 000. We are all saying that that money would not be the issue of quickly changing the system without coming to the Parliament.
I am now asking each one of us here, that as we go to our schools we also raise the issue so that they remember that they are supposed to move the funds back to their original accounts as it was supposed to be. At the end the Minister of Education does the alignment of the current laws to the Constitution.
Finally, I move that this motion be adopted.
THE TEMPORARY PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE: Order,
order! Hon. Sen. Khumalo, if we adopt the motion and is contrary to the spirit that you have expressed yourself. The spirit is that we now await the Minister’s presentation of the Bill. It is when that Bill has been presented that you can bring back this motion if you like and say we do not agree. When we debate the Bill, that is where you come out fired up and say I do not agree. At this stage tactfully actually, you withdraw it, on the understanding that the Minister will stick to his word. I think it is tactful. If you withdraw, it means you can resuscitate it if you are not happy. You simply say I withdraw it in anticipation that the Minister will live to his word. Thank you.
HON. SEN. KHUMALO: I thank you Mr. President for saying it on my behalf. I am saying those words which you have said on my behalf [Laughter.] – I withdraw the motion standing in my name:
That this House -
NOTING the efforts made by Government in expanding the education system at Primary and Secondary levels across the country to meet the demand for education since independence;
APPLAUDING the Government’s decision to embrace all stakeholders in education thereby leading to the creation of School
Development Committees (SDCs) and School Development Association (SDAs);
FURTHER applauding the excellent work done by parents through the SDCs and SDAs in enhancing the quality of education in Zimbabwe;
DISTURBED by the abrupt decision by the Ministry of Primary and Secondary Education to order the closure of SDAs/ SDCs accounts at government schools and transfer monies to the government controlled
School Service Fund.
CONCERNED that the move will retrogressively impact on the gains made in the educational system over the years and result in the total collapse of the system;
NOW THEREFORE, calls upon the Ministry of Primary and
Secondary Education to;
- i) Align the Education Act to the Constitution; ii) Cease forthwith the transfer of SDA/ SDCs Funds to the School
Service Fund; and iii) Formulate a consolidated Statutory Instrument to guide the operations of SDCs and SDAs taking into account stakeholders’ input.
Motion; With leave, withdrawn.
MOTION
ADOPTION OF A DRAFT PROTOCOL ON THE AFRICAN
CHARTER ON HUMAN AND PEOPLE’S RIGHTS ON THE RIGHT
TO NATIONALITY AND THE ERADICATION OF STATELESSNESS
IN AFRICA
Eighth Order read: Adjourned debate on motion on resolving situations of statelessness in our country.
Question again proposed.
HON. SEN. TIMVEOS: Thank you very much Mr. President. I
want to thank everyone who debated this motion. I think this motion was debated very well. Also, Hon. Sen. Mohadi brought the same motion and it was debated well. What I am happy about is that the Vice President, Hon. Mnangagwa is actually in the SADC and he knows how statelessness affects the identity and lives of people. I want to thank everyone and I move for the motion to be adopted.
That this House;
RECALLING ongoing efforts of the African Union to move towards the adoption of a Draft “Protocol to the African Charter on
Human and Peoples’ Rights on the Right to Nationality and the
Eradication of Stateless in Africa:,
TAKING NOTE of the conclusions and Recommendations on statelessness adopted by the SADC “Technical Migration Dialogue for Southern Africa Addressing Mixed Migration in Southern Africa:
Linking Protection, Immigration, Border Management and Labour
Migration, Gaborone, Botswana from 16-18 August 2016”,
ACKNOWLEDGING the Conclusions of the “Conference on
Ensuring Everyone’s Right to Nationality: The Role of Parliaments in
Preventing and Ending Statelessness, Co-organised by the Parliament of
South Africa, the inter Parliamentary Union and the Office of the United
Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, from 26 to 27 November
2015”;
RECOGNISING the requirement by the Sustainable Development
Goals (SDGs) endorsed by the UN General Assembly on 25 September 2015, in particular SDG target 16, 9 to provide by 2030 legal identity for all, including birth registration;
FURTHER RECOGNISING the numerous formal pledges of SADC Member States to accede to the 1954 UN Convection relating to the Status of Stateless Persons and the 1961 UN Convention on the Reduction of Statelessness and the Recommendations from the Human
Rights Council’s Universal Periodic Review to the same effect.
COGNISANT that the Zimbabwe National Constitution provides for Fundamental Human Rights and Freedoms incorporating the right of children to a name and provision of identity documents;
NOW THEREFORE calls upon the Government to:
- i) Resolve any existing situations of statelessness within our own country; ii) Review the legislative frameworks and administrative practices in nationality matters with a view to ensure their consistency with the Zimbabwe Constitution and International standards on the prevention and resolution of statelessness, as well as on protection of stateless persons; iii) Initiate legislative reforms which address any identifies gaps or challenges, including any discrimination on the basis of race, ethnicity, religion or gender, thereby helping to prevent statelessness; iv) Ensure gender equality as regards the equal right of men and women to pass on their nationality to their children and spouses and to change or retain their nationality.
- v) Expedite the implementation of Article 6(4) of the African Charter on the Rights and Welfare of the Child, thereby preventing childhood statelessness; vi) Establish and maintain comprehensive birth registration and civil registration systems within Zimbabwe with a view to prevent statelessness; vii) Accede to the 1954 UN Convention relating to the Status of
Stateless Persons, the 1961 UN Convention on the Reduction of
Statelessness and the 1990 UN Convention on the Rights of all
Migrant Workers and Members of their Families; and viii) Support the drafting, adoption and ratification of a Protocol to the African Charter on Human and People’s Rights on the Right to Nationality and the Eradication of Stateless in Africa.” Motion put and agreed to.
On the motion of HON. SEN. TAWENGWA, seconded by HON. SEN. TIMVEOS, the Senate adjourned at Four Minutes past Four o’clock p.m. until Tuesday, 12th September, 2016.
PARLIAMENT OF ZIMBABWE
Thursday, 3rd August, 2017
The National Assembly met at a Quarter-past Two o’clock p. m.
PRAYERS
(THE HON. SPEAKER in the Chair)
ANNOUNCEMENTS BY THE HON. SPEAKER
VISITORS IN THE SPEAKER’S GALLERY
THE HON. SPEAKER: I have to acknowledge the presence in the Speaker’s Gallery, students and teachers from Mafidhi Mnangagwa
Primary School from Midlands Province. You are most welcome. –
[HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.] –
APPOINTMENT TO PORTFOLIO COMMITTEES
THE HON. SPEAKER: I have to inform the House that Hon. Revai Muguti will serve in the ICT and Health and Child Care Portfolio
Committees.
MOTION
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
THE MINISTER OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT, PUBLIC
WORKS AND NATIONAL HOUSING (HON. KASUKUWERE):
Mr. Speaker Sir, I move that Orders of the Day, Numbers 1 to 3 be stood over until Order of the Day Number 4 has been disposed of.
Motion put and agreed to.
HON. NDUNA: Sorry Mr. Speaker Sir, I think you have forgotten notices of motion and then thereafter we come on a point of privilege.
THE HON. SPEAKER: My apologies.
POINT OF PRIVILEGE
CLEAN-UP CAMPAIGN
HON. NDUNA: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of privilege.
Yesterday, you asked Hon. Members to join in a clean-up campaign in
Harare. It went very well for the Hon. Members who participated and I take this opportunity to applaud the Hon. Members who came through and engaged in the clean-up campaign. – [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] – I also want to say in that vein – [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] – If we can do this more often so that we can take a cue from Tanzania that there be a dedicated day each month so that we can do this more often. It is also said, kugara nhaka kuona dzevamwe, if this can also go as far as Chegutu.
Mr. Speaker Sir, I want to thank you and the Hon. Members who participated – [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] –
THE HON. SPEAKER: Order, order sorry Hon. Nduna, may you
complete your statement.
HON. NDUNA: Thank you for your protection Mr. Spear Sir. I
was just concluding to say that it is highly applaudable as it is said that cleanliness is next to godliness. I want to thank the Hon. Members who participated. We saw from all walks of life and other corporates joining us, if this day could be extended to mean a day every month for cleanliness and clean-up campaign, and if can also be extended to other constituencies. It is said, kugara nhaka kuona dzevamwe, if it can be extended to Chegutu West Constituency and other constituencies. It would be greatly applaudable, once again I want to thank you Mr.
Speaker for a job well done.
THE HON. SPEAKER: Thank you.
MOTION
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
THE MINISTER OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT, PUBLIC
WORKS AND NATIONAL HOUSING (HON. KASUKUWERE):
Mr. Speaker, colleagues have just highlighted to me that actually we must stand down Order of the Day, Number 1 until Order of the Day Number 2, has been disposed of.
COMMITTEE STAGE
NATIONAL PEACE AND RECONCIALIATION BILL [H. B. 2, 2017]
Second Order read: Committee Stage: National Peace and
Reconciliation Bill [H. B. 2, 2017].
House in Committee.
On Clause 12:
HON. MAJOME: I am rising and hope that the Hon. Minister
will respond to the debate I made about that. I thank you.
THE MINISTER OF STATE IN VICE PRESIDENT
MPHOKO’S OFFICE (HON. KANENGONI): I move the
amendment standing in my name which is on other offences that on page 10 of the Bill, delete Clause 12 (h), insert new subclause (2) which reads as follows—
“(2) Any person who threatens, victimises, assaults or does anything whatever calculated to harm or to prejudice the rights or interests of any person by reason of that other person having testified or appeared before the Commission or any of the Commission’s committees, shall be guilty of an offence and liable to a fine not exceeding level twelve or to imprisonment for a period not exceeding ten years or to both such fine and such imprisonment.” I thank you.
Amendment to Clause 12 put and agreed to.
Clause 12, as amended, put and agreed to.
On Clause 13:
HON. MAJOME: Thank you Mr. Chairman. I would want to entreat the Hon. Minister to reconsider allowing the Commission to fully work as an independent Commission by amending that clause so that when the Commission recruits its staff, it does not have to consult the
Ministry in, particular as well as the Ministry of Finance and Economic
Development. This is an independent Commission in terms of the Constitution, so it would be a good idea for the Commission to first consult the Hon. Minister on recruiting staff. It does not appear like the kind of policy guidance that should be there.
In my respective view, I urge the Hon. Minister that it is not necessary at all for the Commission; it is neither necessary, desirable or helpful for the Commission to have to consult the Hon. Minister, when it wants to recruit staff. It would undermine the independence of the
Commission as stated by the Constitution because they must be allowed to recruit staff as and when they can. This would be very inconsistent. I thank you.
THE MINISTER OF STATE IN VICE PRESIDENT
MPHOKO’S OFFICE (HON. KANENGONI): Thank you Mr.
Chairman and thank you Hon. Member. Consultation is not seeking permission, it is just mere consultation because the Hon. Minister also reports to Parliament. So it is important that from time to time, the Hon. Minister understands what the Commission is doing for the sake of reporting to Parliament. It is mere consultation, it is not seeking permission. So they can still do as they deem fit; the Hon. Minister has no right to say no, you cannot. It is just mere consultation for the purposes of reporting back.
HON. P. D. SIBANDA: I just wanted to find out from the Hon. Minister - like Hon. Majome has indicated; his consultation might not be seeking permission but why consult in the first place if it is an independent Commission? Why should it consult from someone? Does that not consultation aspect compromise the independence of the Commission? If consultation is not asking for permission, why consult in the first instance? Why not allow the Commission to act on its own without the influence of the Minister? The element of consultation brings in an influence, brings in an element of submission of the Commission to the Minister, so, should there be consultation?
THE MINISTER OF STATE IN VICE PRESIDENT
MPHOKO’S OFFICE (HON. KANENGONI): Thank you Hon.
Member, like I said it is for the sake of being able to move on the same page as the Minister also has to come to Parliament and present reports. So, he must be able to report to Parliament on what the Commission is doing. So, this is why they consult – [HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.] –
HON. P. D. SIBANDA: Thank you Hon. Chair. Hon. Minister
then if it is for the purposes of informing the Minister for the Minister to be able to report properly to Parliament, why do you not couch that section in that manner - where you are saying the Commission will simply advise the Minister what has to be reported to Parliament, because the Commission maybe cannot report on its own; other than saying consultation. Consultation is broad and if you leave it as broad as it is, it means that there is room for that consultation term to be abused –
[HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] –
THE CHAIRMAN (HON. MARUMAHOKO): Order, please,
order Hon. P. D. Sibanda.
HON. GONESE: Thank you very much. I have looked at the
closing question Mr. Chairman. I just want to draw the attention of the Minister to the effect that this consultation in respect of employment in terms of the Commission’s staff establishment, to me, there is no relationship between the reports which the Minister has to make to this august House and what we are talking about. For me, there is no real nexus. What I think we must be looking at is that we must enhance the independence of the Commission as enshrined in the Constitution. For me, I would understand for financial reasons obviously, that perhaps the consultation with the Minister of Finance and Economic Development might be appropriate in the sense that the Commission, when it wants to employ its staff, there may be some financial implications on the fiscus.
In relation to the Minister in charge of Healing, I believe that that consultation is wholly unnecessary, because you must also appreciate that the spirit which is in our Constitution is to have an independent Commission so that as far as possible, this Commission is able to operate on its own initiative. In this regard, if there is a Minister who is representing the Executive, is separate - [AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible interjection.] – No, no, I think for some Hon. Members who may not have read the Constitution, it might be important for them to listen so that some of us can do the talking.
I just wanted to request that perhaps in respect of this Clause, we could limit it to the Minister of Finance and Economic Development. We are talking of the staff establishment, we are not talking about the reports, and we are talking of the Commission creating its own secretariat. What we are saying essentially Hon. Minister, is that let us have this Commission having its own latitude to decide as to the members it wants to have in its secretariat. This is the reason why I am making the submission that the Minister of Finance and Economic Development has got relevance but I am not too clear as to why we want
Ministers to be consulted. Why not just limit it to one as a compromise Hon. Minister? At least there you will have a buy in from the person who is in charge of the purse of the country, that Minister who is in charge of the purse will have an input as to how big or small the secretariat is going to be. We are not talking about reports by the way, and I just want to reiterate that point Hon. Minister. This is just to do with what numbers we are going to have in the secretariat.
THE MINISTER OF STATE IN VICE PRESIDENT
MPHOKO’S OFFICE (HON. KANENGONI): Thank you very much
Hon. Members for your contributions. I still stick to what I said before. The consultation, as you said, can also affect the budgetary issues of who they are going to hire and you also said it must be limited to one Minister and this is the Minister that is responsible to oversee the work of the Commission. So, this Minister, we limit it to one Minister which is the Minister already written in the Bill, and he can then go and speak to the Minister Finance and Economic Development in terms of the budgetary issues.
Hon. Adv. Chamisa having stood up to debate without being given
the floor.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON: Order, Hon. Chamisa. Order
please. Hon. Members, those who would want to participate or would want to debate, if you take two-three minutes before you stand, I am not giving you the chance to debate. If I call for a debate, if you are ready and you want to debate, you immediately stand and then contribute, but not to take five minutes then you say you want to debate. I am not going to give you that chance.
HON. ADV. CHAMISA: Thank you very much Hon. Chair. I
was looking at this very important provision. I think this provision goes to the very heart of the independence of our Commissions, as enshrined in the Constitution. If you look at our Constitution as has already been argued by other members; the independence of the Constitution is enshrined in the Constitution in terms of Section 235 (1) (a), that the Commission is not supposed to be subjected to the control of anyone.
Now, if you look at the Minister’s role, the effect of the role of the Minister is to move it from being an independent Commission to being a dependent Commission.
Now, Hon. Chair, I am clear that the purpose of this Commission is not for it to be dependant on the Minister on anything. Once you subject it, you are already subjecting it to the control, to the authority, to the wisdom, to the advice and that is not the import of the Constitution. So, may the Minister move away from that rigid position to say that because this is what we have agreed on, we have to make sure that it passes. It will have fundamental problems not just problems of inelegance but even problems of passing the test – [AN HON.
MEMBER: Inaudible interjection.] – No. Hon. Chair, I think the Hon. Minister is actually being enjoined to see the wisdom of doing away with this aspect of consultation. It does not add anything; if anything, it does subtract everything. There has not been any argument to say this is the addition to the independence of that Commission. So, may the Minister be persuaded, I know that if due regard is given to reason, she sees the wisdom of what is being suggested. I thank you very much Hon. Chair.
THE MINISTER OF STATE IN VICE PRESIDENT
MPHOKO’S OFFICE (HON. KANENGONI): Thank you Mr. Chair
and thank you Hon. Member. It quite surprises me that this issue is coming up at this stage because this Bill has gone through all stages of Parliament. When the Adverse Report came, one of the issues that we discussed had to do with the independence of the Commission and role of the Minister, and this was discussed at length by you as well, who are debating here today about this specific matter. I think we will stick to what we agreed on, because consultation does not mean that it is dictatorship. It does not mean that they have to listen to what he says; it is mere consultation in its simplest form. It takes away nothing from the independence of the Commission.
Clause 13 and 14 put and agreed to.
On Clause 15:
THE MINISTER FOR STATE IN VICE PRESIDENT
MPHOKO’S OFFICE (HON. KANENGONI): Thank you Mr.
Speaker. This is in response to the suggestions brought by Hon. Ziyambi and Hon. Majome on the reports of the Commission. I would like to say that Clause 15 (1) and (4), require the Commission to submit reports in terms of Section 323 and 253 of the Constitution respectively.
Such reports will include the operations and activities of the
Commission which will take into account the concerns raised by Hon. Ziyambi. Clause 15 (3) provides for the methodology of submitting additional reports upon request by Parliament. Section 323 (2) of the Constitution allows an Act of Parliament to provide for the manner in which such additional reports may be submitted to Parliament.
With regards to Hon. Majome’s concern on the need to expand Clause 15 (6) to cover all functions of the Commission, the various reports that the Commission will be expected to produce as highlighted above will include several recommendations on a number of issues. It is out of these recommendations that the proposal by Hon. Gonese of a new clause after Clause 15 covering implementation of the
Commission’s report will fit in. The proposal has been accepted, as the responsible Minister we then lay before Parliament, recommendations that Government is implementing and those that it is not implementing and the reasons thereof.
Amendment to Clause 15 put and agreed to.
Clause 15, as amended put and agreed to.
On Clause 16:
HON. MAJOME: Thank you Mr. Speaker Sir. I want to ask the
Hon. Minister to seriously and judiciously re-consider, I suppose both the wisdom, practicality and even the constitutionality of the proviso in Clause 16 (1) (c), which provides that any donations, grants or bequest made by any person, organisation or any Government of any country to the Commission shall be part of the Commission’s funds. Then it goes on to say, it is provided that the Commission shall accept such donations, grants or bequest after it has consulted the Minister.
Mr. Speaker Sir, I would like to raise a similar concern that, subjecting possible donations, grants or bequests from well wishers who are interested in supporting peace and reconciliation, requiring that the Commission should go and consult the Minister, to make it a proviso, seriously it hamstrings the independence of this Commission. This august House is already endowed by the Constitution, very wide and sweeping powers to exercise financial oversight. This Parliament actually provides the best strings but it does not help.
It clearly undermines the Constitution to do this. This Parliament has a duty to ensure that we uphold the independence of independent commissions. It is not clear what mischief it is that is meant to be addressed by the Commission, going to first ask the Minister that here is a donation or grant, can we accept it? The Minister’s role and function - with the greatest of respect, is something that does not help the Commission and it does not also help the nation. It is a direct barrier to independence. Commissioners are appointed in terms of the Constitution and selected because of their suitability, financial and other capacities. It is not necessary to do this.
It is also most unfortunate because we are a country whose fiscus is heavily lacking; the independent commissions that are in place are having difficulties sourcing funding and getting sufficient funding from the budget. It is our constitutional duty as Parliament, again that we are required to ensure that independent commissions are adequately funded. If we were to observe that when we know that our fiscus is struggling, it will not be prudent to then pass an Act that makes it a proviso that a commission can only receive donations and grants after consulting a
Minister. I know the Hon. Minister will say that ‘consulting’ like she said, consultation is just ordinary consultation, but there is a purpose to this consultation. What is that the Minister would want to give views about donations?
These commissions are already struggling, let us liberate them; let us unshackle them. I hope the Hon. Minister would agree to unshackle these independent commissions from the ball and chain of having to go and consult a Minister when it wants to receive grants and bequests, especially where it is drafted as a proviso. A proviso takes the consultations above the mere consultation where a person might not need to accept it or not. By making it a provis, this actually makes it mandatory. It clothes the Minister with power to say yes or no. So, I humbly and earnestly entreat the Hon. Minister to again remove this proviso from the Bill so that she allows this Parliament to do what it is meant to do, which is to support the independence of commissions. I refer particularly to Section 325, that says, we must make sure that we give independent Commissions like this one, financial power and muscle. This is the ball and chain that this Commission does not need. I
thank you.
HON. GONESE: Thank you Hon. Chair. I want to ask the
Minister – I know that it is the practice in this country to have scenarios where the Executive wants to get involved in almost everything. I think we must bear in mind the spirit and the underlying reasons why we have independent commissions. If we look at that principle and further to that, look at the way we select our Commissioners – you will find that in our very own Constitution, we have put in place stringent mechanisms and procedures as a result of which for one to be selected or to be appointed as a Commissioner; firstly that person has got to be nominated and the Constitution actually sets out the criteria of the calliber of people who can be appointed as Commissioners.
When you look at that process, you will find that only persons of integrity and high quality will actually make it. When we look at it in that context, it is my respectful submission that we would want to give that body of people that autonomy to make decisions so that if they think that in their wisdom they would want to accept a particular donation; I do not think that it is good practice or good policy to subject them again to some other discussion or influence from a member of the Executive. It is for that reason that apart from the issues which have been raised arising from the Constitution, I actually think that we must be moving away from a scenario or a situation where the Executive wants to control everything. Why not allow some of these bodies which you have set up in terms of our Constitution some latitude? I am sure that when you have got persons of that level, who have the integrity which I have mentioned, who are highly qualified, who have got the level of experience and who have made it through the rigorous process through the Committee on Standing Rules and Orders. I think that it is desirable to have that body of people being able to make their own decisions and accept donations without them having to seek the opinion or the view of a member of the Executive when in fact we have said that this is an independent commission.
I believe that as a matter of good practice, can the Hon. Minister perhaps reconsider and perhaps have a scenario where in terms of acceptance of donations, we leave it within the discretion of members of the Commission.
THE MINISTER OF STATE IN VICE PRESIDENT
MPHOKO’S OFFICE (HON. KANENGONI): I want to acknowledge
the comments that have been made especially in relation to making sure that the Commission is well funded to be able to do its work. This is why we have included this clause to say that they are allowed to seek donations, contributions and so on so that their work is done accordingly.
However, we have to think about protecting the work of the Commission as well as the sovereignty of our nation where certain donations may come to try and interfere with the work of the Commission instead of helping it. Some donations may become political donations and this may not need the decision of the Commission alone but they may need assistance to decipher whether donations should be made. Image a situation where a terrorist organisation wants to donate to the Commission. Is this something we must just accept or it is something we must help to decide whether it is a good idea or not.
I really do not think it takes away the Commission’s independence because the Commission is not helped by the Minister to choose who the donor will be. They go out and look for the donor themselves and so on. No one stops them from looking for the donors but it is to make sure that the funding that is coming in is clean funding and to ensure that the Commission is not disturbed in its operations.
Clause 16 put and agreed to.
On Clause 17:
HON. MAJOME: I would like to entreat the Hon. Minister again to reconsider striking out the very and unduly onerous provision that has been proposed in Clause 17 (2), which is in fact proposing that a Commission which is giving a duty on the Commission to prepare and submit to the Minister a statement of its accounts for the year. This Commission has a very short duration and lifespan. It is subject to the financial controls in the Constitution requiring the administration of public funds. It is also subject to and must adhere to Zimbabwe’s very robust public finance management system, particularly the Public Finance Management Act – [HON. ADV. CHAMISA: Inaudible
interjection.] –
THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON: Hon. Member, order. You
may continue but your Vice President has been disturbing you.
HON. MAJOME: Thank you Hon. Chairman. This requirement for the Commission to then be given the burden of accounting to the
Minister to producing its financial accounts to the Minister, by just one
Clause, turns an independent Commission into an Executive Commission. Why should an independent Commission financially account to a Minister when it is actually required to account to Parliament in terms of the Constitution?
In terms of the Constitution, the Commission is already required to provide or submit financial accounts in terms of Section 323 – the Commission must submit a report to Parliament through the Hon. Minister responsible. Parliament may also cause the Commission submit further reports to itself and not to a Minister. With due respect, I think this might have been an oversight on the part of the Minister that it is necessary that we keep independent Commissions independent and
Executive Commissions independent. If this was an Executive Commission, then it may very well be that if the Minister wants financial reports, he can get but this Commission is going to report annually to Parliament and it shall in its annual reports, give statements.
It is this House that is required to scrutinise the work of the Commission.
This House already also has a very robust Public Accounts Committee whose role is to scrutinise reports through the public finance management system. Each and every year, the Auditor-General must audit accounts of the Commission and then that report goes again to the scrutiny of the Public Accounts Committee and this Committee reports to this House. But to require the Commission to do another report every year to the Minister is to burden it unnecessarily with administrative issues that are adequately catered for not only in the annual report but also in the robust public finance management system.
As I indicated, Mr. Chairman, this Commission has a very short life-span. It has a lot of work to do. It must be conducting truth telling, trying to make sure that we prevent further conflict, it must operate in the past, it must deal with redress; it must do so many things in a short ten years. If it is then to spend its time writing financial reports to the Minister, the people of Zimbabwe are going to be short changed because it will not have the time. Further on, it is already provided for. Let this Commission report to Parliament. Let us not turn it into an Executive Commission by requiring the Minister to be reported to financially. It will not be independent. Let us allow the existing financial controls to prevail. This is totally unnecessary at all.
HON. ADV. CHAMISA: I would just like to buttress the wisdom and logic of making sure that Clause 17 is freed and liberated from the claws and manacles of the Executive. You are aware that this is a Constitutional Commission, an independent Commission. It should not be subjected to the Executive. Why? Because once we subject it to the Executive, we are now reducing the Executive into a prefect of the independent Commission. It is now becoming a policy to the
Independent Commission. We do not want a policy. We do not want to have checks and balances that are not in line with what is in the
Constitution.
I have read the Philadelphia Papers in terms of how constitutionalism evolved on what is called the tyranny of offices. There has to be the balance of the tyrannies. Now, if we are going to allow the
Executive to have an overbearing effect and an overbearing role on this Commission, we are literally not only going to narrow but also hamstring the work that is supposed to be done, especially considering that we have some serious challenges of resources in our country. That put in tandem with the issue of the limited scope and term that has to be lived by this Committee, why do we not just move away from this unnecessary chain which seeks to handcuff the activities of this Commission.
Hon. Minister, yes, it is good to have a government, but government is best that governs least. If you have a government that governs too much, you have a government that is so weak, a government that is paranoid, a government that ultimately is not able to also give effect and oxygen to the independence of these Constitutional Commissions that have been birthed by deed of a process that is quite consultative.
So, I once again appeal to your good senses and seek to appeal to the undermining of that sense that is visiting you to say, there is no logic in what we are contributing. Hon. Minister, please, we want to seek your indulgence and arouse your good sense so that you interfere with that which seeks to undermine your good reasoning, particularly on this one on behalf of Government. Thank you very much.
THE MINISTER OF STATE IN VICE PRESIDENT
MPHOKO’S OFFICE (HON. KANENGONI): Thank you very much
Hon. Members for your contributions. I think it is quite surprising to me that Hon. Members would not want public funds to be accounted for and yet this funding that will be coming to the Commission will be funding that comes from the Treasury. The Minister also has to report to this very Parliament the progress of the Commission and how everything is going according to Section 323 of the Constitution which says, ‘every
Commission must submit to Parliament through the responsible Minister’. So, through that Minister as well, he must also be able to
account for the funds that go to the Commission to Government.
So, there is no such thing as no checks and balances. The checks and balances must be there because, like you said Hon. Chamisa, we have limited funding, so we must make sure that limited funding is being used appropriately, which is why I will not agree with you.
HON. GONESE: Thank you very much, Hon. Chair. I was listening very attentively to what the Minister said in response to the submissions made by Hon. Majome and Hon. Chamisa and it appears to me, she is really missing the point and I will explain why.
First and foremost, if you look at the closing question, Hon.
Minister, the Clause is very clear. We are talking of the accounts of the Commission and it is really formulated in a very elaborate manner. I will actually go over it very slowly to really explain the point that I am making. It says, ‘accounts of Commission and appointment of internal auditor’.
First and foremost, in terms of the Bill and when it becomes an Act of Parliament, the Commission is actually obliged to follow what is in this Clause which will then become a section when the Bill becomes law. It is very clear that the Commission shall ensure that proper accounts and other records relating to such accounts are kept in respect of all the Commission’s activities. In other words, the Commission will not have any choice, the provisions are peremptory, and they are not discretionary. So, the Commission itself is forced by the law to have those proper accounts.
More importantly, the Act, when it becomes law, will then ensure that there is an appointment of an internal auditor as provided for in the Public Finance Management Act. So, whatever accounts had been prepared by the Commission are subjected to the process of internal auditing. Here, when you are having that process, it means that you have got the first hurdle which the Commission will have to pass in order to ensure that they have got proper accounts. What my colleagues have been trying to point out is that this Commission will make its reports to Parliament. I think the simple point of departure is where the clause obliges the Commission to submit their statements of accounts to a Minister who is a member of the Executive.
I think what we want to emphasise here is that, if there is to be anything and remember these accounts are going to be laid before Parliament; in terms of the Public Finance Management Act, we actually have a scenario where the Auditor General has the power to audit the accounts, not just of Government departments, but of all those other public bodies. So as a result, you are not going to have a situation where the Commission’s accounts are simply going to be subjected to the internal process. What it means is, if there is anything amiss, the Auditor General will actually have a report which will come before this august House through the Portfolio Committee on Public Accounts.
So, at the end of the day, what we are saying is that there are already sufficient controls and what we are trying to avoid is a situation where an independent Commission, as a matter of policy, is being subjected to submit its reports to a Minister. We really want to have a separation and this is another point which I want to emphasise to the Hon. Minister, that when we look at the doctrine of separation of powers, we have got these three arms of the State and already the Commission is not among those three arms, but its reports and everything that it does will ultimately come before the representatives of the people, which is one of the arms of the State.
It is for that reason that I want to implore, to plead and to ask the Hon. Minister to really take the submissions into account and hopefully, we can have a meeting of the minds so that we accept that the controls which are already in existence are sufficient for the purpose of ensuring that funds are properly utilised and are not abused in any way. I thank you Mr. Chairman.
HON. CHASI: Thank you very much Mr. Chair. I think in the circumstances of this debate, I did not quite understand the aversion to the involvement of the Minister in these circumstances. I do not believe that the submission of the report to the Minister constitutes an interference with the work of the Commission or an interference with the independence of the work of the Commission as contemplated by the Constitution.
I would submit that a submission of the report, as contemplated by the Minister in the subsection that is under discussion at this moment in time, is really ex abundanti cautela and I would say that that report is an extra protection to public funds; that report can be used as information to the exchequer to know precisely how public funds have been used. It is an extra protection. I think we need to disabuse ourselves of the approach that says wherever the word Minister exists, it means interference in the work of a Commission. I do not think that it means that and I think in this instance, there is no interference whatsoever.
THE MINISTER OF STATE IN VICE PRESIDENT
MPHOKO’S OFFICE (HON. KANENGONI): I agree with
everything that the previous Hon. Member has said.
Clause 17 put and agreed to.
Clause 18 put and agreed to.
On new Clause:
HON. GONESE: First before I move the amendment, I just want to point out that there is a typographical error on the amendment. With the leave of the Chair on sub-clause (3), which is on the clause there is an omission there where it reads ‘…a grant of from prosecution…’ there is supposed to have been a word of ‘immunity’. It was just a typographical error. So, I just seek the leave of the Chair to have that amended by pen. So, Hon. Minister, if you can also take it into account that there is a word missing. It was supposed to read ‘a grant of immunity’; otherwise as it reads it would not make sense. So, if we can just insert that word which was omitted by error.
I now move the amendment standing in my name that:
Between lines 4 and 5 on page 19 of the Bill, to insert the following clauses after clause 18:
“20. Immunity from prosecution
- Subject to this section, the Commission may grant an immunity from prosecution to any particular person who has given evidence before the Commission and who—
- has acknowledged responsibility for any offence which constitutes a human-rights violation; and
- in the Commission’s opinion, has shown remorse for his or her involvement in the human-rights violation:
Provided that the Commission shall not grant immunity in respect of —
- murder; or
- any conduct that constitutes genocide for the purpose of the
Genocide Act [Chapter 9:20]; or
- any offence that constitutes a war crime or a crime against
humanity under any international convention, treaty or agreement to which Zimbabwe is a party; or
- a sexual crime specified in sections 65 to 75 of the Criminal
Law (Codification and Reform) Act [Chapter 9:23]; or
- an offence involving the abuse of a child.
- For the purpose of granting immunity from prosecution, the
Commission shall establish a committee, to be known as the Clemency
Committee, consisting of five persons of whom—
- the majority shall have had experience in working with
victims of human-rights violations; and
- at least two shall themselves be victims of human-rights
violations; and when considering a grant of immunity, the Commission shall take due account of the Committee’s recommendations made after hearing representations from any victims of the human-rights violation committed by the person concerned.
- A grant of prosecution by the Commission shall be in writing and shall specify clearly the offence for which immunity is granted, and the grant shall give the person to whom it is granted a complete defence in any prosecution in which he or she is charged with that offence.
- Commission to have access to information
(1) In this section—
“public officer” means—
- a member of a statutory body; or
- a person holding a paid office in the service of the State
or a statutory body;
“statutory body means—
- a Commission established by the Constitution; or
- a provincial or metropolitan council or local authority;
or
- a body corporate established directly by or under an Act
of Parliament for special purposes specified in that Act, whose membership consists wholly or mainly of persons appointed by the President, a Vice-President, a Minister, a Deputy Minister, another statutory body or by a
Commission established by the Constitution.
- On request by the Commission, all public officers shall without delay provide the Commission with any information in their custody which the Commission may reasonably require for the purpose of carrying out its functions under the Constitution or this Act.
- Any person who fails or refuses, without just cause, to comply with a request by the Commission in terms of subsection (2) shall be guilty of an offence and liable to a fine not exceeding level six or to imprisonment for a period not exceeding three months or to both such fine and such imprisonment.
- Reference of disputes to arbitration or mediation
- Where the Commission is called upon to resolve any dispute among communities, organisations, groups or individuals, it may refer the dispute for resolution by arbitration or mediation.
- Subject to this section, the Arbitration Act [Chapter 7:15] shall apply to a dispute referred to arbitration in terms of subsection (1).
- Before referring a dispute to arbitration or mediation, the
Commission shall afford the parties a reasonable opportunity of making representations on the matter.
- In referring a dispute to arbitration or mediation, the Commission, after consultation with the parties to the dispute, shall determine the arbitrator’s or mediator’s terms of reference.
- In referring a dispute to arbitration or mediation, the
Commission shall appoint as an arbitrator or mediator a person whose name appears on a list of arbitrators or mediators, as the case may be, referred to in subsection (6).
- The Minister, in consultation with the Judicial Service
Commission, shall from time to time prepare—
- a list of arbitrators; and
- a list of mediators;
consisting of persons whom they consider to be experienced or qualified in arbitration or mediation, as the case may be.
- In hearing and determining any dispute, an arbitrator shall have the same powers as the Administrative Court.
- At the conclusion of an arbitration under this section, the arbitrator shall submit sufficient certified copies of his or her arbitral award to each of the parties affected by it.
- Any party to whom an arbitral award relates may submit for registration the copy of it furnished to him in terms of subsection (8) to the Registrar of the High Court.
- Where arbitral award has been registered in terms of
Sub-section (9) it shall have the effect, for purposes of enforcement, of a civil judgment of the High Court.
- Any person who, without just cause—
- refuses to appear before an arbitrator or mediator when
called upon to do so by the Commission; or
- hinders or obstructs an arbitrator or mediator in the exercise
of his or her functions under this section;
shall be guilty of an offence and liable to a fine not exceeding level twelve or to imprisonment for a period not exceeding six months or to both such fine and such imprisonment.”.
At the present moment, in the Bill the issues of pardon are under the miscellaneous provisions. What I am seeking to do is to have issues relating to immunity from prosecution and any pardons, to be in the main body of the Bill so that if the Bill becomes an Act of Parliament, one actually comes across it when you are looking at the Bill itself. Sometimes when you have got things that are put in miscellaneous provisions, people do not notice them and I think that is one of the things which I think we would want to avoid.
Now going into the essence of the amendment, it is really to have situation where those issues are properly circumscribed so that the Commission itself does not have a blanket authority just to grant the immunity but it has got some exceptions. For example, the Commission will not be entitled to grant any immunity to offences such as murder; any conduct that constitutes genocide for the purposes of the Genocide Act; or any offence that constitutes a war crime or crime against humanity under any international convention, treaty or agreement to which Zimbabwe is a party; or any sexual crime which is specified in terms of the Criminal Law (Codification and Reform) Act; or any offence involving the abuse of a child.
So, in other words Mr Chairman, we are saying whilst the Commission will have the general power to grant pardons or immunities from prosecution, it will be limited and it will not extend to such heinous crimes as set out in the proviso but otherwise, if any immunities to be granted Mr. Chair, the proposed amendment also provides for a clemency committee which shall guide the Commission so that the Commission acts from something where there is an input from a particular specialised committee.
I think it is imperative that we enshrine this in the Act so that in terms of its operations, you will now have a scenario where everyone knows exactly how the Commission can exercise those powers, which by the way, are powers you just do not want to leave as being too broad.
You do not want a scenario where people can start wondering as to where or why certain things would have been done but there is a due process which will have been followed. For that reason, I would really ask the Minister to read it carefully and take it on board so that it becomes part of the Bill.
THE MINISTER OF STATE IN VICE PRESIDENT
MPHOKO’S OFFICE (HON. KANENGONI): Thank you Hon.
Gonese for suggesting inclusion of a new clause after Clause 18 and we have scrutinised it at length. We believe that this clause may scare away witnesses from testifying before the Commission. This may further discourage truth telling. Ultimately, this may negatively impact upon processes of peacebuilding, national healing and reconciliation.
Immunity is already provided for in terms of Clause 10 (3) of the Bill. This said proposed new clause violates the right to silence. Compelling someone to testify against himself or herself and then finding him or her guilty on the basis of such evidence is against the principle of the right to silence. So, I will not accept this amendment.
Amendment to new Clause put and negatived.
On Clause 19:
HON. MAJOME: I recognise that the Hon. Minister proposes that the last paragraph sub-paragraph (e) provides that regulations may provide the procedure for granting a pardon. Mr. Speaker Sir, I am concerned about making provisions that the Hon. Minister did well by thinking that regulations might provide for a pardon. I am concerned that she and the Hon. Minister stopped at only mentioning pardons yet there are other very critical issues around justice, reparations, compensation, truth telling and memorialisation. It does not make the Bill look very much in good faith if it stops specifying that regulations may be provided for pardons and does not go in the same breadth to state that the regulations...
THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON: Order, Hon. Members!
HON. MAJOME: By not mentioning the other even more
germane issues about peace and reconciliation, the issues that those who want to benefit from peace and reconciliation want, They want justice, reparations, truth telling and memorialisation sometimes. So, for Clause 19 paragraph (e), to just mention pardons maybe very well but without going ahead to then provide for that regulations must specifically spell out how people can get compensation, reparation, justice, truth telling and memorialisation casts the Bill in a bad light. It makes the Bill look as if its intention might be to avoid dealing with the past and dealing with these issues and may be concerned only with pardons but not dealing now with the violation. It is my plea to the Hon. Minister again, that in the same vein as she proposes that the regulations provide a procedure and conditions for granting of pardons, it must also in the same vein indicate that the regulations may also provide for the procedure and conditions for the access to justice, reparations, truthtelling and memorialisation so that it is a balanced Bill and it does not look like it is just trying to avoid the issues that would be grieving those who survived violations and so on.
THE MINISTER OF STATE IN VICE PRESIDENT
MPHOKO’S OFFICE (HON. KANENGONI): Thank you Mr.
Chairman. I would like to request that I have time to think about it and respond to it as the last response.
On First Schedule:
HON. GONESE: I move the amendment standing in my name
that between lines 26 to 29 on page 14 of the Bill, to delete the proviso to paragraph 2 (2).
THE MINISTER OF STATE IN VICE PRESIDENT
MPHOKO’S OFFICE (HON. KANENGONI): In response to the
suggestion by Hon. Gonese to the First Schedule, I would like to say that members of the Commission are appointed on a full time basis, hence the proviso should stand. Appointments to the Commission need a person with an independent mind who is not attached to any other organisation for them to be able to impartially and independently serve the Commission. Any attachment to any organisation will affect the impartiality of the member. The proposal is thus not accepted.
HON. MAJOME: Mr. Chairman, I take it I have a permission to debate the First Schedule, Clause 1. I want to express my alarm and hope the Hon. Minister can see it in the same light that the very first paragraph of the First Schedule is an amendment. It proposes an amendment to the Constitution and its effect would very well be the same as passing Constitution Amendment (No. 2). I say this because it proposes that in the appointment of members of the Commission, the
President shall, “as far as is practically possible, observes the
Constitution”. Mr. Speaker Sir, I think it is an anomaly way, where a
Schedule of a Bill seeks to amend the Constitution. The Constitution on Section 90 provides very categorically and very emphatically that it is the duty of the President to and I quote, “the President must uphold, defend, obey and respect this Constitution as the supreme law of the nation and must ensure that this Constitution and all other laws are faithfully observed”.
Mr. Chairman, to allow a Schedule of a Bill to detract, to reduce the duty of the President as far as the Constitution is concerned to merely, following the Constitution as far as is practically possible is in fact an amendment of Section 90. This should not be allowed. The President must uphold, defend and obey the Constitution. Those four words are put there one by one for a reason. There is a third emphasis that provides that he must ensure that it is observed but there is the third point of emphasis that does not stop there. But not only that, he has a duty to make others observe it, not just observe it but it says faithfully observe. I want to propose that this will be very worrying and may be challenged in a Constitutional Court. I want to propose that it does not help the Hon. Minister to keep this clause which amends the
Constitution. We cannot amend the Constitution in this way.
A Constitutional Bill, if it wants to come must be brought in the proper manner in terms of the Constitution. We cannot amend the Constitution in this way. We cannot amend provisions of the Constitution with schedules of Bills. If the Hon. Minister were to remove this, it does not take anything away because the President already knows. He took His Excellency the President’s function and he understands it and it is to fulfil the Constitution. So to try and reduce that duty here is not very helpful. His Excellency the President is duty bound and he will do so but the First Schedule, Clause 1 would amend Section 90 (1) of the Constitution. It should not stand. It will actually cloud the Bill. This should be removed with respect.
The second point I wish to raise Mr. Chairman is that in sub-clause 2 of Clause 2 of the First Schedule on line number 13, it is another unfortunate inadvertent. I do not want to believe that the Hon. Minister wants to amend the Constitution. Clause 2 (2) of the First Schedule, this sub clause would have the effect of also being an amendment because it provides that a member shall hold office on such terms and conditions as the President may fix.
Mr. Chairman, this flies directly in the face of the clear provisions of Section 320 (6) and (7) of the Constitution which provides that the terms and conditions of service of members of Commissions shall be fixed by Parliament. That Clause, Section 320 (6) says that on the Conditions of Service of Members of Commissions such as these Commissions, it is provided already that members of Commissions are entitled to such remuneration, allowances and other benefits as may be fixed by or under an Act of Parliament. It does not say the President. To make the President fix those conditions is indeed a departure from the Constitution. As I said, I do not believe that it is the Hon. Minister’s intention to seek to have Parliament amending the Constitution through a Schedule to a Bill.
This adds nothing to the Bill and it subtracts nothing from the Bill. It is something that is unhelpful but that is also unconstitutional. It can be left out without anything because in any event, the Constitution provides what must be done. The salaries must be made but not in a manner that the President fixes that. That is why they charge on the Consolidated Revenue Fund to ensure that they are independent.
Mr. Chairman, I also want to draw the Hon. Minister’s attention to Clause 3 of the First Schedule, paragraph (d) (1). I think possibly, the Hon. Minister might have made an inadvertent error where they seek to disqualify a person from being a member of the Commission who has been convicted in Zimbabwe for an offence. Mr. Chairman, a traffic offence is an offence. If I park wrongly and traffic police comes and I plead that yes, I have not parked properly or I have gone past a stop sign, it is a criminal offence. I would want to think that it not the intention of the Minister to say, each and every single offence is the one that disqualifies a member from being a member of the Commission.
I want to think that possibly, the Hon. Minister wants to put in place certain offences that are serious, that are to do with breach of trust and violence, not just an offence. I hope she attends to that. I want to go also to Clause 7 on meetings and procedures of the Commission to where she is proposing that the Commission’s first meeting shall be held on a date declared by – [HON. KANENGONI: Where are you? I am lost.] – Subclause 7 of the First Schedule, on page 15 of the Bill, the bottom one where they are proposing that the Commission holds its first meeting on a date and place that the Hon. Minister may fix.
Mr. Chairman, this again is another needless and unwarranted attack on the independence of a Commission. An independent Commission is a Commission and surely it should decide when it holds its first meeting and where it holds it and what place. Why should the Hon. Minister want to tell an independent Commission where it holds its first meeting, date and the time? It does not really help anyone. The Commission will have a Chairperson and I am sure the Chairperson can decide where and when to hold a meeting and the Commission can also decide. This puts a bad light on the Hon. Minister, it may make it look like the Hon. Minister wants to control everything, even things like these and it is not fair to the Hon. Minister. Can this also be removed?
Also on Clause 9 of the First Schedule, it is an issue that is related to what I raised earlier around the remuneration of the Commission. To make His Excellency the President fix remuneration from time to time should only be done in accordance with Section 320 (6) of the
Constitution where Parliament must fix the conditions and remuneration. Let us not amend the Constitution through the backdoor even if it is inadvertent.
Finally, Mr. Chairman, I want to go to the Second Schedule which is my last point. On the Second Schedule, on paragraph 12, the
Commission is being proposed to be given the power to buy, I quote, “dwelling houses or land for residential purposes and construct houses and improve dwelling houses or land which is the property of its members”. Mr. Chairman, this Commission is a Commission that has a short lifespan and it should maybe be a 10 year Commission in terms of the Constitution. Why is the Commission being given the power to buy houses and land, for who? This is really unnecessary, it would burden the Commission unnecessarily; because surely by now, these
Commissioners must have their own houses somewhere. If they do not have their own houses, they must go to Council Housing Waiting lists, we should not burden the tax payer with empowering the Commission to buy houses for Commissioners.
Surely if they do not have houses by now, I want to believe that they might not really qualify and have the stature to organise their lives and be mature people who can be entrusted with public policy. Why should they want to be given houses by a Commission when they have 10 years? Any money that the Commission has must be invested and used for the public who want peace and reconciliation. This Commission must not be buying houses, stands and building houses for Commissioners and staff. This would be the proverbial gravy train, may the Hon. Minister just withdraw that, because it is an undue burden on the taxpayer. I thank you. – [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] –
THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON: Order, order please, I will
give you time to debate if you have some issues.
THE MINISTER OF STATE IN VICE PRESIDENT
MPHOKO’S OFFICE (HON. KANENGONI): Thank you very much
Mr. Chairman. In response to Hon. Majome’s query in the First
Schedule, the 1st paragraph on appointment of members of the Commission, we accept your proposal.
In respect to the second one where it says, “subject to paragraph nine, a member shall hold office on such terms and conditions as the
President may fix”, we agree with you as well. I think that was an oversight. – [HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.] –
Then where you are talking about the offence the IDI, where it says within a period of five years immediately preceding the date of his/her proposed appointment being convicted 1(i) in Zimbabwe of an offence. We also agree that it is too vague so we are proposing to say, in
Zimbabwe, of an offence involving dishonesty. – [HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear.] –
On meetings and procedures of the Commission on 7, where you are saying it is not proper for the Hon. Minister to fix the day and place of the Commission’s meeting. We also agree that it is not acceptable. Unfortunately, I did not hear the last part if you do not mind repeating, the one where you were talking about houses and stands, if you could kindly repeat that one.
HON. MAJOME: Thank you Hon. Minister, I must really begin by thanking…
THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON: Hon. Majome, please go to
point.
HON. MAJOME: Yes, I want to thank the Hon. Minister for being gracious and …
THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON: That can also be conveyed by
silence -[Laughter.] –
HON. MAJOME: The Hon. Minister had also asked me to reiterate and I will be very brief on the issues I raised. One of them was also around Clause 9, which is related to Clause 1, the issue about the fixing of conditions of service. The Hon. Minister had not responded to that because it is related to Clause 9 about…
THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON: Order, order Clause 9 has
already been adopted.
HON. MAJOME: No there were two, there was that one and she had not responded to the second one. I was going to proceed to second and last one, the one on housing. – [HON. KANENGONI: On the First Schedule?] – On the First Schedule, it was Clause 9 also, I would be grateful to benefit from the response of the Hon. Minister because it is related to the point I raised on Clause 1 as well as number two of the First Schedule.
Then the last issue is the issue in the Second Schedule, paragraph 12 of the Second Schedule which seeks to empower the Commission …
THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON: Order Hon. Majome, we have
not yet gone to the Second Schedule.
HON. MAJOME: On Clause 9 of the First Schedule, my concern
is similar to the concern I raised with respect Clause 1 and particularly Clause 2 - that is on the fixing of conditions of service and remuneration of the Commissioners. I want to believe that this particular clause and because conditions of service are set by an Act of Parliament. His Excellency the President can fix them, but it must really be clear that it is in terms of the provisions of Section 320 (6) that it will be an Act of Parliament as the Constitution says; that will fix the conditions of service, remuneration and benefits of Members of Parliament. This seems to accord with what had been removed earlier.
HON. KANENGONI: Just a point of clarification Hon. Majome,
are you saying that it must quote the part of the Constitution?
HON. MAJOME: Yes, I am concerned that it may look like it is circumventing the Constitution, because it looks like it is related to the other provisions - but I will be happy if maybe the understanding is that it is there, but in light of Section 360 - in accordance with Section 320
(6), so that it is clear.
HON. KANENGONI: Where it is coming from?
HON. MAJOME: Indeed.
HON. KANENGONI: Accepted.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON: Hon. Majome, I propose that
you put all the amendments that you are proposing in writing so that we do not miss exactly what you want to say.
HON. MAJOME: Very well Mr. Chairman, we will do that.
Amendment to First Schedule put and agreed to.
First Schedule, as amended, put and agreed to.
On Schedule;
HON. MAJOME: Thank you Mr. Chairman. I want the Hon.
Minister to please consider removing Clause 12. As far as it pertains to empowering the Commission to buy houses and stands for the residence of members or for building houses, improving houses and lands that are properties of members. I say this because I think that it does not make sense and look good if I can say, for Parliament to burden the tax payers with buying houses for grown men who are appointed to be a commissioner at sometime in their life. In particular, it is because this Commission has a tenure of 10 years and for the tax payers to buy houses, land, build houses for commissioners and members of staff of a Commission that will be there for 10 years, does not look like something that is fair at all. It would look like it is adding to what is the proverbial
‘gravy train’ and my submission is that commissioners - I want to believe are people who are selected for their stature in society and for their experience and so on. So, I would want to think that by the time they become Commissioners, surely they must be living somewhere, and if they have a house they might have bought a house or might be renting somewhere. For them to then seek to be housed and to have houses bought for them by the Commission, it is really unfair. It is actually maybe just giving houses to people who already have houses, but even if they do not have, why should the tax payers be buying houses for people who are in a Commission for ten years when our fiscus is really struggling? Zimbabweans are suffering generally and we must not be legislating for the gravy train. I want to propose that surely, there must be other conditions of services that can be fair and commensurate with even the duration of the Commission.
If we have done this already for other Commissions, I want to think we have made a grave error, because maybe I was not paying attention for other Commissions possibly, we could not have passed similar clauses where Commissions buy and build houses for their staff. Mr. Chair, I think we must draw the line somewhere; we cannot continue like this. People should not be housed, clothed and fed at the expense of the tax payers who are really struggling. Let the Commission use any money that it has to better the welfare and the interest of the people of Zimbabweans who want to experience peace and reconciliation not be buying houses, stands and building houses for staff who are going to last for ten years only. I really beg the Hon. Minister to remove that.
THE MINISTER OF STATE IN VICE PRESIDENT
MPHOKO’S OFFICE (HON. KANENGONI): Thank you Hon.
Majome for repeating that bit of your contribution. I want to first state and I think you said this at the end of your contribution that it might be something that has been done to all Commissions. Yes, this is actually quite uniform with all other Commissions and it will be amiss to remove this provision just for this particular Commission. I also want to bring to your attention that the Commission will not be buying houses for them or clothing them the way that you have said it. These are loans that they may take out that they must repay back. If you look at paragraph 30, “it says to register in the Commission’s name” like whatever is bought “must be registered in the Commission’s name any property whether movable or immovable, purchased for any member of the Commission or member of staff through loan or loan guarantee, until the loan or loan guarantee has been discharged.” So, it is not the Commission just buying for them like as a condition of service but it is from time to time, if they want to borrow, then that is what is says and it is not unique to this Commission; it is the same for the Human Rights Commission and other Commissions as well.
HON. MLISWA: Thank you Mr. Chair. I want to support Hon.
Majome on this; you get loans from the bank, we cannot have a Commission operating like a bank. Because other Commissions have been giving them loans, it does not mean we must support that, we must bring it to a stop because all they are doing is going there focusing on this. If at all they want to have a loan, they must go to the bank and get a loan because we cannot have a situation like this. Even Members of Parliament who have oversight over them, do not have access to those loans. We are as poor as anything, yet our standard of life must be better as people who have oversight. We are underfunded and we need to cut down on the expenditure of the Executive at every level. The Executive have been extravagant and as Parliament we must cut down on the expenditure of the Executive – [HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.] - We cannot have a situation where Commissioners come in for ten years only and they walk away with a house. We need Commissioners who are going to serve this country Mr. Chair. We do not need Commissioners who are looking for houses.
We cannot have a situation like that, we need people who are seasoned who are retired, mature, of integrity and who are not looking for money but who are looking at serving the country. This Truth and Reconciliation Commission is critical in attaining that, and for me- I would be very worried if we are offering this, yet this money can go towards social healing. There is so much more that is required to be able to deal with this.
Mr. Chairman, I want to say that we cannot at all allow a situation where even if the Hon. Minister says that yes - I think you actual have done well Hon. Minister in conceding to a lot and you are one person who is very reasonable and show that you are also different from others. You must not copy what is wrong because it has happened; you are a different person, young and vibrant Minister who wants to ensure that this country moves forward and so forth. If you are supporting this, it will show that a certain generation is now in force and it is looking forward to the future of the country. Let us save money for future generations to come and not give it to one generation.
The war veterans are not even given this, the war veterans Mr. Chairman who fought for this country were not even given houses. The people who brought this liberation we have were not given houses – [HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.] – So, we cannot. If we are to give people houses we must start with the freedom fighters of this country who liberated all of us. No wonder why Hon. Chamisa is sitting comfortably there, it is because of the struggle of this country – [HON. ADV. CHAMISA: I am not comfortable though.] - So, this one certainly must not go through.
HON. ZIYAMBI: Thank you Mr. Chairman. I think I concur
with my colleagues, this Clause should not see the light of the day. I think as Commissioners, these are mature people who have worked for a long time and who have been appointed for certain critical skills that they have acquired over time. For them to behave like school leavers who are getting in there to get loans and buy houses, I think it is burdening the taxpayers. Hon. Minister, you have been wonderful in terms of accepting things that have been proposed in this House and this is one concession that you should seriously consider because it does not help anyone. I thank you.
HON. ZINDI: Thank you Mr. Chairman. In concurrence with what Hon. Mliswa and Hon. Ziyambi said, I want to propose that
Commissioners to be appointed should be at least of age from 50/55 to 60. We need to be specific because these are Commissioners to deal with conflicts and they should be in a position to understand what conflict is all about; how to approach issues in terms of conflict resolution. It requires mature people. Therefore, to just leave it blank, we may end up bringing very immature Commissioners who would even cause more problems than resolving conflicts.
A good example is the South African Truth and Reconciliation Commission (TRC). You find that most of the Commissioners who were in there were people who were experienced in terms of life, conflicts and their well being. They were well to do people. Therefore, we should at least stipulate age to say may be 55 years and above. I thank you.
HON. ADV. CHAMISA: Thank you Chair. I cannot see the
Minister but this aspect of a sense of entitlement is basically what is problematic about the attitude of the Executive. This whole thing of thinking that the Commission is a feeding trough, we must have time to eat, instead of understanding that when you go into public offices, it is about service and sacrifice. This is the attitude we must deal with and expunge. We cannot have commissions or institutions where people are only accessing so that they are able to extent their stomachs; what was done by Thomas Meikles through the Loot Committee to say we have to come and start looting; feed from the trough of the nation.
Why should we talk about these gratuities; these so called benefits; yes we need to get good remuneration. I am told they are getting about $10 000 per month. That is what I am getting and Hon. Minister, you may need to correct us. We need to understand this; this whole thing of gratuities is not good. It is in line with the Pioneer Column mentality.
This is what the Pioneer Column did and we cannot perpetuate the Pioneer Column mentality in a free Zimbabwe.
Hon. Minister, I am hesitant to continue abusing you by these good arguments. Please bear with us Hon. Minister; we do not want the Pioneer Column. Let the Pioneer Column go back to Rhodesia. This is a new Zimbabwe, which is liberated. Let us save our people in line with a Zimbabwe that is liberated. Thank you.
HON. CHASI: Thank you Mr. Chair. I agree with the sentiments that have been expressed by those that have spoken before me. I would like to look at the issue from a different tangent. I feel that there must be uniformity of treatment of these commissions. We have had other commissions that have been created before this Commission and we
have not had a provision similar to the one that is under consideration at this moment in time where housing and similar benefits are precisely prescribed.
There must be uniformity of treatment. I hope what Hon. Mliswa
said, the figure of $10 000, is not true. If it is true, I understand that this
House would have prescribed those benefits; then there is some anomaly somewhere because we are supposed to be allowing those benefits. We are dealing here with a very important issue which goes to the hearts of people that I think have suffered for a very long time. The manner in which we treat the people who preside over these issues –[HON.
MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] – Can I be protected Hon. Chair.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON: You are protected.
HON. CHASI: But I cannot hear myself speak.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON: Hon. Zindi please.
HON. CHASI: I think the people that are carrying out this task have got to be people that have got the interests of the nation and the people that are affected at heart because they cannot afford to be mercenaries or people that want to be rich, get a house out of this function. I want to emphasise that when the Minister considers or Parliament considers the benefits that these people are supposed to get, there must be due consideration to the benefits that other members of other commissions are getting so that there is uniformity of treatment.
*HON. MARIDADI: Thank you Mr. Chairman. I would like to
comment on the issue of age that Hon. Zindi talked about. I think we will have challenges. If we go back to 1963 during the liberation struggle, the liberation struggle was not fought by the old people. If you look at the President, the late Vice President Nkomo and all the other people who led the struggle, they were around 30 years by then. The challenge we have now is the elderly; the aged who are in Government. So, we should give the young people a chance to govern.
I think it is better we have people who are below 55 to also run the Commission. People like Vice President Mphoko and other elderly would have done a better job before, once they become old it becomes difficult to bring them to book. We need to put the young who are still energetic and able to push the agenda forward.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON: Order, Hon. Maridadi, I do
not know what you are talking about and where it is coming from because it is not here.
HON. MARIDADI: I am responding to what Hon. Zindi said.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON: It is the Minister who should
respond. There is no such thing here.
The Chairperson having called the Hon. Minister to respond.
HON. MARIDADI: I am not yet through.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON: Hon. Maridadi, we want you
to talk of things that are in black and white, not what you want to talk about here. I will ask you to sit down.
HON. MARIDADI: Let me continue with my debate. I am
saying that the Commission is not even in the Constitution that people should be at a certain age for them to be part of the Commission. If people are 28 years and they have the capacity to be part of the Commission, they should be part of it.
*THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON: Hon. Member, please refer
to what is in the schedule.
*HON. MARIDADI: But Hon. Zindi said that before.
*THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON: You can sit down.
*HON. MARIDADI: Alright. May the Minister respond after I have said what I want to say? Why are you denying me the chance to talk?
*THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON: I will not allow you to. May you please sit down?
*HON. MARIDADI: Alright. You can put the aged in the
Commission; those who are 80, 90 and 100. I rest my case.
*THE DEOUTY CHAIRPERSON: Order Hon. Maridadi. At
one time you shall also come of age – [Laughter.] –
*HON. ZINDI: Infact, he is already old. He is over fifty-five. I would like to clarify why I said that because the criticism that was coming from ....
*THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON: I will not allow you. I am the only Chairperson here and nobody else.
*HON. ZINDI: I just wanted to ...
*THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON: May you pause Hon. Zindi. You have said whatever you wanted but that is not what we should be talking about. You have diverted from the debate.
THE MINISTER OF STATE IN VICE PRESIDENT
MPHOKO’S OFFICE (HON. KANENGONI): Thank you very much
Hon. Members for your extensive debate. Upon reflection and listening to what you were all saying, I have decided to accept your recommendation and to remove what is stated on the Second Schedule and then to include that they must be employed according to general conditions of service.
I move that we remove Clause 12 in the Second Schedule and replace it with; “the Commissioners shall be employed according to general conditions of service.”
Amendment to Clause 12 put and agreed to.
Clause 12, as amended, put and agreed to.
Schedule 2 put and agreed to.
House resumed.
Bill reported with amendments.
Bill referred to the Parliamentary Legal Committee.
On the motion of THE MINISTER OF LANDS AND RURAL RESETTLEMENT (HON. DR. MOMBESHORA), the House
adjourned at Fourteen Minutes past Four o’clock p.m. until Tuesday, 12th September, 2017.
PARLIAMENT OF ZIMBABWE
Wednesday, 2nd August, 2017
The National Assembly met at a Quarter-past Two o’clock p. m.
PRAYERS
(THE HON. SPEAKER in the Chair)
ANNOUNCEMENTS BY THE HON. SPEAKER
APPOINTMENT AND CHANGES TO PORTFOLIO
COMMITTEES MEMBERSHIP
THE HON. SPEAKER: I have to inform the House that Hon.
Brown Ndlovu has been assigned to serve on the following Portfolio
Committees;-
(a) Portfolio Committee on Health and Child Care and the (b) Portfolio Committee on Mines and Energy.
I also have to inform the House that Hon. Mahoka has been assigned to serve on the following Portfolio Committees;-
- Portfolio Committee on Health and Child Care and the
- Portfolio Committee on Lands, Agriculture, Mechanisation and Irrigation.
REMINDER OF A CLEAN-UP CAMPAIGN
THE HON. SPEAKER: I also have to remind the House that there will be a clean-up campaign for Harare Central Business District, tomorrow 3rd of August, 2017 from 1000hrs to 1300 hrs. Hon.
Members are urged to participate.
NOTICES OF ABSENCE
THE HON. SPEAKER: I have received Notices of Absence from the following Hon. Ministers:- Hon. Dr. Chombo; Hon.
Mupfumira; Hon. Prof. J. Moyo; Hon. Deputy Minister Eng. Matangaidze; Hon. Deputy Minister T. Mathuthu and Hon. Deputy Minister B. J. Mlambo.
VISITORS IN THE SPEAKER’S GALLERY
THE HON. SPEAKER: I have to acknowledge the presence in the Speaker’s Gallery, students and teachers from Chisere Primary School from Harare Province. You are most welcome. – [HON.
MEMBERS: Hear, hear.] –
HON. NDUNA: Mr. Speaker Sir, I rise on a point of order in terms of Standing Order 68.
THE HON. SPEAKER: That is not a point of order but a point
of priviledge.
HON. NDUNA: Yes, Mr. Speaker, may I go ahead?
THE HON. SPEAKER: Yes.
HON. NDUNA: Mr. Speaker, it has come to my attention that there is a young lady of 22 years of age who is moving around towns in particular, and other places taking children of four years and below and relocating them to other places other than their places of residence. Mr.
Speaker, I say this so that Hon. Members may be aware that …
THE HON. SPEAKER: Order, order Hon. Member, that is not a
point of priviledge. It is not a point of privilege and it does not affect you as a Member of Parliament.
HON. NDUNA: Mr. Speaker, I forgot to state that it is read with the Bill of Rights [Chapter 4]. – [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] –
THE HON. SPEAKER: Order, order a point of privilege must
relate to the Hon. Member’s privilege in the national interest.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE
*HON. SHAMU: My question is directed to the Minister of
Health and Child Care. Hon. Minister, I need enlightenment on what the policy says in terms of medical doctors marketing themselves either electronically or in print media on their various specialties. Are they permitted by the policy to do so?
*THE MINISTER OF HEALTH AND CHILD CARE (HON.
- PARIRENYATWA): Thank you Mr. Speaker Sir. I want to thank Hon. Shamu for the question that he raised on whether doctors are allowed to publicize or advertise their professions either by erecting bill boards or on the radio and different media. I think that is what his question was about.
Policy states that if a doctor has his own surgery or hospital, he is allowed to erect a board or poster to show what he is doing. Also, the print has certain measurements that should be observed but they are not allowed to go on air like on radio to advertise and encourage people to go to their surgeries. Still on that note, there are quite a lot of professional doctors and we have specialist doctors. We are amending that policy to ensure that doctors are able to advertise their specialties, that is allowed. Other countries actually allow this to be done in both the print and electronic media. We want to see how far we can go pertaining to that.
*HON. MUDARIKWA: Thank you Mr. Speaker Sir, what of
those who are advertising themselves in the newspapers and those found in faith based organisations who inform people that they are also healers? Is that in your policy as well because you are the one who looks at health issues? I thank you.
*THE HON. SPEAKER: Order, order Hon. Mudarikwa, your
question is not supplementary to the question raised by Hon. Shamu.
Prophetic healers are not doctors.
HON. MUDEREDZWA: My question is directed to the Minister of Tourism and Hospitality Industry, Eng. Mzembi. By way of policy direction, what is your ministry doing to influence the hospitality industry so that their pricing regime is competitive enough, in line with what is happening within the region? We realise that people are coming to Zimbabwe, but they do not want to spend a night here in Zimbabwe, they would rather prefer to come to Zimbabwe, go back to South Africa, come to Zimbabwe go back to Zambia and other places. What is it that you are doing as a ministry to influence them so that they also encourage even the local populace to stay in hotels? I thank you.
THE MINISTER OF TOURISM AND HOSPITALITY
INDUSTRY (HON. ENG. MZEMBI): Mr. Speaker Sir, let me thank the Hon. Member for his question. I have just come from the Reserve
Bank of Zimbabwe ahead of a monetary policy pronouncement or MidTerm by the Reserve Bank of Zimbabwe Governor. The statistics that we were comparing between me and him suggest otherwise. In fact, quite to the contrary, our occupancy rates are way, way up at this juncture. I can cite Victoria Falls, we are around 90%, in the same destination we have advanced bookings between 4 to 6 months of people who are coming to stay in Zimbabwe, because they are finding our pricing regime competitive on the back of incentives that are already being passed by the Reserve Bank of Zimbabwe to my sector and acknowledged by the sector. That notwithstanding, I wish to acknowledge that for the domestic tourism market, because of the use of the US dollar currency in our midst, we are finding a lot of difficulty in arriving at agreeable cost derivatives in US dollars, because the market including users of the same currency are speculative around this currency. They do not fully appreciate what margins they should be applying on their costs in hard currency.
This is why I have always advocated now and in the past, going forward into the future that maybe one day in the future, we need a currency that can induce internal devaluation and price competitiveness of our products. We have a choice of 10 currencies within the basket that are all working at common purpose to achieve the very same objective and I hope that we can direct the industry to now institute a differential pricing system for the domestic tourism sector. Otherwise internationally, we are competitive. I thank you.
HON. ZINDI: Thank you Hon. Speaker. As a follow up to the response by the Hon. Minister for Tourism and Hospitality Industry what steps is the Ministry taking in terms of promoting the domestic tourism? He has already mentioned the issue of price regime that it is too expensive. Can the Minister then highlight to this House what steps they have taken in terms of encouraging the domestic tourism, bringing together all the tourism – [HON. SHUMBA: Inaudible interjections.] –
THE HON. SPEAKER: Hon. Shumba.
HON. ZINDI: So that they can actually package the domestic tourism. In other words, with the aspect of saying whenever we are promoting and incentivizing tourism, we should not just look at the international at the expense of the local tourist in terms of promoting tourism locally. I thank you.
HON. ENG. MUZEMBI: Thank you Mr. Speaker. I would like
to thank the Hon. Member for this incisive question. The viability of domestic tourism is a function of the ability of the country to raise a middle class that can afford the product. I want to say that that action will certainly not come from tourism alone; it is a collective action of the entire country to raise a middle class that can afford the product. That notwithstanding, we are being creative around certain classes and categories that should be consuming the domestic product. I cite here what I have always advocated for as school tourism which can be directed at assets within our baskets of rooms and it includes national parks. We have a room stock of about 800 rooms under National Parks.
That could lend themselves very handy to school tourism.
I do not expect school children to be able to afford five start hotels in the Victoria Falls or three star hotels in Great Zimbabwe. We have room assets that can be afforded by our school children and they are within the ambit of National Parks. We are talking to National Parks so that we can make available that room stock to our school tourism. We have designed a civil servant travel incentive scheme that should be consumed by all civil servants; they are entitled to a holiday. We designed a scheme and we surrendered it to the employer, the Civil Service Commission, because it constitutes part of their conditions of employment. So, we are cautious of certain categories and classes that we can affirmatively begin to push towards enjoying the domestic product.
That notwithstanding and in response to how we are creating democratic access of the product beyond just talking about Victoria Falls. I have just completed an exercise leading to two weeks ago which has led to the consummation of 11 Tourism Development Zones around the country. We will reaching out to Parliament shortly, I think within the next fortnight to sensitise Parliament on what these zones are so that we can receive input from you as their authenticity in terms of how we have captured them at technical level from the Ministry.
They include products around the ancient city of Great Zimbabwe which is a tourism circuit in its own rights leading into Tokwe-Mukorsi to Gonarezhou. They include the entire Eastern Highlands - that whole range of mountains has been captured under those tourism development zones. They include the Midlenta product, they also include the area around Kariba. In fact, we have constituted 10 development zones that I shall be presenting by the way tomorrow, to the Special Economic Zone authority to see if they can begin to receive equal and similar treatment to what we have designated the Victoria Falls as a special economic zone.
There will be democratic access of the product, but I need to bring the output to Parliament so that they can input into it even before we take it to Cabinet, because it will be nice to make sure that it is all inclusive and conclusive around what we agree as Tourism Development Zones in the country. I thank you – [AN. HON. MEMBER: Inaudible
interjections.] –
THE HON. SPEAKER: You cannot in terms of our rules.
*HON. NYAMUPINGA: Thank you Mr. Speaker, my question is
directed to the Minister of Primary and Secondary Education, Hon. Dr. Dokora. They did well as a Ministry bringing in the feeding scheme programme and it assisted most children to go to school. I want to find out what measures they have as a ministry in terms of provision of sanitary wear to the - girl child, because girls are missing about three days a month, missing school because they do not have sanitary wear. We want to know that measures the ministry has put in place. In Kenya, girl children are given sanitary wear which they keep in their bags, I thank you.
*THE MINISTER OF PRIMARY AND SECONDARY
EDUCATION (HON. DR. DOKORA): Thank you Mr. Speaker Sir. I would like to thank Hon. Nyamupinga for raising such a pertinent question. It is true, our Ministry launched the School Feeding Scheme Programme. This shall continue - but we are also knowledgeable on the fact that what you mentioned on sanitary wear affects the girl-child. This was being addressed by the Non-Governmental Organisations, such as CAMFED, World Vision, until recently.
This year we have organised policy development programmes to raise awareness on the need for School Health Policy which we have put together with the Ministry of Health and Child Care. We are also carrying out consultations with the Ministry of Women’s Affairs, Gender and Community Development. We have reached an advanced stage and hope that in the near future we will be able to announce, in line with the policy that will assist the girl child in order that they do not miss out on any school days because of their menstrual cycles. We will inform you once we have reached that stage of a policy launch to inform you of our progress
HON. MUTSEYAMI: Thank you Mr. Speaker Sir. My question is directed to the Minister of Women’s Affairs, Gender and Community
Development. I would like to know from the Hon. Minister with regard to Government policy, bearing in mind that as a country, Zimbabwe, we have done so much internationally in terms of gender representation across the board, specifically to do with Parliament - in relation to Proportional Representation (PR), where we have put so much effort in terms of the girl child being represented in Parliament. They are doing something wonderful and new to the world.
What is the Government policy that you are working on to make sure that you put so much influence on political parties, to make sure there is ontinuity, as well capacity build for Members of Parliament, specifically to do with the PR in the forthcoming 2018 elections, so that we have that continuity and the empowerment of those who have been here so that they excel more. How are you doing it to influence political parties to make sure that, that spirit is maintained?
THE MINISTER OF WOMEN’S AFFAIRS, GENDER AND COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT (HON. CHIKWINYA): Thank
you Mr. Speaker. The question that has been asked by the Hon. Member comes at a time when that issue is on our agenda, considering the fact that we are moving towards 2018. In our Constitution, it is enshrined – fully, and not in factions that….
THE HON. SPEAKER: Hon. Minister, please address the Chair?
HON. CHIKWINYA: What we are doing is: firstly, we are going to make sure that we seek for an extension. What we have in our Constitution indicates that there is going to be tenure of 10 years. The tenure of 10 years where we have the set up that we have now, is not enough – [HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.] – We need another 10 years to ensure that at that time, women will be fully equipped to handle leadership positions. This is just a preparatory stage and we cannot be prepared in 10 years. We need another 10 years – [HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear.] –
As we move in the 20 years, we are also getting to Agenda 2063 with our SDGs, Agenda 2020. This is the time when we are also grooming the girl-child. We cannot groom a girl-child in 10 years. So, within the next 30 years, that is when we get to Agenda 2030, we would have groomed enough young women to take up positions in Parliament.
So, we are in the process of ensuring that in both political parties; we are working on young women and also working on young men to ensure that they realise the importance of promoting young women. In both parties, we have an exercise and I believe it is working as we are talking right now.
We also have a provision in the Constitution, Section 17 – 50/50, we still want it on board. From my own political party, we have already addressed the issue that we are taking the issue to Central Committee and to Politburo so that it is allowed at that level. I am also hoping that in MDC, women leaders in there are also addressing - [AN HON. MEMBER: MDC-T.] - MDC-T is also the same issue. So, if MDCs are addressing the same issue, we will move on with our 50/50 and we will still go on to request for another 10 years while we are grooming the girl child to take up positions. I thank you.
HON. MUTSEYAMI: Thank you Mr. Speaker Sir. Thank you
Hon. Minister. My supplementary question to the Hon. Minister is, what is it that you are doing as a Ministry to influence and to make sure that you conscientise other women across the political divide; those women who pull down other women who are in the PR. What is it that you are doing to educate them and to make sure that they appreciate the importance of this gender balance?
HON. CHIKWINYA: We need a very powerful outreach
programme, an outreach programme that will address exactly what you are talking about. This is one of our biggest setbacks as women. We have setbacks not by our male counterparts but also by other women and we need to go out there with a robust and very powerful programme to ensure that we talk about this, and ensure it is not just a question of men or women or a question where we both address this issue because we are partners in this programme. Men and women out there have to be conscientised about this. We need to just come up with a robust programme to ensure that we address this. Otherwise this is a problem that we should battle with as parties and as individuals.
HON. MLISWA: Yes, it is a given that ten years is there. What has the Ministry done in capacitating women especially those representing other women in Parliament before we get to extend another ten years?
HON. CHIKWINYA: Indeed, there are numerous programmes
that we are doing amongst ourselves and these are for both parties - also with our own partners, UNDP, UNFPA, UN Women ourselves and other partners out there. So much is happening. As I speak right now, in this House; we have got programmes that we are currently undertaking as female Members of Parliament who are currently here. I think we are doing so well in that area.
HON. MLISWA: Which specific programmes?
THE HON. SPEAKER: Order, order, order! Hon. Mliswa, the Standing Orders require that you be recognised. You do not just stand up and start talking.
HON. MLISWA: I am sorry Mr. Speaker.
THE HON. SPEAKER: Your apology is accepted.
*HON. MUNENGAMI: Hon. Minister Chikwinya, you
mentioned the 50-50 which is in our Constitution which you said you are trying to ensure that implementation takes place. If you look at where you are sitting, you are the only female seated on the Ministers’ bench and the rest are male. What are you doing to ensure that the 50-50 issue that you mentioned is maintained? We realise that in the Executive, there is no 50-50; we need to reduce the gap.
*HON. CHIKWINYA: If we are successful in the 50-50 provision, it does not only mean that it should be in Parliament only. It is looking at all leadership positions whether it be in the industries, embassies or any other sector. It will be legislation that will have been passed in this House. We will also stand up here and say that now that we have legislation on 50-50, it means that at the Executive level, it has to be the same. If it is at Parliament, it has to be the same too because it will be based on legislation. This legislation will be used as our defence.
HON. GONESE: On a matter of privilege Mr. Speaker…
THE HON. SPEAKER: We have had three supplementary
questions please.
HON. GONESE: It is a matter of privilege and I think it will address some of the concerns.
THE HON. SPEAKER: No.
HON. GONESE: A matter of privilege Mr. Speaker.
THE HON. SPEAKER: No. No.
HON. GONESE: It is a matter of privilege and I think it will address some of the concerns.
THE HON. SPEAKER: No. This is question time…
HON. GONESE: I know it is related to question time…
THE HON. SPEAKER: Order, when the Speaker is speaking. This is time for questions and not for making statements. I said you cannot ask the fourth supplementary. You cannot. Some other time you can do that.
Hon. Gonese approached the Chair.
HON. GONESE: Thank you very much Mr. Speaker Sir. In view of the interest that has been generated by these questions relating to gender balance. I am requesting the Minister to come up with a comprehensive Ministerial Statement to cover all these aspects and in particular the issue of women’s representation here in Parliament, outside Parliament and in Government agencies. All Hon. Members can then ask for clarification and I think that will address the issue that is of interest to the whole nation of Zimbabwe –[HON. MEMBERS: Hear,
hear.] -
THE HON. SPEAKER: Hon. Minister, are you agreeable to
that?
HON. CHIKWINYA: I think that is only fair because there are very diverse issues related to this matter. Some are constitutional and some are personal. Let us just talk about this and see whether we can come up with a solution to the problem together as Parliament.
HON. KHUPE: My question is directed to the Minister of Health and Child Care. Statistics show that in Africa, people discover that they have cancer when their cancers are on stages three and four. These are advanced stages such that very little can be done to serve those affected.
What is Government doing to make sure that there are screening facilities especially in terms of mobile clinics which can be deployed throughout the whole country so that people have got access to these mobile clinics as we all know that early detection of cancer saves lives. It is clear that cancer is prevalent these days and many people are dying from cancer because they only discover it when it is late. I know that I can bear testimony because when we went to Kenya, we saw how they were handling cancer issues with mobile clinics which are deployed to each and every province.
What are you doing to ensure that we put this in place as well?
THE MINISTER OF HEALTH AND CHILD CARE (HON.
SEN. DR. PARIRENYATWA): We are registering an average of 6
000 cases of cancer in this country every year. Of that 6 000, cancer of the cervix is number one for women and cancer of the breast is number two but for men, it is cancer of the prostate and Kaposi Sarcoma.
Overally, we are registering a lot of cancers that are also HIV related.
So, in terms of what we are doing, we have been able to look at HIV and to some extent; we have managed to contain the spread of HIV in terms of a lowering of prevalence and indeed, a lowering of incidents. So, we know that we have got structures that we have used for HIV which we call the National Aids Council, Provincial Action Plans, the DACs and the WACs and so on going down.
We have already now instructed the National Aids Council to incorporate cancer fight into the same structures so that you are able to go right down to the villages and are able to disseminate information the same way that we are doing with HIV. So, we have asked for a budget straight to the National Aids Council to incorporate other methods that can be used to disseminate information. A lot of our people come very late with cancer, extremely late and then they are in stage three and stage four. So, the best means of preventing cancer is actually to prevent cancer. How you do it, is to screen. Now, every district hospital has got what we call VIAC. Every woman who comes to our hospitals, we screen using Visual Inspection of the Cervix with acetic acid. We use that for early screening.
We also encourage our women to palpate their breasts every time, as often as they can, to see if there are any unusual lumps in their breasts. Often women tell us and I think this is not fair, but sometimes it is actually the men who say, what is this in your breasts, especially the husbands, but generally we ask that women palpate themselves regularly and often.
Also outside VIAC and outside the National Aids Council, we are now saying, let us vaccinate our young women for prevention of cancer of the cervix. So, we are now also on a programme of vaccination to vaccinate against the papillomavirus which causes cancer. So, we have started that project in Beitbridge and Marondera as pilot projects and those again, we are going to disseminate throughout the country. Thank you Hon. Speaker Sir.
HON. KHUPE: Thank you very much Hon. Minister for your response. Is the Minister considering purchasing mobile clinics because with mobile clinics, you can be assured that at least they will be deployed to each and every place, especially those remote places where they do not have clinics? The advantage of mobile clinics is that they do not just screen cancer. They will be checking HIV, high blood pressure and all other diseases. So, is the Ministry not considering the purchasing of mobile clinics because they will be able to reach all those places where we do not have clinics? I thank you.
HON. DR. PARIRENYATWA: I would like to thank the Hon. Member for putting that point very powerfully. Indeed, we already have mobile clinics. We do not have sufficient clinics and we do not want them to be siloed, to be just as you rightly say, only for cancer of the cervix, but we want them to be outreaches for all other preventable illnesses. We are also saying to ourselves that, instead of just having provincial and district hospitals, let us also now have health centres...
THE HON. SPEAKER: Order, order. This is a very important subject and we have lost some of our colleagues here, but you are not listening. Why? Any one of us here could be a candidate for that disease.
HON. DR. PARIRENYATWA: Indeed Hon. Speaker, anyone
can actually be a candidate. As I have said, women have got cancer of the breast and cervix; men have cancer of the prostate. Cancer of the prostate has killed a lot of men here in this country and again, it is because of late presentation. So, we also encourage men, if you may allow me to divert, to actually go and have themselves examined through the anus, anal examination, and the doctor will palpate and see if the prostate is enlarged.
So, we encourage all men, especially those above 40 years, to also go and have themselves screened, but I will take your proposition very seriously that can we use mobile clinics to be part and parcel of the fight against cancer. Thank you.
HON. MISIHAIRABWI-MUSHONGA: My supplementary
Hon. Minister is to do with the point that you raised that most of the cancer that we have is also linked to HIV. What are you doing for those that are being exposed, particularly if they are raped, in terms of getting Post-Exposure Prophylaxis or those that are actually living with discordant partners because what we are getting is that not much is being said? So, a women gets raped, automatically she stays another 48 hours before she actually goes in and somebody says to them, you can actually get PEP Or if she is living with a discordant partner and she has had unsafe sex no one is saying to her you can actually go and get PEP because this is linked to how many of those women then succumb to cancer.
THE HON. SPEAKER: Order. Hon. Member do not debate, ask a question. Thank you.
HON. DR. PARIRENYATWA: Thank you very much Mr.
Speaker Sir and I would like to thank Hon. Misihairabwi for that supplementary. It is true, in this country we are now emphasising not just prevention as primary prevention against HIV, but we are also saying let us promote Pre-Exposure Prophylaxis. Now with Pre- Exposure Prophylaxis what it means is that, those people who are at risk of getting HIV, mostly because of their profession, we are encouraging them to go onto Pre-Exposure Prophylaxis, which means we give them treatment or tables to prevent them from catching HIV should they come into contact with that. This we are actually encouraging very much in terms of our sex workers. So, we are saying to sex workers PreExposure Prophylaxis is available, especially for our women. So, when that happens, it also helps.
The second thing is, those who have been exposed, perhaps have been raped and you want to prevent them catching HIV, we encourage Post-Exposure Prophylaxis. They are available in the country. The centre of that availability is Wilkins Hospital, but we are saying, it is all disseminated to our central and district hospitals so that people can access them. So, if a woman is raped and we are not sure and she is not sure of the status of the man, which is mostly the case, we encourage they get the Post-Exposure Prophylaxis within 48 hours of being raped. The point that you are raising is that there is a lot or bureaucracy getting to that position and we have tried very hard through our own systems to try and lighten that burden so that people are not put into too much rigmarole before they can access that Post-Exposure Prophylaxis.
I must say it is not talked about very much and so our population do not know much about it and I think we need to have a very vigorous exercise to educate our people about Post-Exposure and Pre-Exposure Prophylaxis.
HON. T. KHUMALO: Thank you Mr. Speaker Sir. My
supplementary question to the Minister is, the cost of treating cancer is huge. Those that are on first and hopefully on second stage might go for $2 000 per session. Those that are beyond second, third and fourth, we are looking at $3 000 - $4 000 and no Zimbabwean woman can afford that. What is Government’s policy vis-a-vis the issue of Government meeting the cost of cancer treatment like you mentioned the issue of AIDS levy? Where is cancer coming in on the AIDS levy in terms of advocacy and treatment?
HON. DR. PARIRENYATWA: I would like to thank Hon.
Khumalo for that very important question. What has happened to us and I think the country needs to know this, that we have had problems in getting drugs generally in our institutions. There has been an acute shortage of drugs now and again, particularly some of the drugs like cancer, drugs for the mentally disturbed and drugs of anesthesia. We have had a shortage of that and we have lobbied each other in Government that, can something not be done about drugs in this country.
We discussed around a small levy of cellphones and I am so pleased that the Ministry of Finance agreed and announced in its Budget Statement that in fact there is going to be a health levy which has already started operating. This month we got $6 million towards that health levy and that money has been targeted particularly towards drugs. So, we are hoping that over the next few weeks and months, we should be able to satisfy ourselves that our central and provincial hospitals particularly, are well-equipped with drugs. That will also help us in looking at priority drugs and one of our priority drugs is cancer treatment.
We are so happy that this health levy has come by and we should be able to cascade that health levy towards cancer treatment. I think $6 million per month and if it continues at that rate, we really will win. At the present time, as you know Mr. Speaker, the NGOs and donors are the ones who are subsidising our drugs to the tune of 98%. Most of those drugs come to the clinics and that is why you find a lot of the clinics will have drugs but the provincial hospitals will not have drugs. So, this levy will help us now to stock the provincial and central hospitals and with that also, to be able to look at cancer treatment.
Thank you Mr. Speaker Sir.
HON. MANGAMI: My question is directed to the Minister of Primary and Secondary Education. It is a fact that in every district, there are children who have got special needs yet it is not in every district that we have schools for such people. What is Government’s policy regarding the provision of schools for special needs so that they are also catered for in their education?
THE MINISTER OF PRIMARY AND SECONDARY EDUCATION (HON. DR. DOKORA): I thank the Hon. Member for
raising the question. It is a given that our policy of education embraces the concept of inclusive education as opposed to institutionalisation. The examples we have at St Giles, Kapota or Henry Mare are examples of institutionalisation and there are 38 such institutions in the country at the moment. However, with inclusive education policy, you try as much as you can for those conditions that are amenable to inclusion to allow those children to remain within mainstream classrooms for purposes of their education.
What then becomes critical is the skills acquisition on the part of the teacher on how to handle an inclusive class when that obtains at a given school. Another layer that assists such inclusive education policy delivery is the setting up of technical units in the districts across the country. It is those districts that are now being or have been capacitated already in some cases to allow them to offer assistance to the teachers who are deployed in any given district. So, the Hon. Member should enquire at that local district schools inspector as to the location of a given school which plays the role of a technical assistance site. Thank you.
HON. MANGAMI: Hon. Speaker, I hear the Minister and I think the inclusiveness part of it, yes he has acknowledged that there are some hindrance and right now it is the language barrier, for example the deaf and dumb. I did not get it clear how such can be assisted through the technical unit which the Minister has alluded to. So, may I be appraised on how such issues to do with the deaf and dumb groups which require special needs, how can they be taken care of remembering that the schools are scattered and such children are found in different places.
HON. DR. DOKORA: I have already indicated that at each of our District Offices, there will be ready information as to the forms of conditions that particular district is capacitated to assist children in. We have in Matebeleland North a case in point at Fatima where precisely the form of disability, constraint or challenge that she makes reference to is taken care of because we have a teacher at the school who is capacitated to look after children of this nature. They are in a mainstream school and not isolated in the sense of being institutionalised, which was my first definition of the specialised schools where of course we acknowledge the tremendous effort that teachers have to make when they are perhaps in a class of one or two such learners. It is a much better situation to allow it to remain outside the school system or take the expensive route which has been the institutionalisation when resources perhaps do not quite permit. Thank you.
*HON. MASHAYAMOMBE: My question is directed to the
Minister of Transport and Infrastructural Development, Hon. Dr. Gumbo. Hon. Minister, what measures does the Government have in place to decongest Harare because there is a challenge in Zimbabwe in terms of congestion? As the Minister of Transport, we want to find out what measures you have in place.
THE MINISTER OF TRANSPORT AND
INFRASTRUCTURAL DEVELOPMENT (HON. DR. GUMBO)
Thank you Madam Speaker. I want to thank Hon. Mashayamombe for the question that he posed. I want to inform him and ask him to redirect his question to Hon. Kasukuwere, the Minister of Local Government. Anything that relates to urban councils is under his Ministry. I thank you – [HON. MEMERS: Inaudible interjections.] –
THE HON. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order, order. Can we have
order Hon. Members. Order Hon. Zindi. I do not think there is any need for a supplementary question because the Hon. Minister did not answer any question. When you want to ask, it will be a new question because the Hon. Minister did not answer it and he said, the question has to be referred to Hon. Kasukuwere. So there is no need for any supplementary question, unless you have a new question.
*HON. ZINDI: I will ask a new question.
THE HON. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you very much, but
not now.
HON. J. TSHUMA: Thank you very much Madam Speaker.
Good afternoon. My question is directed to the Hon. Minister of Tourism and Hospitality Industry. I wanted to find out, what their is the policy of local tourism in terms of licensing eating houses and shebeens. I say so because I come from a party where this is a very important part of the culture of Bulawayo. The late great Sydney Malunga died asking about this issue of when you are going to legalise shebeens. It is part of our lives, so people must understand that and respect it.
THE HON. DEPUTY SPEAKER: I want the question so that the Minister answers. You cannot answer yourself.
HON. J. TSHUMA: My question is, what is the Ministry’s policy towards legalising and licensing local eating houses and shebeens in our society so that they can operate legally and also create revenue for
Government? I thank you.
THE MINISTER OF TOURISM AND HOSPITALITY INDUSTRY (HON. ENG. MZEMBI): Madam Speaker, I want to
thank the Hon. Member for asking this question. First and foremost, for that kind of product to become legal, licensing of places that sell liquor, you need in excess of 12 to 13 licences, many of which fall outside my realm as Minister of Tourism. So to get to the point where we legalise the shebeens as he calls them, it will need the collective action of more than eight Government Ministries to get to that point. I would like to take it back to a Committee of Ministers to see how we can promote it as a concept around home hospitality. Sezvatinoita ndari kumusha, haina licence. Vanhu vanongofamba vachingoti ngomee, vanhu voenda vonomwa zvavo. We will find a way of bringing it back, nicely branded but with the collective effort of at least eight Ministries. That is the future going forward – [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] –
THE HON. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon. Chibaya, please!
*HON. MURAI: Thank you Madam Speaker. Good afternoon.
My question is directed to the Hon. Minister Sydney Sekeramayi, the Minister of Defence. Yesterday, we witnessed violence between the ZRP and the Defence. Their duty is to maintain peace and security in the nation. We are no longer sure whether we are safe or not. What measures have you taken in place to address the misunderstandings between the two groups to guarantee our security? I thank you.
*THE MINISTER OF DEFENCE (HON. DR.
SEKERAMAYI): Madam Speaker, I want to thank the Hon. Member
for raising this question. I will address it after I have reports from the ZRP and from the Army concerning what exactly took place. I promise you that on Wednesday, I will have a response pertaining to that issue and also the measures that are being taken to ensure that there is no violence or misunderstandings amongst the security forces. I thank you
– [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] –
*THE HON. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order, order Hon. Members. Order Hon. Mupfumi. If there is someone calling for a supplementary question, it is the duty of the Chair to recognise him and not you. The
Minister of Defence said that he will bring a response, so I do not know where the supplementary question arises from when he has not responded to anything. Hon. Members please, we have others who want to pose questions. Let us wait for the Minister to bring the answer and if your questions are not addressed, then you can raise supplementary questions. Thank you – [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] – I am saying that, let us go to other questions whilst we wait for the
Minister’s response.
*HON. CHAMISA: On a point of privilege. Madam Speaker, it is permissible in the Standing Orders. Standing Order Number 68 (d) permits us to take it up with the Minister who is here. We are privileged to have Hon. Mphoko. We have noticed that it is important for us to have a response from his Office. We also realised that the First Lady of the nation has said that within Government – I believe the Vice President, Hon. Mnangagwa has just walked in, so we have both Vice Presidents in this House in order to respond to the question.
THE HON. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon. Chamisa, in my
understanding, we were talking of the issue of the violence that erupted between the police and the army. Once it has been raised, Madam Speaker, it becomes more pertinent than all the other questions that have been raised.
Madam Speaker, you need to refer to the Standing Orders.
THE HON. DEPUTY SPEAKER: I will give you the chance to
do that once we are done with these questions.
*HON. ADV. CHAMISA: But Madam Speaker, the law does not
permit that. My point of privilege is directed to the Vice Presidents, either Hon. Mphoko or Hon. Mnangagwa. The privilege is that we witnessed the First Lady saying a lot that if it was possible, the President should appoint someone to lead the nation. So we want to find out from the way the Government is set up, is there stability in the Government or there is instability, because that reflects that there is instability in terms of governance, because of the speeches that are given by the leaders of the nation. Can they give us assurance that there is stability within the
Government?
THE VICE PRESENT AND MINISTER OF NATIONAL
HEALING, PEACE AND RECONCILIATION (HON. MPHOKO):
Thank you Hon. Speaker, I am not privileged because the bulk of his questions were in Shona. I want to handover to my colleague, thank you. – [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] -
THE VICE PRESIDENT AND MINISTER OF JUSTICE, LEGAL AND PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (HON. E. D.
MNANGAGWA): Madam Speaker, I was not listening, I was reading. I am not sure I heard the question. So may the Hon. Member repeat the question?
HON. ADV. CHAMISA: Thank you Vice President, let me
repeat. While you are standing?
HON. E.D. MNANGAGWA: Yes.
- [Laughter.] -
HON. ADV. CHAMISA: I really appreciate that. Hon. Vice
President, my question to you is that we have seen and heard in the full glare of all the people of Zimbabwe, statements from the First Lady to the effect that there has to be an appointment or direction as to the successor, whether yourself or some other, - [HON. MEMBERS:
Inaudible interjections.] – It was not clear but yes, it was public.
Our question, which is a very important question, is there stability within Government and is there something in Government that has necessitated those fundamental pronouncements by the First Lady?
Particularly when one has regard to what was also said by the First Lady - to say that there is bias in farvour of some Ministers in terms of others ahead of others. - [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] – Is everything well in Government or the Government is facing some serious problems?
HON. E.D. MNANGAGWA: I thank you Hon. Member.
Madam Speaker, the first point is where was the First Lady speaking? - [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] – Which political party was it? - [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] – We have no problem of recruiting more members into ZANU PF.
- [Laughter.] –
We were at a rally of a particular party, ZANU PF, discussing issues of that political party. You have referred to Government, I am not aware of any statement relating to Government at all. - [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] – With regard to the issue of some names or some people not appearing, it is a question of being subjective whether that is true or not. You need to look at particular cases and say, in this particular case it should not have been on page two but on page one or not page eight but on page two. Then we deal with the particular cases as they arise. I thank you. - [HON. MEMBERS:
Inaudible interjections.] – [HON. MARIDADI: Inaudible interjection.] –
THE HON. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order, order I think the
question was clear and the answer was also clear that in this august House, we cannot debate on issues of a particular party. May we please proceed with the business of this august House, Hon. Mupfumi! - [HON.
MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] –
*HON. MUPFUMI: Thank you Madam Speaker…
HON. MARIDADI: Madam Speaker, honestly allow me to pose
a supplementary question, because this issue was on our national television. What happens in ZANU PF affects us because ZANU PF is the ruling party - [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] –
THE HON. DEPUTY SPEAKER: What is the supplementary
question?
HON. MARIDADI: The supplementary question is, the First
Lady is the wife of - [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] – THE HON. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order, order Hon. Members.
HON. MARIDADI: The First Lady is wife to our President and Head of State and what she says goes, because she is a person who is very important. What was said at a ZANU PF rally has a bearing on all of us, because ZANU PF is the ruling party…
THE HON. DEPUTY SPEAKER: May you please get to the
point.
HON. MARIDADI: I want to say that we need a comment from one of the Vice Presidents on what the First Lady said, especially when it related to a senior Government employee because she summoned a senior Government employee and censored him in public. That is public knowledge, and it is in the public domain, hence cannot be swept under the carpet. We need to have a response on that.
Hon. Vice President, kindly respond to that. I am happy that there is you, Leader of the House who is also Vice President and there is also Hon. Vice President Mphoko and there are senior Ministers. You can help each other to answer this question, it is very important. Thank you.
- [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] –
THE VICE PRESIDENT AND MINISTER OF JUSTICE,
LEGAL AND PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (HON. E. D.
MNANGAGWA): Madam Speaker, I am grateful for the supplementary posed by the Hon. Member. A matter arose at a public meeting and if there are any answers to be given, they must be given at the same forum.
In a democracy, like the democracy we have, such meetings are covered for the benefit of the nation. When we give that report at that platform which is appropriate, again the nation will be informed. I thank you.
HON. GONESE: Madam Speaker, I have a matter of privilege arising from – [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] -
THE HON. DEPPUTY SPEAKER: Order, order Hon. Gonese. I think you know the procedures of the House. – [HON. MLISWA: Inaudible interjection.] - Order Hon. Mliswa! Order Hon. Members, if I call for order, I mean everybody.
HON. GONESE: Yes, I have a point of order.
THE HON. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon. Gonese, I think you
understand the procedures, you cannot just stand up and start talking. I did not recognise you – [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] - How can you start talking before I recognise you? – [HON. MEMBERS:
Inaudible interjections.] - Order, order may we have order in the
House? Hon. Gonese order! – [HON. GONESE: I am raising a point of order!] - Order, order may we have order please.
HON. GONESE [speaking]:On a point of order Madam Speaker.
THE HON. MADAM SPEAKER: Can we have order. Order
Hon. Members. Order please, order in the House.
Questions Without Notice were interrupted by THE HON.
DEPUTY SPEAKER in terms of Standing Order No. 64.
HON. MARIDADI: I propose that time for Questions Without
Notice be extended – [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] –
HON. MARIDADI: Madam Speaker, in any case the time has
lapsed but the question had been posed already.
THE HON. SPEAKER: No, it was answered.
HON. MARIDADI: No, it was not. The VPs are seized with that question Madam Speaker.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS WITH NOTICE
The Hon. Deputy Speaker moved that question no. 1 be answered.
HON. MARIDADI: No that question must be answered Madam
Speaker. Hon. Majome please hold it until this question has been answered. On a point of order Madam Speaker – [HON. MEMBERS:
Inaudible interjections.] – Madam Speaker
THE HON. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon. Maridadi I did not
recognise you.
HON. MARIDADI: You gave me the floor and I am on the floor
already.
THE HON. DEPUTY SPEAKER: I did not recognise you. Hon.
Maridadi please
HON. MARIDADI: Hon. Madam Speaker please, this one is
important.
THE HON. DEPUTY SPEAKER: I did not recognise you, you
cannot just start talking.
HON. MARIDADI: Both factions are here, both factions are represented in the House.
THE HON. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon. Maridadi please, take
your seat.
HON. MARIDADI: Both factions LACOSTE and G40 are represented in the House Madam Speaker – [HON. MEMBERS:
Inaudible interjections.] –
HON. GONESE: On a matter of privilege Madam Speaker.
THE HON. MADAM SPEAKER: No, no.
HON. GONESE: You cannot ignore a matter of privilege which I have risen on. I am standing up on a matter of privilege in terms of Standing Order No. 68(d).
The Deputy Speaker having moved on to question No. 2.
HON. GONESE: But this is not procedural Madam Speaker. Why are you even ignoring question No. 1? Why are you leaving question No. 1?
HON. MAJOME: On a point order Madam Speaker.
THE HON. DEPUTY SPEAKER: What is your point of order? I
was calling you several times, you were not responding why?
HON. MAJOME: Because you were having an altercation with Hon. Maridadi.
THE HON. DEPUTY SPEAKER: I am presiding over this
House, not anybody else.
HON. MAJOME: I respect that Hon. Speaker but you were actually having an alteration with Hon. Maridadi and Hon. Gonese. Hon. Madam Speaker I have a right to be heard. On a point of order Hon. Madam Speaker.
THE HON. DEPUTY SPEAKER: You can come here and talk
to me.
ADOPTION OF THE NON- PAYMENT SYSTEM OF ALL NON-
CURABLE DISEASES AND HIV/AIDS TO STAGES OF
DIAGNOSIS AND TREATMENT
- HON. D. TSHUMA asked the Minister of Health and Child
Care to consider adopting the systems of non-payment of all non-curable diseases and HIV/AIDS to the stages of diagnosis and treatment instead of picking out diabetes, in view of the debilitating impact that these diseases have on human capital.
THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH AND CHILD CARE
(HON. DR. MUSIIWA): Thank you Hon. Tshuma for that suggestion. It is indeed one that we are considering, in light of the current disease burden. Currently HIV testing and treatment are free. Government through the AIDS levy and the Global Fund to fight HIV, Malaria and T.B, provided that funds for such treatment are there. However, we still have gaps in the funding of other non-communicable disease such as diabetes. We are targeting the supply of more affordable anti-diabetic drugs under the new health levy.
REPLACEMENT OF THE GAS CHROMATOGRAPH MACHINE
- HON. MAJOME asked the Minister of Health and Child Care
to inform the House when the Ministry would replace the one and only Gas Chromatograph machine which packed up in 2004, in view of the fact that this is affecting forensic pathology in public hospitals.
THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH AND CHILD CARE
(HON. DR. MUSIIWA): Thank you Hon. Majome for raising that question. Currently we have one Gas Chromatography machine that is installed at the Government Analyst laboratory. However, this one was purchased by partners and it is mainly being used by the food sciences. Because of this reason, the procurement of reagents for the toxicology tests that are needed for forensic pathology examinations is a problem.
We have as a Ministry; under the department of Pathology - on order one Gas Chromatography for the exclusive use of the forensics. I thank you.
HON. MAJOME: Hon. Madam Speaker, I thank the Hon.
Minister for his response but I would like the Minister to clarify what then Government is doing for the needs of forensic pathology when as he said the only Gas Chromatography machine is being used for food and nutrition and he did say they are buying one. In the meantime what is happening to forensic pathology, what is the Government doing with samples that require to be tested by a Gas Chromatography machine and also have they budgeted and when are they going to buy this one for forensic pathology?
HON. DR. MUSIIWA: Thank you Hon. Majome for raising this question. As I have said before, we have one Gas Chromatography machine that is installed with the analyst laboratory, this basically is a backup - it is a backup for the Government analyst laboratory. So, this is the one that the forensic pathologists are using. However, because it does not belong to the pathology department, we have put on order a machine specifically for the pathology department, it is on order. I thank you.
HON. MAJOME: I asked the Minister to indicate when it is that he expects that a Gas Chromatography that he had ordered will be on site and available for forensic pathology, it is not enough for him to just say it is on order, but when is it going to be available?
HON. DR. MUSIIWA: Thank you Hon. Speaker, as I have said it has gone through tender and a purchase order has already been given. I would want to assure the House within the next month or so, we should have the machine installed with the laboratory.
MEASURES ON EMERGENCY MEDICAL TREATMENT
- HON. MAJOME asked the Minister of Health and Child Care, the measures Government has put in place to ensure that no one is denied emergency medical treatment at any health institution as demanded by Section 29 (2) and 76 (3) of the Constitution.
On a point of privilege Madam Speaker, this is the third that I am asking this question. I put this question on the Order Paper because the Hon. Minister of Health and Child Care previously prevaricated over this question and actually said untruths about his answer. The reason I am raising a point of privilege is to remind the Hon. Minister that he has a duty in terms of the Privileges and Immunities Act of Parliament to tell the truth. If he does not have the answer, he should indicate because it is an issue that I am going to raise around the privileges and immunities because he has not told the truth. He has prevaricated before. I hope that he will answer my question this time honestly and seriously.
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon. Majome, are you saying the
Minister is not telling the truth in this House?
HON. MAJOME: Previously, he did not. I actually intended to raise a motion on privilege about that. So, I am asking the question again now.
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: I hope the Minister is going to give
the truth of the matter.
THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH AND CHILD CARE
(HON. DR. MUSIIWA): Thank you Hon. Speaker. I want to thank Hon. Majome for this question. I want to believe we are on the same wave length. I want to assure this House that emergency medical treatment is a right enshrined in this country’s Constitution. As such, all Government medical institutions are obligated to provide emergency medical treatment. The Heads of such institutions are personally obligated to make sure they allow or ensure this right is given to all the patients in need.
It also cascades to private health institutions. It is an obligation that must be given and it is given under the Constitution. As I have said before, if there are specific instances where this regulation is not being observed, it will be important to bring it to our attention so that we could take stern disciplinary measures. I thank you.
HON. MAJOME: Madam Speaker, I hope the Hon. Minister would answer my question. May be it is actually a point of order. My question is not about whether people can get treatment. It is a very specific question. The question is what measures has the Government taken to ensure that no one is denied emergency medical care at any health institution in accordance with the new provisions in the Constitution; that is Section 29 (2), it says that the State shall put in place measures to ensure that, that is done, as well as Section 76 (3), which says that everyone has a right not to be denied emergency medical treatment from any institution.
These are new provisions in the Constitution that came into effect in 2013. It requires the Government to do certain things to ensure that they work. So, what are those measures that you have put in place? The reason I am asking is because you are answering about Government health institutions but what have you done so that for example, a private hospital – if a person is run-over, say outside Avenues Clinic there, they will not be treated if they do not have medical aid or if they cannot pay.
The Constitution requires that you put in place measures to ensure that the person is treated and possibly some financial arrangements are made. That is the question. What has Government done to ensure that those measures – what measures may be financial or administrative or even medical aid. What measures have you put in place to ensure that no one is send away? Nobody dies because they cannot pay at that point.
HON. DR. MUSIIWA: Thank you Hon. Speaker. Thank you Hon. Majome for that clarification. As to the financial commitment, there is no financial commitment to make sure that happens. However, as a Government, we have made the necessary administrative arrangements. We are the regulating authority in this country. Circulars to this effect have been given out to all medical institutions together with all relevant Medical Associations. It is an obligation and everyone is in agreement, the emergency treatment will be given. Thank you.
HON. MAJOME: When were those circulars issued to both public and private health institutions to ensure that anyone who requires emergency medical treatment meets with the relevant administration? Have you informed the public that if you have an accident or heart attack, you can go to any hospital because the Government has given circulars and you would not die because you do not have the money at that moment.
HON. DR. MUSIIWA: This was done some time last year. My office did that. I am responsible for medical regulation. So, I personally made sure that this regulation has gone out. You could check with all
Medical Associations. It is a requirement of the law.
HON. MAJOME: On a point of order Madam Speaker. I took the trouble- this is the third time I am asking this question and I have taken the trouble to put the question on notice. For the Hon. Minister to say some time last year – surely with due respect, he has an obligation to answer the question precisely. It is a question on notice. He should have come with an answer that says these are the measures that we have done. I would really like to know because I represent people who have been turned away from institutions. This is a life and death matter. People are dying and for him to say some time last year, for a question on notice, I am sorry Madam Speaker, I believe it is disrespectful of Parliament.
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon. Minister, I think you hear what the Hon. Member is saying that she needs specific dates on what you are doing, not general answers.
HON. DR. MUSIIWA: Thank you Hon. Speaker. I would like to clarify further. What the Hon. Member has simply said now was in supplementary to the question. She did not specifically ask for the circular. We could have easily provided the circular under which this happened. In any case, the essence of the question was whether in this country emergency treatment is given. This is the assurance I have given…
HON. MAJOME: On a point of order. That is not the question…
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order, you wait for the Minister to finish. Can you finish your response Hon. Minister?
The Hon. Deputy Minister of Health and Child Care indicated that he had finished with his response.
Hon. Masuku having indicated that questions 9 and 10 have been dealt with during the previous sitting; the questions were not responded
POSITION REGARDING MR. TOBAIWA MUDEDE
- MAJOME asked the Minister of Home Affairs to notify the House when the Registrar–General of Zimbabwe, Mr. Tobaiwa
Mudede was born and if he is above the age of 65years, why has he not retired from the Civil Service.
THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS (HON.
MGUNI): Thank you very much Hon. Member for your question.
However, this issue lies in the hands of the Public Service Commission. Those are the people who are running the ages, retrenchment and everything to do with employment.
ZANU PF PARTY CAUCUS ADDRESS BY MR. TOBAIWA
MUDEDE
- HON MAJOME asked the Minister of Home Affairs;
- To confirm whether or not the Registrar General, Mr Tobaiwa
Mudede addressed a ZANU PF party caucus at the ZANU PF
Headquarters on 10 May 2017, urging the party to amend the
Constitution to ban dual citizenship despite Section 196 (3) (a) requiring Public Officers to be objective and impartial.
- To inform the House if the Minister and the Registrar General have any respect for the Constitution.
- To inform the House if the Registrar-General will address the
MDC– T. and MDC about the constitutional amendment on dual citizenship.
THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS (HON.
MGUNI): Yes, the Registrar-General did address ZANU PF party at a caucus. The procedure is that the party writes to the Minister who is invited then the Minister has his prerogative to see that he invites the Registrar-General to explain to them. If they intend to do the same, they have to write to the Minister who will see who to go with so that he gives proper explanations.
HON. MAJOME: The Hon. Minister has not finished answering.
He only answered the first part of the question on whether or not the Registrar-General addressed a ZANU-PF party caucus or not and that all parties are welcome to be inviting him. He did not answer part (b) and (c). He did not answer on the issue of dual citizenship. Is he confirming that the purpose of his address was to ban dual citizenship.
THE HON. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon. Minister, the question
has three parts.
HON. MGUNI: Thank you Madam Speaker. There is another question which says; does the Minister and the Registrar General have any respect for the Constitution – yes they have. The two officials have always and will continue to uphold the Constitution of Zimbabwe.
The other one is that; will the Registrar-General be addressing the MDC–T and MDC about the constitutional amendment on dual citizenship –I attended to that one. Which is the other one Madam
Speaker? Can the Hon. Member be allowed to pose another question?
THE HON. DEPUTY SPEAKER: I think you should answer those which you have answers for because your answers should be written somewhere.
HON. MGUNI: Yes, they are in the order I have answered.
HON. MAJOME: Madam Speaker, as a point of privilege, has the Hon. Minister prepared the answers because in my understanding; all ministries have Parliamentary liaison officers who must assist them to answer. Does he have ....
THE HON. DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, no, no. Everyone knows
that. All the Ministries know that they have liaison officers pertaining to what is happening in Parliament. I just want to know from the Minister which part of the question he has answered so that he goes to that one which he has not answered.
HON. MAJOME: The reason why I am concerned is that I took trouble to prepare this question but the Hon. Minister does not look like he is prepared to answer the question. Did he prepare for it because he skipped aspects in part (a) of the question?
HON. MGUNI: I answered the first question correctly by saying the issue of the age of the Registrar-General of Zimbabwe is in the hands of the employer who is the Public Service Commission. I then went to the second question which was saying confirm whether the RegistrarGeneral, Mr. Tobaiwa Mudede addressed the ZANU PF party at a caucus. I answered and said yes, the Registrar-General did address ZANU PF party caucus at ZANU PF Headquarters. However, this was a request from ZANU PF that the Minister should come and explain. The Minister then took the Registrar-General with him to explain more and even better so that the party got more details.
Does the Minister and the Registrar-General have ....
THE HON. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order, Hon. Minister. I am surprised that the Minister is answering questions but Hon. Majome is discussing something with another Hon. Member. This is where now she will not get what the Minister has answered.
HON. MGUNI: We come to the third question where it says; does the Minister and the Registrar General have any respect for the Constitution – that one I answered too. I was ready to go to the fourth one; will the Registrar-General be addressing the MDC and MDC-T about the constitutional amendment on dual citizenship; I said they can do that through an application. They must invite the Minister who will make his decision whether he is taking the Registrar-General with him to address them.
I think I answered all of them.
HON. MAJOME: On a point of clarification, that is why I asked if he can confirm whether or not the Registrar General, Mr Tobaiwa Mudede addressed a ZANU PF party caucus at the ZANU PF
Headquarters on – [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] –
THE HON. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon. Members, if you make
noise, we will not be able to follow up.
HON. MAJOME: On 10 May 2017, urging the party “to amend
the Constitution to ban dual citizenship”, so the Hon. Minister has said that yes, he did. I am seeking clarification that is he confirming because it is a composite question.
THE HON. DEPUTY SPEAKER: He did understand, yes.
HON. MAJOME: I understand that it is yes for everything. Yes, that the Registrar-General went to the caucus to urge ZANU PF members to amend the Constitution because he said yes.
THE HON. DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, what I heard from the Minister is; the Registrar-General attended the ZANU PF caucus when he was invited and accompanied the Minister of Home Affairs who had been invited by the caucus to explain what they wanted to know. This is what I heard from the Minister.
HON. MAJOME: Madam Speaker, I think we are now
contradicting ourselves. Initially, the Hon. Minister said that the
Registrar-General was invited by ZANU PF. Now what the Hon. Madam Speaker is saying is a different thing that he was invited by the Minister. It is now very confusing.
THE HON. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Someone has helped me to understand you. Hon. Minister, the Hon. Member needs to understand whether the Registrar-General urged the ZANU PF party to amend the Constitution to ban dual citizenship. His attending you said yes. What about the part I have just highlighted? I think this is where the problem
is.
HON. MGUNI: The Registrar-General did not urge the ZANU PF to amend the Constitution to ban dual citizenship but was explaining to the caucus pertaining the questions that the members wanted to understand especially related to the elections.
HON. MAJOME: Hon. Madam Speaker, this is the RegistrarGeneral of the Republic of Zimbabwe who occupies a very sensitive office in terms of the database of the citizens and so on. I wonder if the Hon. Minister believes that it is good governance to allow a civil servant of such critical stature to attend a political party caucus. Does that augur well for good governance and also the image of the Government itself and for his functions?
THE HON. DEPUTY SPEAKER: According to what the
Minister was saying, Mr. Mudede accompanied the Minister to help the Minister in answering what he thought he could not on his own. So, I heard him saying, if also the other parties need the Minister at their caucuses, they can invite him and if the Minister feels he needs the Registrar General to accompany him, he can do the same. This is what I heard.
HON. MAJOME: My question was, is it according to good governance? – [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.]- I have a right to ask, Hon. Madam Speaker. My question is, is it good practice - yes, but does that augur well for good governance and for the image of the Government in terms of – [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible
interjections.]- It is a fundamental point.
THE HON. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Can you please put on your
microphone so that the Minister hears what you are saying.
HON. MAJOME: My question, Hon. Madam Speaker is, is the Hon. Minister of the opinion that this practice of allowing such a key Government official who holds the data base of all the citizens, to attend a party caucus even if it is another one - is the Minister convinced that such a practice is conducive for good governance and for the image of the Government, particularly the requirements in Chapter 9 for principles of public administration leadership, to show the highest levels of efficiency and prudence. Is he convinced that, that is the right thing to do?
THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS (HON.
MGUNI): Thank you Madam Speaker. Although that is not a policy question, but as a democratic country, where we need transparency, clarification and accountability, the Minister may not be a technocrat or know what people want to know about birth registration, but I have the right to carry my advisor who will help me even in the Portfolio Committee of Parliament here. I can do that even in their party. They must write to me as a Minister and I will decide who I will go with.
Thank you Madam Speaker.
SIGN LANGUAGE FOR THE POLICE
- MAJOME asked the Minister of Home Affairs to inform the House on what steps the Ministry has taken to ensure that police at their stations, are taught sign language in order to assist the deaf.
THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS (HON.
MGUNI): Thank you Madam Speaker. The recently graduated police force of 597, the training has now changed. It now extends to one year instead of six months. In those additional six months, three months is language; all 16 including sign language. We are intending to withdraw some of the officers, especially those dealing with the public to come and do their sign language so that it is done fairly on the ground. I thank you Madam Speaker.
POLICY ON ISSUANCE OF BIRTH RECORDS
- MASUKU asked the Minister of Home Affairs to explain the policy regarding the issuance of birth records to mothers delivering at Government hospitals considering that some do not get the birth records due to failure to settle their hospital bills.
THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS (HON.
MGUNI): It is illegal for any hospital authority to withhold the
issuance of birth confirmation records to the public. These birth confirmation records are issued to hospitals by the Registrar General’s department at no cost to them. Hospital authorities are in turn compelled to issue them to the public at no cost as well.
These documents cannot be used as a weapon to settle any outstanding bills by mothers who have given birth because they are going through the labour process. This has been brought to the attention of the hospital authority. We wrote a circular to them. I thank you.
RADIO AND TELEVISION LICENCE FEES
- HON. MASUKU asked the Minister of Information, Media and Broadcasting Services to:-
- Explain why radio and television licences are so high compared to other regional trends;
- State the method used by the national television to check whether the content resonates with the public.
THE MINISTER OF INFORMATION, MEDIA AND
BROADCASTING SERVICES (HON. DR. MUSHOHWE): Madam
Speaker, I wish to recognise and thank Hon. Masuku who has asked me to explain why radio and television licenses are so high compared to other regional trends.
Madam Speaker, television and radio licences are set by the
Government of Zimbabwe for the national broadcaster through Statutory Instruments as gazetted from time to time. The level of the fees is a direct or indirect function of many factors that are both of economic and broadcasting nature.
Broadcasting transmission factors, analogue versus digital transmission
Whether the national broadcasting grid is digitalised or analogue, it is a fact that digital frequency is cheaper to run than analogue frequency as digital frequency spectrum brings about what is called the digital dividend which brings about economies of scale and scope which also brings down costs, thus supporting licencing fees.
One needs more frequency spectrum to run an analogue terrestrial television broadcasting which is more expensive than digital transmission. Further, Hon. Speaker, maintenance costs of an analogue transmission system are higher than digital transmission.
Economic factors
In coming up with the licence fees, economic factors such as prices charged on substitutes like as newspaper which currently charge US$1 per copy per day translating to US$365 per year were also considered. The current annual television and radio licence fees are as follows: a home television costs US$50 per annum, a business television costs US$100 per annum, home radio US$20 per annum, personal car radio costs US$30 per annum, business car radio costs US$80 per annum and business office radio costs US$50 per annum.
If these fees are compared with what local print media substitutes are being paid for per annum. The fees are very reasonable given that you need about $365 for delivery of daily newspapers per annum.
The general cost of production is also taken into consideration. The broadcasting industry remains a developing industry in Zimbabwe. As compared to other countries, the cost of production is indeed quite high in Zimbabwe. This is coupled with the fact that broadcasting equipment is imported into the country, which increases the cost of production. Most countries in the region receive a grant from the government which assists in meeting production costs, while ZBC does not get such a grant.
This means that the license fees have to cater for the production costs.
However, the rates are on the high side as compared to regional rates with SABC of South Africa, for example charging about $25;
Zambian Broadcasting Services charges $18 per annum and Botswana
$15 per annum. It must be noted that all these nations are ahead of Zimbabwe in as far as digitalisation is concerned, hence lower cost of transmission as compared to the one in Zimbabwe where maintenance costs for analogue system are exorbitant and as indicated, ZBC does not receive any subsidy as some regional broadcasters do.
It is envisaged that after digitalisation, licence fees will go down remarkably with the coming in of the digital dividends whereby more players will be involved. More-so, pay per view business model will also ensure that licence fees are down as is characteristic of many fully digitalised countries.
Mr. Speaker Sir, Hon. Masuku also asked my Ministry to state the method used by the national television to check whether the content resonates with the public. Mr. Speaker Sir, the national broadcaster uses a number of methods to check if the public likes and enjoys the programming that is broadcast. These are:
Firstly, audience research; the national broadcaster has commissioned an audience research company to carry out a survey to find out viewership trends with regard to programmes they enjoy most, programmes they would want to see, viewership times and quality of production. The results of that survey are used to come up with programmes and also inform the national broadcaster on the times to schedule such programmes so that it resonates with public preferences.
At the moment Mr. Speaker Sir, the national broadcaster is in the process of embarking on yet another survey.
On feedback platforms, which is another form of inquiry, the national broadcaster has a number of feedback platforms which help in assessing and positioning programmes versus public response. These include emails, social media platforms such as Whatsapp, Twitter, Facebook and others. Such platforms are availed to every programme while the normal telephone calls are also used to get viewers’ responses to programmes.
Mr. Speaker Sir, we also have what we call road shows and outreach programmes. The national broadcaster is employing road shows and outreach programmes for both television and radio as a platform to communicate with and get feedback from viewers and listeners alike. Such road shows and I am sure members of this august House know how popular they are, have proved to be quite popular and useful platforms for the national broadcaster to understand and appreciate the wishes of the public.
They also have complaint registers. This register captures any form of complaints or compliments brought to the national register using any form of communication or directly, as some people may feel obliged to come and raise their complaints.
They have also instituted what are called Listeners’ Clubs. The national broadcaster, especially for radio has activated Listeners’ Clubs around the country where listeners communicate regularly with the national broadcaster. This gives prompt feedback, which helps the broadcaster in its programming decisions.
Media reviews and articles are another method of gauging viewers’ preferences. The national broadcaster also pays attention to articles in the media and to this extent Mr. Speaker Sir, such articles based on personal opinion or public driven articles are important in helping the national broadcaster understand the thinking of the public with regards to programming. I would want once again to thank the Hon. Member.
Thank you Mr. Speaker Sir.
HON. MASUKU: My supplementary question is - what is the
public response in terms of paying the licence fees?
HON. DR. MUSHOHWE: The Hon. Member is part of the public
and he has part of the answer. I think he is just asking for the benefit of other Members of Parliament. Those who have understood the rationale behind these fees do understand and sympathies with ZBC. As I have said, ZBC is still operating by and large on analogue which is an antiquated system and is very costly. Nevertheless, ZBC has an obligation to this nation to make sure that they continue to receive radio and television broadcast. So, they do understand. Yes, we could have a few people who may not be familiar with the reasons behind the costs that are given, but this is why I am thanking because as you have raised this issue, I am telling the public what the reasons are behind these fees. So, I want to thank you once again for raising this one for the public. I thank you.
HON. MAJOME: I want to ask the Hon. Minister as follow up to the issue on the content of the national public broadcaster or ZBC resonating with the public. Why does ZBC bring content that is biased in favour of the ZANU PF political party in terms of the editorial policy as well as coverage and the issues concerned? Sometimes the national broadcaster even acts as a public address system to announce ZANU PF party caucuses and meetings. Why does it do so if as you say Hon. Minister, the content resonates with the public? There are members of the public who are not from ZANU PF who pay for these things, why
does it do that.
HON. DR. MUSHOHWE: Thank you very much. I want to thank the Member for that politically motivated question. The ZBC is a public and national broadcast and it is available for anybody and everyone in this country or beyond. If ZANUF PF has more programmes than other political parties that ZBC covers, it is not the problem of ZBC. Let those political parties go out there and ask ZBC to cover them and see ZBC refuse, so let me know. If you do not have programmes and the ZBC does not know that there is a programme that is taking place, it is not their problem, it they do, they cover. We have seen other political parties ....
HON. MUNENGAMI: On a point of order.
THE TEMPORARY SPEAKER: Order. You can raise that one
as a supplementary question.
*HON. MUNENGAMI: The Minister should tell us the truth and not tell lies to this House because the ZBC gives us false information at times, so the Minister should be honest in this House.
THE TEMPORARY SPEAKER: I am not taking anymore-
supplementary questions.
WRITTEN SUBMISSIONS TO QUESTIONS WITH NOTICE
MEASURES TO HELP PEOPLE LIVING WITH DISABILITIES TO
HAVE ACCESS TO INFORMATION ON HIV VOLUNTARY
TESTING, TREATMENT AND CONDOM USE
- HON. KWARAMBA asked the Minister of Health and Child
Care to inform the House of the measures that Government has put in place to ensure that people living with disabilities have access to relevant information in pictorial and Braille formats as a way of disseminating information on HIV voluntary testing, treatment and condom use, in view of the fact that these people are usually left out.
THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH AND CHILD CARE
(HON. DR. MUSIIWA): Madam Speaker I thank the Hon. Member for the question and respond as follows:-
- A sign language dictionary focussing on HIV and reproductive health was development in partnership with Disability HIV and AIDS Trust (DHAT) and other such partners. Health service providers and community representatives were trained on the use of HIV, STIs, TB and reproductive health sign language. More resources need to be mobilised for such initiatives to be rolled out to scale.
- In response to the need by the visually impaired to access information on condom use, condom instructions were put in Braille, in partnership with UNFPA - with follow up sensitization meetings on this intervention targeting persons with disability in the communities. With more resources, this intervention could be done to scale.
- The Ministry in collaboration with partners (DHAT, Southern African AIDS Trust (SAT) has been training health care workers in disability responsive service delivery. To date, this programme has reached out to representatives from 35 districts across all provinces, all provincial hospitals, and all central hospitals. The intention is to continue the trainings until all our facilities have the capacity to provide equitable services to PWDs.
- Our plans include trainings of health care workers in sign language and to ensure that information is also made available in Braille and other formats that facilitate use by those with visual impairments, as outlined in our HIV testing strategy.
- Key materials developed by HIV and reproductive health departments have been adapted and produced in Braille - to mention specifically the gender based violence materials, sexual reproductive health package and the HIV treatment literacy manual. These have been shared with the Council for the Blind for further dissemination using their different platforms.
I thank you.
POSITION ON THE FORMULATION AND IMPLEMENTATION OF
USER FRIENDLY DISABILITY POLICIES
- HON. KWARAMBA asked the Minister of Health and Child
Care to explain the Government position as regards the formulation and implementation of user friendly disability policies and to also give statistics on the numbers of HIV positive people living with disabilities.
THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH AND CHILD CARE
(HON. DR. MUSIIWA): Madam Speaker, the MoHCC is committed
to leaving no one behind in its interventions in the national HIV response as we focus on closing all the taps in prevention and treatment of HIV/AIDS. Persons with disability are among the vulnerable populations for which we have specific programming in view of the challenges they face in accessing services. Herewith some of the measures in place:
- Within the ministry of Health and Child Care, we have a rehabilitation unit that works together with organisations of PWDs and sectors working in the disability field, as well as facilitating linkages with other health programmes.
- Policy formulation and implementation is guided by evidence. The MoHCC conducted a national survey on living conditions among persons with disability with a focus on health - including HIV/AIDS, STIs, TV and cancer. In response to the findings from the survey, we are improving our existing strategies and policies to ensure they are inclusive of PWDs, including infrastructure that is accessible in critical departments like maternity wards, and pharmacy.
- Organisations of people with disabilities are aware of the policies and have platforms for communicating and implementing in the constituencies they work.
- Statistics on the numbers of HIV positive people living with disabilities;
- Currently our national health information system does not routinely capture HIV information specific to PWDs. However, such statistics can be obtained from time to time surveys. Data captured from the 2013 national disability survey shows that 8.9% of males and
11.2% of females disclosed that they were living with HIV.
- A key recommendation from the 2013 survey is to include disability in all population based surveys so that we have disaggregated health statistics on people with disabilities. Therefore, going forward, all future HIV related surveys will include some questions on disability, then such data will be readily available.
UTILISATION OF FUNDS DEPOSITED IN THE DISTRICT
ACCOUNT FOR THE CONSTRUCTION OF DONGAMUZI CLINIC
- M. KHUMALO asked the Minister of Health and Child Care to explain to the House how the sum of $23 000 earmarked for the construction of Dongamuzi Clinic, which was deposited in the District Account in 2014 was utilised?
THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH AND CHILD CARE
(HON. DR. MUSIIWA): Thank you Hon. Khumalo for your question.
The Ministry of Health and Child Care needs to clarify the issue with the
District Council. Once that is done, feedback will be given to the House.
UTILISATION OF FUNDS ALLOCATED IN THE 2016-2017
BUDGET FOR THE CONSTRUCTION OF DONGAMUZI CLINIC
- M. KHUMALO asked the Minister of Health and Child
Care to explain to the House how the amount of $200 000 and $250 000 which was allocated to the Ministry on the 2016 and 2017 Budgets respectively, for construction of Dongamuzi Clinic in Lupane West Constituency was used?
THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH AND CHILD CARE
(HON. DR. MUSIIWA): Thank you Hon. Khumalo for raising that question. In 2016, Dongamuzi Clinic was allocated $200 000. However, only $50 000 was disbursed to pay suppliers. The balance was taken back as unused budget by Treasury.
In 2017, the Ministry of Finance and Economic Development allocated $250 000 to ensure that the project is completed. In June, 2017 a release of $100 000 earmarked for suppliers was disbursed which they have not yet exhausted.
POLICY ON ISSUANCE OF TRAVEL INSURANCE BY MEDICAL
INSURANCE COMPANIES
- HON. MANGAMI asked the Minister of Health and Child Care to inform the House what Government policy is regarding issuance of travel insurance cover?
THE MINISTER HEALTH AND CHILD CARE (HON. DR.
MUSIIWA): The issue of health insurance is a voluntary issue in this country. We have no universal health coverage, so naturally those who are on medical insurance are those who choose to pay for it. Local health insurance is covered under the Medical Services Act of 2000 and insurers provide schemes that cover travel abroad as an option. Thank you.
POLICY REGARDING SETTING UP OF ONE BORDER POST
(OBP)
- HON. A. MNANGAGWA asked the Minister of Home Affairs to explain to the House the Government policy as regards considering the setting up of a One Border Post (OBP) similar to the one in Chirundu in order to ease movement of people, heavy traffic such as haulage trucks and private cars.
THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS (HON.
MGUNI): I would like to advise the House that Government has already adopted a policy of transforming border operations from separate borders into One Border Posts starting with the major ports of entry and exit.
The next port of call for this project is the Beitbridge Border Post and the matter is already under discussion following the Bi-National
Commission between Zimbabwe and South Africa held in Harare in 2016.
The process will be replicated to other ports such as Plumtree, Mutare and Nyamapanda depending on bi-lateral agreements and the necessary funding.
ALIGNING OF THE CITIZENSHIP OF ZIMBABWE ACT AND THE
IMMIGRATION ACT TO THE CONSTITUTION
- HON. CHIRISA asked the Minister of Home Affairs to:-
- Explain to the House what steps the Ministry has taken to date, to align the Citizenship of Zimbabwe Act and the Immigration Act with the new Constitution;
- State whether the new Citizenship and Immigration Board has been put in place;
- Explain why people still apply for citizenship and work permits from the Registrar General’s Office.
THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS (HON.
MGUNI): On question (a), I would like to advise the House that my Ministry has carried out consultations with the Ministry of Justice, Legal and Parliamentary Affairs to facilitate the process and this is therefore work in progress.
- Citizenship on Immigration Board is still under the process of being finalised.
- The Registrar General’s Department is the legal authority which is mandated to register citizenship. Processing of work permits is done by the Immigration Department.
REVENUE REALISED FROM ZANU PF RALLY LIVE
BROADCAST
- HON. SITHOLE asked the Minister of Media, Information and Broadcasting Services to state how much revenue was realised from the ZANU PF rally live broadcast on ZBC in Mutare.
THE MINISTER OF MEDIA, INFORMATION AND
BROADCASTING SERVICES (HON. DR. MUSHOHWE): Mr.
Speaker Sir, the coverage of events at the Zimbabwe Broadcasting Corporation is based on commercial decisions which the Corporation does on a case by case basis and the issue of revenue from the ZANU PF rally live broadcast in Mutare should be viewed in line with advertisers and programmes/production sponsors. These advertisers and sponsors are interested in accessing large numbers of viewers for their showcasing and the rally in Mutare offered an opportunity for the national broadcaster to attract such a large multitude of viewers. In this case, Mr. Speaker Sir, such high numbers of viewers led to revenue generation as the national broadcaster marketed and sold large numbers of viewers to would be advertisers and sponsors in that possible shortest time and the benefit continues in the long term.
Mr. Speaker Sir, whenever the Head of State, President Cde. Robert Gabriel Mugabe addresses a rally or other gatherings, the national broadcaster receives a high peak in viewership as Zimbabweans want to hear the message of the President. From these rallies by the Head of State, Mr. Speaker Sir, the national broadcaster gets free content varying from entertainment by musicians who grace such occasions and information on the state of the nation through various speakers who would have been invited.
The business strategy envisaged by the national broadcaster, Mr. Speaker Sir, is thus to cover any event which attracts high numbers of viewers in order to attract advertisers and sponsors. Any event that would have been communicated to is covered for commercial benefit, such as the live broadcast at the National Shrine during heroes and heroines burial is now sponsored. Mr. Speaker Sir, the coverage of such rallies is therefore an investment in numbers that will pay dividends. In sync with this, the national broadcaster is thus employing a tried and tested strategy which demands total conviction and support from all stakeholders from different social distributes. I thank you Mr. Speaker.
PROGRESS ON THE IMPLEMENTATION OF THE DIGITAL
BROADCASTING MIGRATION PROJECT
- HON. NDUNA asked the Minister of Media, Information and
Broadcasting Services to appraise the House on the progress the Ministry has made in implementing the digital broadcasting migration project; ad to further indicate when it is expected to be completed.
THE MINISTER OF MEDIA, INFORMATION AND
BROADCASTING SERVICES (HON. DR. MUSHOHWE): Mr.
Speaker Sir, Zimbabwe embarked on the digitalisation project in March of 2015, in line with developments across the world, as sanctioned by the International Telecommunication Union, the ITU. Apart from the migration from analogue television broadcasting to digital television broadcasting, this project is also addressing the challenge of poor or no radio reception that exists in some parts of the country, particularly in rural and border areas, where members of the public have resorted to hostile foreign services.
Mr. Speaker Sir, at its inception in March of 2015, the project has a target completion date of March 2016. We are now in August of 2017 and the project is yet to hit the halfway mark. The major challenge to the project has been the slow pace of disbursement of funds against other national priorities. The whole digital broadcasting migration project is estimated to cost $172 million. So far, only $47 million has been disbursed to the project and that disbursement has been over a period of two years. It we go by this pace of funds disbursement, then the digitalisation project will take us another five years to complete. A balance of $125 million is still required to complete this project. As it stands, the contractor is owed about $11 million dollars in equipment that is ready for shipment, but will not be shipped to Zimbabwe on account of non-payment. The issue of funding, coupled with the challenge of making foreign payments, is the major hurdle that needs to be addressed for the speedier implementation of this project.
Be that as it may, Mr. Speaker Sir, allow me to say significant progress has been made with the funds that have been disbursed so far, albeit at a reduced pace. In terms of site preparation, to make the various sites ready for equipment installation, the following progress has been made so far:
- Thirteen out of fifteen transmitter sites access roads have been completed.
- All the 44 sites that required power supply installation or upgrade have been completed.
- Two transmitter equipment rooms that were required for Chimanimani and Kariba sites have been completed.
- Seven out of eight sites equipment rooms that required room expansion have been completed (Mutare, Nyanga, Kamativi, Kenmaur, Rutenga, Mt Darwin, Karoi).
- Six out of seven existing towers that needed repair work have been completed (Harare, Bulawayo, Kadoma, Chimanimani, Mutorashanga and Gokwe), the Chivhu tower as well needed to be replaced. Repair work on a further four of the towers that need to be replaced is also set to commence.
- Civil works for three out of four TV studios, the master control room, web TV and playout rooms at Pockets Hill have been completed.
- Civil works for two radio transmission and two radio production studios at Mbare have been completed.
- Civil works for one radio transmission and one radio production studio at Montrose studios have also been completed.
- A property has been acquired for the Broadcasting Authority of Zimbabwe’s Central Monitoring Station in Harare.
In terms of equipment installation, the following equipment installations have been completed:
- Two out of four television studios, Master Control Room and
Playout System at Pockets Hill in Harare.
- Main head-end at Pockets Hill in Harare.
- Statellite uplink terminal at Pockets Hill in Harare.
- Six out of 48 digital transmitter sites, at Kamativi, Kenmaur, Mutare, Nyanga, Susamoya and Harare.
- The BAZ Central Content Monitoring system and seven remote
stations.
- Seven new transmitter towers at Binga, Kotwa, Bindura, Nkayi,
Mashave, Gokwe Sengwa and Zvishavane.
Following the last disbursement of funds to the project in
November of 2016, more equipment has started arriving into the country and the following progress is expected to be achieved by the end of this year:
- Installation of two new towers at Hwange and Honde Valley.
- Completion of five new tower foundations at Insiza junction, Tsholotsho, Chikombedzi, Murewa and Gutu.
- Installation of digital transmission equipment on seven existing sites, namely Bulawayo, Gokwe, Mutorashanga, Kadoma,
Gwendingwe, Binga, Kotwa.
- Installation of new radio transmission equipment on seven FM transmitter sites at Kamativi, Kenmaur, Susamoya, Nyanga, Mutare.
- Delivery of 48 ENG camera sets for the public broadcaster ZBC.
Mr. Speaker Sir, the completion of the digitalisation programme will result in significant increase in the number of television channels that can be viewed by the public on their television sets. These channels will need to be filled with content or the programmes to be viewed by the public, otherwise we will have a digital platform with no programmes to deliver. To this extent, Government is assisting content producers with the provision of production equipment and meeting the costs of production, as it has been observed that access to production equipment such as cameras, lights and editing machines, as well as mitigation against costs of production removes the barriers that would otherwise make it difficult for the massive demand for content on the digital platform to be met.
Government has therefore embarked on outreach programmes to mobilise content creators to produce and supply content to the digital platform. To-date, all provincial capitals have been covered and the exercise has been extended to language communities in areas such as
Kariba, Nyanga, Chimanimani, Chipinge, Plumtree, Hwange, Binga and Victoria Falls, to ensure that all our national languages find expression on our television screen as required by our Constitution.
Fourteen productions have been completed in Harare, Masvingo, Bulawayo, Mutare and Lupane and thirteen productions are currently underway in Harare, Gutu, Bulawayo and Binga. More productions will commence in different parts of the country as more funds are disbursed. A significant number of content creators do not have formal training in this industry and this has an impact on the quality of their products. In order to improve on the quality of products, Government has roped in the Zimbabwe Film and Television Training School of Southern Africa
(ZIFTTSSA) to provide short training courses prior to the commencement of productions.
Mr. Speaker Sir, content production is a real business opportunity for content creators that will lead to employment creation and growth of our creative arts industry as well as contribute towards the economic growth of our economy. We are also in the process of acquiring 50 000 Set Top Boxes, which will be distributed in those areas where digital transmitters would have been installed. This will allow members of the public in those areas to start receiving digital services as the project is rolled out.
In conclusion, Mr. Speaker Sir, whilst some progress has been made on the digital broadcasting migration project, more work still needs to be done in order to complete this project. As I have already pointed out, the issue of funding still needs to be addressed in order to speed up the whole migration process. Thank you Mr. Speaker Sir.
USE OF A HELICOPTER TO ATTEND A PRIVATE FUNCTION BY
GENERAL CHIWENGA
- HON. G. SITHOLE asked the Minister of Defence to explain why General Chiwenga used a helicopter to attend a private function in Wedza.
THE MINISTER OF DEFENCE (HON. DR. SEKERAMAYI):
Thank you Madam Speaker. First and foremost, this question lacks details because it does not specify which private function General
Chiwenga attended using a helicopter. This makes it difficult for us to adequately respond to the Hon. Member’s question and to put it into proper perspective.
Be that as it may, the helicopter is an alternative mode of transport at his disposal, by virtue of him being the Commander of the Zimbabwe Defence Forces which operates the helicopters. Depending on the schedule in his office, the General can decide on whether to go by road or by helicopter.
Madam Speaker, there are times when we have competing events
in our office life, where one seeks to attend to private as well as official functions on the same day and in order to attend both, one has to use the fastest mode of transport available.
Madam Speaker, the General is a Senior Government Official who is very rational in his decision making and I am sure his decision to use the helicopter was meant to address certain urgent issues pertaining to the defence of this country. I thank you.
An Hon. Member having stood up on a supplementary question to question number 28.
THE TEMPORARY SPEAKER: How could you have a
supplementary when the question has not been answered ? You can only read from the Hansard. If you have another question, then you can come and ask - but for now, you cannot. What do you supplement when you do not know what the answer is like? Can you please take your seat?
PROGRESS ON THE CONSTRUCTION OF INFRASTRUCTURE
USING THE OPEC FUND FOR INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT
LOAN FACILITY
- HON. NDUNA asked the Minister of Primary and Secondary Education to appraise the House on the progress the Ministry has made in the construction of the envisaged 12 Primary and five secondary schools in eight rural provinces, under the US$20 million loan facility from the OPEC Fund for International Development (OFID).
THE MINISTER OF PRIMARY AND SECONDARY
SCHOOLS (HON. DR. DOKORA): Thank you Madam Speaker. The
two major milestones have been reached towards construction of the targeted schools. Firstly, feasibility study report has been submitted to OFID. Secondly, authority to advertise for tenders has been obtained and this will be flighted in the press on 4th August, 2017. The next stage will be the engagement of contractors of begin construction work.
Satellite schools selected for funding under OFID
Province |
Pry |
Name Of School |
District |
Enrolment |
Sec |
Name Of School |
District |
Enrolment |
Total |
Mashonaland West |
3 |
Sadomba Extension |
Makonde |
500 |
1 |
Tavoy
|
Hurungwe |
400 |
4 |
Chehama |
Hurungwe |
450 |
|
|
|
|
|||
Just Right |
Mhondoro Ngezi |
583 |
|
|
|
|
|||
Midlands |
1 |
Budiriro |
Gokwe North |
500 |
1
|
Neta |
Mberengwa |
400 |
2 |
Mashonaland Central |
2 |
Tengenenge |
Guruve |
300 |
1 |
Belgonie |
Mazowe |
401 |
3 |
Craigside |
Bindura |
370 |
|
|
|
|
|||
Masvingo |
1 |
Nyuni |
Mwenezi |
500 |
1 |
Nyuni |
Mwenezi |
500 |
2 |
Matabeleland North |
2 |
Kokoloza |
Binga |
538 |
0 |
|
|
|
2 |
Teme |
Bubi |
440 |
|
|
|
|
|||
Mashonaland East |
1 |
Makumimavi |
Chikomba |
400 |
0 |
|
|
|
1 |
Manicaland |
1 |
Lawrencedale |
Makoni |
400 |
1 |
Sterksrooms |
Chipinge |
419 |
2 |
Matabeleland South |
0 |
|
|
400 |
1 |
Mokgampo |
Mangwe |
690 |
1 |
TOTAL |
11 |
|
|
|
6 |
|
|
2 819 |
17 |
LOANS FOR THE CONSTRUCTION OF HARARE RING ROAD
AND THE HARARE-CHIRUNDU HIGHWAY
- HON. NDUNA asked the Minister of Transport and
Infrastructural Development to appraise the House whether there has been any progress in efforts to secure loans for the construction of the Harare Ring Road and the Harare – Chirundu Highway.
THE MINISTER OF TRANSPORT AND
INFRASTRUCTURAL DEVELOPMENT (HON. DR. GUMBO):
Mr. Speaker Sir, my Ministry is making efforts to secure loans for the construction of the Harare Ring Road and Harare – Chirundu Highway. The necessary contracts to access the loans from China are still under review and the House will be briefed as soon as the process has been finalised.
CORRUPT OFFICIALS AT KWEKWE DRIVING SCHOOL
- HON. CHIRISA asked the Minister of Transport and
Infrastructural Development whether the Ministry is aware that Kwekwe
Driving School asks for bribes from the unqualified drivers in order to issue them the driver’s licences. If so, to explain what steps the Ministry has taken to deal with the corrupt officials at Kwekwe Driving School, considering that road carnage is on the rise due to this rot.
THE MINISTER OF TRANSPORT AND
INFRASTRUCTURAL DEVELOPMENT (HON. DR. GUMBO):
Mr. Speaker Sir, I wish to advice that we have not received any complaints from the public on the matter that has been raised. However, since it has been brought to our attention, we will investigate together with the Vehicle Inspection Department who are the only authority which issues drivers’ licences in the country. If we find that the allegations are true, the driving school will be deregistered.
FINANCING OF INFRASTRUCTURE CONSTRUSTION FOR SMES
- HON. NDUNA asked the Minister of Small and Medium Enterprises and Cooperative Development to inform the House on what steps the Ministry has taken to incentivize private players to finance the construction of infrastructure such as market stalls, factory shells and ablution facilities for Small and Medium Enterprises, given the phenomenal growth of the informal sector over the past decade.
THE MINISTER OF SMALL AND MEDIUM ENTERPRISES AND COOPERATIVE DEVELOPMENT (HON. NYONI): Mr.
Speaker Sir, the provision of appropriate and affordable infrastructure is critical for the development and growth of the SMEs sector. The Ministry, through the National Micro, Small and Medium Enterprises policy framework (2014 – 2018) outlines infrastructure provision for SMEs as one of the anchor pillars to support the development and growth of SMEs.
Steps taken by the Ministry: -
- The Ministry has engaged local authorities to mainstream SMEs development in their plans.
- In particular, local authorities have been engaged to identify and provide suitable land for the development and construction of
SME infrastructure throughout the country under various models:-
- SMEs are being provided with land to put up their own infrastructure. This model has been successfully implemented in Mutoko.
- Local authorities construct infrastructure such as market stalls and factory shells where SMEs rent from council. Private players are being given land to construct MSME infrastructure under Private Public Partnership (PPPs) arrangements (Built operate and Transfers). The local authorities provide the land and private players construct the work space. Under this arrangement, some local authorities such as City of Harare are also pursuing profit sharing models with private players.
- Private players will enter into BOT and BOOT arrangements with State or statutory corporations to construct infrastructure enjoy tax holidays for the first five years and taxed at 15% for the second five years.
- Private players who construct new industrial buildings for SMEs are eligible to claim 100% Special Initial Allowance (SIA) where 50% is allowed in the first year and the balance over the next two years.
On the motion of THE MINISTER OF TRANSPORT AND INFRASTRUCTURE DEVELOPMENT, the House adjourned at
Seventeen Minutes to Five o’clock p.m.
PARLIAMENT OF ZIMBABWE
Thursday, 27th July, 2017
The National Assembly met at a Quarter-past Two O’clock p.m.
PRAYERS
(THE HON. SPEAKER in the Chair)
FIRST READING
SHOP LICENCES AMENDMENT BILL [H. B. 10, 2016].
THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT, PUBLIC WORKS AND NATIONAL HOUSING (HON.
CHINGOSHO) presented the Shop Licences Amendment Bill (H.B. 10,
2016).
Bill read the first time.
Bill referred to the Parliamentary Legal Committee.
MOTION
RATIFICATION OF THE APPOINTMENT OF MR. MICHAEL NDUDZO AS AUDITOR-GENERAL
THE HON. MINISTER OF FINANCE AND ECONOMIC
DEVELOPMENT (HON. CHINAMASA): Mr. Speaker Sir, I rise to
move the motion standing in my name. I think that I owe it to the House to give a bit of background to the reason why I am before this august House seeking this approval….
HON. GONESE: On a point of order Mr. Speaker. I beg the
Speaker’s indulgence and I will explain why I am raising a point of order on the process. Before the Minister goes ahead, in terms of Standing Order No. 68 (d), as read with the Constitution; I am going to refer to the provisions of the Constitution, on reflection when you look at the provisions of Section 309, that is the one which refers to the appointment of the Auditor General; I will start from 309 and I will explain why. Section 309 outlines the functions of the Auditor General….
THE HON. SPEAKER: Hon. Members on the left, your
colleague is speaking and you do not give him due respect!
HON. GONESE: I am starting with the functions of the Auditor General because I think that will help me to explain the point of order which I am raising. First and foremost, Section 309 lays out in a comprehensive manner the functions of the Auditor General. I believe that this is a very important office in our country. Then I will go to Section 310 which is the relevant question with the issue of the appointment. The Section is also very clear that the President is the one who makes the appointment but it is subject to the approval of Parliament which is what the Hon. Minister is seeking. However, in terms of the office of the Auditor General, I will refer you Mr. Speaker and Members of this august House to Section 313. If you look at Section 313, it is very clear that this office of the Auditor General is a very critical office and in terms of the removal, it is governed by provisions which are similar to the ones applying to the removal of Judges and members of Commissions. In particular, I want to draw the attention of the Hon. Minister as well as Members of this august House to subsection (2) whereby, if for any reason the Minister of Finance and Economic Development feels that the question of the removal of the Auditor
General has to be considered, the Committee of Public Accounts… HON. CHINAMASA: On a point of order, I think I also need to raise a point of order. There is no issue here of a removal…
THE HON. SPEAKER: Order! Just a minute! Can we be
procedural? I think we need to be procedural. Hon. Minister, why do you not allow him to state his case and you respond accordingly to clarify? HON. GONESE: Thank you very much for your protection. The
point which I am really making is that there is the involvement of the Public Accounts. The Public Accounts Committee is the one which has got a relationship and it is really our representative as Parliament. That particular Committee has to be consulted. Unfortunately, our
Constitution in terms of the requirements for the approval of Parliament to be granted has got a lacuna. There is a gap and it was not clearly outlined.
I want to draw the attention of this august House to the provisions of Section 339 because I think they have got some relevance. What happens in terms of our Constitution and the reason why I am raising these points is that I believe that we must make a purposive interpretation of the Constitution where there are gaps, where there maybe some issues which may not have been captured but what is critical is what was the spirit.
In terms of Section 339, it is very clear that there are two processes where there is advice which is being sought or where there is consultation. I will explain why I believe that the procedure in terms of which this motion has been brought is not in accordance with the spirit that was envisaged in the Constitution. In terms of that section which I have just referred to, it actually requires where for example an appointment has to be made on the advice of another authority. For that other authority to be written to in writing and I will read the provisions in details. They say that “the person who is seeking the advice must inform the other person, in writing, what he or she proposes to do and provide the other person with enough information to enable the other person to understand the nature and effect of the proposed act and afford the other person a reasonable opportunity to tender advice and the
person or authority is obliged to follow the advice tendered by the other person.” That is where advice is required.
However, where something is to be done after or in consultation with, the same procedure is followed. The only difference being that the person or authority is not obliged to follow any recommendation made by the other person. In my respectful submission where the approval of Parliament is sought, it is similar to a situation where the President is acting on the advice of the institution in terms of the advice of the Legislature.
I want to submit that where that is done, we must then have due process in terms of affording this institution adequate time. The reason why I made reference to the issue of removal is that if we are going to have involvement of the Public Accounts Committee, in this instance the
Standing Rules and Orders are silent. Where the Standing Rules and Orders are silent, I think it is up to us both the Members of this institution as well as the Minister to try to fill in those gaps so that we are going to act in line and in accordance with the spirit that was enshrined in the Constitution.
My submission is that the process that we are trying to follow is not in accordance or in sync with that particular spirit. If you listen to what is happening outside regarding the proposed appointment of Mr. Ndudzo, I do not want to delve too much into it but I just want to give that contextual background. We are having a situation where in terms of the reaction of the Zimbabwean population, there are already so many insinuations that are taking place. If you have regard to today’s Financial Gazette, it actually has the headline “Chiri Fired”. If you look at The Herald of today, it actually says “Ndudzo New Auditor General”. When you look at those issues in conjunction, I think it is imperative for us as an institution to really maintain the integrity of this august House. I believe we can only maintain the integrity of this august House by having a scenario where we are going to have our Public Accounts Committee to make a recommendation. I want to believe that this motion as it stands is premature. Unfortunately, I have already alluded to the fact that our Standing Orders are silent but I want to give.. THE HON. SPEAKER: The rules stipulate that we must be silent so that we can understand each other and be able to contribute therefore constructively. But if we have not understood, how do we respond constructively if all of us continue to talk? The Hon. Member is raising a constitutional issue and I am sure the Hon. Minister would like to hear his argument properly so that he can respond accordingly. Please, can you wind up?
HON. GONESE: I think it is important just to remind Hon.
Members and fortunately, the Minister of Finance and Economic Development was in the last Parliament. We had a similar situation where in terms of the appointments of Commissioners, there were no procedures outlined in our Standing Orders. It was simply a provision that the Commissioners are going to be appointed on the recommendation of the Committee on Standing Rules and Orders. At that particular point in time, there were no procedures outlined.
In its wisdom, the previous Committee on Standing Rules and Orders then adopted procedures which entailed the public interviews and so on. At that time we did not have them enshrined in our Constitution. They were only enshrined in the current Constitution but I am saying it because I believe if we look at best practices elsewhere, where appointments are made with the approval of the Legislature and I will give an example of South Africa; their Public Protector is appointed by the President with the approval of Parliament. They have actually conducted hearings in terms of which they interview prospective candidates and then make an informed recommendation. In America where the President makes appointments with the approval of the Senate, they also have some public hearings.
THE HON. SPEAKER: Can you confine yourself to what our Constitution says and not to the South African Constitution or the US Constitution please.
HON. GONESE: I was simply making reference to looking at best practices but let me go back to the procedure in our Constitution. It says that we must approve and I believe that this institution, for it to be able to make an informed decision needs to be guided. I believe that the appropriate vehicle to guide us is the Public Accounts Committee which can then make some recommendations so that when we come to the approval, we do so from an informed position.
This is a very critical office Mr. Speaker where issues of integrity, issues of stability are not confined to the issue of a CV. What has been put in our pigeon holes Mr. Speaker Sir is just a CV which gives us the background and the experience of the person. But the Committee on Public Accounts, if given an opportunity will then be able to look at the suitability of the candidate, the history of the candidate, how that candidate has conducted himself or herself in her previous work experiences, so that we can then decide as to whether that candidate is a candidate where we can repose our trust. We do so from a position of knowledge and not at this juncture whereby we are just given a CV and we are expected to do it at the speed of an identified flying object which is just flying past this august House. So, in my view Mr. Speaker, I believe that if the Minister can really consider seriously the submissions which I have made so that when we do make our informed decisions, it is a decision, we can all be proud and happy about.
In conclusion, Mr. Speaker, I am Mr. Speaker, I am going to finalise by saying that concerns have been raised by various legislators across the political divide. I have actually had some interactions with Members who are really having some misgivings about the appointment of the candidate in question. I do not want to pre-judge him but I believe that if we are given an opportunity; or at least if our Committee is given an opportunity, it can then do due diligence and at the end of the day, if and when we do make the appointment, it is something which we can all be proud of. Those are my submissions Mr. Speaker.
THE HON. SPEAKER: The Point of Order appears to be based on newspaper reports and the newspaper reports can be misleading. I think we are also guided in terms of our Standing Rules that we are not even allowed to come to this House and read as evidence what is written in newspapers. So, unless the argument is based purely on our constitutional provision that argument can be sustained.
HON. MISIHAIRABWI-MUSHONGA: Mr. Speaker, Hon.
Gonese referred to the fact that our Standing Rules actually do not provide for instances such as these. I want to disagree that in fact they do. Firstly, let me start by saying if you go to rule 16, in our Standing Rules and Orders, the Public Accounts and the Parliamentary Legal Committee are the two Committees, it is very peremptory, it actually says there must be. So there are two committees that are referred to in our Standing Rules and Orders as a must that should be there and one of that Committee is Public Accounts.
On Standing Order Number 20 (b), when it is talking about the role of Portfolio Committees - because like Hon. Gonese said, if you go to Section 310 (2) which specifically speaks about approval of Parliament, that is the only other clause that you find in the Constitution that actually speaks specifically about the need for Parliament to approve. In some of these appointments it is actually that Parliament will sit probably as Standing Rules and Orders and give specific names to the President, then the President can pick from those names.
However, for this particular one, it says the President, with the approval of Parliament. So, whilst there is no particular definition for approval and Hon. Gonese did go to 339 which you can then read to say, it therefore means that consultation has to be taken in. one understands that that approval is a serious one. Therefore, it is a serious approval; you then should go to Standing Rules, the one that I was referring to, Standing Rule 20(C) which gives responsibilities to portfolio
Committees. If you allow me, Mr. Speaker Sir, it says, ‘monitor, investigate, inquire into and make recommendations relating to any aspect of the legislative programme, budget, policy or any other matter it may consider relevant to the Government department falling within the category of affairs assigned to them.’
So, this Mr. Speaker, I cannot find anything else, in fact, simply put the Auditor General is the secretary to our Committee. We cannot perform without an Auditor General and for the Minister to come here without even having consulted the Public Accounts Committee; we are making reference to this CV. If you go to 310 (2), it says the Auditor General must be a Zimbabwean citizen.
THE HON. SPEAKER: It appears now that you are debating the motion.
HON. MISIHAIRABWI-MUSHONGA: No, but the point of
order is to say can we take his motion. Can he present his motion, given that he has not followed the due process?
THE HON SPEAKER: But you have not heard the Hon.
Minister?
HON. MISIHARABWI-MUSHONGA: He was going on to
explain why we should be considering this particular gentleman for approval and we are saying he is jumping the gun. We do not want to hear about this particular gentlemen until he goes through the relevant step as provided for in our Standing Rules and Orders. All we are asking him is for him to come to the Public Accounts Committee, explain, indicate so that when this motion then comes like any other motion, the Public Accounts Committee will then give a report as a response to his motion. As it is, he has not done what he is supposed to and that is the point we are raising. Thank you. – [HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear.] -
THE HON. SPEAKER: Order, order Hon. Ndebele. What needs
to be clarified is whether or not the Auditor-General has been removed or has left office under certain circumstances, because to jump to the conclusion that she has removed or fired, then try to apply Section 313 of the Constitution before we clearly understand from the Executive whether the Auditor-General has indeed been removed or resigned on her own accord or something else transpired between herself and the
Executive – [HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.] –
I think it is only proper that the Hon. Minister gives that background information to clear the air as to whether or not she has been removed. If indeed she has been removed then, Section 313 of the Constitution shall apply, but if she has not been removed and other circumstances have taken place, then there is no issue.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE AND ECONOMIC
DEVELOPMENT (HON. CHINAMASA): Thank you very Mr.
Speaker, I consider the statements that you mentioned to have been very defamatory. I think you are within your right to have asked me to say something on this matter.
I think Hon. Members should not be prone to making statements that have no basis in fact or in law. The point Mr. Speaker is, the Financial Gazette report is wrong, there is no basis for that report. I have not even bothered to read it, because it is so wrong. They say the Auditor-General was fired - it is wrong because she was not fired. The report in The Herald is equally wrong, they were here when I said I was going to move a motion today, so there is no way an Auditor-General could have been appointed yesterday for the newspaper to say, he is now the Auditor-General – [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] – Let me put the record straight – [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] –
Allow me Mr. Speaker to put the record straight. Mrs. Chiri has been in the Auditor-General’s Department since joining in 1983. She was appointed to her current position in 2004. The 12 years of her term of office expired in February last year, and when it expired, I sought legal advice in the light of the new Constitution, whether or not she was eligible for another appointment. I was advised by my legal practitioners/lawyers that she was eligible. I sought her opinion to say, I was going to recommend to His Excellency the President that we give her another term. She said, no – [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] – Yes, she said no. I went back to His Excellency the President and said that I would need time to look for a replacement and she was asked to extend and continue. She has continued since February last year in that position. Clearly, of course, I must have slept on the job because I should not have waited that long – [HON. MEMBERS:
Inaudible interjections.] –
In February, I again called her to my office to say, may you reconsider, we want to extend your term? I had a two hour meeting with her asking her to reconsider. At the end of that meeting, Mr. Speaker Sir, she said she would agree to have another six year term only to text me. Unfortunately when I read these reports, I went through my cell phone to see whether or not I still have the text message. Fortunately for me, I still have that text message and she said, ‘Sorry, I want to reconsider what I told you yesterday. I do not want to continue.’ – [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] – For the benefit of the House I can read that statement – [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] – No, no, we want things – [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] – Mr. Speaker Sir…
THE HON. SPEAKER: Order, order just a minute – [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] – Order, order Hon. Mashakada and Hon. Mutseyami please. One good thing about us human beings is that we are endowed with the gift of listening, let us not abuse it. If you have got contrary views, you can stand up, be recognised and argue your case, but I shall not allow any shouting down of the Hon. Minister.
Secondly, Hon. Minister, I am not sure you said my statement was defamatory or what?
HON. CHINAMASA: No, no I said statements to the effect that she was fired - that is not correct and defamatory.
THE HON. SPEAKER: Alright fine, thank you.
HON. CHINAMASA: Equally, I did not also take kindly that The Herald would say a new Auditor-General has been appointed when in fact that was also not correct. We want facts here and I also hope that
Hon. Members stick to the facts when they debate on these issues.
THE HON. SPEAKER: Correct.
HON. CHINAMASA: Not to be speculating, if we enter into
speculative debate here, it is not good even for the reputation of Mrs. Chiri. If the House could give me an opportunity, I would be able to basically advise how I want to continue utilising her experience in other respects – given some of the reorganization that we are doing.
THE HON. SPEAKER: Thank you.
HON. CHINAMASA: Mr. Speaker, I basically want to explain to the House and I can swear an Affidavit to what I am telling this House and other Hon. Members will not be able to do that. – [HON.
MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] –
She has continued in that office for more than a year, probably 18 months after her term of office had expired. At the will of His Excellency the President, there is no problem that the Government has with the performance of Mai Chiri with respect to the discharge of her functions as Auditor-General. We had no problems that she be given another six year term which would have made her to have served in that capacity for 20 years. Like I said, she has been in that office since 1983 and has rendered illustrious service.
She was appointed to the post of Auditor in 1984 and she served in that capacity until 1986. She was further promoted in 1986 to Senior Auditor grade and she served in that capacity until 1988. She was further promoted to Assistant Director of Audit in 1988 and she served in that capacity until 1991. She was further promoted to Director of
Audit grade in 1991 and she served in that capacity for a year or two to 1993. In 1993, she was appointed Deputy Auditor-General Parastatals post and she served in that capacity until 2004 when she was appointed Auditor-General. She has served in that capacity, as I said, her second two six year term expired February last year. As I have mentioned, I asked her to continue after I had received legal opinion that she was eligible for another term because the terms which preceded the new Constitution do not count. That is the opinion I was given. I had no time to verify it, so I approached her last year to say I want to recommend that you continue and she said no. I went to the President to say I want her to continue but she has said no. What do we do? He said you need to persuade her. I went back and she said no. So, I said can you continue in this office until I find a replacement and she has continued for almost 18 months.
Even then Mr. Speaker, because I had not found anyone to recommend, I again called her to my office in February this year and we had a two hour chat trying to persuade her to accept another six year term. After the two hours, she said yes. Then later, she texted me and I think she was embarrassed to tell me directly. She said no she wants a rest, she wants to give others a chance and so on. So, it is only then Mr.
Speaker Sir that I went looking for a replacement.
Having given that explanation Mr. Speaker Sir, I hope that I have disposed the issue to do with firing. However, let me say that I have always, in my interaction with the Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee welcomed the comments by that Committee. I have also taken steps like I have advised this august House of measures that I am taking to address the concerns which are perennially raised in the
Auditor’s report.
I constituted, with the help of the Public Service Commission like I said, two units under the Accountant General; one unit to peruse all financial statements of parastatals with a view to advising me on which enterprises are performing and which are not performing. I also constituted another unit dedicated solely to combing through the
Auditor’s reports and see in what way do they agree, in what way do they disagree. Where they agree, we take measures to take to Cabinet so that corrective action is taken. Those two units now are established and I will be in a position to respond to the reports of the Auditor General in
October this year.
I also realised that these Auditors reports are reflecting some weaknesses in the way we run our finances in Government. In other words, there are no systems, trained people and so on. I approached Public Service Commission to set up an internal audit department situated in my Ministry to take care of internal auditors in line Ministries.
Again after she refused to have the six year extension, I approached Mrs. Chiri to say I would want her to be head of the Internal Audit Department so that you can set or establish systems for Internal Auditors, as well as training them so that we do not always worry about the horse after it has bolted. We want to prevent that which is being complained about in the Auditor’s report. It must be prevented and not to act post-facto when all harm is done. As a result, I am happy to say that she agreed and we are in the process of setting up the Internal Audit department and I am proposing her as the head of that internal department.
I also want to say Mr. Speaker Sir, that in order to further strengthen the management of our finances, each Ministry is now establishing an audit committee, which will be chaired by a civil servant of principal director or director grade from another Ministry; not from that Ministry. In other words, the audit committee of the Ministry of Finance and Economic Development which will be set up will be chaired by someone from Women’s Affairs or Youth Affairs and so on. Already Mr. Speaker Sir, 18 line Ministries have already established their committees and we are yet to go and establish ten other committees.
THE HON. SPEAKER: Order. I hope the Hon. Minister has responded adequately to the clarification of the issue of removal of the Auditor General. I was trying to avoid the Minister going into the Motion. I am sure he will have the opportunity to do that. My ruling is as follows, the Auditor-General has not been removed and that is supported by Section 310(3) of the Constitution, which reads as follows;
“The term of office of the Auditor General is a period of and not more than six years and a person must not be appointed as Auditor General after he or she has served for one or more periods, whether continuously or not, amounting to 12 years.” Auditor General Chiri has served for 12 years plus the other 18 months or so. In fact, she has gone beyond the constitutional provision – [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.]
– Order, order.
Secondly, if you read the Constitution in terms of Schedule 6, officers who served in their current offices before the enactment of this
Constitution continue to serve without loss of any benefits and position. So, read the Constitution not in terms of just one section but read it in a composite manner.
Thirdly, as the Hon. Minister has confirmed, the Auditor General was given an opportunity to state her case and she stated her case. According to the Hon. Minister, she continues to serve Government still in the Audit department, perhaps on a more elevated area in terms of the responsibilities that are being assigned to her. So, there is no question of removal as such. I will therefore rule accordingly and ask the Hon. Minister to move his motion accordingly.
HON. MUNENGAMI: Thank you Hon. Speaker. We really
appreciate your ruling, but I was suggesting that we have heard the Hon.
Minister’s side of the story and we have not heard from Ms. Chiri. We do not know whether what the Minister is telling us is actually what transpired. I think it will be prudent enough for us as Parliament just to hear the other side of the story from Ms. Chiri because the Minister is talking about message texting and again Ms. Chiri accepting another post, but at the same time refusing another post. It becomes difficult even from this other side of Parliament for us to know what actually happened. I am just suggesting that if it is possible, maybe we can also hear from her side of the story for us to have an informed decision through the Public Accounts Committee and not through the Minister. Thank you.
THE HON. SPEAKER: Thank you. If you listened carefully to
the Hon. Minister, the reason of coming to Parliament is for the approval of the appointment, and that is a fundamental issue with the approval of Parliament. That is what the Hon. Minister is doing and you are free to debate thereafter when he has moved his motion.
Hon. Misihairabwi-Mushonga having stood up to debate.
I will not allow any further debate. If you want any debate, you will debate the motion. –[HON. TSHUMA: Inaudible interjections]Hon. Tshuma, please hold your cool. Hon. Member, you are going to debate the motion and say everything that you want to say. Thank you.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE, LEGAL AND
PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (HON. CHINAMASA): Mr. Speaker
Sir, I believe that I am acting in accordance with the Constitution and according to the provisions of the Constitution, more particularly Section 310. All the sections which were quoted, read them – they are not relevant to the motion, none of them are relevant to the motion. Even the Standing Orders that were quoted are also not relevant to the motion. As I see it, I am completely within the confines of the law and above all the confines of the Constitution and I am acting properly.
The motion before the House is I am seeking approval of this august House to approve the proposed appointment of Mr. Machael Nyamadzawo Ndudzo to the position of Auditor General. We cannot find...-[HON. MEMBERS: No, no.]- Mr. Speaker...
Hon. Mutseyami having stood up to debate.
THE HON. SPEAKER: Order, order. Hon. Mutseyami, I said if you have issues, you are going to debate the motion. Can you sit down please? You have the opportunity to debate the motion and say all that you want to say. The Hon. Minister has clearly said the proposed appointment. So, the debate is still alive. Thank you.
HON. CHINAMASA: Mr. Speaker Sir, in moving this motion, I call upon Hon. Members to support the motion. Mr. Ndudzo has had an illustrious career... –[HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections]-both in the public and the private sector.
Hon. Chinotimba having been speaking aloud.
THE HON. SPEAKER: Hon. Chinotimba, please allow the
Minister to speak.
HON. CHINAMASA: He qualifies in terms of the Constitution to be Auditor-General. He is the first person who established the office of the Accountant-General in the Ministry of Finance and Economic
Development. He served in that capacity as the first Accountant General.
So, he understands Government systems and what needs to be done, he clearly understands. Mr. Speaker Sir, I have circulated his CV. After serving in that capacity for about six years, he went into the private sector and has been a director of many companies. These are set out in the CV of Mr. Ndudzo.
THE HON. SPEAKER: Order Hon. Minister. Order, order Hon. Members. Anyone who is going to shout now, I shall remove him from this House. I have said if you have got issues, you will debate.
HON. CHINAMASA: Mr. Speaker Sir, I value the experience and it is this experience that Mr. Ndudzo has accumulated over many years in both the public and private sectors that more than qualifies him to occupy the office of Auditor-General. That exposure is very important if we are to reform our institutions in Government. We have taken strides in attracting experienced people to come back into Government. The current Accountant-General retired from Price Water House and has brought a wealth of experience into Government. The relationship that we have build between Treasury and the Auditor-General is largely because of the reforms that the Accountant-General is undertaking. I am now looking forward to Mr. Ndudzo serving in this capacity so that he can complement what the Accountant-General is doing. As I have already indicated, Mrs. Chiri will head the Internal Audit Department and I believe that between the three institutions, we should be able to get our finances back on track in terms of management, accountability and transparency. Mr. Speaker Sir, I accordingly move that the motion be adopted. I thank you.
Hon. Chinotimba having stood up to give a point of order.
THE HON. SPEAKER: This is the time for debate. I do not want to disrupt the Hon. Minister’s motion. Can you debate the motion. Can you approach the Chair.
Hon. Chinotimba approached the Chair.
HON. HOLDER: Thank you Mr. Speaker Sir for giving me this opportunity to contribute towards the Hon. Minister’s motion. Mr. Speaker Sir, after the explanation that the Hon. Minister has put towards this House and after your ruling, a few things have run through my head as I was going through the Curriculum Vitae (C.V) of Mr. Mike Ndudzo. If you take note Mr. Speaker, you are very passionate about the Auditor
General’s Report and every Member of Parliament in this House is also very passionate. All our debates arise from the Auditor General’s
Report. However, taking note of the C.V that has been presented to each
Hon. Member, you will see that most of the companies that this Michael
Ndudzo have worked for are in big problems – [HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear.] –
His C.V is very colourful with all sorts of information but with so many companies that are currently battling it out. Dorowa Minerals has not been operating for a long time until it was recapitalised later. If you look at Modzone Enterprises, it is bankrupt and Sunway has failed to take over. If you look at all these companies that he mentioned here Mr. Speaker, my question is - why were public interviews not held? A person who was handpicked, I suspect foul play there; why handpick one person instead of having public interviews?
Mr. Speaker Sir, in such a short period of time, look at the number of companies this man has worked for. None of these companies are operating smoothly, including National Railways of Zimbabwe. Firstel has got a problem. So, I feel that there should have been a panel where public interviews are held and Public Accounts is contacted. I am sure there are other people who have C.Vs, who are eligible to hold that office.
However, for us to just accept to say so and so has been appointed or recommended to His Excellency, where somebody is actually misleading His Excellency by telling him false information - I am not a professional Mr. Speaker, but I want to say to you that his academics and everything on the C.V is pretty good, but again when you look at the companies he had put reference to, you will find that there is a bad track record and anything he touches turns to rubbish. On that note Mr.
Speaker, I rest my case.
*HON. KWARAMBA: Thank you Mr. Speaker Sir. I rise to say a few words concerning appointment of Mr. Ndudzo to the Auditor General’s Office. I heard the Hon. Minister of Finance and Economic Development saying Mr. Ndudzo has a wealth of experience. However, if we look at the track record of Mr. Ndudzo, everywhere he once led, the joint ventures he did with IDC were not successful. So, I realised that we are talking of Mr. Ndudzo who has not done anything fruitful in the past – [HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.] – I am saying the appointment of Mr. Ndudzo could have been a result of a recommendation by some people whom he associate with and have told lies to the President –
[HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.] –
Mrs. Chiri was doing a splendid job. We read the Reports she came up with which were presented to us by the Public Accounts Committee. We know that Mrs Chiri, as a mother, a woman does good work – [HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.] – Women as you can see do not steal; we do not want to destroy the country – (Hon. Members chant Chiri, Chiri, Chiri.) - Thank you. We want to develop our country so that our children can get employed but if there is corruption, our country is brought to ruin. We feel that this woman should be given another term of office so that she continues with her work because in my opinion, she was doing a good job. She should continue doing her job and not replace here with men who steal. Thank you.
Hon. Members chant Chiri, Chiri, Chiri.
The Minister of Finance and Economic Development approached the Chair.
THE HON. SPEAKER: Order, order. The Hon. Minister has
approached the Chair and would like to make a statement. It is the
Chair’s authority.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE AND ECONOMIC
DEVELOPMENT (HON. CHINAMASA): Mr. Speaker Sir, I think
listening to the sentiments of the House on both sides of the political divide, I would want to carry out further consultations – [HON.
MEMBERS: Hear, hear.] –
THE HON. SPEAKER: Order, order. Hon. Kazembe Kazembe,
order please. I think that the Hon. Minster has indicated that he cannot proceed with the debate and I think he has done an honourable thing and let us allow that to happen - [HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.] –
Now Hon. Members on that score, it has been moved that the debate do now adjourn - [AN HON. MEMBER: You have not yet moved it Mr. Speaker.] - I understood him very well - [AN HON. MEMBER: We will check in the Hansard.] – Hon. Members, I think that the Minister has moved that the debate be now adjourned.
HON. GONESE: I want to say for the first time today, I am in total agreement with the Minister for the debate to be adjourned.
Motion put and agreed to.
Debate to resume: Tuesday, 1st August, 2017.
HON. ADV. CHAMISA: On a point of order Hon. Speaker. In
terms of Standing Order No. 68 (d), I just want to say that the kind of approach that we have seen in this Parliament where we debate issues without being partisan is a very good approach. It is a privilege Hon. Speaker Sir, that we cherish that as we continue, we may need to look at issues without the colour of a party, without the colour of a person’s geography but just look at a position on the basis of merit. This is a positive Hon. Speaker Sir. If we may continue to do this on any other issue, that would be the Parliament that Zimbabwe misses and deserves.
Thank you very much Hon. Speaker.
HON. ZINDI: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. In terms of the observation of what has transpired in this House this afternoon…
THE HON. SPEAKER: No, no, Hon. Zindi, please do not flog a dead body. I think the point has been made.
HON. ZINDI: I take back my words but the message has been
sent.
THE HON. SPEAKER: Thank you very much
MOTION
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE AND ECONOMIC
DEVELOPMENT (HON. CHINAMASA): I move that Orders of the
Day, Numbers 2 to 5 on today’s Order Paper be stood over until the rest of the Orders of the Day have been disposed of.
Motion put and agreed to.
MOTION
REPORT OF THE PRIVILEGES COMMITTEE ON DEATH
THREATS TO MEMBERS OF THE MDC-T PARTY
HON. SEN. CHIEF CHARUMBIRA: I move the motion
standing in my name that this House takes note of the Report of the
Privileges Committee on Death Threats to Members of the MDC-T
Party.
HON. ZIYAMBI: I second.
HON. SEN. CHIEF CHARUMBIRA:
GLOSSARY OF TERMS
SMS is an acronym for Short Message Service. It is a text messaging service component of most telephone, World Wide Web, and mobile telephony systems. It utilises standardised communication protocols to enable mobile phone devices to exchange short text messages.
SMSC is Short Message Service Centre. This is the core of the SMS platform. It is tasked with SMS operations such as routing, forwarding and storing of incoming text messages on their way to the desired endpoint. It creates a buffer. Wireless network operators connect
SMSCs through gateways.
Spoofing is a service that allows a caller to masquerade as someone else by falsifying the number that appears on the recipients caller ID display. The same also applies to messaging.
Smart phone is a mobile phone that performs many of the functions of a computer, typically having a touchscreen interface, Internet access, and an operating system capable of running downloaded application (apps).
A basic phone (feature phone) describes mobile phones which are limited in capabilities, in contrast to a modern smartphone. These have the simple functions of calling and sending text messages.
A switch or a network switch (also called switching hub, bridging hub, officially MAC bridge) is a computer networking device that connects devices together on a computer network by using packet switching to receive, process, and forward data to the destination device
A common short code (CSC) is a short telephone number, usually consisting of five digits, that is used to address SMS and MMS messages from a cellular telephone. Each common short code is designed to be unique to each operator.
Cyber crime is defined as a crime in which a computer is the object of the crime (hacking, phishing, spamming) or is used as a tool to commit an offense (child pornography, hate crimes).
A server is a computer or device on a network that manages network resources. There are many different types of servers. For example: File server: a computer and storage device dedicated to storing files. Any user on the network can store files on the server.
1.0 INTRODUCTION
1.1 Following submissions by Hon Nelson Chamisa that he and several Members of Parliament from the MDC -T, had received death threat messages on their mobile phones on the eve of the Official Opening of the Fourth Session of the Eighth Parliament and that death threats and harassment of MDC-T Hon. Members had become the norm each time His Excellency the President was due to address Parliament, the Speaker of the National Assembly ruled, on Thursday, 6thOctober 2016 that there existed a prima facie case of contempt of Parliament. As a result, he directed that the matter be referred to a Privileges Committee to be appointed by the Committee on Standing Rules and Orders to look into the alleged death threats received by some Members of the MDC-T
Party.
The Committee on Standing Rules and Orders subsequently appointed a six Member Committee chaired by Hon. Senator Chief
Charumbira. The members of the Committee are:-
Hon. Sen. Chief Charumbira (Chairperson)
Hon. Chakona
Hon. Chimanikire
Hon. Mlilo
Hon. Mpariwa and
Hon. Ziyambi
2.0 TERMS OF REFERENCE
The Committee’s terms of reference were given as follows;
- To determine whether the said messages directly, indirectly or by inference constitute contempt of Parliament;
- To investigate the source of the alleged threatening messages; To make appropriate recommendations and report to the House by
31 March 2017.
The Committee began its work on the 5th of December, 2016.
- METHODOLOGY
- The Committee began by making announcements in both Houses on 25thJanuary and 7thFebruary, 2017 in the National Assembly and the Senate respectively, calling for Hon. Members who had received death threat messages to give evidence to the Committee on the threats received. Two Members indicated willingness to give evidence to the
Committee, i.e. Hon. Chibaya and Matienga.
The Committee invited Hon. Khupe to give evidence in her capacity as Leader of the Opposition in the National Assembly. Hon. Gonese was invited to give evidence as Chief Whip of MDC-T in the National Assembly and as the Committee subsequently discovered, he was also a recipient of death threat messages. Hon. Sen. Mlotshwa in her capacity as MDC-T chief Whip in the Senate, was invited to give evidence, but was unable to attend the meeting. Hon. Chamisa was also invited, but he too was unable to meet with the Committee. The Committee also called Mr. S. Madzore, who was a Member of Parliament but received similar SMSs after he was no longer in the service of Parliament. ZRP officials had indicated that he had reported receiving death threats as well.
- Assistance was sought from Mobile Network Operators (MNOs) i.e. NETONE and Econet. The objective of hearing oral evidence from them was to understand as much as possible how the kind of technology involved operates and whether it was possible to trace and therefore identify the culprit who had sent death threats to Honourable Members of Parliament. By the same token, the Committee invited POTRAZ to give oral evidence.
- Officials from the Zimbabwe Republic Police (ZRP) were invited to confirm to the Committee whether there were in fact reports of death threats and what progress, if any, had been made in apprehending the culprits of such an odious deed.
- Flowing from oral evidence received from officials from ZRP, who informed the Committee that complaints of death threat text messages were reported to the Police by some MPs as well as Mr. S. Madzore who was no longer an MP, the Committee decided to invite him to give oral evidence on the same.
- The Committee wrote to Econet, in terms of the Privileges, Immunities and Powers of Parliament Act, requesting that the offender(s) who sent death threat messages to Members of Parliament be traced. Econet had indicated during oral evidence that it had the capacity to do this, but that it could take about two months to accomplish.
- SUBMISSIONS BY THE COMPLAINANTS AND
VARIOUS STAKEHOLDERS
- Complainants
The Hon. Chibaya and Matienga showed Members of the Committee the text messages they received on the 5th of October, 2016 and the import of the messages was the same. Hon. Matienga received three messages, Hon. Chibaya seven and Hon. Gonese five. The senders of the messages reflected as ‘Hitman’ and ‘Death’, and not the name of a person or a number. Hon Chibaya and Gonese had also received similar messages in 2015, prior to the Official opening of Parliament. The messages read as follows:-
- “You may have a false immunity as a group but remember after that you will be alone again, you will be remembered for a few days after that you are history.
- Be reasonable as you think of what you intend to do in the august house. Your family is better ofF around you. Be severely warned.!!!!
- Don’t be used by those planning to demonstrate for their selfish ends, for they won’t be with you when the dark cloud of death engulfs you. We are trailing.
- I have killed many, if you want me to add your name on my death list, continue participating in tomorrow’s demo in Parliament.
- Am watching your steps 24/7, don’t try to be a hero. Be warned.
Your participation invites death at your doorstep.
- I have plenty of space to bury your corpse. Be warned, your involvement in tomorrow’s planned demo is a clear indication of joining your ancestors.
- Urikufa nemukadzi nevana Zimbabwendeyeropa (sic)”.
All the Hon. Members who received messages could not see the number of the sender. Where the number or name of the sender should have been, were the names ‘Hitman’ and ‘Death’. They could neither reply nor call the sender of the messages. Hon. Matienga and Chibaya still had the messages in their phones. Their cell phone lines were in basic phones. Those who received the messages on their smart phones could not retrieve them as they simply vanished from their cell phones after some time.
Hon. Khupe, the leader of the Opposition in the National Assembly informed the Committee that she encouraged MPs who had received the threatening messages to report to the police. The Speaker of the National Assembly also encouraged those who had received the messages to make police reports.
As a result of these threats, Hon. Members interviewed by the Committee all reported that the messages affected their contributions to debate in the House and in Parliamentary Committees adversely. They all reported that they feared for their lives and those of their families.
Each one of the Members who presented oral evidence to the Committee testified that after the messages, they were afraid that they were being watched or followed. Some said they had to change their usual routes and routines as security precautions.
4.2 Zimbabwe Republic Police (ZRP)
The Committee also heard oral submissions from ZRP officials who told the Committee that they received complaints of death threats from the Hon. Chamisa, Chibaya, Majome and Gonese in 2015. In 2016 Hon. Majome and another member of the MDC-T party made reports to the police with similar complaints of text messages containing death threats. It was submitted by the ZRP officials that investigating crimes of this nature takes time.
The Committee was informed that Detectives involved Postal and Telecommunications Regulating Authority (POTRAZ) because the crimes were cybercrimes. They also requested help from all licensed mobile network operators. Through provision of the law, they made applications to find out whether the criminal element went through these operators. It was found that they did not go through the usual cell phone operators. Instead, they used a short code -33284, which reflected as
‘Death’ and ‘Hitman’ to those who received it. The ZRP officers explained that if the short code had been operational in Zimbabwe, it should have been and would have been registered to someone in the country, but it was not registered with any of the licensed operators. ZRP further explained that short codes are usually used for promotions only and are allocated by POTRAZ. The person(s) who used the short code stole from POTRAZ because they hacked into the POTRAZ system and did not pay the fees due to the regulator.
The messages may have been generated in or outside Zimbabwe, either roaming or otherwise, ZRP officials could not be certain. ZRP went on further to say that POTRAZ has the capacity to determine where the SMSs came from, but had failed to do so. Hackers can by-pass POTRAZ and can use the short code which is then untraceable on the mobile network. The Police have not been able to identify the user of the short code because they lack cutting edge technology.
The Committee was informed that experts were working with
POTRAZ to identify the perpetrators. The ZRP officials advised the Committee that cybercrime is a new method of operation by criminals, and technology in Zimbabwe needs to be upgraded so that police can track such crimes in good time. To assure the Committee of the capacity and willingness to fight such crime, the police officials told of two cases involving cybercrime which they had successfully solved.
ZRP Officials emphasized that there must be trust between ZRP and complainants in order to solve crimes in good time. Trust in the police is eroded when people report crimes but do not get results.
4.3 Posts and Telecommunications Regulatory Authority in
Zimbabwe (POTRAZ)
After meeting ZRP officials who indicated that POTRAZ had the capacity to track down the sender(s) of the death threats, the Committee felt it prudent to interview POTRAZ officials. POTRAZ officials informed the Committee that the messages in question had been sent via the SMS platform and PORTAZ had engaged mobile phone operators to assist in tracing the origins of the SMSs. The Committee heard that if the messages had been sent from a locally registered number, it would have been easy to identify the source. However, bulky SMSs which are computer generated are a challenge because these do not have a centre number.
It was further explained that POTRAZ does not have a direct role in tracing the messages as these were resident in the archives of the service providers. Telecommunication companies are compelled by law to maintain a data record. They keep archives of where the messages originated from. It was further explained that one of POTRAZ’s mandates is to manage the national numbering plan as a way of identifying users and network operators. POTRAZ also facilitates promotions for cell phone line operators who are issued with three to five digit short codes.
POTRAZ informed the Committee that Bulk SMS providers computer generate messages which may appear as if they are from a cell phone, when they are not. Such messages are given a centre name e.g.
‘Hitman’. POTRAZ officials said that is called ‘spoofing’, where internet users can send messages to chosen numbers using whatever name they choose as a centre name. Most of these services are foreign based. POTRAZ assists network providers with lawful communication interception, to ensure compliance with legal licensing requirements.
POTRAZ further informed the Committee that the short code 33284 used to broadcast the threatening messages was not allocated by the regulator as its database indicates that it was not allocated to anyone. The Committee was also informed that short codes are not assigned on a permanent basis and that it was very difficult to trace the origins of a message sent from a computer. It was explained that in certain cases, the messages pass through many layers, thus complicating the task of locating the actual source, particularly where the message originates in a foreign jurisdiction.
4.4 NETONE
In giving evidence, NETONE officials indicated that as a general rule, they are not allowed to divulge subscriber / client information except in a case where the said subscriber / client uses their line for illegal activities. They informed the Committee that when an illegality has occurred, client details are only disclosed upon production of a court order by Police. However, the officials assured the Committee that if all the requirements were met, any messages received on their NETONE lines could be traced, as well as the location from which the messages were generated. They further explained that where an SMS originated from an international number, it is difficult to pinpoint the exact source of the message.
The NETONE officials explained that even though it is possible to pinpoint the country of origin of the message when the message has been sent through a cell phone, the opposite is true for a message generated from a computer and sent via the internet. They also explained that it is possible that the person(s) who sent the death threat messages may have used a cloned number. A cloned number is an international number reflecting as a local one. Certain technology is used to mirror a local number in order to bypass the billing system. This way, the call is billed as a local number. A caller identity can be hidden for calls but not text messages.
NETONE informed the Committee that ordinarily it does not listen in on conversations, unless there is an inquiry by state security on a matter of national security. This, however, does not mean they cannot, the volumes of phone calls are too high. Every mobile network operator has a switch, which can be used to listen into conversations, but is only accessible bypass word to security personnel. The Telecommunications
Act, does not allow them to intercept information between parties.
NETONE reported that it keeps a log of numbers of SMSs a mobile line sends out, but not the content. The SMS count helps to keep an account for billing purposes. The records are voluminous and take up a lot of space, this therefore means that there is a limited period of time that they can be kept.
4.5 Econet
Econet officials informed the Committee that it is possible to trace the source of messages sent to its network subscribers. Records that
Econet keeps can help track the second number and its country of origin.
The law requires that records be kept for up to eight years. Since Econet has many subscribers the records are in millions and it would take a long time to work through them to trace the messages in question. As previously explained by NETONE, Econet reiterated the fact that some SMSs are originated from computers, through the internet. The computer can access some device which can work like a cell phone or SMSC. It was explained that an SMSC is a machine which, before sending an SMS, analyses the address where the SMS is supposed to go, and then it delivers that SMS accordingly.
When an SMS is generated by a computer via the internet, the SMS can circumvent the network service provider. In the case of a message being sent from a computer on the Internet or from a server, the message will be sent directly to the customer. Econet is able to recognise that a number on its network received an SMS and the country of origin, but will not be able to identify the number from which the message was sent.
Where the identity of the sender has a name such as ‘hitman’, this would indicate that the messages most likely originated from a computer. If a message comes with a name which is not in one’s phonebook, this means that the message originated from a computer or a server. In terms of the law, information concerning subscribers, can only be divulged to entities or institutions specified by law such as the police carrying out their investigations of criminal activities. The police have to produce a warrant of search and seizure in order to compel the mobile network operator before they can search through their network.
- Econet only keeps a record which shows that a particular number sent a message to a certain number, but not the actual content of the message.
The information is easy to retrieve within 60 days, after that, it goes to the archives. The recovery of such a record after two months is a long and cumbersome process which could take up to a month or longer. The Committee wrote to Econet on the 20th of April 2017, requesting that the source of the death threats be traced and no response has yet been received.
5.0 The Committee’s Findings
5.1 POTRAZ’s control and monitoring systems are very weak, it emerged during their submissions that they do not have a direct role in tracing the messages as these are resident in the archives of service providers. It is the service providers who keep the archives of where the messages originated from. However, in this instance none of the service providers could trace the origins of the messages.
5.2 The Committee also found that Bulk SMS senders computer generate messages which may appear as if they are from a cell phone, when they are not, and messages sent via the computer are very difficult to trace. Most of such services are foreign based, which is the most likely scenario in this instance because the short code 33284 used to broadcast the threatening messages was not allocated by the regulator.
5.3 The Committee also noted that even though the messages were sent to Econet lines, Econet could not establish the origins because the messages were not sent directly from a mobile cell phone, but probably a computer, through the internet.
5.4 The committee found that despite the identity of the culprits not being known, the act of sending threats of any kind to a Member of Parliament is criminal and contemptuous of the August House. Even if the reason for threatening or inducing fear is not clearly stated, such will be attributed to the conduct of the Member in Parliament or its
Committees.
5.5 All the above findings revealed that the country does not have the capacity, technologically and legally to combat such intrusions through the use of information communication technology systems. POTRAZ should be taking a proactive role in lobbying for technological evolution.
6.0 Discharge of Mandate
6.1 To investigate the source of the alleged threatening messages
The Committee made its investigations to find the source of the alleged threatening messages using all the possible avenues and could not determine the source of the death threat messages. The messages were sent to Econet lines, but Econet could not establish the origins because the messages were not sent directly from a mobile cell phone, but probably a computer, through the internet. The mandate of the
Committee was to investigate the source of the alleged threatening messages and the Committee established that death threat messages were indeed sent, but could not establish who the sender was.
6.2 To determine whether the said messages directly, indirectly or by Inference constitute contempt of Parliament.
The Privileges, Immunities and Powers of Parliament Act (Chapter
2:08) (PIPPA)paragraph 13 provides that, “Making any oral or written threat to a Member or challenging him to fight on account of his conduct in Parliament or a Committee” constitutes contempt of Parliament.
According to Erskine May 1 “contempt of Parliament” is “any act or omission which obstructs or impedes either House of Parliament in performance of its functions, or which obstructs or impedes any member or officer of such House in the discharge of his duty, or which has a tendency, directly or indirectly, to produce such results which may be treated as a contempt even though there is no precedent of the offence. The definition of Contempt of Parliament as provided for in the PIPPA was confirmed by the Court in the case of Roy Leslie Bennet v
Emmerson Mnangagwa (in his capacity as Speaker of Parliament).
The act of sending death threat messages to a Member of Parliament constitutes contempt of Parliament and is an offence at law.The nature of the threats or intimidation must directly affect the member and negatively impact on his/ her duties as a Member of Parliament. The Oral evidence presented before the Committee clearly showed that the death threat messages were aimed at hindering Members in the discharge of their mandate in Parliament. The principle of
Parliamentary privilege includes the right of a Member to discharge his
/her responsibilities free from threats and intimidation from other
Members of the House or from any person.
7.0 Recommendations
7.1 There is need to improve technology in the telecommunications sector in order to effectively combat cybercrimes. Ministry of Information, Communication Technology, Postal and
Courier Services, in conjunction with Ministry of Finance and Economic Development should make budgetary provisions for technology development in the 2018 budget.
7.2 There is need to expedite the process of bringing into the operation of the Cybercrimes Bill, which should establish a Cyber Security Office, a Cyber-Crime Special Unit and a Ministerial Committee to deal with cyber-crimes. The Bill should be introduced in
Parliament by September, 2017.
7.3 The Postal and Telecommunications Act must also be amended to reflect the technological changes around the globe and render certain actions as unlawful, for example in the matter before the Committee, the culprit unlawfully accessed the system. A bill proposing amendments to the Postal and Telecommunications Act must be brought to Parliament before the end of 2017.
7.4 There is need for legislation or bi-lateral agreements which enable the ease of access of information beyond the Zimbabwean borders. This is essential for the facilitation of cooperation between the police and prosecuting authorities in different countries. Ministry of Information, Communication Technology, Postal and Courier Services should facilitate this by December, 2017.
7.5 Parliament should by resolution of the whole House exhort the Commissioner General of Police to lead the investigation and finalisation of this matter. ZRP should report progress to Parliament by end of October 2017.
7.0 Conclusion
7.1 The Committee condemns any conduct whose aim is to undermine the lawful performance of Members of Parliament or citizens. Such conduct is an anachronism in a civilised society and undermines democracy.
7.2. The complaints in question revolved around information communication technology systems. The lack of proper technological and legislative mechanisms to combat such crimes was clearly apparent in this case. It is the Committee’s view that mechanisms be put in place to ensure that proper controls and legislative frameworks be put in place to curtail such incidents.
7.3. The Committee condemns any conduct whose objective is to undermine the lawful performance of Members of Parliament. Such conduct is an anachronism in a civilised society and it undermines democracy. I so submit Mr. Speaker Sir. I thank you.
HON. CHIMANIKIRE: Thank you Mr. Speaker. Firstly, I would like to thank the Chairman of the Privileges Committee, Hon. Sen. Chief Charumbira and I would also want to thank the other members of the Privileges Committee with whom we worked together. At first, the impression was that it was going to be a very quick exercise but that was not to be. When we first met, our arguments were more academic around the issue of Contempt of Parliament or no Contempt of Parliament.
However, we soon realised under the guidance of the Chairman that we had to use various methodologies that would ensure us achieving the objective of finding out who the culprit was. It was a bit disheartening that when we announced in both the National Assembly and Senate, the response from the affected members was rather luke warm. In fact we had only two Hon. Members of Parliament responding, it was Hon. Chibaya and Hon. Matienga but later on we had to devise ways and means of ensuring that we had a widespread consultative process which we then undertook which involved also calling in the police and the various service providers cell phone operations.
Mr. Speaker, we even worked when Parliament was not in session to ensure that we would be able to cover as much ground as possible. In some instances, some Members of Parliament had their spouses threatened. I will quote Hon. Chibaya as messages were also sent to his wife. Other than the Hon. Member of Parliament, his wife was also receiving the messages. So you can imagine Mr. Speaker the amount of trauma that this brings to a family when both husband and wife are being threatened over the job of a Member of Parliament who is the husband.
Mr. Speaker, it is sad that this kind of mentality was found within our own communities to try and threaten Members of Parliament who have a mandate to represent their constituencies without fear or farvour.
I have a personal experience that I take out of the lesson of such actions that were taken. I visited Rio de Jenairo in 2004 to attend an international conference and next to the hotel that I was staying in were armoured vehicles, tanks as well as police and army who were actually donning semi-automatic weapons. When I enquired as to what was going on because I thought maybe the Brazilian President was staying in that hotel. I was then informed that these soldiers and police were guarding Members of Parliament, actually Members of Parliament were staying in that hotel. On further enquiries as to why Members of Parliament had to be guarded in Brazil? It was revealed that gangsters who trade in drugs were kidnapping Members of Parliament, holding their families to ransom and forcing the Members of Parliament to pass legislation that was in favour of less controls on drug trading in Brazil.
So Mr. Speaker, when one reads into these messages that are coming from whoever is called ‘Death’, - [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible
interjections.] –
THE TEMPORARY SPEAKER (HON. MUTOMBA): Order,
order, less noise please.
HON. CHIMANIKIRE: When one reads into the messages that were being sent to members of the MDC-T Parliamentary Caucus. One would look at a situation where it got worse in Brazil until they had to be guarding hotels where Members of Parliament were staying to avoid gangsters influencing proceedings in Parliament, which is sad.
Mr. Speaker, we hope our recommendations are very clear. They are very clear in the sense that Zimbabwe has not adequately prepared itself for cyber crime fighting. So, it is important that within the deadlines that we have put as a Committee, the Minister responsible for funding, Hon. Chinamasa must ensure that he puts into place mechanisms and infrastructure for fighting cyber crime.
I remember Hon. Chamisa when he was the Minister of ICT, he had made several proposals towards this goal but nothing occurred in the last five years. It will be sad that if you do not prepare to fight cyber crime, we will be caught with our pants down and victims will be ourselves and our families across the political divide. Mr. Speaker, it is misguided elements seeking to adulterate what I would call the democratic dispensation in this country that would actually take such an initiative. However, as a Committee Mr. Speaker, we unanimously agreed on our recommendations and we have put them before this House for adoption. I thank you Mr. Speaker.
HON. CHAKONA: Thank you very much Mr. Speaker. I just
want to clarify a few things with regards to the report. Firstly, I would like to thank our Chairperson, Hon. Sen. Charumbira for leading the investigations professionally and also with so much vigor. I want to explain that the SMSs have been classified under cyber crime.
Throughout the world, cyber crime has been very difficult to detect even in instances where money is involved. I would want to give you an example. In the United States, as far back as 2002, cyber crime resulted in more than US$54 million being lost in the financial services sector. By 2008, over US$1 billion was actually siphoned out of financial institutions. Out of all this money, nothing was recovered, which actually goes to prove that cyber crime is very difficult to detect.
Mr. Speaker, as far back as 1994, cyber crime already existed and one such person was a guy in Russia who moved US$10 million to different banks throughout the world. That money was difficult to recover. This guy was called Leven. He moved the money to different banks and it was never recovered.
I would also want to say as far back as 1950, there was cyber crime and in this case it was basically subjected to a virus. It was spread at an institution when a student who was researching sent this replicated virus and it affected a number of machines. Mr. Speaker, the point I am trying to drive is that cyber crime throughout the world has never been traced and it is difficult to detect the source of cyber crime. We also have things like child pornography, which is actually prevalent and is taking place in our houses. Children are watching pornography in very sophisticated ways. It has been distributed to children in sophisticated ways. What it goes to prove is that cyber crime is difficult to detect and also to get to the source of the crime.
In this instance, the crime was perpetrated through what we could say an internet protocol generated message. It is easy to change the source and the characters of a message, especially when it is being generated from a computer using what we call IP. As I speak, in Zimbabwe in order to try and reduce the amount of cyber crime, the ICT sector in Zimbabwe has been trying to improve the internet protocols by basically moving from version 4 to version 6. Hopefully, by the end of this upgrade, things will improve. Mr. Speaker, I have tried to explain that the reason behind the Committee failing to get to the source of the problem is because cyber crime is difficult to trace and to get to the source. I thank you.
HON. MANDIPAKA: Thank you Mr. Speaker. I just want to be brief but let me congratulate the Speaker of the National Assembly for having directed that a Committee be set up to investigate the threats. Mr. Speaker, I take notice that the Committee that was set up, technically could not have been able to establish the source. Why do I say so? Like what Hon. Chakona has stated, cyber crime the world over is presenting some very big challenges and for Zimbabwe, this is a wakeup call for our security agencies to be on the alert on this very sophisticated nature of criminal activity happening in our communities. Having said that Mr. Speaker, let me also challenge the Zimbabwe Republic Police and other state agencies that provide security to be on the alert for such kinds of criminal activities that are on the increase.
Mr. Speaker, an investigation of this nature which was done established no results at all. So, we are just debating for the sake of record in this august House but the results that we would have wanted could not be ascertained due to the nature and complexity of how this criminal activity was perpetrated. I heard the Chairperson of the Committee state that they have every reason also to suspect that the messages could not have been originated within; the messages could have been originated without. So, it makes it very difficult, very complicated, not only for this Committee but even for the Police to come out with the source and the suspect. If we were in Police circles, we would say this docket in the interim can be closed. I thank you Mr.
Speaker.
HON. MAJOME: I thank you Mr. Speaker Sir for allowing me to debate this motion. As one of the Members of Parliament of this House who received these death threats, I want to thank the Committee for looking into this matter but I wish to express my dismay that in my very respectful view, I think the Committee would have been able to get more information if it had actually talked to those Members of Parliament who received these threats. They would have gotten more information because other dimensions of this matter were not looked at.
Unfortunately, I personally was not invited by the Committee and I will say that I am concerned Mr. Speaker Sir that Members of Parliament can be threatened.
Firstly, I think it is a shame that this Committee was only tasked to do this investigation only the second time that a second wave of messages came. In 2015, Members of Parliament including myself were threatened and Parliament did not even bet an eyelid, no sleep or nothing was lost. It reflects badly on this Parliament in the international arena. You will note that the Inter-Parliamentary Union has a Committee whose role is to protect the human rights of Members of Parliament.
When a Member of Parliament such as myself is elected, I am entitled in terms of Section 67 of the Constitution to hold office. When I receive a death threat, that threatens me in connection with my sitting in this House and that also threatens my family members. In my case, my son who was 13 years old and then 14 years old also received these death threats. It interferes alongside other Hon. Members who had also other family members who were threatened. Coincidentally, we were threatened in connection with the visit of His Excellency the President to this Parliament. I can only ask myself why these particular threats were received only on the occasion when His Excellency was to come and address Parliament.
Mr. Speaker Sir, I think it invites all sorts of very uncomfortable and unpalatable conclusions. It therefore means that even the Zimbabwe Republic Police who are tasked to handle such issues did not handle the case properly. I am saying it is a shame and an indictment of this Parliament that it did not care at all when the first batch of death threats were received by Hon. Members in 2015 and that it took Parliament a very leisurely year for them to then do this investigation when the second batch of Members of Parliament were threatened.
With respect to the Committee, I thank them for the work that they did because it was clearly not easy. I would have hoped that they would have taken the trouble to also speak to the Hon. Members who were threatened which is including me. I do not recall ever receiving a request for me to furnish information as to the threat that I got and its effects. I am particularly concerned because in the first round, my son who was 13 years old and the next time around he was 14 years old, also received the same threat that I believe was meant for me.
I would have wanted the Committee to show somewhat their findings in connection with the coincidence of the timing of the death threats. I would have wanted them to explain what they found in relation to the question as to why is it that those death threats were only ever received coincidentally on the occasion when His Excellency the President would be coming to this House. Those death threats have not been received and surely, this Committee must investigate the link and be able to indicate that.
Also in relation to that, the Zimbabwe Republic Police with respect are just not interested in this matter. When I personally reported to the police, they were simply not interested. On the first report, I got one of those usual outcome of reports received that this matter is under investigation and that we shall tell you if anything else has come up. This happened two years ago. They also indicated to me that they were not able to find out who would have done this because as was reported by the Committee, the identity of the centres of the first message was death and in the second batch it was hit man. They said they could not do anything about it.
So, it comes to me as a surprise because in my report to the police, they asked me as to whom I suspected had done this. I told them that I suspect that it is the State security agents who sent those threats. The police behaviour in refusing to find out - they did not even want to go to Potraz. I am surprised that when the Select Committee investigating this asked them, that is when they started to go to Potraz and ask information providers. But, when the police refused to do that, it only strengthens my suspicion that it is someone who is connected to the State apparatus that is able to do that. I think they have every duty to make sure that they investigate and exonerate and refute that suspicion because it is a valid suspicion.
Mr. Speaker Sir, I want to also say that I was dismayed and unless
I did not hear correctly, it seems to me as if the Committee only asked
ECONET and NetOne. I do not know why they did not go and ask Telecel Zimbabwe because some of the threats including the one that I got to the number that was sent to my son, it was from Telecel. I believe that they should leave no stone unturned in finding out what it is going on. I am concerned that I seem to hear a slant in the report about cyber crime and its sophistication but I did not hear sufficient accent on the need to protect Members of Parliament in executing their duties.
It seems to me that the issue has now become one of lamenting how cyber crime is so difficult and that we must tighten cyber crime investigations. I am concerned that instead of taking measures to protect Hon. Members of Parliament from expressing and enjoying their political conscience, this report is going to be abused to actually tighten and curtail freedom of speech and access to information in Zimbabwe by saying that if the Cyber Crime Bill comes, everything will be fine.
Mr. Speaker Sir, with respect, I think that is to lose the plot. I would as one of the people who were threatened together with my son, like to see this Parliament being more concerned about the safety and the security of Members of Parliament. I hope that it would make recommendations that look at how this Parliament can do everything it can to ensure that Members of Parliament are able to participate in this House and outside with the utmost of freedom, the utmost of security and representing their constituencies.
I am also concerned that this lack of interest in the security of
Members of Parliament is the culture that is so rampant in this
Parliament. I say that because it is seen even in other respects. If you just look at the equipment that Parliament uses. The bus of Parliament for example, there are no seat belts. If a Member of Parliament were to crush in that bus, they would all perish and die. The other day the two tyres of the bus exploded on one tour of public hearings. What kind of a Parliament is it that does not seem to care? If you ask whether there is any insurance either for risk injury or even for life insurance of Members of Parliament if they are injured or killed in the conduct of their duties, there is none Mr. Speaker Sir.
So, I would have wanted this Committee to look at those issues and ensure that the security and the safety of Members of Parliament is looked after. It is well when no one has lost their lives, but if somebody sends you a death threat and tells you that they are going to kill you and that you are only useful when you are in that Parliament, when you come out of there, you will become an ordinary person. Watch out and I am going to kill you and bury your body. It is not a joke. It requires this Parliament to take those measures.
It also goes with the attitude of this Parliament, the administration to take the safety of Members of Parliament when Parliament
Committees are conducting public hearings. I have been assaulted when
I was chairing the Portfolio Committee on Justice in Mutare at
Dangamvura Hall. Parliament has done absolutely nothing. Instead, I get sniggers from some members of staff at this Parliament at the senior level who are sniggering in a very sarcastic manner about it that,
‘Parliament does not take any action to ensure that there is security, police and so on.’ Mr. Speaker Sir, I am not surprised that the police would say, ‘we do not know what we can do,’ because even now, there has been no report from Dangamvura Police Station to tell me who it is and find out people who assaulted me and other Members, when there was video evidence. The police simply do not want to investigate and my suspicion is that it is because they know exactly who it is who sent these messages.
I am also surprised that they can say that all these messages are from outside the country. Why can the Zimbabwe Republic Police (ZRP) and the Central Intelligence Organisation (CIO) not use their expertise because they are extremely good at snooping around and finding out everybody? Why can they not deploy that expertise and interest in protecting Members of an arm of Government, this august House? Why were they not involved in the investigations. Surely, we saw even the police going as far as Silicon Valley when they were investigating about; I think it was something about Baba Jukwa and so on.
In this particular case, are we telling ourselves that we are so backward. I think it is embarrassing that the police will be content to say, ‘we cannot find this,’ even the Post and Telecommunications Regulation Authority (POTRAZ), how does it justify its existence if it does not have the technology to secure. It cannot tell me that because it is coming from a computer and they cannot find out what it is. We cannot hide behind the non-passage of the Cyber Bill to refuse to deal with an issue of intimidation. The more the police refuse to take measures to investigate and the CIO to also investigate, personally my resolve and suspicion is that it is the State apparatus who sent those threats; it is further resolved. The CIO was not at all involved. Is it because it was already known that they are the ones who sent those death threats? Surely, they must clear their name, they must show that it is not them and must find whoever it is who sent those messages.
I would want the Committee to make recommendations about improving the security and safety of Members of Parliament. Members of Parliament might snigger but today it is us, but with the volatility of even party politics today, some of them might find that they are on the wrong side of whatever faction and it might be you tomorrow. So, it is in the interest of every Member of Parliament, that Parliament invests in the security of Members of Parliament and finds this.
If I do not get any joy, I am going to file a complaint to the Inter Parliamentary Union. If Parliament of Zimbabwe cannot protect my human rights as a citizen and an office bearer, I will have to go to the international fora and file a report with the Human Rights Committee of the Inter Parliamentary Union. I was going to do that but I said, let me give a chance to this - finally this Parliament in one to two years later had decided to investigate, let me give it a chance, but so far I am not getting any comfort or joy. Without that Mr. Speaker Sir, I think we are left to our own devices. Let us please do something drastic and concrete about the security and safety of Members of Parliament. Yes, only the opposition was threatened, but as I said, tomorrow who knows what is happening in the politics of factions in this country, it might be those who think that they are very safe. I thank you Mr. Speaker.
HON. ZIYAMBI: Thank you Mr. Speaker Sir. I rise to debate on our Report, being one of those who were in the Committee. I just want to make a few clarifications. Mr. Speaker, our Committee was mandated to determine whether the messages directly, indirectly or by inference constitute Contempt of Parliament. That is what we were supposed to look at and also to investigate the source of the alleged messages and make a recommendation. This was when Hon. Chamisa had notified the House that he received these messages and implored the Speaker to set up a Committee to do that. No other Member had done
that.
When this happened, it was because one Hon. Member had come forward to say, this is what happened to me. So, it would be very unfair on the Committee to say that, ‘why did they not investigate something that was not within the terms and references of what they were supposed to do. When we gave our report, we indicated that it was indeed Contempt of Parliament and by sending those messages one will be inducing a certain level of fear on the Hon. Members to the extent that they will not be able to discharge their duties. Then, when somebody says that the Committee did not do enough; we investigated, we determined that this was not correct and even went further to say that this is cyber crime. We could not even identify the source of that message. So, it was not within our purview to name call and say that this or that department was responsible for sending a message when we could not determine it.
We made our recommendations and investigations. We could not even investigate what happened outside the purview of the messages or what happened at public interviews, that was not our brief. What we were supposed to investigate was whether these messages constituted Contempt of Parliament. I think when we are debating and apportioning blame on us for not having done our duty, we should narrow it to the terms and references which we were given to do our job, which is what our Hon. Chair, Hon. Chief Charumbira has done, to present a report on the findings. Hon. Chimanikire even alluded to the fact that we debated and argued but in the end we agreed on a working platform on what we were supposed to do. I think as a Committee, we have made recommendations that would ensure that the culprits who sent such messages can be nabbed. I believe that our report was fair and balanced and it is one of the best reports that we have produced. I thank you.
HON. MISIHAIRABWI- MUSHONGA: Thank you very much
Mr. Speaker Sir. I will not take long. I think it is important that we are clear about what we intend to do with this Report. I got something that says; it is a ‘Take Note Report.’ To me, it is just something that is being given to the House but with no specific resolutions of where we go from here. I find that problematic from the Committee’s point of view, moreso, because it is something that is talking about the protection of Members of Parliament. Yes, the terms of reference may simply have been to see whether there was a Contempt of Parliament, but one would think that it is common sense that beyond establishing that fact, you then say as a Committee, what needs to be done?
What I thought I heard from Hon. Majome was to say, we need to speak beyond this particular position. For your own information, Hon. Majome is talking about the future and saying some people may find themselves in trouble. We have actually seen it here Mr. Speaker Sir. We have a ruling that you are supposed to be making over a Member who threatened another Member in this very House. So, this issue of violence is problematic in a number of ways. If we are going to be going out there and telling people that violence is wrong and yet in this Parliament itself, people out there believe that Members of Parliament are not safe, why would anybody else who is a basic citizen believe that they are safe to make any political choice they need to make? That is how fundamental this particular discussion we are having is.
Mr. Speaker Sir, I would have thought that beyond being a Take
Note Report, the Committee would have said, ‘Having observed the following, we are therefore setting a Committee that will begin to look at what it is that Parliament needs to do to ensure that this does not happen again.’ I did not hear that. What is there that will stop this person from sending other death threats, that it was debated in this House or that there was a discussion about it? If I am a person who intimidates and threatens people, this is just a joke. So they sat, met as a Committee and said we cannot get the people who sent it; it is probably some internetbased process of some kind. The next time, I will do exactly the same and as usual and speaking as a woman, violence exists where there is secrecy. If a man wants to beat up their wife, they do it in secret; they do it in darkness. So, what we have basically done with this report unfortunately, is to confirm that you can continuously do this as long as you do it under the cover of darkness. Whereas, that cover of darkness is purportedly being said, internet is another thing. So, I am not getting it and it is unfortunate Mr. Speaker, that even as people stand up, this is not about to who the death threats were sent. It is not about MDC-T, but it is about the principle and the position that we ourselves are going to be taking in this very House.
Like I am saying, speaking as a woman, I have gone to these public hearings. Mr. Speaker, there were public hearings in which people were almost assaulted or were assaulted in the case of Hon. Jessie Majome. Even the environment – you are sitting there and you are saying to yourselves, it just takes somebody to be holding bottles to throw them at you and you are gone. It takes somebody coming up with a knife to knife you and you are gone. What is Parliament going to be doing to ensure that we do not have those kinds of incidents?
So, to have a Committee that will just be so, sorry to use the word, almost ‘myopic’ to say this is the window that we are going to look and not to look at the broader issues that this thing is bringing up, I think it is problematic. I was actually exited because I thought that this was an opportunity for the Committee to actually come up and say this is what we are going to be doing; but beyond Parliament this is what we are going to be doing in communities to make sure that the issues of violence do not take place. How do we deal with the intelligence issues and make sure that they themselves are agencies that protect and not themselves become perpetrators of violence?
That is the debate that I expected us to have here and I must say that I am very disappointed that we set aside the better part of this afternoon – many of us would have thought that we are about to adjourn and let us go to our homes. However, the reason why we are still sitting here is because we were hoping against hope, that this is a report that was going to be revolutionary to change the way that business is done in and outside Parliament.
I must say I am very disappointed that it is not. Like I said, I am disappointed that it is just a take-note motion. So really, whether you speak to it or you do not, it really does not matter. So, I have just stood; up to raise my frustrations at the report. I thank you.
HON. NDUNA: Thank you Mr. Speaker Sir. I will not take much
of your time. I just want to say the tabling of this report is a start of greater things. Beyond that, I want to say Members of this Parliament are well travelled and if we equate our Speaker to some of the Speakers around other jurisdictions, certainly there is not much protection given to our Speaker, first and foremost. You are in the Speaker’s Panel; I speak about you as well and to this issue.
Mr. Speaker Sir, at some point we went as a Committee on African Parliamentarians Network Against Corruption (APNAC) to Indonesia and the way we are protected in other jurisdictions or the way we were protected there, including Yours Truly, it is certainly out of this world. So, that should also come into this jurisdiction in terms of protection for you as a person and for you also - to have at least a lead car so that you can have your car protected from any harm Mr. Speaker. We also went as African Parliamentarians’ Network on Development Evaluation (APNODE) to Sudan and the way we were protected there is out of this world. I call also for protection of Members of Parliament in the same vein within our own borders.
Having said that Mr. Speaker Sir, I want to go beyond the protection of our person to our automobiles. There are more than 20 000 automobiles or Governement vehicles in this country but they do not have insurance. So beyond an accident, you are not covered, because you also drive one of those vehicles that is not insured and a
Government vehicle.
Mr. Speaker Sir, seeing that the Minister of Finance and Economic Planning is here, I ask for him to make a deliberate move to ensure that all Government vehicles - and that is beyond Parliamentarians, it also speaks to him as an Executive Member and as a Member of
Government; that they get to be protected beyond them being Members of Parliament, but also in the Executive so that they can be insured in those automobiles.
Mr. Speaker Sir, I want to take this opportunity to thank you for giving me this time to eloquently, vociferously, effectively and efficiently air out my views on this report. Thank you.
HON. HOLDER: Thank you Mr. Speaker Sir for giving me this
opportunity just to contribute and congratulate the panel that Hon. Sen. Chief Charumbira has presented to this House today. Mr. Speaker Sir, as a Member of Parliament, I do understand the need for us to be protected. It is so sad that people go so low with intent to threaten individuals. Mr. Speaker, I suffered the same sort of problem when I first entered Parliaments. The reason why I say that is because, sometimes most of these issues come from most probably our neighbourhoods or our backgrounds where we come from. It is sad to note that Hon. Members of Parliament have lost faith in the security system in our country. I want to say, there is only so much that the security system can do.
If you look at it in my way of looking at things, there is peace in our country and this is why you find that there are a lot of investors and interest of people coming to our country. This Panel that made the report has made a report because it has got to where it has realised that there is only so much that they could do. When I was being haunted, followed and sent messages, I only found out that the service provider is the only one who is able to trace where these messages are coming from.
They can trace to the repeater; they can trace whether it is a computer; they can trace whether it is a cellphone and they can trace in different sorts of ways. With the technology that is still being introduced into our system, things are taking a bit of time. It is a bit slow but you will find that our police and our intelligence organisation do not have the capacity to trace exactly where the messages are coming from and it is a sad note. I think we need to look into that, where we can get the country to invest into situations like that because every time a Member of Parliament is threatened or every time a Member of Parliament receives a death threat, something happens, it costs the country a lot of money. It is the taxpayer’s money Mr. Speaker.
I only wanted to say to the Committee that they have done their best and I would like to thank Hon. Sen. Chief Charumbira for the report. He is not the investigating officer but they are looking into the issues of all the angles and channels that are supposed to be looked into. Mr. Speaker Sir, I feel for our Hon. Members of Parliament who have been threatened. It is a sad note and when we look at it, this should not be allowed in this country. I think the sooner the Cyber Crime Bill comes to Parliament, the better it is that we debate and pass a law so that at least our Hon. Members of Parliament feel safe. It is wrong for us to blame because we have not managed to get to the bottom of it. I thank you.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE AND ECONOMIC
DEVELOPMENT (HON. CHINAMASA): I move that the debate do
now adjourn.
Motion put and agreed to.
Debate to resume: Tuesday, 1st August, 2017.
MOTION
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
HON. CHINAMASA: I understand that the next item is Order Number 7, which again is a matter of privilege. The Speaker wanted it presented today. So, if we could proceed Mr. Speaker Sir.
Motion put and agreed to.
MOTION
REPORT OF THE PRIVILEGES COMMITTEE ON THE
ALLEGED CONTEMPT OF PARLIAMENT BY MR C. KUWAZA
HON. KAZEMBE: I move the motion standing in my name: That this House takes note of the Report of the Privileges Committee on the alleged contempt of Parliament by Mr. C. Kuwaza.
HON. TOFFA: I second.
HON. KAZEMBE: The Privileges Committee was appointed on
the 17th of May 2016 to investigate the alleged contempt of Parliament by the late Mr. C. Kuwaza when he appeared twice before the Mines and
Energy Portfolio Committee. The following Hon Members were nominated to serve on the Privileges Committee; Hon Kazembe K. as
Chairperson; Hon Chasi F., Hon Sen Mutsvangwa M., Hon Toffa J.,
Hon Chamisa N., and Hon Majome J.
2.0 TERMS OF REFERENCE OF PRIVILEGES COMMITTEES
The terms of reference of the Committee were as follows;
2.1 To establish whether the conduct by the late Mr. C. Kuwaza constitutes contempt of Parliament;
2.2 To determine whether the alleged misrepresentation impaired the work of the Committee in the discharge of its constitutional mandate;
2.3 To determine whether the conduct or the statements attributed to the late Mr. C. Kuwaza directly, indirectly or by inference constitute contempt of Parliament; and
2.4 To make appropriate recommendations and report to the
House by the 30th of October, 2016.
3.0 BACKGROUND
The Committee on Mines and Energy, referred to as the Committee in this section, conducted an inquiry into the tendering system of the electricity sector projects and invited the late Mr. Charles Kuwaza, the then Executive Chairperson of the State Procurement Board, to a meeting to provide oral evidence. The meeting sought to gather pertinent facts on the operations of the State Procurement Board in respect of the electricity sector projects. The late Mr. C. Kuwaza was given a notice period of more than 14 days to prepare for the meeting and subsequently met the Committee on the 30th June 2015. The Committee also included in the invitation letter, questions to be asked in the meeting. During the meeting, the late Mr. C. Kuwaza failed to satisfactorily respond to the questions raised by the Committee on the tendering system by the State Procurement Board, in spite of him being notified of the purpose of the meeting more than 14 days prior to the meeting. This led to the postponement of the meeting in order to give the late Mr. Kuwaza sufficient time to prepare.
The Committee held its second meeting with the late Mr C.
Kuwaza on the 6th July, 2015. When asked whether he had brought written responses to the sets of questions that had been brought to his attention, the late Mr. Kuwaza contended that he had sent a set of answers via email to the Committee Clerk. The late Mr. Kuwaza, for the second time, failed to answer the questions to the satisfaction of the
Members of the Committee. The Committee asked the late Mr Kuwaza to respond to the questions orally but the late Mr. Kuwaza referred the committee to the email sent to the Committee Clerk. Members of the Committee took turns to impress upon the late Mr. Kuwaza that it was important for him to provide the sought answers, but all efforts were in vain. The late Mr. Kuwaza allegedly became abusive and at one point suggested that there was no order in the committee.
4.0 METHODOLOGY
To have an appreciation of what actually transpired during the meetings held by the Portfolio Committee on Mines and Energy, the Privileges Committee listened to the two audio recordings of the oral evidence sessions and considered the available documentary evidence. The documentary evidence consisted of emails, letters and minutes of meetings held by the Mines and Energy Committee. Furthermore, the Privileges Committee received oral evidence from the following witnesses; Hon L. Matuke, Hon S. Mudarikwa, Hon B. Majaya, Hon W. Musvaire, Hon P. Mutseyami. The late Mr. Kuwaza though invited, did not turn up to give evidence.
5.0 FINDINGS AND CHALLENGES
After listening to the audio recordings of the oral sessions and considering the documentary evidence before it, the Privileges
Committee resolved that there was a prima facie case against the late Mr. C. Kuwaza. The six witnesses that testified were consistent that the late Mr. C. Kuwaza’s conduct was disrespectful of Parliament and impaired the work of the Committee of Mines and Energy.
In order to conduct the enquiry through a procedure that is fair, reasonable and that conforms to the dictates of the Constitution in particular, section 68 of the Constitution, the Privileges Committee resolved to give the late Mr. Kuwaza, who was the key witness, an opportunity to give evidence before the Committee. Section 68 of the
Constitution states that;
“Every person has a right to administrative conduct that is lawful, prompt, efficient, reasonable, proportionate, impartial and both substantively and procedurally fair”.
The Privileges Committee, referred to as the Committee in this section, made several efforts to invite the late Mr. Kuwaza to give evidence and twice asked for an extension of the deadline by which to conclude the case. The Committee faced the following challenges:
- On two separate occasions, the late Mr. Kuwaza refused to acknowledge receipt of invitations to meet the Committee;
- The late Mr. Kuwaza then refused to receive or acknowledge the summons that the Committee had served him;
- The late Mr. Kuwaza suddenly fell ill and became hospitalized.
His lawyers acknowledged receipt of the summons and
requested the Committee to excuse the late Mr. Kuwaza until he was well;
- The late Mr. Kuwaza’s lawyers later advised the Committee that the late Mr. Kuwaza would not be able attend the Privileges Committee meetings on medical grounds.
- There was no meaningful progress made from October, 2016 to April, 2017 as exchanges of letters between Parliament and the late Mr. Kuwaza’s lawyers continued relentlessly until the unfortunate incident that led to the death of Mr Kuwaza on
Tuesday, 18th April, 2017.
6.0 OBSERVATIONS OF THE COMMITTEE
- The late Mr. Kuwaza could have taken advantage of weak parliamentary procedures and deliberately made it difficult to have summons served on him. The Committee, therefore, could not conclude the inquiry without according him an opportunity to give evidence.
- Parliament procedures do not confer adequate powers to the Privileges Committee to enable it to execute or conclude its inquiry in cases where an individual refuses to appear before the Committee without justifiable cause. Possible contempt charges could have been established by the Committee in time. The alleged conduct by the late Mr. Kuwaza violated paragraph 4 of the
Schedule to the Privileges, Immunities and Powers of Parliament Act [Chapter 2:08] which provides for a charge of, “Prevarication or other misconduct as a witness before Parliament or a committee”.
- Witnesses called to give evidence could not remember the minute details of what had transpired due to the time lapse between the dates of the of the meetings in question and the date the Privileges Committee was appointed. The last of the meetings in question took place on of 6th July, 2015 and the Committee was appointed on the 17th May, 2016.
7.0 RECOMMENDATIONS
Given the challenges outlined above and the observations of the Committee regarding the omissions in the Parliamentary procedures concerning summons, the Privileges Committee recommends that;
- The CSRO urgently deliberate on possible amendments to the Privileges Immunities and Powers of Parliament Act (Chapter 2:
08).
- The Committee also recommends that the appointment and setting up of a Privileges Committee should be done as early as possible to avoid delays in concluding inquiries and loss of evidence due to memory lapse.
8.0 CONCLUSION
The Committee could not conclude the case without hearing evidence from the key witness. After the passing on of Mr. C. Kuwaza, the Committee resolved to close the case. May his soul rest in peace. Mr.
Speaker Sir, I now commend this report for consideration by this august
House. I thank you.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE AND ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT (HON. CHINAMASA): Mr. Speaker Sir, I thought
that this is a motion that should be withdrawn, given the circumstances of the matter, there is no point in pursuing the issue and I was inviting the Hon. Member to withdraw the motion.
THE TEMPORARY SPEAKER: The Speaker should have been
advised accordingly.
HON. KAZEMBE: Thank you Mr. Speaker. In view of the fact that the accused is no more, I wish to withdraw the report.
Motion with leave, withdrawn.
MOTION
ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE AND ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT (HON. CHINAMASA): I move that the House do
now adjourn.
HON. GONESE: I thought it would be fair for the Minister to appraise, before the House is adjourned formally Mr. Speaker Sir...
THE TEMPORARY SPEAKER: Order. Hon. Gonese, you are
a very seasoned Member of Parliament in this Parliament. I have already adjourned the House.
HON. GONESE: Yes, I know, but he has not asked for debate.
We only want clarification. You have not done things properly Mr. Speaker. We just wanted clarification on what business do we have because we were supposed to adjourn according to the calendar. That is all we needed. The other Members do not know and I do not know. I just wanted it formally.
The House accordingly adjourned at Five o’clock p.m. until
Tuesday, 1st August, 2017.
PARLIAMENT OF ZIMBABWE
Wednesday, 26th July, 2017
The National Assembly met at a Quarter-past Two O’clock p.m.
PRAYERS
(THE HON. SPEAKER in the Chair)
ANNOUNCEMENTS BY THE HON. SPEAKER
ADVERSE REPORTS RECEIVED FROM THE PARLIAMENTARY
LEGAL COMMITTEE
THE HON. SPEAKER: I have to inform the House that I have received non-adverse reports from the Parliamentary Legal Committee on the following:-
(a) Mines and Minerals Amendment Bill [H. B. 19, 2015] (b) Statutory Instrument Numbers 70, 71, 72, 73, 75, 76, 77 and
78 of 2017 gazetted in the month of June 2017.
(c) General Notices 281, 282, 283, 284, 285, 286, 289, 290, 291,
292, 293, 294, 295, 296, 297, 298, 299, 300, 301, 302, 303, 304, 305, 306, 307, 307, 308, 309, 310A, 311, 312, 313 and 314 of 2017 Gazetted in the month of June, 2017.
NOTICE OF MOTION TO BE PRESENTED BY HON. SEN. CHIEF
CHARUMBIRA
THE HON. SPEAKER: As I call for any notices of motions, allow me to inform you that there is a notice to be presented by Hon. Sen. Chief Charumbira on an issue that affected Hon. Members in this House and the other House. He was chosen by the Committee on Standing Rules and Orders to be the Chairperson of that Privileges Committee. If you so please, may I call upon Hon. Sen. Chief Charumbira to give his notice of motion.
HON. MISIHAIRABWI-MUSHONGA: I stand on a matter of
privilege. I raise this because it links very much to the Question Time that we are going into right now and I am really sad that I have to raise it in the House. Mr. Speaker, you expect us in the House when we raise questions to be clear and to have properly researched questions. Your Research Department just does not respond. It does not respond to things, it does not even have the courtesy of coming back to an Hon. Member when you call and say, please can you find this for me because I intend to raise this question in the afternoon.
I have had conversations with them a number of times and raised complaints and there has not been any change in that behaviour. I thought I needed to have it formally raised in here so that it can be put down. I thank you.
THE HON. SPEAKER: I hear you Hon. Misihairabwi-
Mushonga. I thought such a matter first and foremost should be raised with the Clerk of Parliament who is the direct administrator of all staff here in Parliament. If that had been done, the next port of call if there was no joy was to approach the Speaker as the overall head of Parliament to take corrective measures. I do not know whether this was done.
HON. MISIHAIRABWI-MUSHONGA: I take your point Mr.
Speaker Sir. I think it is generally the frustration that people who are working here, they need to be servicing Members of Parliament and I think there are basic things that need to be done. It does not take somebody being a very good person to just come back to an Hon Member and say – let me just give you the example that I am giving to you.
I phoned because I have a question that I want to raise around issues of aliens. All I needed was a phone number for the Registrar
General’s Office. First, the response that you get is that “handina number yacho” and then I am like you are the Research Department, find it for me and get back to me. I am not asking you to phone the
Registrar General, I am merely asking you to find the number for me. When you do that you then say, here is my number come back to me - absolutely no joy.
I think I raise it out of frustration because I can give you a whole lot of other testimonies around the service that you get as Hon. Members. I get where you are coming from, it should have formally been put to the Clerk. I will do that but I raise it as a matter of frustration. I am sure many other Hon. Members have found service from members of staff sometimes very missing and disrespectful to say the least.
THE HON. SPEAKER: Hon. Misihairabwi-Mushonga, I agree
with you. I take responsibility and I will investigate the matter in collaboration with the Clerk of Parliament. Thank you.
HON. MLILO: I rise on a point of privilege that I think is very vital for the well being of Members of Parliament. Earlier on, I have raised a point with regards to the pedestrian crossing that we have got along Nelson Mandela Avenue opposite our front entrance; sorry, my voice is a bit mumbled because of a terrible cold that I am suffering from. Just to today, I had to rescue Hon. Mliswa when he almost got struck by a car there. I have talked about this issue 3/4 months ago, and I think it is high time administration takes this seriously, because the welfare of Members of Parliament is paramount. They represent constituencies here as well as their families. We cannot have Members of Parliament being struck down by errant drivers.
THE HON. SPEAKER: Hon. Mlilo, you have raised a very
important question of security and safety of all of us, including myself, because I was also once threatened. So, we shall first of all, paint the Zebra line crossing and liaise with Council and perhaps put some humps. However, I have heard someone whispering that we could also have police presence there to assist in the control of traffic, which is very true. I will definitely look into that with the Clerk of Parliament as a matter of urgency.
HON. MAJOME: Thank you Mr. Speaker Sir about that
intervention on the point of priviledge of Hon. Mlilo.
THE HON. SPEAKER: Order! Hon. Ncube and your friend
there, please listen!
HON. MAJOME: Mr. Speaker Sir, I thank you for your concern about that issue but I would hope that you would reconsider the planned intervention, lest it appears that possibly Members of Parliament are concerned only concerned about the road safety of Members of
Parliament. I have noticed that the reason why motorists just fly past the zebra crossing at Parliament is because that is what they are doing everywhere else. Zimbabwean motorists seem not care about pedestrian crossings, school children have been run over even in my constituency.
It is a general problem of a breakdown of the rule of law in traffic. So, I am hoping that as we consider measures for our own pedestrian crossing, we also do something as Members of Parliament to ensure that motorist respect Zebra crossings.
THE HON. SPEAKER: I will take that to the Minister of
Transport and Infrastructural Development.
*HON. ADV. CHAMISA: Thank you Hon. Speaker. I have heard
what you said that it is Question time but it seems we have a challenge here. You would notice that we only have three Ministers, two deputies and the Hon. Vice President. However, yesterday, even those who were not feeling well attended because they wanted to vote. It is very important that we take Parliament business seriously because now we want to discuss about the challenges people are facing, yet there are no Ministers.
This session is very important as shown by the presence of the Hon. Vice President but the Ministers are not taking it seriously. Members of Parliament are here but there is no one to direct their questions to, yet this is a day reserved for Ministers.
Mr. Speaker, the Standing Rules and Orders state that Ministers should take Parliament business seriously, if they do not, they are charged with contempt of Parliament. So, it appears like we are toothless dogs. This is very serious business, we are using tax payers’ money to come and sit here but we are not getting answers from our Ministers. Those Ministers who are not present should be charged with contempt of Parliament. If they do not pay the fine, then it will simply prove that as Parliament we do not have powers.
We cannot keep protecting Ministers who are not serious when we were sent by people to work for them. If they cannot work, we have capable Members of Parliament who can run those Ministries like Hon.
Chinotimba. We have serious MP’s who want to see our country going forward. I think we should evoke our law if these Ministers come late or they do not come at all, they should be charged with contempt of Parliament because no one is above the law. The law should be followed and every contravention of the law has got a charge. I think we should bring out all our weapons so that we curb the errant Ministers.
I have just submitted this to you so that you look into it. I thank you.
THE HON. SPEAKER: I will ask the officials to take note of those Ministers who are not present without authority but here are the following Ministers who have given official apology:-
Hon. Deputy Minister Madanha, Hon. Deputy Minister T. V. Muzenda, Hon. Deputy Minister B. J. Mlambo, Hon. Deputy Minister Dr.
Marapira, Hon. Deputy Minister P. T. Zhanda, Hon. Deputy Minister Mabuwa, Hon. Deputy Minister Mguni and Hon. Minister Prof. Moyo. That is the list that I have.
The others will write down and give us the reasons as to why they are not here.
HON. GONESE: Thank you very much Hon. Speaker
THE HON. SPEAKER: Sorry, Hon. Chinamasa has just gone to
give Notice, he is coming back.
HON. GONESE: Thank you very much Hon. Speaker Sir, just as a follow up and also to get some clarity. You have indicated that the officials take note of those Ministers who have not sought leave of absence. At the moment, I note that from the list that you read out, it is only Deputy Ministers who have given apologies for today and I noticed that we have got one or two Ministers …
THE HON. SPEAKER: And Prof. Moyo.
HON. GONESE: And Prof. Moyo, which means to say that the
vast majority of the Ministers have not sought leave of absence. In particular, I take note of the Minister of Foreign Affairs, Hon. Mbengegwi who is a perennial absentee and Hon. Parirenyatwa who is usually also not present in this august House.
I would like to find out whether in terms of the ruling or what you have said, we are now going to do something tangible? I think time and again, we have raised these issues and I think the Chair, including the
Deputy Speaker and members of the Speaker’s Panel have agreed with the sentiments raised by Hon. Members of Parliament. What has been lacking is concrete steps being taken to ensure that this problem is nipped in the bud. I think we have pointed out before and I think the Hon. Vice President of the Movement for Democratic Change has pointed out the fact that we do have powers in terms of the Standing Orders. The provisions are clear that those Ministers who are truant are guilty of contempt of Parliament and I think the time has now come Mr. Speaker Sir, to crack the whip so that Ministers become aware that being truant is going to be visited with appropriate punishment as prescribed in the Standing Orders of this august House.
I believe that we should go a step further in that your office, Mr. Speaker Sir, must actually take measures and implementing mechanisms to ensure that this problem is dealt with once and for all, so that we do not continue coming to this august House to raise the same issues and then sound like a broken record by repeating ourselves. We do not like to do that Mr. Speaker, and I think it is now time for us to do something concrete and decisive – those are my submissions Mr. Speaker. – [HON.
MEMBERS: Hear, hear.] -
THE HON. SPEAKER: Appreciated and fully noted by the
Chair.
HON. MLISWA: On a point of order Mr. Speaker Sir!
THE HON. SPEAKER: Is it a point of order?
HON. MLISWA: I think mine Mr. Speaker really is to support what they are saying, but more important. You said you had written to His Excellency the President and Commander in Chief about the performance of his Ministers who are not coming because in their not coming, they are certainly not doing what they are expected to do.
When they are appointed by the President to be Ministers or Deputy Ministers, they are actually representing the entire Executive which is headed by him. You have not told us of the response of His Excellency the President in that regard, because if His Excellency who is the Head of State, Judiciary, Executive and Parliament does not respond to that, it also shows the attitude the Ministers have.
My question to you is that when you wrote to His Excellency the President, did he respond to the letter that you wrote to him pertaining to the performance of his Ministers in Parliament?
THE VICE PRESIDENT AND MINISTER OF JUSTICE, LEGAL AND PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (HON. E. D.
MNANGAGWA): Thank you Mr. Speaker Sir, the broken record which Hon. Gonese plays every Wednesday with regards to Ministers, it is not the first time that this issue has been raised. I can assure you that Hon. Ministers are fully aware that on Wednesday like today, they should be here. This is why I am wearing this, I have just been released to come to Parliament and the rest of my colleagues are at this function of the Executive. I have been released to come and attend Parliament.
If they are free and whenever they are free, they will do their best to come to Parliament. In most cases you at least have four to six Hon. Ministers who will come to Parliament and they are adequate to deal with issues of policy covering the spectrum of Government. When I am present here, in fact, let the Hon. Members ask any question, I have the capacity and capability to deal with issues relating to the policies of Government which are articulated in Cabinet. Question Time is based on the principle that Members of Parliament would want to know Government policies on various issues of concern and a policy is not a line Ministry aspect alone. It is a broad Executive issue that can be dealt with by myself in the Executive.
With regard to the two names that have been mentioned that is the
Hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs. Generally I would suggest to Hon. Gonese that with respect, the Hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs is generally not in the country. When he is in the country and if it is a Wednesday, he might be in the country and just comes in for Cabinet but he is usually outside the country. So that one, I would plead with Hon.
Members of Parliament that they should be more lenient with him.
With regard to the Hon. Minister of Health and Child Care, Hon. Parirenyatwa who is a Senator. He also has business in the Senate so he doubles both in the National Assembly as well as in the Senate, but if there is duty in the Senate, his first port of call is the Senate. I thank you. – [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] -
THE HON. SPEAKER: Order, order I appreciate the response
by the Hon. Vice President but we still will proceed to find out about the absence of those other Ministers who may not be at the function where the Hon. Vice President was.
Secondly, I would like to inform the Hon. Vice President that every Ministry has a Liaison Officer who liaises with Parliament.
Where Hon. Ministers are engaged, the Constitution and Standing
Orders are very clear, they are absolved from attending. It is those Liaison officers under the charge of the Permanent Secretary who should advise and simply to advise that I am engaged or I am not available and we record through the Papers Office that the Ministers not present have given their due notice of absence.
I thought the Hon. Vice President was going to assist me to explain the response of His Excellency, the President as far as the communication that I did. I thought the matter was discussed in
Cabinet.
THE VICE PRESIDENT AND MINISTER OF JUSTICE, LEGAL AND PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (HON. E.D.
MNANGAGWA): Thank you Mr. Speaker Sir. I had assumed it was a privileged communication but now that you mentioned it, I can share it with Members of the House. It is true that the President felt unhappy that the absence of Ministers in the House prompted the Speaker to write to the President which rarely happens. So, he was appealing to Members of Cabinet that they should attend Parliament. Where they do not do so, most of our colleagues have Deputy Ministers, they should have Deputy Ministers coming to attend on their behalf.
Also as you mentioned, there are liaison officers who should be able to inform the House if the Minister is engaged. So, the President did actually appeal and informed us that we have a duty first to our representatives as we represent constituencies to Parliament and we have a duty in Parliament, a constitutional duty to be present and to explain the mandates which they perform as Ministers. I thought I would share with you Mr. Speaker Sir, that the President indeed probed us to attend Parliament.
HON. ZWIZWAI: I have a point of clarification Mr. Speaker.
THE HON. SPEAKER: I have not recognised you. You just stand; you do not say anything. Please sit down. I was about to thank the Vice President for his explanation. I think communication has been given and responded to by His Excellency, the President. Do you want to have your point of clarification?
Hon. Mliswa having stood to make a point of order.
THE HON. SPEAKER: Sorry, I have not recognised you. In terms of Section 110 of the Standing Orders, I shall not allow repetition on an issue. I think the Hon. Vice President comprehensively answered your query, so I will not allow any further debate on that. Yes, your last point of clarification.
*HON. ZWIZWAI: Thank you Hon. Speaker. I would like to get some clarification on policy from the Leader of the House, Hon. E.
- Mnangagwa. We have been told of what was said by His Excellency on his complaints against Ministers who are not attending to their parliamentary duties. Hon. Vice President, when you responded to the first question on a point of order raised by Hon. Gonese and Hon. Chamisa, you talked about a broken record whereby you were referring to what is happening. It seems your response was at tangent with what was said by His Excellency. From your response, you did not seem to support His Excellency and you seemed not to care about what is happening in Parliament yet you are the Leader of Government business – [HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.] - Why such a negative response?
*HON. E. D. MNANGAGWA: Mr. Speaker Sir, we discussed
these things and have different understanding and perceptions of issues.
We have some people who have just come into this House – [HON.
ZWIZWAI: Inaudible interjections] –
THE HON. SPEAKER: Order, order.
*HON. E. D. MNANGAGWA: When you were debating Hon. Member, I was silent and I was listening to what you were saying. May you please give me the same attention?
When I responded to a question asked by Hon. Gonese, I gave a response which was equal to him – [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible
interjections.] –
*HON. MUNENGAMI: On a point of order Hon. Speaker, from what the Vice President is saying, he seems to be saying we may be Members of Parliament but we are of different levels and he is insinuating that Hon. Gonese is inferior.
HON. E. D. MNANGAGWA: Now, let me explain. I responded to a question which has been asked and I will not respond to something which has not been asked. The Hon. Member does not seem to understand why I responded in that way. When you later clarified on the issue, you told us that you have a letter which you had written to His Excellency and I am not sure whether I can stand up and respond to that issue. I said I may not be able to comment on that because it is an issue which is dependent upon two seniors; the President and you Mr. Speaker Sir. However, I can now respond to what was said by the President in Cabinet to all members who were present. That is what I can debate and is within my level. I thank you.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE
*HON. MAPIKI: Thank you Mr. Speaker Sir. I am directing my question to the Minister of Sport and Recreation, Hon. Hlongwane regarding his Ministry because there are some sporting activities which are not played or performed in rural areas but are prevalent in urban areas. These include boxing and swimming. What is the Government policy regarding the spread of such sporting activities in rural areas?
*THE HON. SPEAKER: Hon. Mapiki, can you repeat your
question?
*HON. MAPIKI: My question is directed to the Minister of Sport and Recreation. There are a lot of games which were introduced in cities such as boxing, rugby, tennis and many others. However, in rural areas, these sporting activities were not introduced yet we realise that some of the students who are involved in these sporting activities are getting scholarships to study abroad. How can we spread these sporting activities in rural areas so that learners and others benefit also?
THE MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION (HON.
HLONGWANE): Thank you Hon. Member for such a question. In Zimbabwe, boxing is in two sections. The first one is called amateur boxing which is under the Sport and Recreation Commission. The second one is the professional boxing which is the Zimbabwe National Control Board. The amateur boxing is prevalent in the urban areas. In trying to uplift the boxing sport, cricket, rugby, hockey, including tennis, Government policy is that these sports should not only be confined to urban areas, but should also be found in rural areas in the communities through the community sport and club recreation system. Right now, we have engaged tennis Zimbabwe and the Ministry of Primary and Secondary Education that each and every school in Zimbabwe should have a tennis court, so that the sport of tennis should be found in the
9000 schools.
The other sports that I did not mention by name is that there are clubs that are being formed in the rural areas so that these clubs will link with the National Sports Association of the relevant sport or the discipline for the training of coaches and trainers so that they will also be found in the rural areas. So there is a lot that is happening in trying to take these sports to the rural areas. Thank you.
*HON. WADYAJENA: My supplementary question is not on
boxing but that the Minister has promised to give us a statement about policy issues concerning Magaya’s support of soccer. So we wanted the Minister to explain what Magaya is doing especially forcing people to attend his services. Can he shade light in that area?
*THE HON. SPEAKER: That is a distinct separate question. It is not a supplementary question.
*HON. MAHOKA: My question is directed to the Hon. Vice
President Mnangagwa in the absence of Hon. Dr. Made. What is
Government policy in terms of the maize that is being delivered to GMB concerning the transporters and this issue of stop orders, so that the stop order facilities are in place in order to deliver their maize to the GMB? When people take their maize to the GMB, the transporters want $150.00 which the farmers do not have and they end up taking the maize at $3 a bucket of which the farmer will end up losing out. This is because if he delivers five tones, the farmer has to pay one tone to the transporter. I do not know when the law will be put in place for stop orders to be effected.
THE VICE PRESIDENT AND MINISTER OF JUSTICE,
LEGAL AND PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (HON. E. D.
MNANGAGWA): Thank you Mr. Speaker. On Thursday last week we
had 19000 farmers who had these stop order facilities. I think by now, we have surpassed that number. These stop orders are being used by those who are under the Command Agriculture. Those who did not participate in this command agriculture do not have these facilities. It is because those who are under the command agriculture have loans to the Command Agriculture Programme. We do not have any challenges with that because people are being issued with stop order forms and they have been distributed throughout the country. As I have said before, last week, we had 19000 and by now I think we have surpassed that number. I do not know whether I have answered the question fully because I had to leave so that I attend to the Senate. If she can repeat the question that will be helpful.
*HON. MAHOKA: I am referring to the money that is paid to the transporters when they have delivered the maize to the GMB. The transporters charge $1.50 per sack; when the farmers have delivered, because there is no stop order facility for everyone as he is saying. Long back GMB had this facility for everyone who transported maize to GMB despite participating in the command agriculture. But now, that facility is no longer there for everyone, and farmers are losing out money to the transporters who are charging $3.00 per bucket.
THE VICE PRESIDENT AND MINISTER OF JUSTICE,
LEGAL AND PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (HON. E. D.
MNANANGAGWA): This is an administrative issue. I think the transporter is the one who registers himself with the GMB so that he collects his dues through a stop order. So, it is just a question of entering into a contract between the GMB, the farmer, and the transporter. This is not a policy issue but just an agreement between the players because on delivery, the farmer does not have money.
HON. L. SIBANDA: Thank you Mr. Speaker Sir. My question is directed to the Vice President Hon. Mnangagwa. What is Government policy with regards to voter registration for prisoners and those abroad?
THE VICE PRESIDENT AND MINISTER OF JUSTICE, LEGAL AND PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (HON. E. D.
MNANANGAGWA): The concept of prison is that after you have committed a crime, you forfeit the rights of a free person. If you are a prisoner, all these fundamental rights which everybody enjoys as a citizen are now forfeited. So, our prisoners do not vote. Thank you.
HON. GONESE: I have a supplementary question Mr. Speaker...
THE HON. SPEAKER: Order, order! Hon. Tshuma, if you want
to ask a question, you will be given time to ask a question.
HON. GONESE: Thank you very much Mr. Speaker Sir. The question was in two parts. It referred to prisoners and also those who are abroad and I think the second part was not answered. I also wanted to supplement the one on the…
THE HON. SPEAKER: No, I correct you there. There was no question on diaspora.
HON. GONESE: It was there. I also have a follow up on the –
[HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] –
HON. E. D. MNANGAGWA: Mr. Speaker Sir, I have no
problem with the question, but the initial question did not cover diaspora. However, I can reply – [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] – On the diaspora issue, they are allowed to vote.
Everybody who is a citizen and is in the diaspora is completely and 100% allowed to vote. If he puts his address in Chipinge, he must come to Chipinge and vote. If he puts his address in Highfield, he must leave Haiti and come to Highfield to vote. So, they are allowed.
Hon. Gonese having stood up to ask a supplementary question.
THE HON. SPEAKER: How can you ask a supplementary question twice?
HON. GONESE: No, I did not ask twice. What I did Mr. Speaker
- before he leaves, can I just ask the supplementary ?– [HON.
MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] –
THE HON. SPEAKER: Order, order.
HON. MUTSEYAMI: On a point of order Hon. Speaker.
THE HON. SPEAKER: No, I am not allowing that point of order.
You are taking much of your time. You will have time to ask questions.
HON. MUTSEYAMI: Mine is a point of order.
THE HON. SPEAKER: In terms of what Standing Order? – [HON. MUTSEYAMI: These things of referring to Standing Orders simply because I have stood up is not fair.] – then sit down. I was very kind to you, sit down. – [HON. MUTSEYAMI: But Speaker, munenge makuzoti Mutseyami haanzwisisi.] – Please, sit down.
*HON. MUPFUMI: Thank you Mr. Speaker Sir. I am directing my question to the Deputy Minister of Local Government, Public Works and National Housing. What is Government policy regarding council workers who, after retiring are not able to access their pension for a long time and they will be staying at home as destitutes? What is
Government policy regarding Pension Fund for local authorities’ retirees and pensioners?
*THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT,
PUBLIC WORKS AND NATIONAL HOUSING (HON.
CHINGOSHO): Thank you Hon. Mupfumi for that question. When we look at the issue of pensions, this is administered by the Pension Fund which is under the jurisdiction of the Minister of Finance and Economic Development. I am saying, if we have any retirees or pensioners who have not received their pensions, may you please submit their names to the Ministry and thorough investigations will be carried out.
HON. MUPFUMI: Thank you Mr. Speaker Sir. Local authority employees have a Pension Fund which is under Local Government.
That is why I had asked the Deputy Minister of Local Government, Public Works and National Housing to explain as to how those funds are disbursed to the workers when they go on retirement because it is money which is deducted from their salaries?
*HON. CHINGOSHO: Thank you Hon. Speaker. I will respond to the question raised by Hon. Mupfumi. I had misunderstood that question because within the council employees are some who receive their pensions from the Pension Fund and yet these ones whom you are talking about have their own Pension Fund which is administered by the Government. Let me say; there are problems because the money which is supposed to be disbursed is very little and not enough for all the needs. If we have any retirees who are in dire situations, may they please come forward and submit their names and investigations will be carried out as to why they are not receiving regular pensions.
*HON. SARUWAKA: Thank you Mr. Speaker Sir. I am directing my question to the Minister of Public Service, Labour and
Social Services. What is Government policy regarding the payment of civil servants? We have noticed that the pay dates start with the army, the police and at the end of that group, we have the pensioners and yet these are the vulnerable group which may need that money more than these other people. Why should the pensioners be paid last and yet they should be paid first because they are the vulnerable group from the people who receive payments from the Treasury?
*THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE,
LABOUR AND SOCIAL SERVICES (HON. ENG.
MATANGAIDZE): Thank you Hon. Saruwaka for this question. This question would have been relevant if it was asked when we started laying out these dates. We noticed that the pay dates have been fixed in such a way that people receive their salaries on regular dates. If Members of Parliament are paid on the 2nd of every month, that is what should be happening. If we are to change the pay dates, it may mean that the cycle will be disturbed because some people will be paid within a week or others within two weeks, which may create problems.
*HON. SARUWAKA: Hon. Minister, my question is related to the motive behind, putting pensioners last when they are the vulnerable group. If you remember well, nurses used to be paid later than almost everybody else but because their condition was reviewed, they are now receiving their pay at a better date. Now we are saying, may we please start by paying the pensioners first because they are the vulnerable group and they are in need of these monies because of their status.
HON. ENG. MATANGAIDZE: Thank you Mr. Speaker. When
we work out these cycles of the payment of salaries, we look at the availability of funds for the payment and the biggest group which receives salary from Treasury is that of teachers whose number is over 140 000. So, the bulk of the workers in Government are teachers. Therefore, when we look at what is happening, the way we get the funds from the revenues and the Treasury, that is what will determine in putting out the payment dates. That depends on how we get the monies and that makes it easier for us to disburse the funds because we will
have looked at that. That is how we apportion those monies and those dates. I thank you.
*HON. CHIBAYA: Thank you Mr. Speaker. My question is
directed to the Deputy Minister of Public Service, Labour and Social Services, Hon. Matangaidze. The policy question is, is it Government policy of giving false information regarding the increment of the funds paid out to pensioners? Is it the policy of his Ministry to tell lies to this House and to the country regarding the increment of pay-outs to pensioners?
We were informed in this House that at the end of June, the pensioners would be paid $80 and towards the end of the year, they would be given $150.00 but, we later realised that they have been paid $80.00. So, we want them to explain here because the pensioners were listening and they heard the information from the Ministry. I thank you.
*THE TEMPORAY SPEAKER (HON. MARUMAHOKO:
Hon. Member, may you please withdraw the statement that the Minister is telling lies. That is uparliamentary.
*HON. CHIBAYA: Thank you Mr. Speaker, I withdraw those words but we are saying the Minister said something which was not fulfilled. I thank you.
*HON. ENG. MATANGAIDZE: Thank you Hon. Speaker. On
the question which was raised by Hon. Chibaya, it is true that as a Ministry under Hon. Sen. Mupfumira, everything was stated because of the way we wanted things done and the way pension had to be paid out. We had looked at the money which was being paid, they were receiving $60.00 and we said $60.00 was too little. We felt that it was not enough to meet the daily needs of these pensioners, hence we said it should be raised to $100.00 or even to $150 if possible because it will be a better living wage.
We have noticed that NSSA does not have enough funds to pay these people because we have people whom we call actuaries. These actuaries give us information on the payments which we make. We then make our payments regarding the actuaries so that we do not deplete our funds in NSSA. The information given to us was that, if we move payments to increase them from $60.00 to $80.00 and then increase the age of retirement from 60 to 65, the amount is going to last us until
- Hence, instead of going to $100.00, we have to increase from
$60.00 to $80.00 but it is the Ministry’s wish that the pay-out should be increased should funds allow. When we get to that stage, we are going to inform you. I think that it will be bad for us and a bad move to increase the money regardless of the information which has been given to us. I thank you.
*HON. CHIBAYA: My question is very clear. We have been informed that the money was going to be increased and what he is explaining now is, they told us that they were going to be giving the pensioners $100.00. It means that investigations and research had been done, there had been conclusions that Government was going to pay that amount and they had the capacity to pay out because I do not think that they can come and issue a statement without a thorough research or investigations. I am saying so because I represent the people of Mkoba and some of these pensioners came to my house and made enquiries and said, ‘we were promised a $100.00 but, we have only been given $80.00 – why?’ That is why I have come here.
*HON. ENG. MATANGAIDZE: Hon. Speaker, I have already
responded to that question and I said Hon. Mupfumira came and gave projections of the payments. These were only projections and it was not a commitment. She said her projection and her wishes were that we could increase that money to the amount that we want. That is why I still continue saying that our wish is that funds allowing, we need to pay livable pensions.
*THE TEMPORARY SPEAKER: Hon. Minister, the question
is saying, why did you not make adequate research before issuing out a statement on payments and you give out a statement which you are now contradicting?
*HON. ENG. MATANGAIDZE: The point that I am making
Mr. Speaker is very clear. Mr. Speaker Sir, I am responding to this question – when the Minister issued a statement, she was talking about her wish that when we give our pensioners $60.00, this is not adequate for anybody to eke out a living because at times, there were problems in the cash flow and pensioners would travel long distances and a long time in such a way that when they finally get their monies, it is not worth the travel that they would have journeyed. That is why we said our wish was to increase these pay-outs on a small scale going upwards.
Then, we had to go to the actuaries for more information and they had to give us advice on how we could go out with these payments so that we do not destroy our funds at NSSA because we will have exhausted the funds. We also asked for investments which we could carry out so that we have more money and increase the pay-outs from the current $80.00 for the pensioners and retirees.
*HON. S. CHIDHAKWA: Thank you Mr. Speaker Sir. I am
saying, the Deputy Minister of Public Service, Labour and Social
Services seems to be …
THE TEMPORARY SPEAKER: You said you were issuing a
point of order and now you are asking a supplementary question. If it is not what you are saying, I will make you sit down.
*HON. S. CHIDHAKWA: When the Minister delivered that
speech, she did not say it was her wish.
THE TEMPORARY SPEAKER: You said it is a point of order.
HON. CHIBAYA: Unogara panzvimbo yaVP uri ani – [HON.
TSHUMA: Get away.] -
HON. J. TSHUMA: These people are so disrespectful and they are not honourable at all. He insulted me and I do not know how I am supposed to withdraw an insult from the person. He insulted me. So, he should withdraw. I know it is your nature to be insulting.
THE TEMPORARY SPEAKER: Hon. Tshuma, we are in
Parliament, please take your seat. Hon. Member, if you said so, can you withdraw. I do not need any explanation. You say you did or did not. HON. J. TSHUMA: For the sake of sanity and for you people – she is calling me a Councillor. Can you see how these people are? I am a reasonable person and I will withdraw whatever they think I have said.
*HON. A. MNANGAGWA: My question is directed to the
Minister of Women’s Affairs. She talked about a women’s bank and I would like to know how far she has gone with the establishment of this bank. Is it now in operation so that women may start accessing funds to eke a living?
*THE MINISTER OF WOMEN’S AFFAIRS, GENDER AND COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT (HON. CHIKWINYA): We have
gone a long way in establishing this women’s bank. We have established our base at Trust Towers along Samora Machel Avenue. We have acquired furniture and now we need to have the monies in the bank so that women can start to borrow, because it is important that cash is first deposited into this bank. In order for you to access any funds with any bank, you have to open up an account - [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible
interjections.] -
As I was saying, in order for anyone to access money from any institution, you have to open up an account and then deposit the funds. I will further explain and say when this bank is finally launched, we expect women to open their accounts with this bank. At the moment we are looking for offshore funding. We have Members of Parliament both in the opposition and ruling party who are working at getting funds for this bank so that women can access the funds. What we are talking about is resource mobilisation but as far as putting down the infrastructure is concerned, we have developed it. What we are working on at the moment is the ICT infrastructure and this may take some time. As far as we are concerned, we are at an advanced stage in launching this bank.
The workers who are supposed to work in this bank have been recruited.
I thank you.
*HON. A. MNANGAGWA: My supplementary question is that
the Minister informed this august House that the bank had been given some $10m so that women can access it. Now she is saying we cannot borrow that money and yet there is $10m which has been injected into the bank.
*HON. CHIKWINYA: The $10m which was given to this bank
was supposed to be used for procurement of services and licence fees. We have not used up this entire fund. We still have some funds which are available. From what I have observed pertaining to the needs of the women, we have about $6m and I believe it is not enough for the needs of women and that is why we are talking of resource mobilisation. What we have is only a drop in the ocean and may not meet the needs of women. I thank you.
*HON. SITHOLE: Thank you Mr. Speaker Sir. It is surprising that before a bank is in operation, we have already used $4 or $5 million. We saw the bank carrying out a lot of activities whereby some women were also given some aphrodisiacs. Was that part of the money which was used to assist the women?
THE TEMPORARY SPEAKER: Order, order! Hon. Sithole, let
us be serious with our business here.
Questions Without Notice were interrupted by THE
TEMPORARY SPEAKER in terms of Standing Order No. 64.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS WITH NOTICE
HON. GONESE: Thank you very much Mr. Speaker. I am
seeking an extension to Questions Without Notice.
HON. MLISWA: I object.
HON. DR. SHUMBA: On a point of order! The objection was simply a disruption to process. The Hon. Member that objected exited the Chamber and therefore, his objection is not valid.
THE TEMPORARY SPEAKER: I have already made a ruling, I
did not realise that he was going out. In future, Hon. Members, it is not proper for an Hon. Member to stand up, object and then go out – [HON.
MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] – Order, order!
HON. MAJOME: On a point of order. Mr. Speaker Sir, this question has been on the Order Paper for a long time. I have posed this question much earlier than is indicated on the votes. It was posted before the 3rd of May, 2017. I am concerned that, again, the same issue that surely, if the Hon. Minister of Health is unable to answer the question, he has a deputy Minister who also does not come to answer the question. Also, surely, if neither Minister nor deputy Minister is unable to come to the House, surely, they have the duty to prepare a written answer and ask their fellow Hon. Ministers to answer the question. In my view, I think these Hon. Ministers are in contempt of Parliament and this should not go on like this. I seek your assistance in having the Hon. Ministers either to come and answer my question or prepare the answer and give it to another Hon. Minister to answer the question.
THE TEMPORARY SPEAKER: The Minister of Health has
been absent in this Chamber for a very long time. I am sure we are going to liaise with him and make sure that he will be here next week to answer these questions. If he is not here, the deputy should come to stand on his behalf.
*HON. MACHINGAUTA: On a point of priviledge where we are
requesting for the Ministerial statement from the Minister of Primary and Secondary Education regarding the issues which I raised in this House, which include the use of schools property by political parties and forcing of school children to go to these rallies and also the use monies in schools. It is supposed that some of these monies which are raised by parents are then going to be used by the Minister, but this is not in line with what the parents expect. Therefore, may the Minister bring a
Ministerial statement so that these issues are clarified on whether it is true that the Ministry is going to use the SDA funds or it is just information from the social media? I thank you.
THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF PRIMARY AND
SECONDARY EDUCATION (HON. PROF. MAVIMA): Thank you
Hon. Speaker. The Hon. Member has mentioned about three issues...
THE TEMPORARY SPEAKER: Hon. Minister, are you not
fluent in Shona, the Hon. Member has asked his question in Shona.
*HON MAVIMA: The Hon. Member asked three questions. The
first question was on the utilisation of school property by political parties and we responded to this question. The second question was on the attendance of rallies by teachers and pupils at schools. The third was that the Ministry of Primary and Secondary Education is now grabbing funds from the SDA funds and I am saying we are going to issue a statement regarding these three issues. I thank you.
*HON. MACHINGAUTA: Can you tell us when you will issue such a statement so that we can expect it?
*HON. PROF. MAVIMA: Mr. Speaker Sir, I am sure we can respond within a fortnight. I thank you.
THE TEMPORARY SPEAKER: The Minister of Justice has
gone to the Senate.
THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF PRIMARY AND
SECONDARY EDUCATION (HON. PROF. MAVIMA): Hon.
Speaker Sir, I have the authority of the Vice President and Minister of
Justice, Legal and Parliamentary Affairs to respond to those questions.
THE TEMPORARY SPEAKER: Thank you very much. So, we
allow you to answer questions on behalf the Vice President and Minister of Justice, Legal and Parliamentary Affairs.
CURBING OF FOOD SHORTAGES IN ZIMBABWE PRISONS
- HON. MASUKU asked the Minister of Justice, Legal and
Parliamentary Affairs to inform the House of Government’s plan to curb food shortages in Zimbabwe prisons.
THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF PRIMARY AND
SECONDARY EDUCATION (HON. PROF. MAVIMA) on behalf of
THE VICE PRESIDENT AND MINISTER OF JUSTICE, LEGAL AND PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (HON. E. D.
MNANGAGWA): Mr. Speaker Sir, I thank Hon. Masuku for raising such an important question. Let me first of all highlight that the Government of Zimbabwe remains committed to improving the conditions of prisons. At all material times, Government makes frantic efforts to provide the necessary financial resources to ensure the effective and efficient operation of the Prisons and Correctional Service Department (ZPCS). It is, however, unfortunate that the resources remain inadequate due to competing priorities on the Treasury.
In view of the foregoing, the inadequacy has resulted in the Department failing to get enough financial support to facilitate the provision of sufficient prisoners’ rations in conformity with the approved dietary scale. In an effort to make up for the gap and also address the inmates’ rations and or dietary challenges, I am pleased to report that the state of affairs pertaining to maize meal and vegetable production is sustainably good.
COMMAND AGRICULTURE IN PRISON FARMS
- HON. MASUKU asked the Minister of Justice, Legal and Parliamentary Affairs to inform the House why Government is not introducing Command Agriculture to all prison farms?
THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF PRIMARY AND
SECONDARY EDUCATION (HON. PROF. MAVIMA) on behalf of
THE VICE PRESIDENT AND MINISTER OF JUSTICE, LEGAL AND PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (HON. E. D.
MNANGAGWA): Mr. Speaker Sir, on maize meal, the stock levels will last until August 2017. These stocks have also been boosted courtesy of the 300 tonnes of maize received from the Drought Relief Programme. Furthermore, the same programme gave the ZPCS
Department a total of 121 900 tonnes of rice to enhance their dietary requirements. We are also grateful that the ZPCS identified some farms which have been enlisted under the Government’s Command Agriculture programme. As a matter of fact, Government has introduced Command Agriculture to selected farms, the programme is being carried out in stages to improve sustainability. Our stocks of grain have improved significantly due to the inclusion of ZPCS farms under the Command Agriculture programme.
BALANCED DIET FOR PRISONERS
- HON. MASUKU asked the Minister of Justice, Legal and Parliamentary Affairs to inform the House if prisoners are getting a balanced diet.
THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF PRIMARY AND
SECONDARY EDUCATION (HON. PROF. MAVIMA) on behalf of
THE VICE PRESIDENT AND MINISTER OF JUSTICE, LEGAL AND PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (HON. E. D.
MNANGAGWA): Mr. Speaker Sir, the Department is also producing enough vegetables across all prison stations. A progressive total of 190 596.6 kgs of vegetables have been produced to feed inmates, whilst a total 9 934.65 kgs have also been preserved as dried vegetables for consumption in times of need. Such production has resulted in saving a lot of money since the Department no longer buys vegetables.
Mr. Speaker Sir, pertaining to the provision of protein, a number of arrangements have been put in place. For a long time, challenges were being experienced on the provision of relish, especially meat. However, these challenges have since been minimized as arrangements are being made with the Zimbabwe Parks and Wildlife Management Authorities to ensure the sustainable provision of game meat such as buffaloes and elephants to cater for inmates’ protein needs.
In an effort to address inmates’ nutritional requirements, supplementary feeding to address their nutritional needs has been devised. One such alternative is of corn soya blend which is being fed to the needy with plumpy nuts being received from the Ministry of Health and Child Care and the International Committee of Red Cross. In addition, the production of indigenous vegetables
(tsunga/munyevhe/chemberedzagumana ) courtesy of the nutritional support for the National Aids Council (NAC) has gone a long way in complementing our inmates’ nutritional needs. To this end, officers have undergone training resulting with such gardens being established at stations like Bindura, Chikurubi, Marondera and Ridigita Prison Farms.
Mr. Speaker Sir, the Government remains committed to ensuring that inmates within the prisons are well catered for. I thank you.
RECRUITMENT OF MAGISTRATES
- HON. MASUKU asked the Minister of Justice, Legal and
Parliamentary Affairs to
- state whether there is regional balance in the recruitment of magistrates in Zimbabwe;
- explain why 18 magistrates resigned in 2016 and why a total of nine (9) females were discharged against one male as articulated in the Judicial Service Commission 2016 Annual Report.
THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF PRIMARY AND
SECONDARY EDUCATION (HON. PROF. MAVIMA) on behalf of
THE VICE PRESIDENT AND MINISTER OF JUSTICE, LEGAL AND PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (HON. E. D.
MNANGAGWA): Mr. Speaker Sir, I wish to thank the Hon. Member
for raising such pertinent issues.
Mr. Speaker, in accordance with Section 18 of our Constitution, the State must promote the fair representation of all Zimbabwe’s regions in all institutions and agencies of Government at every level. In line with this constitutional national objective, the State is obligated to ensure that appointments to State institutions and agencies reflect regional balance. In keeping with national objective, Section 184 of the Constitution provides that judicial appointments should reflect broadly the diversity and gender composition of Zimbabwe.
The Judicial Service Commission, as the constitutional body enjoined with the recruitment of magistrates, is guided by these constitutional provisions in the appointment of magistrates. A scrutiny of the regional, provincial and other magistrates that we have in our country will reveal beyond retraction the regional and gender composition of our society. In all fairness, therefore, the Judicial Service Commission has endeavored to ensure that regional balance is reflected in the recruitment of magistrates. Any practice to the contrary would be an affront to the letter and spirit of our progressive
Constitution.
Mr. Speaker Sir, with regards to the number of magistrates who resigned or were dismissed in 2016 as articulated in the Judicial Service Commission 2016 Annual Report, it is important to note that the Judicial Service Commission is constitutionally obligated to appoint magistrates. Section 182 (a) of the Constitution categorically states that magistrates shall be appointed by the Judicial Service Commission. Pursuant thereto, the conditions of service and all workplace matters pertaining to magistrates are a purview of the Commission.
Mr. Speaker Sir, the Judicial Service Commission is responsible for taking disciplinary action against judicial officers. Guided by the principles of administrative justice, the Constitution, the parent Act and its regulations, the Commission can legally take appropriate disciplinary action against a magistrate who is shown to have contravened his or her workplace obligations. Whether the majority of those who are dismissed after proper disciplinary proceedings, are males or females, is a matter that depends on who would have been found guilty of misconduct at a particular time.
Insofar as resignations are concerned, all I can say is that this is a matter of personal preference of any employer. In public, quasi-public and private institutions, some employees will inevitably resign for a variety of reasons.
HON. MAJOME: While I thank the Hon. Minister for graciously standing in to answer questions, what happens with supplementary questions regarding the issues he is raising?
THE TEMPORARY SPEAKER: Do you have a supplementary
question?
HON. MAJOME: Yes.
THE TEMPORARY SPEAKER: Yes, you are free to ask him.
HON. MAJOME: Can I proceed to ask him?
THE TEMPORARY SPEAKER: Yes. That is why he is
standing in for the Minister.
HON. MAJOME: My supplementary question Mr. Speaker Sir
is, is he aware that there is a dire shortage of magistrates in the Judicial Service Commission that very many posts are unfilled. Particularly, I will speak about the Bulawayo Tredgold Building where I have been, you feel sorry for a magistrate. They work in the bail court, they get into the maintenance court and they go to the deceased estates court, the same magistrates. They have such a high volume of cases that even for them to write judgements is so difficult. Is he aware that working conditions are that and justice is suffering? What is it that they are doing in order to ensure that there are sufficient magistrates that are available above the level of the most junior magistrates so that the public encounters justice and that the magistrates who work there are also working under conditions that are bearable? Thank you.
HON. PROF. MAVIMA: Thank you Hon. Speaker Sir. I really
wish I was the Minister of Justice, Legal and Parliamentary Affairs. I have noted the concerns and they would be appropriately responded to. I would also appreciate it if the Hon. Member could put it in writing so that the relevant Minister, Hon. Vice President Mnangagwa could respond to that issue. Thank you very much.
HON. NDUNA: Mr. Speaker, I want in the same vein for the
Minister to carry – I know it falls under a separate line but under the Ministry of Justice, Legal and Parliamentary Affairs, the issue of the prosecutors. Their conditions are next to deplorable. They are not even close to their working conditions, including furniture, equipment and their offices.
THE TEMPORARY SPEAKER: Hon. Member, can you put
that one as a separate question in writing so that the Minister will respond to you.
DEDUCTION OF WORKERS SALARIES
- HON. MANGAMI asked the Minister of Public Service,
Labour and Social Services to:
(a) Explain why SSB has instituted deductions of the following Government workers salaries without any instructions to do so from the employees considering that they did not take loans from MacDowell Microfinance:
- Moses Hwata I.D. 26- 079 983 G-26, E.C. No. 0891780 A -
$100.00
- William Hamadziripi I.D. 26-101137 A -26, E.C. No. 092 011, deduction $240.00, ref 77704103367, year 2017 and
$100.00 thereafter.
- Innocent Magumise E.C. No. 0894709, March 2012,
$145.00, March 2017 $300.00.
- Mathias Nyama I.D. 26-112682 Z-26, E.C. No. 0196294M, deduction - $100.
- State what kind of action is going to be taken to have the deducted money reimbursed to these employees; and to further state whether the money will be reimbursed with interest.
THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE, LABOUR AND SOCIAL SERVICES (HON. ENG. MATANGAIDZE): Thank
you Mr. Speaker Sir. The four members completed the stop order forms authorizing Salary Service Bureau to deduct loans advanced to them by
McDowells International.
The members had entered into a contract with McDowells International wherein their loan applications were accepted. Pursuant to that, the members completed stop order forms to ensure repayment of their debt to McDowells International. The stop orders were submitted to SSB which processed according to the agreed terms.
The Ministry has since written to the Secretary General of the Progressive Teachers Union of Zimbabwe advising all affected teachers to engage McDowells International if they need to adjust the amount of money being deducted on their salaries. Mr. Speaker Sir, we have records of the schedule of all the agreed forms and the agreements that they signed. I thank you.
HON. MAJOME: I have a point of order.
THE TEMPORARY SPEAKER: What is your point of order?
HON. MAJOME: My point of order is that I am just concerned that there is a record of loan agreement between a private person and a financial lending institution. From the Hon. Minister’s response, he is going to attach the loan agreement and what they signed. I am just wondering in terms of ethics and confidentiality whether it would appear in the Hansard and everybody in the world can read that so and so borrowed $2 from so and so. Is there a way that it can be done without unnecessarily infringing on the privacy and confidentiality of people who want answers from Ministers?
HON. ENG. MATAINGAIDZE: Thank you Mr. Speaker Sir. I
do not think that as a Ministry we have any objection to the submission from Hon. Majome. So in that regard, I will submit my answer without the attendant details. Is that acceptable with the House?
HON. MANGAMI: Of course, I hear her concerns. In this case, there is a dispute where these members indicated that they would want some proof, whether it is their signatures and for those signatures to be verified. They are saying they did not have any loan agreement. Now that those signatures are part of the proof that they have signed when they have not. If they are given like that, they can assess to say are we the ones who have signed. I think for this particular case, I do not have any objection if they are included so that they would see or they can give me per se, to say are they the ones who signed. I am not sure but there must be some indication as to whether they can verify whether it is true that it is their signatures on this particular issue.
HON. ENG. MATANGAIDZE: Thank you Mr. Speaker Sir. I
think to address both concerns, what I will do as a Ministry is to put the answer without the attendant signed document but I will add on to say that should Hon. Mangami and the affected people feel that they want to come and have sight of the attendant documents; we have the attendant documents that they use to verify. I think that will address the issue.
THE TEMPORARY SPEAKER: Order, I think there will not be any problems since they approached the Hon. Member and they wanted their names to appear in the Press or whatever. So, I do not think there will be any harm on that because they preferred it that way. We cannot deny them as to what they feel the case should be dealt with.
*HON. NDUNA: I want to hear from the Minister whether there is any reason for civil servants salary to be garnished from SSB which the Public Service can accept? What is the reason for them to agree that there should be a stop order from SSB? Is there a reason so that they would allow SSB to have a stop order? Is it NSSA or if they are many, they should just tell us because people are losing their money from various organisations. I want to know if there are any reasons that the Public Service can agree that SSB should have a stop order.
*THE TEMPORARY SPEAKER: Hon. Member, the way you
are asking, I think the Minister might not be able to get your point and might not be able to answer you properly. I think what you want is the Minister to tell us the reason why SSB garnishes money for someone.
*HON. ENG. MATANGAIDZE: Thank you Mr. Speaker. What
causes civil servants to have their money deducted in stop orders is because that person goes and gets loans from loan sharks or banking institutions. They come into an agreement and sign a contract. So, the person who is giving out the loan is the one who agrees. They go to SSB and tell them that before your money gets into your account, I get my money. That is how they get into an agreement. When they agree, as the employer, there is no reason for us to refuse because they have agreed. The example that we had is that there are workers who would have agreed with their debtors. So SSB does not have the powers to just deduct money. It is an agreement between the two people and we effect that agreement. Thank you.
Hon. Nduna having stood up to debate.
* THE TEMPORARY SPEAKER: Order Hon. Member. The
Minister has really articulated. What is needed on this special case is that there should be an investigation because it looks like the signatures that are there are not theirs. So, the Hon. Minister is pleading that as a Ministry, you should investigate because the people are saying they did not sign to that. I think that is the issue.
*HON. ENG. MATANGAIDZE: Thank you Mr. Speaker Sir.
What we are saying is that the documents that SSB are using are in the public domain. So, the onus is on them to verify whether they are true. If it is not true, it means it is a question of fraud and that has to be investigated by the police, but the documents that SSB are using have been put in the public domain. They should go and investigate whether it is true or not.
*HON. ZINDI: Thank you Mr. Speaker. I have got this issue because the deductions that are being made on the workers – the
Minister tried to answer but I did not get it clearly. I want it to be clear. Does it mean that there is a law that the Ministry of Public Service who is the owner of the workers gives consent to the people who own the workers that put their signatures. If you look at the salaries of civil servants, they do not earn $500.00 and that is in the public domain. If someone has $240.00 being deducted from their salaries and there is NSSA and PAYE, how much do they take home looking at the amount of money that the worker would remain with that they would take home? *HON. ENG. MATANGAIDZE: Thank you Mr. Speaker Sir. If
you look at these organisations that give out loans, banks and microfinance institutes, they look at your pay slip to see if the money that you remain with, you will be able to survive on that after they have made their deductions. Even if they give you money, you can approach the bank and say you take everything but they do not agree. So, these financial institutions have got parameters on how they work and they have the maximum amounts that they can give you so that you can repay and also survive. Those are the agreements that they get into at that time.
* THE TEMPORARY SPEAKER: I think what Hon. Zindi is
trying to say is that yes, those who give out loans also check, but there are others who do not care how much the worker is remaining with. Is there protection for workers? That is what Hon. Zindi is asking. From your side as a Ministry, are you protecting the workers? These are people who want money, so they can end up just taking money. They do not look at whether the people will remain with a reasonable amount of money to live on.
*HON. ENG. MATANGAIDZE: Can I have the indulgence of
this House to that I go and investigate so that I will give you a proper answer next time.
An Hon. Member having stood up to ask a supplementary question.
THE TEMPORARY SPEAKER: Order Hon. Member. If the
Minister said he is going to do further consultations and research and come back, why should we have supplementary questions? I will not allow that – [AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible interjection.] – There is no more supplementary question to this.
MEASURES TO SUPPORT ZIMCARE TRUST SCHOOL
- HON. CHIGUDU asked the Minister of Public Service,
Labour and Social Services to inform the House of the measures the Ministry has put in place to support the ZIMCARE Trust School for the disabled and disadvantaged children in Masvingo in the form of food and blankets considering the fact that some parents have started withdrawing their children from the school in order to avert the challenges faced.
THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE, LABOUR AND SOCIAL SERVICES (HON. ENG. MATANGAIDZE): Thank
you Mr. Speaker Sir. The House is alive to the fact that the Ministry of Public Service, Labour and Social Welfare administers the Disabled
Persons Act (Chapter 17:01) and the Social Assistance Act (Chapter 17:06) meant to cater for the needs of persons living with disabilities and other vulnerable groups respectively.
Empowered by these Acts, the Government is mandated to register Disabled Persons Organisations, (DPOs) and institutions providing institutional care to persons with disabilities, thereby paving way to a multi-sectoral response to the plight of persons with disabilities. Mr. Speaker Sir, ZIMCARE Trust Schools for the disabled and disadvantaged children in Masvingo is an organisation registered under the Private Voluntary Organisations (PVO) Act (Chapter 17:05).
ZIMCARE Trust, as is with similar organisations, is there to complement Government efforts in social services delivery. That said, these organistions are assisted by the Government through the disbursement of grants as follows;
Administrative grants
Administrative grants are once off payments made to Non-
Governmental Organisations (NGOs) offering services to persons with disabilities to assist in their daily administrative operations. The grants are paid out on a yearly basis. As we speak, a total of US$12 150 was disbursed on the 18th of July, 2017 to ZIMCARE Trust Head Office as administrative grant for the year 2017.
Per Capita
Government also supports persons with disabilities in institutions with per capita grants to cater for the upkeep of inmates in the institution. As such, the institution is paid US$15 per inmate per month upon claim. The 2017 claims are being processed for payment for all institutions which cater for persons with disabilities.
It remains the Government’s responsibility to provide social
services to persons with disabilities, especially those in institutions. As such Mr. Speaker Sir, the Government made sure that most of the donations of rice and maize that were coming under the food mitigation programme were channeled towards the care of inmates in various institutions including ZIMCARE Trust organisations. I thank you.
*HON. NDUNA: On a point of order Mr. Speaker. Before you took up your seat, there was a discussion which was held which is of a security nature. I remember a time when I came across some soldiers who did not receive any finance from their pay slips and they were disadvantaged because the money had been deducted by the money lenders. If military personnel are deprived of their money, then there is a problem and it becomes a security risk. I am asking this august House to make a ruling that the only amount which should be deducted from military personnel is 10% so that they do not have zero payment on their pay slips.
*HON. PHIRI: Thank you Mr. Speaker. My question is a follow up on a question raised by Hon. Chigudu. I remember that there was the Zimbabwe Vulnerability Assessment Committee (ZimVAC), which was established for the sake of assisting the people who were in poverty and mainly were in starvation. These vulnerable groups were getting assistance in the form of food. They include school children, the disabled and the aged. However, we noticed that people in urban areas have not been paid and this has been happening for some time. My question is, why are the aged and vulnerable groups in urban areas not benefitting? We have approached the District Administrators and other personnel who responded that the ZimVAC Report which was done did not include the urban people who are vulnerable and yet they are equally poverty stricken.
HON. ENG. MATANGAIDZE: Thank you Mr. Speaker Sir. It
may not look like a supplementary but a new question. However, I will respond. When we make ZimVAC research, we made two researches, one is based on rural areas and the other based on urban areas. So, we have since submitted the ZimVAC reports on rural areas. As I speak, the ZimVAC report on rural areas has already been submitted and it is under review by the Cabinet. They are checking on its authenticity and some areas which may want some corrections on this report.
The ZimVAC urban report has now passed because we are now into a new era. I think that by the end of the year, you will notice that we will be distributing food to the vulnerable groups in Chegutu and Kadoma because we were doing some ad hoc responses which made us give assistance where it was urgently needed. Therefore, we are now awaiting the new ZimVAC report. As stated before, the only ZimVAC report which is under scrutiny is the rural ZimVAC report which can be actioned as soon as it is scrutinised. I thank you.
*HON. PHIRI: Thank you Mr. Speaker, we thank the Minister for giving us such a response, especially on the food which was allocated to the vulnerable in urban areas. I remember that in urban areas, we distributed rice in those areas. My request is, the Minister should give us a breakdown of what was allocated to those urban areas and the people who benefitted.
*THE TEMPORARY SPEAKER: Your question is now and not
within the question which had been asked and you are now digressing further than expected.
PLANS TO CATER FOR THE VULNERABLE CHILDREN’S
SCHOOL FEES IN PRIMARY AND SECONDARY SCHOOLS
- HON. ZHOU asked the Minister of Public Service, Labour and Social Services to inform the House the Ministry’s plans to cater for the vulnerable children’s school fees in primary and secondary schools since BEAM programme does not cover them.
THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE, LABOUR AND SOCIAL SERVICES (HON. ENG. MATANGAIDZE): Thank
you Mr. Speaker Sir.
HON. ZINDI: On a point of order Mr. Speaker. I do not see Hon.
Zhou.
THE TEMPORARY SPEKER: He is there.
HON. ZINDI: Sorry, my apologies, I withdraw.
HON. ENG. MATANGAIDZE: Thank you Mr. Speaker Sir. I was proceeding to give our response. It is one of Government’s major objectives to ensure that the vulnerable children so alluded to, fully enjoy their rights to education. This has been done through the basic Education Assistance Module BEAM, which is a social intervention programme that was established as a social safety net that would ensure access to education for vulnerable children. As such, BEAM does not discriminate but benefits all vulnerable children, including those with disabilities. In order to increase transparency and access by vulnerable children, the operational manual for the BEAM programme was reviewed in 2016 and is since giving good values.
Other than BEAM Mr. Speaker Sir, orphans and vulnerable children committed in alternative care facilities including those under foster care have their school fees and school uniforms provided for using the Children in Difficult Circumstances Fund which is provided by the Government of Zimbabwe through the Ministry of Finance and
Economic Development. There are also a number of civil society organisations that complement Government efforts by providing educational support to vulnerable children.
Government will continue to prioritise- resources permitting, funding of these important programmes.
ALLOCATION OF LAND AROUND TOKWE-MUKORSI DAM
- HON. MANGAMI asked the Minister of Environment, Water and Climate whether Tokwe-Mukorsi Dam has been allocated land around it as a green belt in order to protect it from siltation, and possibly destruction and if so, how many hectares.
THE MINISTER OF ENVIRONMENT, WATER AND
CLIMATE (HON. MUCHINGURI): Thank you Mr. Speaker, I would
like to thank Hon. Mangami for the question.
The country’s ecosystems such as wetlands, mountain ecosystems, rivers, dams and lakes are under serious threat from unsustainable human practices. The environment, despite its importance in supporting human livelihood and the economy continues to suffer at the expense of development. To manage these and other sensitive ecosystems, my Ministry ensures that green belts are maintained. Green belts are a buffer zone to protect fragile eco systems or surrounding communities from externalities that may arise from a project.
In the case of river systems and dams, these are green areas that are maintained in order to ensure minimal human interference with the ecosystem and prevent urban spill into the catchment. Dam catchments are fragile in nature and are characterised by unstable soils that if disturbed, they are easily washed into the dam, causing siltation.
Mr. Speaker, a belt covering 49 000 hectares was gazetted on the 12th of July, 1964 and earmarked around Tokwe-Mukorsi to maintain the dam. However, in order to protect the dam from siltation, vices such as overgrazing, stream bank cultivation and others need to be curbed. For this reason, our conservation practices go beyond just dam’s greenbelt, but we will look at the whole catchment area.
Mr. Speaker Sir, my Ministry has put in place an afforestation programme to enhance vegetation density and diversity around dams and other sensitive areas. The active conservation of indigenous trees is happening in most parts of the dam’s catchment area where individual households and schools are trained in order to manage trees around their homesteads and in cropping fields.
A biogas project is also under implementation in Ward 2 to supplement energy from firewood. In 2016, my Ministry, through the Forestry Commission collaborated with SAFIRE and Care Zimbabwe to train communities in Ward 16 of Chivi district in the moulding and use of tsotso stoves to reduce the amount of firewood used in cooking and heating, hence conserving trees. The training is currently being expanded to cover all the other wards in the Tokwe-Mukorsi dam catchment area and beyond.
In addition, community projects aimed at mechanically removing lantana camara, an invasive plant species that had invaded 30 hectares of land downstream of the Tokwe-Mukorsi dam wall are being implemented. To date, a total of 15 hectares has been cleared. Lantana camara out competes native species, blocking natural succession processes, thereby reducing bio-diversity.
Furthermore Mr. Speaker Sir, to protect the dam from siltation, my Ministry is establishing consolidated community gardens and woodlots outside the greenbelt in order to curb stream bank cultivation and tree cutting as communities seek to use tree branches as brushwood to fence off their gardens. There are also several ongoing environmental conservation programmes and a research project being undertaken in Wards 2. 3, 11, 12, 16, 22, 25. 26, 28, 30 and 31 of Chivi District as well as all the wards of Mapanzure communal areas of Masvingo District.
I am also implementing land restoration projects that include gully reclamation within the belt. I have noted that communities within the dam’s catchment have not put in place conservation works. As such, I have engaged the Ministry of Agriculture, Mechanisation and Irrigation Development to ensure that conservation works are constructed. My Ministry is also conducting environmental awareness campaigns to communities adjacent to the greenbelts in order to improve management of the environment in these areas.
To prevent veldt fires, communities around the belt have been trained on fire management and fire fighting committees are in place. It is envisaged that the engagement of traditional leaders done will see a reduction in the occurrence of veldt fires in the catchment.
In conclusion, Mr Speaker Sir, it is my sincere hope that all other relevant Ministries will participate in our endeavour to protect and sustainably manage the natural resources within the belt. The Tokwe Mukorsi dam has potential to boost community livelihood and the Zimbabwean economy if well managed. As we speak, my Ministry is spearheading an inter-ministerial process which seeks to develop a national framework which guides and captures all the anchor activities that will form the Tokwe-Mukorsi Development Master Plan. We are consulting with all key stakeholders to ensure that all our people get benefit from this national asset.
When ready we expect this plan to dovetail with the national vision espoused in the ZIM ASSET – “Towards and Empowered Society and a
Growing Economy”. I thank you.
REHABILITATION OF DAMS IN MBERENGWA NORTH
CONSTITUENCY
- HON. ZHOU asked the Minister of Environment, Water and
Climate to:
- indicate when the following dams in Mberengwa North
Constituency will be rehabilitated:
- Gambure Dam in Ward 15
- Fata Dan in Ward 16
- Neta Dam in Ward 36
- indicate when the planned dam construction (Rusharumwe) in Vumukwana – Danga Ward 16 will commence.
THE MINISTER OF ENVIRONMENT, WATER AND
CLIMATE (HON. MUCHINGURI): The Government through the
Ministry of Environment, Water and Climate is aware of the effects of Climate Change and increasing rainfall variability in Zimbabwe as shown by the perennial droughts over the years, followed by the two contrasting consecutive rainfall seasons of 2015/16 and that of 2016/17.
In this regard, my Ministry is cognisant of the urgent need to build resilience within our communities through rainwater harvesting. This is why the Government has embarked on the Command Water Harvesting Programme whose goal is to enhance water security in our rural communities.
This programme is targeting every ward in the country and has the following components
- Construction of weirs and small dams; ii.Desilting of reservoirs and rivers; iii.Rehabilitation of breached dams; iv.Wastewater recycling;
- Rooftop or rock outcrop rainwater harvesting.
The financing model for the programme has been dictated by the current financial constraints Government is facing, and thus calls for partnerships between Government and the local communities supported by the local traditional and political leadership. ZINWA would provide all the required technical expertise.
As part of the roll out of the programme, the Ministry, through ZINWA has compiled an inventory of all flood damaged infrastructure that includes community dams and water supply stations. Gambure Dam in Ward 15, Fata Dam in Ward 16 and Neta Dam in Ward 36 which are in Mberengwa District, Midlands Province are on that list and their rehabilitation as I have already indicated, will be funded through a partnership between Government and the local communities. I need to point out however, that the number of dams and water supply stations that need rehabilitation are in excess of 300 and the estimated cost of rehabilitation is some $67 million. I thank you.
HON. RUNGANI: I move that time for Questions with Notice be extended.
HON. GONESE: I second.
Motion put and agreed to.
BOOKS FOR MPOSI HIGH SCHOOL IN MBERENGWA NORTH
CONSTITUENCY
- HON. ZHOU asked the Minister of Primary and Secondary Education to:
- State when the Ministry will equip Mposi High School in Mberengwa North Constituency Ward 16 with books.
- State when Vumukwana Secondary School in Mberengwa
North Constituency, Ward 16 would be constructed.
THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF PRIMARY AND
SECONDARY EDUCATION (HON. PROF MAVIMA): With regard
to that first part of the question, the Ministry if aware of the situation in some schools concerning the shortage of learning and teaching materials. When we attained Independence in 1980 there were only 157 secondary schools in the whole country. With the massive growth in the education sector, the current figure for secondary schools stands at 2 775. It has become difficult for the Ministry to provide the schools with learning materials. The School Development Committees (SDCs) have been given the power to develop and equip their schools. This does not necessarily mean that the Ministry of Primary and Secondary Education is not worried about equipping the schools.
In 2011, the Ministry, through the Education Development Fund supplied all schools both primary and secondary with teaching and learning materials that included textbooks and science equipment and Mposi was a beneficiary. The District Schools inspector has so far not received any complaint from the school about the shortage of textbooks.
With regards to the second part of the question which states when
Vumukwana Secondary School in Mberengwa North Constituency,
Ward 16, would be constructed, in response, Vumukwana Secondary School is not shown in our records as existing. The district schools inspector is not aware of any plans to construct Vumukwana Secondary School.
However, there is Vumukwana Primary School whose learners are enrolled at Mposi Secondary School after they complete primary education. It is therefore, maybe that there is no authority to construct at the district level, Vumukwana Secondary School.
HON. T. ZHOU: Thank you Hon. Speaker. Learners have to move 10 km to move from Mposi to Vumukwana. As a Ministry, what are you doing to construct schools so that learners do not travel such long distances?
HON. PROF. MAVIMA: As a Ministry, the policy regarding the
construction of schools in rural areas is supposed to be done by local authorities. We usually follow the request from the villagers in those areas. The Ministry cannot just bump in and start constructing a school without the concurrence of the local authority and local villagers. Hence, if there are people in these areas, once new schools are constructed, the protocol is that the request is sent through the regional education inspectorate who will come and make the necessary research and inquiries so that they verify the need for such an institution, hence it will be constructed if there is need.
WRITTEN SUBMISSIONS TO QUESTIONS WITH NOTICE
ALLOWANCES AND BENEFITS FOR THE CARETAKER
COMMISSION IN CHITUNGWIZA
- HON. SITHOLE asked the Minister of Local Government,
Public Works and National Housing to disclose to the House the allowances and benefits that the Caretaker Commission for Chitungwiza is getting.
THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT, PUBLIC WORKS AND NATIONAL HOUSING (HON.
CHINGOSHO): I would like to thank the Hon. Member for asking the question. However, let me inform this august House that the allowances for the Caretaker Commission are governed by Circular Number 12 of 2016 of the Urban Councils Act which perked allowances for the Mayor at $600 and Deputy Mayor at $400 per month for a municipality like Chitungwiza. Furthermore, they are entitled to lunch of $20 whenever they are at the City Council.
BILL TO ENSURE COMPLIANCE WITH SECTION 301 OF THE
CONSTITUTION
- HON. SITHOLE asked the Minister of Local Government,
Public Works and National Housing to explain to the House when the Ministry will bring to Parliament a bill that ensures that Section 301 of the Constitution is compiled with in terms of the improvement in the revenue collected by the local authorities.
THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT,
PUBLIC WORKS AND NATIONAL HOUSING (HON.
CHINGOSHO): I take note and acknowledge that Section 301 (3) of the Constitution provides that “not less than five per cent of the national revenue raised in any financial year must be allocated to the provinces and local authorities as their share in a year”. Mr. Speaker Sir, may I inform the House that the Ministry of Finance and Economic Development is responsible for coming up with the relevant Act of
Parliament.
On the motion of HON. RUNGANI seconded by HON.
MANGAMI, the House adjourned at Five o’clock p.m.
PARLIAMENT OF ZIMBABWE
Tuesday, 25th July, 2017
The National Assembly met at a Quarter-past Two O’clock p.m.
PRAYERS
(THE HON. SPEAKER in the Chair)
ANNOUNCEMENTS BY THE HON. SPEAKER
SWEARING OF A NEW MEMBER
THE HON. SPEAKER: On the 17th of July, 2017, Parliament received communication from the Zimbabwe Electoral Commission on the election of the following member of ZANU PF party as member of the National Assembly with effect from the 16th July, 2017; Hon. Brown
Ndlovu representing Chiwundura Constituency;
Section 128 (1) of the Constitution of Zimbabwe provides that before a Member of Parliament takes his or her seat in Parliament, the member must take the oath of a Member of Parliament in the form set out in the third schedule. Section 128 (2) states that the oath must be taken before the Clerk of Parliament.
I, therefore, call upon the Clerk of Parliament to administer the oath of a Member of Parliament.
NEW MEMBER SWORN
HON. BROWN NDLOVU subscribed to the Oath of Loyalty as required by the Law and took his seat – [HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.] –
MEETING OF ZIPAH MEMBERS
THE HON. SPEAKER: I have to inform the House that the Zimbabwe Parliamentarians on HIV and AIDS (ZIPAH) Executive invites all ZIPAH Members to a brief meeting on Wednesday, 26th July,
2017 at 1200 hours in the Government Caucus Room.
INVITATION TO A CATHOLIC CHURCH SERVICE THE HON. SPEAKER: I also wish to inform the House that there will be a Catholic Service tomorrow, Wednesday, 26th of July, 2017 at 1200 hours in the Senate Chamber. All Members who are Catholic and non Catholics are invited.
MOTION
2016 ANNUAL BUDGET REVIEW AND THE 2017 ECONOMIC
OUTLOOK STATEMENT
First Order read: Adjourned debate on motion on the 2016 Annual
Budget Review and the 2017 Economic Outlook Statement.
Question again proposed.
HON. CROSS: The half yearly review of the performance of the
Budget by the Minister last week was a very important occasion for the House. It gave us an opportunity to review what Government has been doing with our resources in the past six months. For me, the most important feature of the Budget was the very substantial budget deficit in 2016. At the beginning of 2016, we started out with an approved Budget which provided for a deficit in the Budget of $140m. The final outturn was $1.4bn. Mr. Speaker Sir, that is equivalent to 30 per cent of the Budget. I believe that the IMF guidelines provide for a maximum of 5 per cent. It points out to the fact that we are so far outside…
THE HON. SPEAKER: Order! Hon. Member, I hesitate to send any Hon. Member outside. I repeat at the back there, can you hold your own and listen please.
HON. CROSS: We are so far outside the parameters indicated to us by the IMF during the reengagement process that I cannot help but come to the conclusion that this process is virtually dead.
Of great concern is that we started 2017 with a projected budget deficit of $400m and in fact, we now believe that it will exceed US$1, 6
billion. This relates to a whole lot of unbudgeted expenditure, over expenditure in certain particular special areas. Mr. Speaker we cannot go on spending money recklessly like this. In fact, this brings back memories of the situation in 2007/2008 when the Reserve Bank, using its unauthorized rights as a quasi fiscal agency of Government, was printing money in order to finance a massive Government deficit and to try and keep the economy going. The consequences of that were the total destruction of our Zimbabwe dollar, of all savings in the country for more than a hundred years and the closure of the majority of our industries.
Mr. Speaker, whether we like it or not, we are going back to 2008. The consequences are that, if we are not careful, we will face a similar collapse in the country if we do not heed warnings. The question which we are faced with as a House is what do we do, because the budget does not need tampering with, it needs major surgery? We have to, we do not have any choice, and we have to reduce expenditure on salaries to lesser than 60% of our revenue.
Mr. Speaker, that could be achieved quite easily by simply cancelling allowances to civil servants. In fact, if we cancel the allowances to civil servants we could increase salaries. The reality is that allowances are not taxed, and salaries are. This could increase the tax revenue to the State and it would bring our expenditure on personnel down below the threshold of 60%.
Mr. Speaker, in addition to this, we have to re-examine our priorities in terms of expenditure overall. We have to recognise that we have to cut our suit to match our cloths. This means that we have to recognise that our revenues have been running at about US$3, 5 billion and we have been spending US$4, 8 billion. Expenditure this year could exceed US$5 billion and there is absolutely no growth in revenues. So, in the Budget and Finance Committee of the House, we have been looking at the possibility of consolidating revenue into the Consolidated Revenue Fund, as required by the Constitution. We have said on numerous occasions, that if we did that, it would increase revenues under the CRF to something like US$5 billion a year, because we are currently allocating through these funds which are not consolidated into the CRF, about US$850 million a year.
In addition, for some four years now, we have pointed out that if you look at the customs revenue from our border posts, we are collecting less than 5% of our import and export trade in the form of customs duties. Mr. Speaker that is a ridiculous figure, and it points to massive leakages at the border posts on a scale which simply staggers the imagination. Last year, we imported US$1, 4 billion worth of motor vehicles. If you take the customs duty on that alone, it exceeds $600 million, more than double the total customs revenue on all trade. This suggests to me Mr. Speaker that we should be able to push our border revenue from US$384 million a year, to something approaching a billion, without affecting any other sectors of the Zimbabwean economy.
Such an exercise would boost our domestic manufacturing industry very substantially. It would boost our agricultural industry because importers would be required to pay the full import duties on such imports. By not paying attention to these elements, we have a catastrophe on our hands in terms of the fiscal situation. The Minister did his best to put a brave face on this, but there is no doubt in my mind that what we have got now is simply not sustainable, even in a short term, and we have to do something urgently about this.
Accordingly, Mr. Speaker Sir, the Finance Committee has asked the Parliamentary Budget Office to review the Minister’s statement and prepare a paper for us for consideration when we return to the House in
September, which will give us some idea of the magnitude of this year’s public deficit and how it can be addressed. I think when this paper comes to the House, we will have to consider it carefully and then make positive recommendations to the Minister and then ask the Minister to review what he is proposing for 2018. I know the process has started, but I believe we have to take urgent action to correct matters in our fiscal affairs.
Another concern of mine with regards to the Minister’s statement is that he did not reveal to the House the full extent of our domestic borrowings. He made no reference to the overdraft at the Reserve Bank, or the debts which we are incurring in various parts of Government which are not reflected in his calculations of Treasury Bill liabilities. I believe, Mr. Speaker, that our domestic debt now approaches the extent of our external debt.
THE HON. SPEAKER: Order, order! Hon. Chipanga, order!
HON. MUNENGAMI: On a point of order! We do not even know what is happening because the Hon. Member is debating but everybody is just walking up and down…
THE HON. SPEAKER: Hon. Chief Whip, can you put order in your house please! - [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] Order, order Hon. Cross.
HON. CROSS: Thank you Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker I believe there are two issues. The question of the fiscal deficit and the growth in domestic borrowings are the two key issues we have to address in the budget discussion this year. On the positive side, I just want to report to the House that yesterday I held a discussion with some young maize growers and learnt of four growers this season who have grown over 20 tonnes per hectare in maize production. I just want to point out that that is a huge yield of maize and, in my view, shows what we can do as a country if we work together. I thank you.
HON. NDUNA: Thank you Mr. Speaker for giving me this opportunity to debate on the 2016 Annual Budget Review. Mr. Speaker Sir, it is my thinking that to complement and augment the efforts of the Hon. Minister of Finance and Economic Development, we need to make sure that we review some Acts and legislation, in particular the Mines and Minerals Act. I think it is way overdue and we have been told that it is still coming, so that we can optimally know that we can go from 10 tonnes for the small scale miners, maybe to 28 tonnes as has been envisaged in this year.
The other issue that I want to touch on is the 2017 national budget theme that speaks to and about the domestic resource mobilisation and utilisation to couple it with the annual review process of the 2016 annual budget Mr. Speaker Sir – [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] –
THE HON. SPEAKER: Order, order Hon. Wadyajena, please, may you now stop perambulating? Hon. Nduna, you may proceed.
HON. NDUNA: Thank you Mr. Speaker Sir, I was just trying to get the attention of the ICT people, so that they may increase the speaker volume a bit – [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] –
Mr. Speaker Sir, what I touched on in particular on the Mines and Minerals Act is very key, so that it can couple and augment the efforts of the Hon. Minister of Finance and Economic Development this year. So that what occurred in 2016, as we review it, we can only look forward in terms of upping review generation from our own God given natural resources. I see the efforts that the Hon. Minister of Mines and Mining Development is engaged in, in terms of capacitating the small scale miners. It can only be augmented and bolstered by legislation, as long as it comes here and we repeal it to empower our formerly marginalised black majority.
The second issue that I want to touch on is the establishment of the Special Economic Zones, which Bill has gone through Parliament and been assented into an Act by His Excellency the President. Now that we have a board in place, it is my fervent view that we can build up on that Act, use the Special Economic Zone Act as a springboard in order to enhance our economic benefit as a nation. I am aware that one of the conditions, in particular, that I called for as the mover of this motion in this House in September of 2015, was 100% capital repatriation plus profits. As long as we do not carry out business in these geographical locations, we cannot emancipate and revitalize our economy. It is my clarion call that if there can be an expeditious establishment of these Special Economic Zones in the identified geographical locations, we can quickly economically benefit the nation and make sure that this so said $4.5 billion economy can go up to a $10.5 billion or even a $50 billion economy, as long as we put out policies in place and make sure that we follow up in terms of implementation.
The third issue that I want to speak about, which I should have coupled with the first one, is the issue of the 30 million raw chrome exports in terms of permission that it has been granted in Cabinet. It would have been my view that if the Minister had said how much it is that we have exported to date and how much we still need to export in order to realise profit. This is how we can benefit from our own God given natural resources.
As I conclude, the issue of ICT can really not be over-emphasized. The Hon. Minister alluded on the need to embrace ICT in order to have a spike in revenue generation and to curb revenue leakages and illicit outflows. So it is in that regard that I also urge him on in order to embrace ICT, to emancipate and augment the efforts of revitalizing our economy. I thank you.
THE VICE PRESIDENT AND MINISTER OF JUSTICE,
LEGAL AND PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (HON. E. D.
MNANGAGWA): Thank you Mr. Speaker Sir. I have not closed the debate. It can continue for the next three days on this issue of the
Budget review presented by the Minister of Finance and Economic Development. Just now, I believe that Hon. Members will agree with me that for the first time we gave this House and Hon. Members adequate time since they requested to debate the amendment. Mr.
Speaker Sir, I therefore seek that the current debate on Order of the Day, Number 1 be adjourned until Order of the Day, Number 3 has been disposed of.
THE HON. SPEAKER: Just a second.
HON. E. D. MNANGAGWA: Mr. Speaker Sir, I am advised that
I was not clear by the Clerk of Parliament. I moved that the debate be adjourned. Perhaps, I made two steps instead of one step at a time. The first step is that I move that the debate be now adjourned.
HON. GONESE: Thank you Mr. Speaker Sir. You have asked
whether there is debate on the motion to adjourn the debate at this particular point in time. That is what I have risen to debate because if you ask for debate ...
THE HON. SPEAKER: I have recognised you.
HON. GONESE: Thank you for recognising me Mr. Speaker. The reason why I am not agreeable to the motion to adjourn the debate at this particular point is because we have before us a very important debate. If you look at the Public Finance Management Act, it actually obliges the Minister of Finance and Economic Development to lay before Parliament an annual review of the performance of the Budget, which is what he did on Thursday. As a result Mr. Speaker Sir, we have that debate before us today.
As you noted Mr. Speaker, there are Members who had risen to contribute to that particular debate and I believe Mr. Speaker Sir, that it is a very important and crucial matter and you do not want that to be overtaken by events. You want the debate to be done when it is still relevant. We have no problems to have the third motion to be deliberated upon after conclusion of the debate of the first motion. It was within the powers of the Executive to have come on time if they had wanted to prioritise Order of the Day, Number 3. They were not here and as a result, the Clerk read the First Order of the Day and Members geared themselves. We have got Members who had meticulously prepared to give their views today. We do not want to have a scenario Mr. Speaker Sir, where what they had prepared is subsequently overtaken by events.
Mr. Speaker, I am sure you are cognizant that we are likely to adjourn at the end of this week. For that reason, I submit that the motion by the Hon. Vice President has come at an inopportune time. That is not the opportune time and for that reason, I believe that let us give those Members who are ready to debate and only when those Members who had already risen in their seats, once they are done, we can have the debate adjourned. For that reason Mr. Speaker Sir, I want to reiterate that at this point in time, it is imperative that we proceed with the matter which is already under consideration until such time as those Members who are willing and ready to debate have done so; then we can adjourn the debate. That is my submission Mr. Speaker Sir.
HON. E. D. MNANGAGWA: Mr. Speaker Sir, before you may
make your ruling to the request by the Chief Whip of the Opposition, it is not correct that had we come in at the opening of Parliament, we would automatically have gone to item Number 3 of today’s Order Paper. Parliament properly debated and is debating the First Order of the Day. By my moving the adjournment, we are not concluding the debate on the First Order of the Day – [HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.] – I have said Mr. Speaker Sir, I am only moving the adjournment. The debate will continue for as many days and as many speakers may want –
[HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.] –
I am appealing to Hon. Members that after adjourning the debate, Order of the Day Number 2 is stood over until Order Number 3 is concluded. We may then move back to Order Number One – [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] - This is because of other engagements that are pressing on Members of the Executive. I so move Mr. Speaker Sir and I am so certain that when you put the question, the majority agreed with the adjournment of the debate.
HON. ADV. CHAMISA: On a point of order Hon. Speaker.
Parliament, Hon. Speaker Sir, is a House of rules; it is a House of procedure. You have asked for debate from Members. I think it is out of regularity for the Hon. Vice President, on behalf of the Executive to then seek to withdraw the rights of Members to debate the adjournment. It is the adjournment that is debated. I think it is within our right to debate that adjournment. So, Hon. Speaker Sir, if you may also protect
Parliament and Parliamentarians from the predatory instincts of the Executive.
There is debate and that debate, as a point of order, has to be undertaken. We cannot have a situation whereby debate is supposed to be undertaken, the Hon. Vice President rises to then seek to quash that debate. That cannot be acceptable. That is terrorism of the highest order and it cannot be allowed – [HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.] –
Hon. Speaker Sir, let us allow debate on this aspect of adjournment. Ultimately, we will then have to make a decision upon Members having debated because this Parliament is supposed to be a deliberative House wherein we debate issues. It is not supposed to be a ping pong with the Vice President. Allow us Hon. Speaker Sir to debate these issues before we even go to what he wants us to do. We will ultimately vote and vote we shall but we cannot be forced or frog marched into voting because they want to rush somewhere. They must wait for us as Parliamentarians – [HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.] – We cannot and we will not allow that. If they have other things to do, let them proceed wherever they want to go Hon. Speaker Sir. We want debate here. We cannot be allowed to be harassed or to be abused by the
Executive. Hon. Speaker Sir...
Hon. Vice President Mnangagwa having stood up to debate.
HON. ADV. CHAMISA: I still have the floor Hon. Speaker Sir. I
like it when...
THE HON. SPEAKER: Can you conclude your point of order?
HON. ADV. CHAMISA: Thank you so much. I like it. Let me conclude by saying my point of order has to be concluded in style. Hon. Speaker Sir, there is no need for us to jump, skip or in any way subvert the procedures of our Parliament and I enjoin you Hon. Speaker Sir, to make sure that we uphold, not just the Constitution, but also our Standing Orders and Rules because that is the sole purpose of that esteemed chair that you occupy. Thank you very much Hon. Speaker
Sir.
THE HON. SPEAKER: Order, in your point of order you used the words ‘the act of terrorism’, can you withdraw that one?
HON. ADV. CHAMISA: I hear you Hon. Speaker Sir. You are saying I have to withdraw the word...
THE HON. SPEAKER: Yes, ‘the act of terrorism.’
HON. ADV. CHAMISA: Hon. Speaker Sir,...
THE HON. SPEAKER: I am sure you could do better than that.
HON. ADV. CHAMISA: I hear you. To please you, I seek to offend no man.
THE HON. SPEAKER: No, you do not please me. You do not
please the Chair, you please etiquette.
HON. ADV. CHAMISA: That is correct Hon. Speaker Sir. If it pleases you Hon. Chair, those words shall stand withdrawn. Thank you.
THE HON. SPEAKER: Thank you. Order, order! The debate should only be about whether the debate should be adjourned and nothing else, and then I will make a ruling.
HON. MARIDADI: Mr. Speaker, I realise that the House is full this afternoon and we have...
THE HON. SPEAKER: What is your debate? Can you go to the debate?
HON. MARIDADI: I realise that this House is full this afternoon and we have all Government Ministers even those that are strange to this
House. I think the motive...
THE HON. SPEAKER: Can you debate the adjournment please?
HON. MARIDADI: Yes, the motive to adjourn is motivated by the fact that we have all Ministers here who are busy with other things elsewhere. Mr. Speaker, I want to appeal to you that if Ministers are not happy to sit and listen to us debating the budget, they are free to leave and go and do those other things and we remain to debate the budget. –
[HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.]-
We cannot indulge the Executive because we want to vote and we want to please them. We have a very important motion before us. We are debating how money is used in Government and how money should be allocated to Ministries. I think that should take precedent over and above everything else. Ministers are free to and to do their business and when they have time to come, they can come and then we do the voting. As of now, we want to continue with the debate of the budget. Thank you Mr.
Speaker.
THE VICE PRESIDENT AND MINISTER OF JUSTICE,
LEGAL AND PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (HON. E.
MNANGAGWA): Mr. Speaker Sir, Tuesday is Government business day. Item No. 1, Item No. 2 and Item No. 3 are Government business. I am Leader of Government business and I set priority as to what must be debated. I have adjourned Government business on Item No. 1, not closing it but adjourning it so that we dispose of Government business on Item No. 3. I so move.
HON. GONESE: Thank you Mr. Speaker...
THE HON. SPEAKER: Order, order! You are the last one to debate the adjournment. – [HON MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] - I am on the Chair.
HON. GONESE: I am rising on a matter of privilege Mr. Speaker. In response to what the Hon. Vice President has said which I believe cannot be correct. My take is that the order we are debating is
Government business and that is appreciated and there can be no debate about that. The point is that once a debate has commenced, any motion for adjournment is subject to the same rules. – [AN HON. MEMBER:
We can divide the House.] - No, we cannot start by dividing because there are members who want to debate.
Mr. Speaker Sir, the point that I am making is procedural. There is a lot of noise...
THE HON. SPEAKER: Just a second Hon. Gonese and please
take your seat.
HON. GONESE: Alright.
THE HON. SPEAKER: You may continue.
HON. GONESE: The point I wanted to emphasise is that I have got some difficulty in appreciating the manner in which the Hon. Vice
President is approaching this matter. For me, when we are in this august House, we should be governed by rules, processes and more importantly, we should be governed by due process. The fact that something is Government business does not give the Leader of Government business the unfettered discretion to just do as he pleases at any particular point in time.
The procedures in this august House are that when you have asked for debate, the debate must be exhausted. What has been happening is that the Hon. Vice President is not waiting to see whether there are other members who want to debate. We have got members on this side of the House who wanted to debate that adjournment, only for the Vice President to rise on his feet and immediately respond without giving you an opportunity to check whether there are other members. We abide by your ruling that we are only debating the adjournment.
After Hon. Chamisa debated, that debate has not yet been exhausted, only on the adjournment. After Hon. Maridadi, we only have to check whether there are any other members who want to debate that particular point under consideration, and only if there are none, can the Vice President respond. I do not agree that at any moment, the Hon. Vice President can say that because I am the Leader of Government business, I then determine. Once something is under consideration, it is subject to the same rules.
If you want to adjourn a debate, you do not simply come and say no, I am the Leader of Government business and I am stopping this debate. That is why you move a motion. Our rules have made that provision that you move a motion and when you move a motion, whoever is in the Chair asks whether there is any debate on that motion. For that reason Mr. Speaker Sir, as a matter of procedure, let us first of all exhaust the debate and only when we have exhausted the debate on the adjournment, can we then move to the next step.
The Hon. Vice President has jumped the gun by trying to prematurely close the debate. So, I say the debate cannot and must not be prematurely closed. It can only be closed when it has been exhausted.
That is my matter of privilege which I have raised Mr. Speaker.
THE HON. SPEAKER: What I noticed is repetition and this House cannot listen to repetition unless you come up with something fresh, I will allow debate, otherwise I shall rule against any further debate on the adjournment.
HON. MLISWA: Thank you Mr. Speaker Sir. I think this is a time when a voice of reason for an independent thinker should come to fruition. I do understand that the Hon. Vice President wanted the debate adjourned and I think the opposition objected to that, which is equally fair. However, I think we must be progressive too. I wish that we really count the amount of time we are spending in debating this when the outcome is obvious – [HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.] – the majority will have their say and the minority will have their own.
My appeal is, while the opposition objects, I think it is true that there is a debate and it must be there but no one is saying the debate is not going to continue. The Hon. Vice President is saying the debate will continue, but with due respect, Parliament has been attacking the
Executive for not coming. Today they are here – [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] – Mr. Speaker, the debate of the Budget Review is very important and by no way has anybody said it is not important. I think it is about us being progressive so that we do not waste time. Mr. Speaker, ultimately, you are sitting there with all powers invested in
you. As the Chair, the Standing Rules and Orders are very clear in terms of the position you must take. As such, I implore you to make a decision so that progress can be made because this is a sheer waste of time.
Thank you – [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] –
THE HON. SPEAKER: Order, order. This debate may continue ad infinitum. The issue before us is that the first Order has not been concluded, it has merely been stood over and there will be ample time to debate it, which is very important – (An Hon. Member having been speaking whilst the Hon. Speaker was speaking) – I do not want to throw you out Hon. Member please. I respect you and you should respect the Chair. We cannot debate ad infinitum on the question whether we should debate the adjournment or not. So, it is my ruling that I shall put the question and there shall not be any further debate on the adjournment.
HON. GONESE: Divide the House – [HON. MEMBERS:
Inaudible interjections.] –
THE HON. SPEAKER: Order, order.
HON. GONESE: I challenge your ruling Mr. Speaker. If I challenge your ruling, I am entitled…
THE HON. SPEAKER: Order, order. We should not play gymnastics here. You want the House to be divided? – [HON.
MEMBERS:Yes.] – and the statistics is so clear that in terms of numbers – [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] – order, order. I am saying that it is unnecessary to divide the House. I will ask us therefore to proceed accordingly.
Motion put and agreed to.
Debate to resume: Wednesday, 26th July, 2017.
THIRD READING
CONSTITUTION OF ZIMBABWE AMENDMENT (NO. 1) BILL [H.
B. 1, 2017]
Third Order read: Third Reading: Constitution of Zimbabwe
Amendment (No.1) Bill [H.B. 1, 2017].
THE VICE PRESIDENT AND MINISTER OF JUSTICE, LEGAL AND PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (HON. E.D.
MNANGAGWA): Mr. Speaker Sir, I move that the Third Reading of the Constitution of Zimbabwe Amendment (No. 1) Bill [H.B. 1, 2017] be read the third time.
HON. GONESE: Before you put the question Mr. Speaker, I have a motion - [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] – I have the Standing Orders …
THE HON. SPEAKER: I am not putting a question.
HON. GONESE: No, before you put the question.
THE HON. SPEAKER: I am not putting any question. Can I
hear you? Can you approach the Chair Hon. Gonese?
Hon. Gonese approached the Chair.
HON. GONESE: Mr. Speaker Sir, can I just beg your indulgence because there is an important matter which I want to raise.
THE HON. SPEAKER: Order, order, take your seat. This is a Constitutional Bill and we have to go according to the Constitution in terms of Section 328 (5). I shall proceed. Section 328 (5) - [HON.
MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] –
HON. GONESE: No, no, no. Mr. Speaker, this is improper. Mr. Speaker, this House has Standing Orders – we have our Bible. I have a point which is very valid.
THE HON. SPEAKER: Can you sit down, can you sit down?
Order, order! Standing Orders cannot override constitutional provisions. So, I am proceeding in terms of constitutional provision Section 328 (5) of the Constitution and no Standing Order can override a constitutional provision. Please sit down. Can you please sit down? - [HON.
MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] – I have ruled. Order, order! Hon. Chief Whip of the opposition, can you listen? You kindly showed me the provision of the Standing Order and I am saying, the section of the Standing Order that you have shown me when I had tete-a-tete with you, does not override the constitutional provisions. - [HON.
MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] –
- GONESE: I have to stand for my rights, I have not made my submission.
THE HON. SPEAKER: I have ruled.
- GONESE: What have you ruled on? I have not made my
submission. Mr. Speaker, if I am wrong, you can take me to court - yes.
THE HON. SPEAKER: Order, order. I had ruled already after the Hon. Chief Whip showed me the section of the Standing Order - [HON. CHIBAYA: Which section?] - He has it there. Order! I cannot rule against my own ruling – [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible
interjections.]
HON. GONESE: On a point of privilege. I will try to be as brief as I can. Firstly, Mr Speaker Sir, I want to seek your guidance because I am ready for both. First of all, let me start with the matter of privilege. I will go for my substantive motion in terms of Standing Order 152.
Thank you very much Mr. Speaker Sir. I am moving a motion in terms of the provisions of Standing Order 152 (3), which provisions I will just read quickly. “When a Bill has been reported, a Motion maybe moved to recommit the Bill either wholly or in respect only of particular clauses”. In this regard, I am moving that this Bill be recommitted in respect of clause 6, and I will give you the reasons why I am moving that motion.
On the 27th of June 2017, during the debate at the Committee
Stage, and I am going to quote the words of the Hon. Vice President, Hon. Mnangagwa, from the official record of the Hansard, “ The appointment of the Chief Justice will be done by the President after consultation with the Judicial Service Commission. It is very clear in the Constitution that for every office that falls vacant, that of the Chief Justice included, there is need to have three nominees for each vacant position. In the case of the Chief Justice, the President has to submit these three nominees to the Judicial Service Commission for the purpose of consulting the Judicial Service Commission in relation to qualifications, probity and integrity. This is then read and recommendations are made to the President. The President has the discretion to select from the three as evaluated by the Judicial Service
Commission”. So, these are the critical words on the basis upon which I am moving that the Bill be recommitted to the Committee Stage.
The Hon. Vice President is a legal practitioner of many years standing, and I believe that he could not have made a mistake. What he said reflects the thinking of the Executive that in terms of the consultation that has to take place, the President must give three nominees to the Judicial Services Commission and thereafter, recommendations are made appropriately.
However, when we look at the provisions of the Bill before us, that is not what it said. I do not want to think for one moment that the Hon.
Vice President who is a man of integrity wanted to mislead this august
House. I do not want to think for one moment that the Hon. Vice President wanted to mislead the Nation of Zimbabwe. So, those are the words which are in black and white. In the circumstances, Mr. Speaker Sir, because I believe that this is a man of integrity who is before us, obviously there must be an error on the Bill, because the Bill does not say what he said.
In that respect, Mr. Speaker, it is important that we recommit the Bill, so that the Bill reflects the thinking of the Executive as adumbrated by the Hon. Vice President in this august House. This is precisely the reason why I am saying we cannot proceed with the Bill as it stands, because the official record of the Hansard says one thing and that thing is what the Executive intends and we want the Bill to reflect precisely the thinking of the Executive that you must then have three names which are for the purpose of consultation submitted to the Judicial Service Commission. For that reason we cannot remain with a record which is inaccurate, contradicting the words which are in the print.
The only way to regularize and to rectify that anomaly is to recommit the Bill to the Committee Stage so that at that particular point in time, the Hon. Vice President can, it is not me who is going to make the amendments, we want him to make the amendments which are in sync with what he told us unless, God forbid, the Hon. Vice President decided - to mislead this august House, decided to mislead the nation of Zimbabwe, decided - for lack of a better word, to lie to this august House. So, that is the basis upon which I am making this motion that let us proceed in terms of Standing Order 152 - [HON. MEMBERS:
Inaudible interjections]-
THE HON. SPEAKER: Hon. Member can you withdraw your
statement, ‘lie’.
HON. GONESE: I withdraw. In conclusion, in terms of process I want to make submission that the procedure which I have adopted is, in my respectful submission, correct and I will explain why I think that…
THE HON. SPEAKER: Again?
HON. GONESE: In conclusion, I submit that the Procedure in
terms of stages of Bills for an ordinary Bill and a Constitutional Bill is not different. The only difference comes in that in a Constitutional Bill, there is no reference to the Parliamentary Legal Committee where the amendments are not referred to the Parliamentary Legal Committee that in my respectful view is the only point of departure. In terms of stages we have the First Reading on an ordinary Bill and a First Reading on a Constitutional Bill. After the First Reading on an ordinary Bill, it is referred to the Parliamentary Legal Committee, whereas on a
Constitutional Bill it is not referred to the Parliamentary Legal Committee. Similarly, when you have got the Second Reading, after that you go to the Committee Stage in respect of both Bills. After the Committee Stage, you report progress to the House and only if the amendments are referred to the Parliamentary Legal Committee and that is the only point of departure.
Otherwise, Mr. Speaker, the processes in relation to those stages of the Bills are the same and I therefore want to submit that the procedures outlined, Standing Order Number 152 (3) are equally applicable to a Constitutional Bill and therefore it means that if there is any anomaly like any other Bill, it can be recommitted, it can be referred back so that connections can be made. I thank you.
THE HON. SPEAKER: Thank you Hon. Speaker. Your motion does not stand because the issue you raised, though important should have been raised at the appropriate time, at committee stage. There was no due notice during the Committee Stage and therefore and therefore, now we are on the Third Reading and we cannot proceed as suggested –
[HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections]- No, I have ruled – [HON.
MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] – Order, order, we proceed.
Section 328 (5) of the Constitution of Zimbabwe provides that, “A
Constitutional Bill must be passed, at its last reading in the National Assembly and in the Senate, by an affirmative vote of two-thirds of the membership of each House.”
In order to comply with the provision of Section 328 (5), it is necessary that the number of the affirmative votes cast by members be recorded. I therefore direct that the bells be now rung after which the votes of – [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] – Hon. Members will be counted – [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible
interjections.] –
[Bells rung].
[House divided].
*HON. ADV. CHAMISA: Hon. Speaker, we are grateful that you have managed to divide the House which is not a problem in itself but realising that this is a Constitutional Amendment Bill. It is a Bill –
[HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] –
THE HON. SPEAKER: Yes, carry on.
HON. ADV. CHAMISA: Thank you Hon. Speaker. I kindly ask
that I be protected. I cannot think clearly when there is noise. I thought you were going to bring the House to order Hon. Speaker.
Hon. Speaker, I have indicated that in terms of our Constitution, Section 139, our Standing Rules and Orders are supposed to define how privileges – [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] – Hon.
Speaker, I think it is a bit unfair. Members are being allowed to heckle. I have not been able to say what I need to say. So, allow me to be protected Hon. Speaker.
THE HON. SPEAKER: Order, order. Can we hear Hon.
Chamisa.
HON. ADV. CHAMISA: Thank you Hon. Speaker. I said in
terms of Section 139 of the Constitution, it is supposed to be very clear in terms of how our privileges are exercised. You are aware that we went to the liberation struggle to fight for the right to vote and not the right to win – [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] – For that reason, the right to vote is an important right.
What I am submitting Hon. Speaker is that let us allow the secrecy of the vote by Members of Parliament – [HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.] - so that we have a secret ballot. There are Members who are intimidated from the other side. They have been complaining to us Hon. Speaker Sir. Voter intimidation cannot be allowed in Parliament. We know that they are being harassed into voting in a particular way. Let us allow the secret ballot and I can assure you that we do not have assisted voters, no secret manipulation. Let us have each and every member voting for themselves, then we will be able to have the vote being done properly.
Hon. Speaker Sir, you are also aware that this is not a frivolous request. In South Africa, the Constitutional Court had to be seized with this matter and it made a ruling that let Parliament define what is in advancement of the interests of individual members. As individual members, we feel that let us vote without fear or favour; without intimidation and let us make arrangements for a secret ballot for this vote because it is an important Bill being a constitutional Bill. Hon.
Speaker Sir, I so request.
THE HON. SPEAKER: Order, order. I hear you Hon. Chamisa and in your request you referred to the South African Constitutional Court which decided that the final arbiter is the Speaker. So in this case,
I say no secret ballot.
HON. TOFFA: Point of order Mr. Speaker Sir.
THE HON. SPEAKER: I am not accepting an point of order.
HON. TOFFA: There is no gender parity; no women have spoken ever since we started debating Mr. Speaker Sir.
THE HON. SPEAKER: Hon. Toffa, can you take your seat? – [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] – Order, order! Sit down.
Order, the tellers have been counting and we want to hear the numbers. – [AN HON. MEMBER: The correct numbers not just the numbers.]- I will send you outside now and can you be orderly. What number do we have from the Eyes?
HON. MUKWANGWARIWA: We have 187.
THE HON. SPEAKER: And this side?
HON. GONESE: Mr. Speaker, I think that procedurally – [HON.
MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.]-
THE HON. SPEAKER: Order, order!
HON. GONESE: Mr. Speaker, I just wanted to make a
submission. I believe that the best way procedurally, is not about which side has got more numbers...
THE HON. SPEAKER: Can you make your statement please!
I am saying that the position in terms of the
constitutional provisions is that the affirmative votes, it does not matter how many votes we have this side. It has to be 180+. So, we have got to verify that first. From our side, those we counted, we came up with about 173. We might have made an error and this is why we need a physical count. We need to have a physical count and confirm the names with the people who are here because we do not know each other.
We have to verify firstly how many people are there because when we counted Mr. Speaker, we came up with a figure which is about 173 which is well short of that number. We may have made an error and we need to verify because this is just to fulfill the constitutional position. We have to comply with our Constitution because some people were seated haphazardly and it was not very easy to verify.
THE HON. SPEAKER: Please state your case?
HON. GONESE: We need to count physically as to how many members there are.
THE HON. SPEAKER: What is your number?
It is 173 and that is the number that we have.
THE HON. SPEAKER: From the Nos, what number do you have?
HON. GONESE: The numbers on this side Mr. Speaker are not relevant. We need to verify affirmative votes, handizvo here? The affirmative are the ones which count. Even if there were two people on this side, it does not really matter, what matters are the affirmative votes. That is what matters. So, for me Mr. Speaker, we need to verify that number because even if there were two people or zero people, it would not matter, because what matters is whether there is one third or two thirds which is 180+. So, my view is that we have to confirm the affirmative votes. Are they 180+? If they are not 180+, then that is not correct.
THE HON. SPEAKER: What is your number this side?
HON. GONESE: The number we had for this side is 173.
THE HON. SPEAKER: And what is your number?
Our number on this side Mr. Speaker is
irrelevant. So at this point in time, we have to verify the affirmative vote.
THE HON. SPEAKER: Just tell us the number.
HON. GONESE: Mr. Speaker, our position is let us count the numbers on this side. I just want to understand. The number on this side has no relevance as far as I am concerned because if they are two or 100 people, what we need to know is whether they are 180+ on that side.
An Hon. Member having entered the House.
-[HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.]- THE HON. SPEAKER: Order, please sit down.
HON. GONESE: I will give you the number Mr. Speaker. The number which we have is 41 but we still need verification – [HON.
MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] –
THE HON. SPEAKER: Order. Democracy can be very expensive in terms of money and time. I have consulted with the Leader
of Government Business and we will verify the numbers this side – (Right side of the Chair.) – and we want Tellers now – [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] – Order, order. I am going to announce the results and then we verify. These are the results that I got
– [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] –
HON. MLISWA: On a point of order Mr. Speaker Sir.
THE HON. SPEAKER: What is your point of order?
HON. MLISWA: My point of order is in terms of Section 110 of the Standing Rules and Orders which is – [HON. CHAMISA: Musabatira zvinhu pamusoro vakomana.] – Mr. Speaker Sir, I think we have been on this for the whole day, clearly wasting time. My point of order is in terms of Section 110 which provides that “Any Member who disregards the authority of the Chair or persistently and willfully…” –
[HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] –
THE HON. SPEAKER: Order, order.
HON. MLISWA I will repeat - they are making noise Mr.
Speaker. I equally need to be listened to when there is silence and they are making noise. There must be order and I cannot speak when they are standing. I request that those Hon. Members sit down.
THE HON. SPEAKER: You have made your point.
HON. MLISWA: I cannot speak when they are standing.
THE HON. SPEAKER: You have made your point.
HON. MLISWA: I cannot speak when they are making noise and standing - [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] – you will sit down. This is not a campaigning ground, go and campaign on the ground uko, uko. - [AN HON. MEMBER: Get away, get away.] -
THE HON. SPEAKER: Order, order. Hon. Members, can you
sit down.
THE VICE PRESIDENT AND MINISTER OF JUSTICE, LEGAL AND PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (HON. E.D.
MNANGAGWA): Mr. Speaker Sir, may I request Hon. Members who are standing, if they have places to sit, to sit down - [HON. MEMBERS:
Inaudible interjections.] - Those ones who are standing there have nowhere to sit.
Mr. Speaker Sir, the request by the Members of the opposition is that they would want the figures to be verified. My view in democracy is that we must be very transparent. May I ask Hon. Members to become honourable as they are Honourable Members? We have spent over two and half hours on a matter that could have lasted a few minutes. I would now wish that - [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible
interjections.] –
THE HON. SPEAKER: Order, order. Hon. Members, please sit down.
THE VICE PRESIDENT AND MINISTER OF JUSTICE, LEGAL AND PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (HON. E.D.
MNANGAGWA): Mr. Speaker Sir, the point currently in question is the question of verifying the numbers that have been mentioned by the appointed counters from both sides, but there is need from the other side - they want us to verify the numbers that you have been given as Mr.
Speaker, after the count. I, representing this side, agree that quietly, can we have the Sergeant-at-Arms count our side, he gives you the number and he comes to the other side when everybody is seated, and gives you the number – [HON. MLISWA: And represent me too Sergeant.] –
HON. KHUPE: Thank you very much Mr. Speaker – [HON. MLISWA: I have not been given the chance and I am just equal to them.] –
Mr. Speaker Sir, I agree 100 per cent with the Vice President that the votes must be verified - but my point is that, votes must be verified to the satisfaction of both sides and the only way that we can be satisfied is that two Chief Whips from MDC count the ZANU PF side and those from ZANU PF count the MDC side together with the Sergeant-atArms. That is the only way we can be satisfied that the numbers are correct Mr. Speaker Sir. We want fairness in this House. If indeed we are not hiding anything, let us do it like that.
THE HON. SPEAKER: Order, order. Hon. Chamisa please, please be quiet. The Sergeant-at-Arms can be accompanied by the two Whips - [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] – Hon. Toffa, please take your seat – [HON. MLISWA: I have to be part of the counting because I am an independent Member and the Chief Whips cannot count us.] -
Mr. Speaker directed the Sergeant-at-Arms to conduct a recount of Hon. Members on the right side.
THE HON. SPEAKER: After the verifications, the figure given of the results of the count is; Ayes - 182 and the Hon. Members who left are Hon. Matuke; Hon. Chinomona, Hon. Ruvai, Hon. Nyamupinga,
Hon. Muchenje –[HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.]- order!
Those against - 41. The number of affirmative votes recorded is not less than two thirds membership of the House. I therefore, declare the final votes in the House on the Constitutional Amendment Bill to have been in accordance with the provisions of Section 328 (5) of the Constitution.
AYES: Beremauro G, Bimha M. C,Chakona P, Chapfika D, Chasi
S, Chibagu G, Chidhakwa W, Chigudu M,Chigumba C.C , Chikomba L,Chikukwa M, Chikuni E, Chikwama B, Chikwinya N, Chimedza P.Dr;
,Chimene M.M ,Chimwamurombe A, Chinamasa P, Chingosho C. P,
Chinotimba J, Chiota P, Chipanga K, Chipato A, Chitindi C, Chitura L,
Chiwa D, Chiwetu J. Z, Chombo I. M. C, Damasane S. A. E, Dhewa W,
Dinha M. T, Dutiro P, Gangarahwe G, Gava M, Gezi T , Goche N. T,
Gumbo J. M, Gumbo S, Guzah K.N, Gwanetsa K, Gwanongodza E,
Hlongwane M, Holder J, Hungwa G, Japoon J, Kachepa N, Kadungure
- A, Kagonye P, Kanhanga E, Karoro D, Kasukuwere S, Katsiru L.,
Kaundikiza M, Kazembe K, Khanye N, Kuruneri C, Kwaramba G, Langa Andrew, Mabuwa C. I, Machingura R, Mackenzie I, Madondo T,
Madubeko J, Maduza T, Mahiya M, Mahoka S, Makari Z. H, Makoni R.
R, Makunde T , Makweya M, Mandipaka O, Mandiwanzira S. C,
Mangami D, Mangwende S, Mapiki J, Marapira D, Marumahoko R,
Masamvu L, Mashange W, Mashonganyika D, Masiya D,
Matambanadzo M, Matangaidze T, Matangira T. R, Matimba K. M,
Matiza B. J, Matsikenyere N, Mavenyengwa R, Mavima P, Mawere M,
Mawere R. N. S., Maziwisa P, Mbwembwe E , Mguni O, Mhere E,
Mhlanga N. J, Mhona F. T, Mkandla M, Mlilo N, Mliswa P.T, Mnangagwa A, Mohadi K. C, Moyo F, Mpala M, Mpofu M. M, Mpofu
O.Moses, Mpofu R, Mpofu S, Mtingwende T, Mudambo T, Mudarikwa
S, Mudau M, Muderedzwa R, Mudyiwa M, Mufunga A, Mukanduri S. ,
Mukwangwariwa F.G, Mukwena R, Mupfumi I.F, Mupereri V,
Muponora N, Musabayana D, Musanhi K. S, Mushohwe C, Musvaire
W, Mutinhiri A, Mutomba W, Mzembi W, Ncube A, Ncube O, Ncube
Saul, Ndhlovu Anastancia, Ndlovu D, Ndlovu B., Ndoro L. F, Nduna D,
Nhambu B, Nhema F.D, Nkatazo M. M, Nkomo Mail, Nkomo Malach,
Nleya L, Nyanhongo M, Nyere C, Nyoni S, Omar J, Paradza K,
Passade J, Pedzisai I, Pemhenayi B, Pedzisai, Phiri F.P, Porusingazi E,
Rungani A, Samukange J. T, Savanhu Ti, Seremwe B, Shamu W. K,
Shava J, Shongedza E, Sibanda C. C, Sibanda K, Sibanda M, Sibanda
Z, Simbanegavi Y, Sindi C, Sipani H.O, Thembani S.Z, Tongofa M,
Tshuma B, Tshuma J, Tsomondo C, Undenge S, Uta K, Vutete M,
Wadyajena J. M, Zemura Lilian, Zhou P, Zhou T, Zindi I, Ziyambi Z.
Teller: Rungani, A.
NOES: Chabaya B, Chamisa N, Chidhakwa S, Chimanikire G,
Chinanzvavana C, Chirisa F, Chisorochengwe T, Cross E.G, Dube S,
Gonese I.T, Khupe T, Machingauta C, Majaya B, Majome F.J, Makonya
J, Maondera W, Maridadi J, Mashakada T, Masuku P, Mataruse P,
Muguni N, Misiharabwi P.M, Mpariwa P, Mudzuri E, Mugidho M,
Munengami F, Munochinzwa M, Musindire A.L, Mutseyami P,
Muzondiwa E.S, Ndebele A, Ndlovu N, Sansole T.W, Saruwaka T.J.L,
Sibanda D, Sibanda L, Sithole G.K, Tarusenga U.D, Toffa J, Watson N.J, Zwizwai M.
Teller: Gonese, I.
Bill read the third time.
THE VICE PRESIDENT AND MINISTER OF JUSTICE, LEGAL AND PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (HON.
MNANGAGWA): Mr. Speaker Sir, I rise to congratulate this august House, the National Assembly of the Republic of Zimbabwe which has deliberated on the first which has deliberated on the first Amendment to the national Constitution and I am happy that every individual Hon.
Member of this House was given adequate opportunity. Many Hon. Members in the House had the opportunity to contribute more than once to the debate. I am very grateful that, in particular, the opposition made very constructive contribution during the course of debate – [HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.] – I was very grateful to some of their incisive and well researched contributions to the debate. I would want to thank you for the manner and commitment you showed to democracy. This is what democracy is all about where those who disagree are given the space to air their disagreement to an issue and that is allowed. At the end of the day, the majority carries the day – [HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.] – I thank you Mr. Speaker.
HON. GONESE: On a point of order Mr. Speaker, may I also be given the floor?
THE HON. SPEAKER: Order, order, I thought we were going to adjourn the House.
MOTION
ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE
THE VICE PRESIDENT AND MINISTER OF JUSCTICE, LEGAL AND PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (HON. E. D.
MNANGANGWA): I now move that the House do now adjourn –
[HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] –
THE HON. SPEAKER: It has been moved that the House do
now adjourn, is there any debate?
HON. GONESE: There is debate Mr. Speaker! – [HON.
MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] – There is debate Mr. Speaker, I want to respond – [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] – Yes, thank you Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker, in responding to the motion to adjourn the House, I
think it is only fair and appropriate to also respond to the Hon. Vice President. The Hon. Vice President made some sentiments in moving his motion for the adjournment of the House and in responding, I would like to state that this was a very good exercise but I want to point out that in the course of the process, there were some disparities and distortions which were observed. I think we cannot adjourn the House without pointing those out.
The important point is that the vote had initially been given as 187 and I think that we have been vindicated that at the end of the day the final tally was 182. Secondly, I also want to make the observation that there was no proper voting – what we did was simply to count people. I believe that in terms of the provisions of our Constitution, we did not proceed with the process of voting.
Thirdly, Mr. Speaker, we violated our own rules because our rules state that once the doors have been closed, no one can be allowed in. We are now no longer sure as to whether those who walked in afterwards had been in the House at the beginning – [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] – I am just making those observations and I think it is important for posterity that at the end of the day when the bells are rung, no one is allowed to walk in or out. We do not know whether those people who walked in subsequently were part of the original vote and I think that it is important for this to be recorded – [HON.
MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] –
THE HON. SPEAKER: You have made your point.
HON. GONESE: We are also worried that there could have been some other distortions. We have some aides who were in the House and we are not sure as to whether they were excluded or not from the vote.
The final tally shows that – [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] – We have the aides for Hon. Kuruneri and Hon. Mpofu who were both in the House. So those are concerns which I think should be recorded for posterity. At the end of the day, it is important– [HON. MEMBERS:
Inaudible interjections.] –
THE HON. SPEAKER: Alright, may you conclude?
HON. GONESE: We should move and proceed in accordance
with the rules, that we should follow our rules all the time and not leave any room for possible manipulation because the final tally shows us that without the two independent members, ZANU PF appears to just have been on the threshold. With those distortions and disparities that I mentioned, it is possible that this affirmative vote was not achieved properly and in accordance with the provisions of the Constitution.
I want to reiterate and conclude by saying, there was no vote at the end of the day.
Motion put and agreed to.
The House adjourned at Twenty Two Minutes past Six o’clock p.m.
PARLIAMENT OF ZIMBABWE
Thursday, 20th July, 2017
The National Assembly met at a Quarter-past Two o’clock p. m.
PRAYERS
(THE HON. SPEAKER in the Chair)
ANNOUNCEMENTS BY THE HON. SPEAKER
CHARITY GOLF TOURNAMENT
THE HON. SPEAKER: Order, I have the following announcements. I wish to inform the House that as part of its corporate social responsibility initiative, Parliament will host a charity golf tournament on Friday, 4th August, 2017 at the Zimbabwe Republic Police Golf Club. The registration fee is $50.00 per player or $200.00 per foursome. For more information, you may contact Mr. N. Samu on Extension 2186 or 2209 or Rtd. Major Mbewe on Extension 2240.
RECOMMITTAL OF THE LAND COMMISSION BILL (H. B. 2,
2016)
THE HON. SPEAKER: I have to inform the House that I have received the Land Commission Bill (H. B. 2, 2016) from the Senate with amendments. The Bill is recommitted in terms of Standing Order No.
181 (1).
PRESENTATION OF THE 2016 ANNUAL BUDGET REVIEW
AND THE 2017 ECONOMIC OUTLOOK STATEMENT
THE HON. SPEAKER: I have to inform the House that the Hon.
Minister of Finance and Economic Development will present the 2016 Annual Budget Review and the 2017 Economic Outlook Statement today at a Quarter to Three o’clock this afternoon.
Business was suspended at Twenty-Two Minutes past Two o’clock
p.m. and resumed at a Quarter to Three o’clock p.m.
The Acting President of the Senate in attendance.
MOTION
2016 ANNUAL BUDGET REVIEW AND THE 2017 ECONOMIC
OUTLOOK STATEMENT
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE AND ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT (HON. CHINAMASA): I move the motion
standing in my name;
THAT WHEREAS, paragraph (a) of subsection 2 of section 7 of the Public Finance Management Act [Chapter 22:17] provides that the Minister of Finance and Economic Development shall ensure full and transparent accounts are from time to time and not less than annually made to Parliament indicating the current and projected state of the economy, the public resources of Zimbabwe and the fiscal policy of the
Government;
WHEREAS paragraph (a) of subsection 1 of section 298 of the Constitution of Zimbabwe provides that there must be transparency and accountability in financial matters;
WHEREAS during the presentation of the Annual Budget 2017, an undertaking was made to provide the House with an update on the performance of the 2016 Budget;
NOW THEREFORE, the House is requested to take note of the 2016 Annual Budget Review and the 2017 Economic Outlook as tabled by the Minister of Finance and Economic Development.
INTRODUCTION
- Speaker Sir, during my presentation of the2017 National Budget on 8 December 2016, I indicated that, I will be bringing a comprehensive Annual Budget Review, with fiscal and macroeconomic outturn to December 2016.
- I further indicated that the presentation of the 2016 Annual Budget Review also allows opportunity for reporting on 2017 recent macro-economic developments and prospects.
- Accordingly, Mr Speaker Sir, this Review confines itself to 2016 developments and outlook for 2017, while fiscal and taxation
proposals will be contained in the forthcoming 2018 National Budget.
- For purposes of accountability and transparency, Treasury will also continue to provide Quarterly Treasury Bulletins, capturing quarterly macro-economic and fiscal developments, in addition to the Consolidated Monthly Financial Statements, which are tabled in this August House in line with the Public Finance Management
Act.
- These arrangements should therefore avail the public with necessary information on relevant economic developments, that way enhancing and supporting their decision making processes, activities and engagement with Government on overall economic policy issues.
- Allow me, therefore, Mr. Speaker Sir, to unveil and table the first Annual Budget Review and Outlook for 2017, focusing on its main highlights.
CHAPTER 1: REAL SECTOR DEVELOPMENTS
- Speaker Sir, 2016 was a difficult year, challenged by a severe drought, coupled with depressed international commodity prices. Despite these developments, the economy registered a modest growth of 0.7% against a Budget target of 2.7%.
- Growth prospects for 2017 are quite positive. This follows a resounding agricultural season and partial rebound in international mineral prices. These positive developments gave impetus to the rest of the other sectors, to give a projected growth of 3.7% this year.
- Details on respective sector performance are in the main document.
Agriculture
- The recurrence of drought from the previous two years severely affected most crops and livestock, with significant losses in yields experienced in the drier southern parts of the country.
- The 2016/17 agriculture season, saw much stronger Government and private sector cooperation in supporting the sector under
various cropping programmes including the Special Maize
Production Programme, popularly called ‘Command Agriculture’ .
- Already, positive results are evident, with this year’s strong recovery of agriculture estimated to yield a commendable 21.6% growth.
Comprehensive Monitoring and Accounting
- The success of the ‘Command Agriculture’ was not only anchored on better financing preparations and good rainfall, but also comprehensive monitoring and evaluation by teams drawn from different Government Agencies at National level.
- These teams closely monitored utilisation of inputs and farming activities with a view to ensuring the success of the programme in terms of yields and capacity for loans repayments.
- All monies extended to beneficiaries under the ‘Command
Agriculture’ Scheme are, therefore, being accounted for and audited under the Command Agriculture Fund approved by
Parliament for that purpose and administered by the Ministry of Agriculture, Mechanisation and Irrigation Development, with recoveries maintained by Agribank.
Extension of the ‘Command Agriculture’
- Building on the experiences of the first phase of the programme, preparations for the 2017/18 agriculture season have already begun, with mobilisation of financial resources, procurement of seeds, fertilizers and chemicals underway.
- Starting with the 2017/18 agricultural season, ‘Command’ wheat,
‘Command’ livestock, ‘Command’ fisheries and ‘Command’ wildlife will, therefore, be unveiled with a total value of about US$334 million.
- This will be complemented by the Presidential Input Scheme valued at US$153.1 million to cater for about 1.8 million rural households. Under the Presidential Input Scheme, cotton will be supported to the tune of US$60 million, catering for 400 000 households with grain production taking up US$52.9 million, and the balance supporting oilseed crops such as soya beans.
Mining
- In 2016, the mining sector realised output gains across most minerals with the exception of coal and diamonds, underpinning overall growth of 8.2%.
- This was notwithstanding relatively low international mineral commodity prices. However, enhancement of the viability of mining companies producing gold and platinum benefitted from the review of royalties.
- As a result, mining contribution to GDP increased to 8.7% from
7.9% recorded in the previous year.
- With regards to gold production, I commend Small Scale Miners, whose contribution is gradually increasing to reach 42.6% of total gold output in 2016, from 36.7% in the previous year.
- This category of miners will also benefit from Government support through the SMEs Mining Loan Fund, as well as the recently launched US$20 million SME Facility for artisanal miners.
- In 2017, the ongoing reforms in the diamonds and coal industry are already seeing the turnaround of these sub-sectors and providing impetus for higher growth in the sector.
- With the capitalisation of the ZCDC to the tune of $80 million, diamonds output during the first half of 2017, were 1.1 million carats against 690 000 carats realized during the same period last year.
- Coal output is also on the increase following implementation of turnaround strategies at Hwange Colliery. Following Government capitalisation of Hwange Colliery and appointment of a new Board, coal production has jumped from a low of 80 762 metric tons per month in 2016 to 170 000 metric tons in May 2017 and 234 000 metric tons in June 2017 as turnaround strategies began to bear fruit.
- With all these initiatives, the mining sector is expected to grow by
5.1% in 2017.
- Mr Speaker Sir, let me, however, mention that, notwithstanding the positive growth in mining, and the sector being number one
contributor to foreign exchange earnings, its contribution to the fiscus remain low, accounting for a meagre 2.2% of total revenues in 2016.
Mining Sector Revenue Share
|
2009 |
2010 |
2011 |
2012 |
2013 |
2014 |
2015 |
2016 |
Total Government Revenue (US$ Millions) |
934 |
2,339 |
2,921 |
3,496 |
3,741 |
3,727 |
3,737 |
3,502 |
Mining Revenue (US$ Millions) |
50.6 |
154 |
161.3 |
245.8 |
185.2 |
335.9 |
139.9 |
75.74 |
Mining Revenue Share (%) |
5.4 |
6.6 |
5.5 |
7 |
4.8 |
9 |
3.7 |
2.2 |
Source: Ministry of Finance and Economic Development
- The finalisation of the Mining Fiscal Regime will therefore address this challenge.
Industry
- The positive impact of Government interventions in support of domestic value addition contributed towards revival of the manufacturing sector.
- This included Statutory Instrument 64 of 2016, domestic financial system export incentive arrangements by the Reserve Bank of Zimbabwe, as well as supportive duty rebates on imported capital equipment.
- The promotion of value chains, especially those linking agriculture and other extractive sectors to manufacturing, and construction sectors added impetus to the revival of the industry and with spillover effects on other service sectors.
- Resultantly, weighted average capacity utilisation improved from 34.3% to 47.4% in 2016 in sub-sectors such as foodstuffs, textiles and ginning, clothing and footwear, non-metallic mineral products and metals and metal products.
- The sector is, therefore, estimated to have grown by 0.3% in 2016 compared to 0.2% recorded in the previous year.
- In the outlook, activity in the sector is expected to improve on account of strong agricultural performance and related value chains, continued implementation of SI 64 of 2016, the use of plastic money and the ongoing doing business reforms to reduce cost structures.
CHAPTER 2: FISCAL REVENUE PERFORMANCE
- Mr. Speaker Sir, revenue outturn for 2016 wasUS$3.5 billion, reflecting an overall revenue shortfall of US$347.8 million from the Budget target of US$3.85 billion.
Revenue Performance: January to December 2016
|
Actual (US$ mil) |
Target (US$ mil) |
Variance (US$ mil) |
Variance (%) |
Total Revenue |
3 502.0 |
3 850.0 |
-347.8 |
-9.0 |
Tax Revenue |
3 237.0 |
3 607.0 |
-370.0 |
-10.3 |
Non Tax Revenue |
264.8 |
242.8 |
22.0 |
+9.1 |
Source: Ministry of Finance and Economic Development
- A significant portion of tax revenue during 2016 was generated from Consumption Taxes i.e. Value Added Tax (VAT) and Excise
Duty, as well as Personal Income Tax.
Contributions to Total Revenue
Source: Ministry of Finance and Economic Development
- During 2017, indications are that revenues will improve following various measures being implemented by ZIMRA in conjunction with other Government Departments on countering leakages.
- Specifically, VAT is expected to benefit from the rationalisation of the schedule of zero rated goods and services which will reduce the value of refunds and the associated fraud.
- In addition, the VAT withholding tax system, expansion of the fiscalisation programme to Category A, B, and D Taxpayers, increase in the number of licensed suppliers of fiscal devices and
the on-going formalisation of SMEs as well as carrying out lifestyle audits, will all improve efficiencies in revenue collection as well as broadening the revenue tax base.
- On the other hand, excise duty on fuel will continue to benefit from the implementation of the electronic cargo tracking system and the alignment of excise duty on paraffin with diesel. This has limited revenue loss from transit fraud and unscrupulous trading of paraffin for blending with diesel.
- Corporate Income Tax collections should continue on an upward trajectory on the back of measures aimed at minimising base erosion and profit shifting by some associated companies and foreign business enterprises.
- Furthermore, the promulgation of Regulations to govern the activities of Clearing Agents and Tax Consultants in the second half of the year will assist in mitigating tax fraud to the benefit of the fiscus.
- On the back of the above measures, tax revenue performance during the first half of the year 2017 has been 1.4% above Budget estimates.
- By year end, revenues are expected to rebound to US$3.7 billion, in line with the National Budget projections.
CHAPTER 3: OVERALL EXPENDITURE OUTTURN
- Expenditures, at US$4.9 billion against a target of US$4 billion were however higher than envisaged, to give expenditure overrun of US$902 million.
Expenditure Outturn
|
Budget Estimate |
Expenditure Outturn |
Variance |
|
US$m |
US$m |
US$m |
Total Expenditure &Net Lending |
4,000.0 |
4,902.2 |
(902.2) |
Employment Costs |
3,191.0 |
3,209.8 |
(18.8) |
Operations and Maintenance |
384.0 |
604.8 |
(220.8) |
Interest |
110.0 |
120.2 |
(10.2) |
Capital |
315.0 |
967.5 |
(652.5) |
Source: Ministry of Finance and Economic Development
- The major driver behind US$902.2 million overruns were interventions in support of recovery of our agriculture, which amounted to US$615 million, against 2016 Budget provision of US$66 million.
- Other expenditure overruns were on account of operations and Maintenance for Ministries and Government Departments: US$220 million; recapitalisation of our public enterprises; US$134 million, and compensation of former farmers.
- I would however like to inform Hon. Members that following
Cabinet approved measures on managing the wage bill,
Employment Costs, which are a major challenge, were in fact close to the budget at $3.2 billion.
- However, even at this level, the Wage Bill remains unsustainable as it still deprives other essential areas such as capital development programmes and social services in health and education.
- Therefore, riding on Cabinet approval in 2016 to reduce the employment costs bill, Government will continue to implement the recommendations of the Civil Service Skills Audit, maintain freeze on salary reviews and filling of vacancies and will undertake rationalisation of benefits and foreign travel.
- These measures are being buttressed by interventions on reducing consumption while prioritising development expenditures on stimulating production.
- Specifically, in June 2017, Cabinet directed the adoption of measures to address fundamental challenges besetting the economy, namely the fiscal deficit, low liquidity, market indiscipline, and low productivity.
- In this regard, all line Ministries and Departments are working on cost cutting measures whilst ensuring that expenditures are matched to revenue inflows and Budget allocations.
- Other details on expenditures by respective Ministries are in the main document.
CHAPTER 4: SOCIAL SERVICE DELIVERY AND
POVERTY REDUCTION PROGRAMMES
- The Budget continues to prioritise social services spending in health care, access to education as well as other social protection services even under severe fiscal constraints.
- Equally prioritised were poverty reduction and empowerment programmes.
- Given the labor intensive nature of service delivery in these sectors, the bulk of the budget resources for these sectors were indeed on employment costs.
- For example, the education Budget, including allocations towards ensuring availability of the education service providers, i.e. the 148 449 teaching staff in our primary and secondary schools as well as tertiary institutions, absorbed US$1.11 billion during 2016.
- This notwithstanding, both primary and secondary schools across the Provinces continue to experience high teacher pupil ratios.
- In the same vein, the health care Budget, including allocations towards ensuring availability of health care providers, i.e., the 37 332 health care workers in our public health institutions, absorbed US$295 million during 2016.
- I am however, encouraged to note the positive contribution of the
Health Levy on air time, which I introduced in the 2017 National
Budget and is already beginning to prop up resources for the health sector, by an additional $4.8 million per month.
- Other social protection expenditures incurred under the 2016 Budget included provision of US$4.4 million towards drought mitigation cash transfers to food insecure households, as well as US$1.5 million in support of ensuring vulnerable children access to education.
- The budgetary resources for these critical areas were also being complemented by development partners, whose contribution in 2016 amounted to $471.2 million, covering areas of infrastructure as well.
CHAPTER 5: GOVERNANCE SUPPORT PROGRAMMES
- Budget implementation during 2016 saw various Governance and Institutional Building programmes and projects undertaken in the areas of aligning laws to the Constitution, supporting the rule of law as well as the electoral process.
- Non-wage Budget expenditures of US$22.9 million were incurred towards improving the justice delivery system.
Support to Justice Delivery
|
US$m |
Justice Legal and Parliamentary Affairs |
20.3 |
Judicial Services Commission |
1.66 |
Zimbabwe Human Rights Commission |
0.31 |
Zimbabwe Anti-Corruption Commission |
0.61 |
Total |
22.88 |
Source: Ministry of Finance and Economic Development
CHAPTER 6: DEVELOPMENTS ON MAJOR
INFRASTRUCTURE PROJECTS
- In view of budgetary constraints, Treasury has had to be much more innovative to ensure some reasonable funding for infrastructure projects and programmes. Accordingly, the Budget resources of US$76.4 million was complemented by the following:
- Ring fenced Statutory Funds, US$163.5 million;
- Loan financing, US$164 million; as well as
- Development Partner support, US$28.6 million.
- Accordingly, US$347.7 million was channeled towards infrastructure development projects covering the sectors of energy, transport and communication, agriculture, ICT, water and sanitation as well as housing.
- As a result, Government managed to complete two major projects, whose development impact will be felt for years to come. These include the Victoria Falls International Airport Upgrading Project, that was commissioned on 18 November 2016 and the TokweMukorsi Dam Project, which was also commissioned by His Excellency the President R.G. Mugabe on 18 May 2017 and in one season is already 73% full. On Tokwe-Mukorsi Dam civil works on a 15MW Mini Hydro power plant have already started.
- Positive strides were also recorded on ongoing projects such as:
- Kariba South Power Extension;
- Rural Electrification of private and public institutions;
- Water supply projects for both urban and communal areas;
- Irrigation development and rehabilitation;
- Roads rehabilitation and; Other ICT projects, etc.
Details on implementation progress of these various ongoing projects are in the Review document.
- Progress was also registered with regards to project development activities for some critical projects, with some now at financial close stage and details are in the main document.
CHAPTER 7: PUBLIC SECTOR BORROWING
REQUIREMENTS
- Financing of the 2016 budget deficit was primarily through domestic borrowing, against the background of absence of external financing.
- In total, the Government deficit stood at US$1.4 billion, against an initial target of US$150 million. This was caused by a combination of inescapable expenditure requirements and revenue underperformance of US$347.8 million.
CHAPTER 8: PUBLIC DEBT
- Treasury and the RBZ continue to pursue the reengagement process in order to resolve the country’s debt of $11.3 billion as at end December 2016. Of this debt, public and publicly guaranteed external debt stood at US$7.3 billion, with domestic debt being
US$4 billion.
Arrears Clearance
- Of the total external debt of US$7.2 billion, US$5.1 billion is in arrears. The arrears problem remains a stumbling block for
Zimbabwe to access new financing at cheap borrowing terms.
- Government is, therefore, pursuing the Arrears Clearance and already the country settled its overdue obligations to the IMF amounting to US$107.9 million.
- The next step entails resolving arrears to the other multilateral creditors, namely the African Development Bank, US$642 million; the World Bank, US$1.402 billion; the European Investment Bank,
US$294 million; and other multilateral institutions, as well as Paris
Club and non Paris Club bilateral creditors.
CHAPTER 9: STRUCTURAL REFORMS
- Government is instituting a raft of structural reforms in order to improve the competitiveness of the economy.
These include the Ease of Doing Business, Public Finance Management Reforms, Special Economic Zones, and Public Entities Corporate Governance, among others.
CHAPTER 10: FINANCIAL SECTORDEVELOPMENTS
- The financial sector remains stable, notwithstanding the prevailing liquidity challenges. The ongoing efforts to promote financial inclusion, plastic money, e-banking services and broader use of multi-currencies are positive developments.
- Speaker Sir, Let me stress that the current liquidity and cash challenges are not unique to this economy but an expected temporary and transitional phenomena for a dollarised economy.
- These challenges, which include the proliferation of indiscipline of money changers, as well as foreign currency externalisation cases are being dealt with.
- Furthermore, a lot of efforts are also being expended in containing Non Performing Loans, now at 7.87% of the total loan book, against 10.82% of December 2016.
- The decline in Non-Performing Loans is largely attributable to enhanced credit management systems by banks during the year, coupled with disposal of some Non-Performing Loans to ZAMCO.
- The operationalisation of a credit reference system is also expected to improve information sharing, thereby, reducing credit risk and, hence, the level of Non-Performing Loans, which in turn improves the asset quality of the banking sector.
- Further details on performance of the Zimbabwe Stock Exchange and the state of our pensions and insurance industry, which are all qualified as stable are in the main document.
CHAPTER 11: BALANCE OF PAYMENTS
- With regards to the Balance of Payments, there has been marginal increase in exports to US$3.7 billion against imports of US$5.2 billion, to give a trade gap of about US$1.5 billion.
- The current account deficit as narrowed down to US$552 million from US$1.5 billion in 2015.
- The general improvement in the current account is largely attributed to import substitution, coupled with import compression measures introduced by Government in 2016 as well as the low uptake of intermediate imports due to the slowdown in manufacturing sector.
CONCLUSION
- Speaker Sir, economic performance in 2016 was generally subdued amid a number of challenges facing productive sectors, the public and financial sectors, as well as on the balance of payments front.
- However, the outlook for 2017 is very positive and there is need to acknowledge the substantial strides we have made in a number of areas including agriculture, infrastructure rehabilitation, as well as social services delivery, notwithstanding a difficult sanctions environment.
- In view of this reality, and given the fact that we are largely on our own and have to rely on our domestic resources, it is also prudent that our policies and strategies be aligned to this realism in order to optimise on our limited resources. It is incumbent on us to create an environment that is conducive for economic growth and such an environment is created by our own policies. The 2017 Budget has already set the tone for this direction, particularly in terms of fiscal management and importance of stimulating production in an environment of discipline.
The Hon. President of the Senate’s Panel led by the Acting
President of the Senate left the Chamber.
– [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] – THE HON. SPEAKER: Order, order.
HON. DR. MASHAKADA: Thank you Mr. Speaker Sir. As has become the tradition, after the Minister of Finance and Economic Development has tabled the Budget Statement, we as the official Opposition have to react to the Statement, highlight what we think are gaps and also compliment what we think are positive developments, and I am going to do just that.
Mr. Speaker Sir, from the onset, I must stress that the Minister of Finance has had a very difficult task. In fact, we cannot envy him in the difficult task that he faces. It is a difficult task because the fiscal space is so narrow and so limited. He has to really be a new Bismarck who has to juggle around with a lot of expectations in terms of public expenditure measured against diminishing revenue. This Budget Review should be judged from the point of view that the Minister did not have fiscal space in 2016 and still does not have adequate fiscal space in 2017.
Mr. Speaker, let me highlight the gaps or the deficiencies that I think the 2016 budgetary review reveals. The first problem is that from the revenue allocation of $3.5 billion in 2016, employment costs chewed $3.2 billion. So we are still grappling with employment costs Mr. Speaker Sir. From $3.5 billion revenue to $3.2 billion on employment costs, it is still a huge challenge because 90% of the budget is still going towards recurrent expenditure and leaving no room for developmental programmes or projects. So, it is a structural weakness of our budget as reviewed by the Hon. Minister and facts speak for themselves that Government does not have the capacity of political will to deal with employment costs.
For example, Mr. Speaker Sir, I expected the Hon. Minister of Finance and Economic Development to tell us that the ghost workers have now been cleared but as it appears, he has carefully avoided telling us what has happened to ghost workers because they continue to demand a lot in terms of fiscal resources. So from a point of view of the balance between development and recurrent budgets, I think the 2016 budget continues to be skewed in favour of nugatory or recurrent expenditure at the expense of developmental or people oriented expenditure. That is one structural weakness of the 2016 budget as reviewed by the Hon.
Minister.
The second weakness of the 2016 budget and its out-turn is that capital expenditure (CAPEX) performed dismally bad from the figures presented by the Hon. Minister. The budget for 2016 had set aside $967 million for capital development or Public Sector Investment Programme (PSIP) but from his report, the out-turn was only $315 million from an initial projected $967 million. It means that developmental infrastructural projects are suffering and without addressing infrastructural projects which are growth enhancing, you also compromise the capacity of the economy to grow on the basis of infrastructural development.
The other problem I noted in this Budget Review is the shocking level of deficit. Mr. Speaker Sir, the total deficit out-turn for 2016 as the Hon. Minister pronounced is $1.4 billion against a projected budget deficit of $150 million. It is really a shocking variance for me between expenditure and revenue. So what happened is that in 2016, a big fiscal hole was curved to the tune of $1.4 billion and we have to cover that budgetary deficit because it is a problem as it compromises service delivery.
The other problem I noted from the budget is that we expected the Hon. Minister to dwell a little more on the cash shortages or the current liquidity challenges that is still giving serious problems to our people. Mr. Speaker Sir, if you go out in the streets and banks, people are still queuing for their money as they cannot access their cash. I would have hoped for the Hon. Minister to have gone deeper to unveil the measures that Government is putting in place in order to ease the cash shortages. Yes, we appreciate that the use of plastic money has been increasing but there are certain basic expenditures that still require cash. Our ordinary people will still need cash to board kombis, buy tomatoes and vegetables in the locations. There are still basic expenses that require cash and I would have hoped that the Hon. Minister would tackle the issue of cash or liquidity challenges because this economy is stuck in a deflation. Consumers have no spending power, firms are not spending and Government is not spending on productive expenditure hence the economy remains stuck in deflation. Therefore, demand is very low and the issue of cash has to be resolved because without addressing the cash problem, you are not creating the necessary demand and stimulus for the economy to respond.
Mr. Speaker Sir, the other worrying problem from our point of view is that of corruption. – [HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.] – Why did the Hon. Minister avoid this subject yet it is the most prevalent topic in this country? Corruption, corruption and corruption because corruption is a leak to the fiscus or represents a leakage in the public resources – it was vital for the Hon. Minister to announce measures that the Government is putting in place to tackle this scourge called corruption. I hope that in the 2017/18 Budget, he will be able to address the issue of corruption.
Mr. Speaker Sir, I also note that the Hon. Minister is pleased by the fact that the mining sector is on a rebound and is projecting a 5.1% output increase in the mining sector. Fair and fine, gold is doing well because we are artisanal miners, coal, and diamonds and so on but the problem is, we are still using the old extractive mining model where we are still extracting raw minerals and exporting them as they are. In the process, we are exporting jobs and losing revenue in the value chain. It is high time we start seeing gold refineries being constructed in this country. Processors to process our minerals, coal, diamonds and other resources have to be established. Mining is the future of the country and if we do not address it, we will continue to lose the potential value that this sector contributes to foreign currency generation, employment creation and so on and so forth. I think going forward, it is important to invest in a clear mining turnaround strategy.
The African Union (AU) has what they call, ‘An African mining vision’, which is basically a strategy on how mining should benefit the citizens of the country. This country is not getting anything from mining. The Hon. Minister says the whole of last year mining contributed only 2.2% of revenue. This is sad because if you are talking about growth, you locate it in mining yet it contributed only 2.2% of revenue – that should not be the case. We need to follow through the AU mining vision and try to see how mining can be used to achieve development and social economic transformation.
Mr. Speaker Sir, I also note that command agriculture is going to be rolled out to wheat, livestock, cotton, fisheries and other sectors. Fair and fine, but we need to improve on the public financial management system for this very important programme. I would rather have Parliament approve some of the financial arrangements that have been used to fund command agriculture because these are all public resources.
So, if Parliament can also have a look at those financial deals that can improve the thrust of command agriculture. Indeed, we want agriculture to rebound because we want self food sufficiency but at the same time, we must also improve on the transparency of the scheme. I also note that the expenditures that went to education and health in the 2016 Budget are too low. If you look at the magnitude of health problems in this country, you reckon that the health sector on its own needs a $1 billion budget. The education sector on its own, to deal with the crisis, we need about $1 billion, but what has been allocated to education and health in this 2016 Budget; less than $200 million. It is too little.
If you look at the health sector, cancer is killing more people than HIV/AIDS. We need Government to put more cancer screening centres in our hospitals. People are dying in the rural areas because they cannot access cancer screening and treatment. If you move in the rural areas you will find that there is a tragedy in our public hospitals. Therefore, $200 million budget in the health sector is just too little. We need the health sector as well as the education sector to grow to a billion dollars each so that we can take care of the welfare of our people.
Hon. Chinamasa projects that 2017 GDP growth will be 3.7% from 0.7% in 2016. I think he is being too optimistic. With the budget deficit that I have talked about; the infrastructure development challenges that I have talked about; I think a projection of 3.7% is too ambitious. We, on this side of the House would project a GDP growth of 1.9% for 2017 because of the structural constraints that we have highlighted.
Hon. Minister, you seem to be buoyed by fiscal resources that are not sufficient and yet there is an avenue through promoting both domestic and foreign investment to boost our local investment. I am glad that the Special Economic Zones are now being consummated; maybe there will be an avenue to increase the inflow of foreign financial resources. That is an avenue because other countries that are surrounding us have Foreign Direct Investment (FDI) levels of between
$3 -$5 billion. That really complements domestic resources.
As long as we shy from addressing issues of attracting FDI, we are not doing ourselves a favour because our budget will remain weak. Yes, the ease of doing business that is taking place is okay but there is one elephant in the living. That elephant in the living room is called indigenisation. The indigenisation policy is not doing us a favour. In the first place, no indigenisation is taking place. Secondly, because it is still there and insisting on a 51% threshold, it discourages the inflow of new capital.
If I ask you Mr. Speaker to tell me only 20 names in the whole country of indigenous Zimbabweans who have benefited from this Act on a large scale, the Minister will struggle to find the people that have benefited from the Indigenisation Act. Yet it is doing so much harm as a red flag to new direct investment. I would urge us to repeal this Act; revisit it and make sure that we attract more investment into the manufacturing, mining, agricultural and construction sectors. We need to see cranes in Harare, that will show you that the economy is responding.
China did three things to revamp their economy. They said they were going to pursue industrialisation, modernisation and reforms.
These reforms….
THE ACTING SPEAKER: Order, Hon. Member you are left
with five minutes.
HON. DR. MASHAKADA: These reforms, you know China is a
communist country; a command economy but they realised the value of investment. So, they opened up to Foreign Direct Investment so that they would increase their productivity and infrastructural capacity. So, they locked in all investments and investment came into China from America, Taiwan, South Korea and Japan. All those countries were investing in a communist country.
The President of the day said, I do not care the colour of the cat, as long as it catches mice. That is wisdom. You do not block or lock away investment. Let investment come. Do you know that China went to the extent of inviting Singapore to build one of the best Special Economic Zones in China? Just across Hong Kong, there is booming a Special Economic Zone built by Singapore. China gave Singapore 30 years to run the Special Economic Zones; the local municipality and all the infrastructure that Singapore invested.
After 30 years, Singapore handed over everything to China. Now, who is benefiting at the end of the day? It is China, that is why they are now the second largest economy. Economic dirigisme does not work.
We need to pay attention to investment.
I am also encouraged that development partners, from what Minister Chinamasa said, poured in about $500 million in various projects in this country. It speaks volumes to issues of bilateral and multi-lateral relations. We need to continue to improve our engagement with development partners and multi-lateral organisations so that they can complement our developmental efforts.
On public debt, I think we have performed dismally. We have only serviced our debt with IMF, which is to the tune of $150 million.
Since the LIMA Agreement of 2015 and by the way, in LIMA Minister
Chinamasa had undertaken to clear the debt, at least by end of 2016 but there are a lot of challenges. We still owe African Development Bank over $600 million and the World Bank about $1.2 billion. We are not making progress in our re-engagement efforts. Why, because we have to deal with other toxic issues that affects our relations with European Union, the Paris Club and so on. We need also to address these toxic issues.
What image does it give when we hear that the business premises of a Vice President of a party has been burnt – [HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear.] – Hon. Mudzuri’s enterprise has been burnt down – [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] – These are confidence issues that will affect the budget.
In assessing the budget, you do not only look at the macroeconomic things that I have been doing, you also look at the confidence issues as they affect the tenure and out-turn of the budget. You can only ignore that on your own peril because an economy is a holistic entity, you do not have to be blinkered. However, I would like to thank the
Minister for continuing to make efforts to stay the course under very difficult fiscal conditions. I hope that if other Cabinet Minister were going to be as hard working as he is, I think this country will be turned around. Thank you.
THE ACTING SPEAKER: Hon. Members, I think it is advisable
for us to first of all study the report that has been distributed to our pigeon holes by the Minister so that when we come here we make meaningful contributions. I thought Hon. Mliswa you need to first go and study the report then you can contribute meaningfully.
HON. MLISWA: Mr. Speaker, I object to that. There are certain issues which I will talk about which relate to what the Minister spoke. It is not all of us that are good in reading. Some of us listen more, we cannot read. In having to listen, that is the only time that we can be able to respond. I am certainly not a good reader but I am a very good listener.
THE ACTING SPEAKER: For the benefit of doubt, I will let you debate and then we will adjourn the debate to next week.
HON. MLISWA: Mr. Speaker, let me thank you for giving me this opportunity to comment on the budget review of 2017. Let me equally thank the Minister for the work that he is doing in ensuring that the country moves. He does his job and he actually came here to give us this review. The Minister is only a messenger, at the end of the day. I am hoping what I will talk about has nothing to do with the person of the Minister, but the office that he holds.
It is important that the ordinary person and we, Members of Parliament, relate this to what is happening on the ground. It would be remiss of us to come here and say the economy is great when the queues are still there. Just the queues being there, it is tough. I personally have experienced a problem where I could not access foreign currency when my father was ill. I did not want to use my office as a Member of Parliament, but I wanted just to be an ordinary citizen and say to myself, how do they carry out their duties at the end of the day. The truth of the matter is, the situation is not looking good. No wonder why the review was very short – because there was not much that he could attribute to the success.
We must not always believe that the documents that are written are really the answer. We have so many documents written in Zimbabwe, but they have never produced anything. So, this whole issue of being referred to a document by economists who are unemployed, who have nothing to do except give a clear picture of the economy from an academic point of view, is something that we are now used to, but the question is, what is happening on the ground?
I recall that when Parliament started, we had a time with the
Minister on domestic resource mobilisation. If you recall, Members of
Parliament were invited to Bulawayo. We were using taxpayer’s money. We lived in good hotels, had everything good for us and the issue was domestic resource mobilisation to get the economy going. I did not hear the Minister pointing out to our findings and our recommendations on the domestic resource mobilisation where the Speaker whipped us and said no, talk about this. Talk about domestic resource mobilisation which is key to the growth of the economy.
I am looking at US$80 million being pumped into diamond mining again, but diamond mining – we are yet to be told how much money we have received from diamonds in this country. We must be very clear because the Minister must not just tell us about how much money is put into a project, when he is not telling us what is coming out. When you are a farmer and you are putting eight bags of maize per hectare, you are expecting five tonnes as Command Agriculture did; why is the Minister not simplifying things and saying, in the diamond industry, this is how much we have received.
Let me talk about intellectual property rights, which are critical in investment. The Government has gone on to take diamond mines belonging to people that they entered into a partnership with, including the Chinese, who are your all weather friends. Anjin, you went and took. In taking those diamond mines - even Mhlanga, who was a war veteran, came up with a good idea, went into diamond mining, did as much as he could and the next thing, he does not have a diamond mine, but he is one of our own.
It goes back to the point of, if you look at it, how many people have we empowered as Zimbabwean - when we still go and grab what we have given them because of self interest. Someone wants to be corrupt, someone wants to eat. Executives in these companies have been torn apart because the Minister coming in wants to eat, but he cannot eat if he does not control the people that he has put in there.
I go to the aspect of corporate governance. It is non-existent in terms of us performing. Corporate governance also has to do with the
Government Ministries. The Auditor General’s Report, which is critical and I want to applaud the Auditor General of this country who has done a remarkable job. We are very quiet about it, we do not say much about it, but I want to kuvapasando dzavo like the saying goes – Auditor
General vedu venyika. She is doing her job. She exposes Government.
She exposes Government where even the money is given to the
Ministries, they cannot even account.
The Ministry of Finance and Economic Development, itself, cannot account for the US$500 million of 2016. We have the Minister of Finance and Economic Development telling us, yet his own Ministry cannot account for US$500 million. This is serious. We cannot be treated like children. What has happened to the money from the fiscas which is going to every Ministry? There is no response. So, the recommendation from the Public Accounts Committee chaired by Hon. Mpariwa, which has done an amazing job, exposes all that. It recommends all that. So, before we even think of doing anything, while Parliament is doing its job in exposing all these things, the Executive must be able to support what Parliament is doing, but they do not do that.
You have got Air Zimbabwe today. I do not care who the CEO of
Air Zimbabwe is, but what we want is performance at the end of the day.
Whether it is my brother, that is not the issue – are they able to perform. But you have an institution which the Auditor General has said cannot be run. It has failed. The Minister of Transport and Infrastructural Development clearly tells us in the report from the Parliamentary
Committee chaired by Hon. Nduna that certainly, they agreed to that.
The Minister of Finance and Economic Development equally in his parastatal’s report, which he does a good job, exposes and clearly says that parastatals are not performing, but you are putting US$220 million into parastatals which you yourself say are not performing. When have parastatals ever made money? Can he tell us how much money parastatals are expected to make from the US$220 million that is being given to them? There is no way we should allow such as situation where money is put in and you do not tell us what comes out. It has never worked like that. This is the money that is then stolen; there is corruption and so forth, because it is not being accounted for.
So, you now have a situation where the very same airline that we all agree and say cannot be run - you then have a Minister and I do not think it is fair, going with the Chief Operations Officer and not the Chief Executive Officer to Malaysia. So, the Chief Operations Officer, Mr
Chikore, is number two to the CEO, but the CEO who is responsible for the running of the organization is not there. So, who then signs? Now we have this that is happening and I am pointing out to issues of corruption.
Mr. Speaker Sir, I took off to tell the truth and I shall tell the truth as it is. Those that know the truth and are sitting in these meetings must know that we are speaking the truth. Even if you are not acting, it is being recorded that you are part of the demise of this country, allowing tax payers money to be going outside because you want to take care of certain people and positions so that you can keep your jobs as Ministers.
You want to appeal to the President. Even if it is the President’s son in law, tell the President what Parliament has recommended, what
Parliament has recommended is that we cannot put money into Air Zimbabwe. Tell the President what the responsible Minister has said that we cannot put money into that. For some reason, they disregard what we are doing. It must be on record that Parliament is doing what it can but the Executive is not playing ball and we cannot be held accountable for that.
We are also very clear in terms of the issues of Command
Agriculture. I am a beneficiary of Command Agriculture and the Minister is right to say that it has done well. It is the first time we have addressed the aspect of domestic resource mobilisation. We have resourced domestically and we have put it into production. The funny thing is that there is policy inconsistency. Amongst yourselves in Cabinet, you attack it. Others are saying it is working and others are saying it is not working. Just the other day, I even read the Vice
President, Hon. Mphoko saying it is not working but I equally hear the
President saying that it is a beautiful programme. So what is it about
Command Agriculture? Why are you confusing us? What is it about Command Agriculture? One minute the President says it is beautiful, the other minute the Hon. Vice President says it is not beautiful. Professor Jonathan Moyo says it is not beautiful. How can you expect investors to put in money? How do you expect companies to put in money into a progamme which has distortions? May Cabinet come up with a statement to say; is Command Agriculture working or not working?
With all due respect Hon. Minister of Finance, you are right but your fellow colleagues in Parliament, as I speak and as you were speaking, somebody was busy tweeting saying that Command Agriculture is not working.
THE TEMPORARY SPEAKER: Order Hon. Mliswa, you are left with four minutes – [HON. MEMBERS: Aiwaa aiwaaa!] – Order.
HON. MLISWA: Mr. Speaker Sir, there is the aspect of bond notes there so that we get enough foreign currency reserves? Let me thank the Minister of Finance and the Governor of the Reserve Bank for the discipline that you are showing. Yes, you cannot do much with the black market that is now there but I also want to say to you that there is a lot of foreign currency that is leaving the country.
The First Lady buys a ring for US$1.4 million when we are saving. You are not saying anything. Are there no rings for US$1.4 million in this country? We have diamonds in this country and we want to buy our own diamonds abroad and not to buy them here. Can we not make a
US$1.4 million ring and money stays in this country. I am looking for a day when our own Executive and Presidium will be leading from the front and buying rings here and not abroad because the very same resource is coming from here. – [HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.] - You are not even prepared to support the jewellery industry in this country.
In a way, that is externalization of foreign currency.
The Minister did not address the issue of Executive expenditure; flying out in big numbers. To me….
HON. MUPFUMI: On a point of order – [HON. MEMBERS:
Inaudible interjections.] –
THE TEMPORARY SPEAKER: Order, order! What is your
point of order?
HON. MUPFUMI: The Hon. Member is now going off topic –
[HON. MEMBERS: Aaaaaah!] –
THE TEMPORARY SPEAKER: Hon. Munengami, I will ask
you to leave the House. Order, order! You may continue but you are left with one minute.
HON. MLISWA: I want to say that the Executive expenditure has not been spoken about. How much is the Executive spending by going abroad? Surely, when you are going abroad, you are going to look for money but you never tell us how much money you come back with. All we know is how much money you spend when you go out. We cannot continue like this. It is the responsibility of the Executive to cut down on Executive costs. The Range Rovers you are driving, all the spare parts are foreign currency but we have got Willowvale Motor Industry which has now become a storage for maize instead of manufacturing vehicles. We have Ford and Mazda and we can do it in this country. How do we justify that? Why cannot Ministers and the Executive cut down on costs by driving cars locally made until we get to a certain point where we can all enjoy what we enjoy?
Members of Parliament are underfunded. We are not even able to perform our jobs. So, the aspect of expenditure is important. I like the fact that we have a relationship with the Chinese but what amazes me is that we seem not to learn from how China has improved its economy.
We seem to just focus on how China wins elections and not work on the economy. We seem to be going to China for election lessons and not for lessons to improve the economy. It is about time that when we go to China we engage the Chinese in how they run their economy and not how they run their elections and win.
THE TEMPORARY SPEAKER: Order, order Hon. Mliswa.
Your time is up.
HON. MUNENGANI: On a point of order Mr. Speaker, I propose that Hon. Mliswa’s time be extended by about fifteen minutes.
HON. MUKWANGWARIWA: I object – [HON. MEMBERS:
Inaudible interjections.] -
THE TEMPORAY SPEAKER: Order, order Hon. Munengami.
It has been objected therefore what ruling do you want from me.
HON. MATUKE: I move that the debate do now adjourn.
HON. MAHOKA: I second.
Motion put and agreed to.
Debate to resume: Tuesday, 25th July, 2017.
FIRST READING
INSOLVENCY BILL (H.B. 11, 2016).
THE VICE PRESIDENT AND MINISTER OF JUSTICE, LEGAL AND PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (HON. E. D.
MNANGAGWA) presented the Insolvency Bill (H.B. 11, 2016).
Bill read the first time.
Bill referred to the Parliamentary Legal Committee.
MOTION
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
THE VICE PRESIDENT AND MINISTER OF JUSTICE, LEGAL AND PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (HON. E. D.
MNANGAGWA): Mr. Speaker Sir, I move that Orders of the Day
Numbers 3 and 4 on today’s Order Paper, be stood over, until the rest of the Orders of the Day are disposed of.
Motion put and agreed to.
COMMITTEE STAGE
NATIONAL PEACE AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION BILL
(H.B. 2, 2017).
Second Order read: Committee Stage: National Peace and Reconciliation Commission Bill (H.B. 2, 2017).
House in Committee.
On Clause 1:
HON. GONESE: If you check in your notes, the last time we discussed on the preamble and we had not concluded, before we got to Clause 1, we started with the preamble. I have amendments, notices of which are already on the Order Paper Madam Chair. The last time before we adjourned and reported progress and sought leave to sit again, I had already motivated debate on the reason why I am proposing the preamble. The Hon. Vice President indicated that they wanted to study my proposed amendments. So, as of now we have not heard their response to the amendments to the preamble which comes before Clause 1. So, you have actually jumped the gun by going to Clause 1 when in fact we are still on the preamble. The notice of amendments is there on the Order Paper before you or the Minister, if she is the one who is handling this.
THE MINISTER OF STATE IN VICE PRESIDENT
MPHOKO’S OFFICE (HON. KANENGONI): Thank you Madam
Chair and thank you Hon. Member for your contribution and suggestions to changing the Preamble and other Hon. Members who debated on the same subject. After considering your contributions, we would like to state that though valid, we are saying the purpose of the Bill is stated in the Constitution where the Commission was established.
This proposed Preamble may have the effect of limiting the functions of the National Peace and Reconciliation Commission. The proposed Preamble also runs the risk of bringing in new content especially on human rights, yet this is not part of the functions of the NPRC as stated in the Constitution. The Commission is not yet fully operational as it awaits the finalisation of this enabling legislation that will allow it to conduct investigations, to hear the matters brought before it and to perform other functions conferred upon it by the Constitution.
Thank you Madam Chair.
HON. GONESE: I am happy that the Minister from her response has indicated that the proposed amendment to the Preamble is valid. I would like to request that they reconsider the latter as I have indicated. I think the proposal does not subtract anything from the Bill as stated in the Constitution. I would want to urge the Minister to consider the amendment, which I think will be an improvement and this has been confirmed by her concerns that the proposal is actually valid. Thank you.
HON. KANENGONI: We really would not like to take the risk of going against what the Constitution has stated and we would like to stick to the confines of the Constitution in this regard. So, we will humbly reject your proposal.
HON. GONESE: For the sake of progress, although I do not agree with the reasoning of the Minister Madam Chair, we may proceed but otherwise I am not really in agreement. I am not persuaded by the arguments of the Minister.
Amendment to the Preamble put and negatived.
Preamble put and agreed to.
On Clause 1:
HON. GONESE: I move the amendment standing in my name
that in line 47 on page 4 of the Bill, to delete “2017”. This one is just a simple suggestion for the removal of 2017 from the clause so that the clause simply reads National Peace and Reconciliation Bill. You do not need to add the 2017. I did not see the value of having 2017 added. That was the reason why I made that simple suggestion.
THE MINISTER OF STATE IN VICE PRESIDENT
MPHOKO’S OFFICE (HON. KANENGONI): Thank you Hon.
Member. The year 2017 denotes the year when the Bill was brought before Parliament. Therefore, in legal drafting stating the year is in line with the citations of all Bills. So, it cannot be unique to just this one Bill.
HON. GONESE: For the sake of progress Madam Chair, I am not going to persist with the amendment. So, I am withdrawing it and we can move forward.
Clause 1 put and agreed to.
On Clause 2:
HON. GONESE: I move the amendment standing in my name
that between lines 12 and 13 on page 5 of the Bill, to insert the following definition:
“human-rights violation” means an infringement of any right protected as a fundamental human right by the Constitution or customary international law or by an international convention, treaty or agreement to which Zimbabwe is a party;”.
My suggestion is really that human rights violation is what we are dealing with in this Bill and it is my considered view that we must have at least a definition so that anyone who looks at the Bill and more particularly when it becomes an Act, understands precisely what we mean when we refer to human rights violations. I have attempted to give a definition which I think is in sync with international best practice.
I believe there cannot be any objection to this addition which will enable anyone; members of the public, people who are specialists in issues and matters which are dealt with by this Bill so that at a glance, they know precisely what we mean by human rights violation. On this one, I would really ask that let us have it included so that it enriches and improves the Bill, and also adds to the definitions which are already in the Bill.
THE MINISTER OF STATE IN VICE PRESIDENT
MPHOKO’S OFFICE (HON. KANENGONI): With all due respect
Hon. Member, there is nowhere in this Bill where the term human rights is used. Therefore, we cannot define a term that is not used in the Bill at all. The terms that are defined are the ones that will be used in the document. In section 243 of the Constitution, in F and G that is where issues that the Commission are supposed to handle are defined but human rights is not a term that is used in the Bill.
HON. GONESE: Yes, that is precisely the point that when we are dealing with matters of reconciliation and are covered by the Bill, surely when you look at matters of human rights they ought to be covered. You will find that this is precisely the point that we are making that it is important to have that incorporated in the terms which are going to appear in the Bill. When you look at the other amendments which I am going to propose, they actually go to the root of the issues which the Constitution attempts to deal with when it makes provision for the establishment of the National Peace and Reconciliation Commission. I believe that it does not subtract but rather it does the exact opposite which is enhancing the value. I would have expected the Hon. Minister to, at least on this one, make a concession so that we improve the Bill collectively and move together in one direction.
HON. MAJOME: Thank you Madam Chair. I rise to support the
proposal by Hon. Gonese that since this Parliament is required by the Constitution to make laws for the order and good governance of
Zimbabwe, any proposal or amendment that proposes to enhance statute should, in my very respectful view, be something that the Hon. Minister can take abroad. It does not harm at all. In fact, it enhances and it would be unfortunate if the Hon. Minister was to give the House and Zimbabwe the impression that she and the organ do not want to have anything to do with human rights, that they are going to do everything they can to avoid the very notion of human rights because they want human rights only to be dealt with by the Human Rights Commission. That would be most unfortunate because it would not be in the spirit in which matters of peace and reconciliation are concerned. The fact that the Bill does not say the word ‘human rights’ does not necessarily mean that the Bill does not deal with human rights. I cannot imagine or think of any other Bill that has come before this House that deals with human rights more than this Bill. It will also be good to remind the Hon. Minister that matters of human rights are binding and give obligations on everybody. I want to specifically refer to the provisions of Section 44 of the Constitution which is on the declaration of human rights in the
Constitution.
Section 44 provides that, “the State and every person, including juristic persons such as the Executive arm of Government where the Hon. Minister is, and every institution and agency of Government at every level which also therefore includes the Ministry and this House as it is considering the Bill - must respect, protect, promote and fulfil the rights and freedoms set out in this Chapter”. I do not want to get into the rights and freedoms set out in this chapter but those very issues of peace and reconciliation that the Commission will deal with. The complaints that will be brought will be complaints of certain people that will involve the violation of the rights of others and even the right to administrative justice that will allow everyone who has been wronged to approach the Commission to administer that.
I want to believe that this august House as well as the Hon.
Minister has a duty to promote the human rights of others and to fulfil. In promoting that, putting, considering and adding this definition of what a human rights violation is, is something that would indeed comply with the provisions of the Constitution because it would indeed make the work of the Commission easier. It helps if it knows what it is dealing with in terms of its jurisdiction and the issues that it will deal with. It is my prayer that the Hon. Minister takes a warmer attitude to matters of human rights because they are universal and they apply to everything and help all of us despite of who or where we are. Matters that we might think do not matter, on some day because we are all human, we will all need to be protected by these human rights. In my view, it will do us good to adopt this very harmless but very beneficial proposal to define what human rights violations. Zimbabweans will be coming to the National Peace and Reconciliation expecting that their issues are dealt with in a different manner of course from the Human Rights
Commission, like violations that have an impact for the future. I thank you.
HON. CHINANZVAVANA: Thank you Madam Chair. Could I make a humble appeal on the proposed amendment by Honourable Gonese, for the Minister to reconsider that amendment that we need the words human rights violations in the Bill as it is in fact. We cannot talk of reconciliation of a nation without talking of human rights. What really are we reconciling on when we are not talking of the violations of human rights that have been perpetrated against society? I thank you.
HON. TOFFA: Thank you Madam Chair. I would like to stand in support of Hon. Gonese with regards to the inclusion of human rights because the people that are being affected will not understand that they as people are being considered on their human rights. People out in the communities are waiting to hear that they are being considered.
Therefore, I humbly ask that the Minister reconsider this.
HON. KANENGONI: Thank you very much Hon. Members for
your humble suggestions. The purpose of this Bill is to operationalise the Commission and the work that they will be doing. Everything that extends to what you have all suggested comes with the work that they will then be doing and how they will be dealing with the people on a case by case basis. The suggestion that has been given to include the term ‘human rights’ in the glossary has to do more with, when a person is reading the Bill and they understand what is inside the Bill. That is why I was saying that the term ‘human rights’ itself is not in the Bill. So putting it there does not really help a person to understand further because inside the document, the term is not used.
The suggestion has to do with defining a concept that will be used in the Bill, for a person reading it to understand. The issues you are talking about now have to do with when the Commission is doing its day-to-day duties, of which they will define how they do it; the way they will be different from what we are talking about here; which is why we are saying we cannot define a concept that is not discussed in the Bill itself. I thank you.
HON. GONESE: Thank you very much Madam Chair. It does appear that we are appearing to be at cross-purposes. The essence of the issues we want to address is that in the past, we have had certain situations that have occurred. It is my understanding and belief that those issues really go to the root of the rights of the people of Zimbabwe but as it appears to me, the Hon. Minister’s attitude might be that it is like the Bill is cast in stone or cast in concrete. I do not know how much more we can do to reach out to the Minister to say that I want to be on the same page. We want to travel in the same direction but if the Hon. Minister is not amenable, it might appear that we will go round and round.
For that reason Madam Chair, I may not persist with my amendment, although I feel that it was well intentioned. The basis for the objection or the refusal to accede to that proposal arises more from the fact that the attitude of the Executive is that some of the Bills that they bring to us are cast in concrete to the extent that we are not supposed to give any input. At the end of the day, we appear like a rubber stamp which is simply there to rubber stamp something that comes when in fact the idea of the Committee Stage, is to have certain proposals and suggestions that can be made in order to add value. We will see as we go along what the responses will be to other issues that we have raised. For now, I will not persist with this particular amendment.
THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: Hon. Gonese, are you
withdrawing your contribution?
HON. GONESE: This is an amendment that I have made, is it not? What we want to have is a situation where we can discuss but in the event that the Hon. Minister is piloting the Bill and already in her response, she has shown that she is not agreeable. That is the reason why effectively I said I will not persist. If I am not persisting, it means the import of it is that I am withdrawing the amendment.
HON. CHIRISA: Thank you Madam Chair. Maybe I am
ignorant but the reason for bringing the Bills is for us to debate and agree. When it seems that the Minister has come prepared to sail it through, whether it rains or not, it gives us the impression that we are here to rubber stamp what the Minister has brought. You will find that as we go along on the clauses, she will still be saying, we cannot put this in the Bill but should be dealt with in the Commission’s terms of reference. I think we should also consider other people’s contributions.
I thank you.
THE MINISTER OF STATE IN VICE PRESIDENT
MPHOKO’S OFFICE (HON. KANENGONI): Thank you Madam Chair. I want to make it very clear that we are not here to disagree. We have considered your submissions and that is why we took them, went back, looked at them and have come back. So, it is not our intention to just come and say no. We really have considered and we have consulted widely. That is why we are here to give our feedback.
HON. GONESE: Just to draw the Minister’s attention to the
proposed amendment in Clause 3, if you look at Clause 3, there is also an amendment …
THE HON. CHAIRPERSON (HON. DZIVA): We are not yet
at Clause 3.
HON. GONESE: I know but it actually answers her. You remember when she responded, she had said that there is no mention of human rights violations in the Bill. I wanted just to bring to your attention that in paragraph (d) of Clause 3, we actually have a proposal and I will read it, “to develop and operate programmes to provide support for victims of human rights violations …” In other words, we made a proposal for that definition to be incorporated in light of the other proposed amendments, which you were going to respond to that query.
You find that the proposal in Clause 3 is actually very comprehensive and for me, it would give a broader context and give effect to the constitutional provision itself. When you look at the Constitution, which is quoted in the Bill, you will find that under paragraph (e), under the functions of the National Peace and
Reconciliation Commission, 252 Hon. Minister, it actually talks of the Commission under its functions; to develop programmes to ensure that persons subjected to persecution, torture and other forms of abuse receive rehabilitative treatment and support.
In other words, even though the word may not be mentioned specifically that human rights violations, what we are talking about when we talk of forms of abuse, we are precisely talking about human rights violations. Talking of torture, there can be no greater violation of human rights than torture. As a result, I was of the opinion that if we look at it in its totality, that definition will be necessary, particularly in view of the fact that there is a further proposal under the amendment or the proposed amendment to Clause 3 to then define the term and to have it as part of the Bill. That is why I would, for the last time, plead or ask the Minister to reconsider it.
HON. KANENGONI: Madam Chair, he has made reference to
Clause 3, which is two clauses away from the stages that we are going through, so I would prefer to go back to Clause 1 and we can get to where he is talking about when we get to it.
HON. GONESE: Perhaps the Minister did not get clearly why I referred to Clause 3. Clause 3 answers the point which she has raised that there is no definition or mention of human rights violations in the Bill. If she were to accede to the amendment of Clause 3, it would then rectify that issue. The main reason why she was not agreeable to have the definition of human rights be part of the interpretation clause was because it is not mentioned in the Bill.
All I am doing Madam Chair is to point out to her that there is a proposal to have that included. If it were to be agreed to, then it cures the anomaly which she has mentioned that you cannot define a term which is not mentioned in the Bill because that term would then be mentioned. So, we cannot at this point say we cannot make reference to Clause 3 because Clause 3 is actually answering the query or the anomaly which she has pointed out. There are also other proposed amendments, which will actually have the definition of human rights, or rather would have the name human rights being part and parcel of the Bill. So, procedurally I am correct to make reference to that because it responds to a query.
HON. KANENGONI: Thank you Hon. Member and Hon. Chair. As I have said before in my first response, we really would not want to seem as if we are trying to duplicate the job of another commission that already exists that deals with human rights. So, we stand by our decision.
HON. GONESE: I just need to respond finally. Since my last appeal has not been acceded to, I can do no further than say that reluctantly and with a very heavy heart, I have to withdraw the amendment and then we can make progress.
Amendment to Clause 2 put and negatived.
HON. GONESE: I move the amendment standing in my name
that;
Clause 3
In line 38 on page 5 of the Bill, in paragraph (a) of subclause (2) to delete the words “to conduct” and to substitute “on its own initiative or
on receipt of a complaint or at the instigation of any person, to conduct.”
Again Madam Chair, this clause is proposing that in line 38 and on page 5 of the Bill, we delete the words “to conduct” and to substitute “on its own initiative.” The main motivation for that suggestion Hon.
Minister is really to expand and this is in conformity with what the Constitution provides for in terms of the functions of the National Peace and Reconciliation Commission. It is just to broaden the scope of its operations.
The amendment speaks for itself; it is very clear. It is actually speaking to having the Commission to develop and operate programmes and provide support for victims of human rights violations and also to include issues of rehabilitation, counseling and medical treatment, which really go to the route of what the Commission is about. It also allows the Commission to collect and preserve information, subject to any other law to ensure that the information referred to is accessible to the public. Surely on this one, I just hope that we will have a situation where the Hon. Minister will try to take on board this very useful addition to the Bill.
HON. KANENGONI: Thank you Chair and thank you Hon. Member. Hon. Member, as you were reading I was trying to keep up with the actual amendment that you gave. It is in line 38 on page 5, is that so?
HON. GONESE: Yes.
HON. KANENGONI: It sounded like you then went on to talk about the two others that are after this one. Can I just read it as you have submitted so that we agree that I am responding to the correct thing. That in line 38 on page 5 of the Bill, in paragraph (a) of subclause (2) to delete the words “to conduct” and to substitute “on its own initiative or on receipt of a complaint or at the complaint or at the instigation of any person to conduct.” In response, Section 252 of the Constitution defines the 10 functions of the Commission. The Commission is not being operationalised to conduct investigations only but it even needs to develop and implement programmes to promote national healing, unity and cohesion in Zimbabwe and the peaceful resolution of disputes amongst other functions.
Going back to what you said in terms of enhancing the work of the Commission – there is nothing wrong with enhancing their work, however, moving outside of the functions that are defined in Section 252 would be very difficult for us to agree with. Giving the Commission power to make its own investigations which have not been reported to it may lead the NPRC to a fishing expedition, which may result in wastage of resources and not yield the intended results. The Commission has to focus on the given functions within its stated life span so that they do not focus on their own personal functions but stick to the ones defined in Section 252 of the Constitution.
HON. GONESE: I think what I want to emphasise is that the
Commission is given specific functions by the Constitution but over and above that, we would want, within the spirit of what is provided for in the Constitution, to give some latitude to the Commission. This will assist in a situation where, in terms of its broad mandate and sometimes the appreciation that there can be an overlap between the functions of the Zimbabwe Human Rights Commission and that of the National Peace and Reconciliation Commission. That overlap is inevitable in view of the fact that the issues which they will be dealing with have some similarities and obviously there will be some differences. What is being proposed in this amendment does not make the Commission do things which are outside the mandate of the Commission but rather it is actually giving the Commission more teeth and in terms of operationalisation, the Commission can be more effective. If the Hon.
Minister reads carefully what is being proposed, she will realise that the Commission is not being moved away – unfortunately she is being destructed by the Chief Whip and I am not even sure how much she has grasped from what I was saying.
All the same, I was simply saying that the proposal does not result in the Commission going on a frolic of its own. It is within the spirit of the functions which are already set out in the Constitution and that is the reason why I am not in agreement with her response when she said that it will then allow the Commission to go out on a frolic of its own. If you look closely at some of the functions which are being proposed there, it is simply going to get the Commission having broader powers which are clearly spelt out. For instance, when talking of arbitration and mediation and you look at the qualities of the Commissioners as a requisite set out in the Constitution, we look at people who are experienced in matters of mediation, negotiation and arbitration. Those are precisely the qualities we looked at when we appointed the commissioners. So, if we looked at those qualities, it was to enhance the work that they are going to carry out by incorporating the detailed functions which are now in the Act. When operationalising the Commission, we are expanding what has been given in the Constitution as a broad framework. When this Bill becomes an Act, it then sets out to broaden and I believe that in the process of broadening and expanding, we are actually making improvements to the Bill. For that reason, I would say that perhaps the best approach might be for us to report progress and seek leave to sit again so that the Hon. Minister can have a thorough scrutiny of what we proposed.
THE MINISTER OF STATE IN VICE PRESIDENT
MPHOKO’S OFFICE (HON. KANENGONI): Thank you Hon
Member, I accept your suggestion. Madam Chair, can I seek leave to sit again while we further scrutinise the given suggestions.
House resumed.
Progress reported.
Committee to resume: Tuesday, 25th July, 2017.
On the motion of THE MINISTER OF STATE IN VICE
PRESIDENT MPHOKO’S OFFICE (HON. KANENGONI), the
House adjourned at Seven Minutes to Five o’clock p.m. until Tuesday 25th July, 2017.
PARLIAMENT OF ZIMBABWE
Wednesday, 19th July, 2017
The National Assembly met at a Quarter-past Two o’clock p. m.
PRAYERS
(THE ACTING SPEAKER in the Chair)
ANNOUNCEMENTS BY THE ACTING SPEAKER
VISITORS IN THE SPEAKER’S GALLERY
THE ACTING SPEAKER (HON. MARUMAHOKO): Order, I
recognise the presence in the Speaker’s Gallery, of students and teachers from Gotora High School in Buhera and Speciss College in Chitungwiza. You are most welcome – [HON. MEMBERS: Hear,
hear.]-
PETITION FROM HWANGE RESIDENTS ASSOCIATION
THE ACTING SPEAKER: I have to inform the House that on the 12th of July, 2017, Parliament of Zimbabwe received a petition from the Hwange Residents Association beseeching Parliament to exercise its oversight function and protect the constitutionally guaranteed right of Hwange town residents to water. The petition has since been referred to the Portfolio Committee on Local Government, Public Works and National Housing.
INVITATION TO THE HEALTHY CITY CLEAN-UP AND
WELLNESS AWARENESS CAMPAIGN
THE ACTING SPEAKER: I also have to inform the House that the Office of the President and Cabinet invites all Members of the
Portfolio Committees on Health and Child Care and Environment,
Water, Tourism and Hospitality Industry to take part in the Healthy City
Clean-up and Wellness Awareness Campaign, which will be held on the 3rd of August, 2017 in the central business district of Harare.
MINISTERS WITH LEAVE OF ABSENCE THE ACTING SPEAKER: I have received apologies from the
following Hon. Ministers:
- Damasane;
- Chidhakwa; iii) Hon. F. Moyo; iv)Hon. Dr. Mpofu;
- v) Mlambo; vi) Hon. Chikwama; vii) Hon. V.P. Mnangagwa; viii) Hon. V.P. Mphoko; ix) . Hon. Kasukuwere;
- x) Bimha; xi) Hon. Muchinguri; xii) Hon. Sen. Mupfumira; xiii) Hon. Sen. Mathuthu; xiv) Hon. Dr. Parirenyatwa; xv) Hon. Mumbengegwi; and xvi) Hon. Prof. J. Moyo.
- [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.]-
THE ACTING SPEAKER: Order! Hon. Members, let us have
order.
HON. ADV. CHAMISA: Thank you Mr. Speaker. I was reading
- through you Mr. Speaker, if you may ask Hon. Chinamasa and Hon.
Made to listen to what I am about to say because it concerns Government.
THE ACTING SPEAKER: Order Hon. Members. You may
force me to send one of you out.
HON. ADV. CHAMISA: In terms of our Standing Order Number
63 as read together with Standing Order Number 26, Ministers who are not able to come to Parliament are supposed to seek the leave of the
Speaker and that of Parliament. You have mentioned a whole list of Ministers who are not present; did they seek the leave from you? Was the leave granted and did they explain the reasons? Why I am saying this is, this provision is not there for the mere asking. It is there to make sure that Ministers who do not come here because they have chosen to go to other pursuits or their own frolics, they are censured and reprimanded.
I am just asking you Hon. Speaker so that we are clear. As Parliament, we do not want a habit of Ministers who just come here to say I am not coming to Parliament. It is not adequate; it is not sufficient. If they are not coming to Parliament, they must give us a reason because we know that some Ministers abandon this august House for other small houses, which may be where-ever they are. We want this august House to be respected. If you may clarify this Hon. Speaker.
THE ACTING SPEAKER: What do you mean by small house, Hon. Member?
HON. ADV. CHAMISA: A house in Cabinet is a small house
compared to this august House. So, it is very important. You heard what I said.
THE ACTING SPEAKER: Hon. Chamisa, by the virtue that I
have this list of the apologies, that means they have been granted the leave they sought from Parliament.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE
HON. CROSS: Thank you Mr. Speaker. My question is directed to the Minister of Finance and Economic Development….
THE ACTING SPEAKER: May you raise your voice Hon.
Cross, I cannot hear you from here.
HON. CROSS: Minister, the Ministry of Transport and
Infrastructural Development is proceeding with a number of major contracts. I am referring to Beitbridge-Chirundu, refurbishment of the National Railways of Zimbabwe and also the re-capacitating of the Air Zimbabwe.
These three projects amount to nearly $3 billion of new Government of Zimbabwe obligations. I simply want to know from a policy point of view, what kind of authority should be gained for these major commitments from the House before they can be proceeded with. For example, I understand the leases on new equipment or second hand equipment for Air Zimbabwe is in the process of being finalised but we have not seen any documentation. We have not seen any sign of the contract. There is no transparency.
THE ACTING SPEAKER: Order Hon. Cross. Hon. Mandipaka,
can you hear what Hon. Cross is saying?
HON. MANDIPAKA: I hear nothing because there is a lot of
noise.
THE ACTING SPEAKER: Yes, there is a lot of noise in this House. Hon. Members, can we please respect this Chamber. –[AN HON. MEMBER: Machinja arikuita noise.] – You are no different from those who are making noise.
HON. CROSS: I just wonder how these major contracts can proceed without any kind of Parliamentary oversight. I just want you to clarify the position of Government on this.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE AND ECONOMIC
DEVELOPMENT (HON. CHINAMASA): Thank you Mr. Speaker. I
would like to thank the Hon. Member for posing those questions. It gives me an opportunity to clarify a number of misconceptions that the
Hon. Member is entertaining.
My understanding and I need to be corrected, the dualisation of Beitbridge –Harare is off the balance sheet of Government because it is a BOOT. It means that the contractor or the investor is bringing his money to do the road under an arrangement where he can recoup his investment over a period – I think in this case it is over 25 years. I believe you break even probably at 18 years and recoup in 25 years.
With respect to National Railways of Zimbabwe, the Minister of Transport and Infrastructural Development and I took to Cabinet a proposal that we be allowed to look for an investor on the basis of loan financing, or equity financing or both. That has not been happening but at least now we have a basis which we can engage would be investor.
If we find an investor who wants to put equity, we will say yes because we now have the full approval of Cabinet. If we find that we cannot get it fully financed through equity, then we need also to look for a loan. So, there is that flexibility and nothing has happened. We are still at a stage where we are looking out for investors. The same thing with respect to Air Zimbabwe; clearly Air Zimbabwe is an important public entity and my own position is that we want an entity which can just break even. It does not need to make a profit because there is an economic return by operating Air Zimbabwe which is to bring in more arrivals and more tourists to our country. If that is achieved, like we have already started to see happening in Victoria Falls, that is more than good for the Treasury, for the economy of this country.
So as of now, you mention about what you have been reading in the newspapers, I also must ask you where you are getting that from. When anything has happened, we will let you know. The Minister of Transport and Infrastructural Development will also let you know.
We are pursuing a lot of ideas, a lot of initiatives. No one initiative should be concluded or determined as having succeeded before it succeeds. We would not want to have adverse comments on initiatives that we are taking before they materialise. So, I would want to say to the Hon. Member please, be patient. We are pursuing various initiatives, especially with respect to state enterprises. We are engaged in state enterprises reform. We want to make the state enterprises get to a position where they can contribute meaningfully to the GDP. So, we are pursuing a lot of initiatives, but we would not want to discuss initiatives before we even engage the investors. That will not make sense. We cannot negotiate in public. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
HON. MARIDADI: Thank you Mr. Speaker. I wish to thank the Hon. Minister for the explanation. Hon. Speaker, the problem we have with state enterprises is not that they lack capital or there are no initiatives to raise capital. The problem we have with state enterprises is that they are badly managed - firstly, by management which is in place and secondly, by Government interference.
We know that state enterprises are havens of corruption, rent seeking and patronage. Hon. Minister, you can raise billions of dollars to put into state enterprises. As long as they are badly managed, as long as Government uses them for corruption, for rent seeking and for patronage, they will not make money.
Hon. Minister, what have you done to change the paradigm at state enterprises and the paradigm in Government when it comes to
Government’s relationship with state enterprises? Thank you.
HON. CHINAMASA: The question by Hon. Maridadi is not quite arising from the question that was posed by Hon. Cross.
Notwithstanding, I will respond to your question.
With respect to state enterprises, let us not make the mistake of blanketing all of them to be what you have alleged. Clearly, if you say they are all corrupt, it is not true. If you say all of them are badly managed - again, it is not true. There are some which are badly managed, there are also some where corruption may be residing. For us to know where corruption is, we kindly ask Hon. Maridadi to give us evidence.
HON. MARIDADI: Oh, Minister...
THE ACTING SPEAKER: Order, Hon. Maridadi.
HON. CHINAMASA: No, no, please, give us evidence so that we can pursue these matters. We cannot deal with these matters in general terms. We have to be specific. When you are alleging someone has committed a crime, we must come up with evidence and not to be very general.
Now, I agree with you for instance, that some of the challenges are to do with bad management, which is why we are bringing a piece of legislation here; Public Entities Corporate Governance Bill and to be gazetted this Friday. It took some time because the matters stand out to be more complex than we had originally anticipated. I thank you Mr.
Speaker.
HON. NDUNA: Thank you Mr. Speaker. Hon. Minister, thank you for your answer but I am quite aware that Government has taken over the COTTCO debt of about US$68 million. It has also taken over the debt of CSC so that it looks attractive to investors. Do you have any plans of taking over the debt of NRZ and also cleaning the balance sheet of Air Zimbabwe and maybe trying to revitalise Air Zimbabwe by making them engage IATA so that they are also booking for other airlines and vice versa? I speak like that Hon. Speaker because I am Chairman of your Committee, Hon. Speaker.
HON. CHINAMASA: Once again it is not arising from the question posed by Hon. Cross. The short answer to what Hon. Nduna has asked is that I already took a proposal to Cabinet about two or so weeks ago for approval to assume the debts, for Treasury to assume the liabilities of Air Zimbabwe, NRZ and Civil Aviation Authority.
I want the balance sheet of these entities to be cleaned up with a view to looking for new investors. As we do that, we are insisting that we will not put money into a parastatal until we get the management in that parastatal back on a proper footing. The Bills will come here. We are in the process of drafting the Bills and when they pass through the necessary procedures in Cabinet, we will be able to bring the Bills in here.
HON. ZINDI: Hon. Speaker, I just want to find out from the
Minister of Finance and Economic Development what advantage has it got for the Government to carry the burden of parastatals like we are suggesting – NRZ and all other parastatals? What advantage has it got other than having to shift the burden from the parastatals to
Government? Can the Minister explain so that we understand exactly the implications of Government to have to inherit all those debts?
Thank you.
HON. CHINAMASA: Thank you Mr. Speaker Sir. I will not have time to go through parastatal by parastatal because when we make these decisions, we are looking at the pivotal role that the parastatal plays in the economy of the country. I can respond, say with respect to NRZ. A transport system without a railway system and I think that the debates in this House have indicated, it is not good enough. Currently, the lifespan of our roads is shortened because heavy traffic which should be moving on the rails is moving on the roads.
So, whatever happened in the past, we cannot run away from the fact that a railway system in Zimbabwe or in any other country is a very important cog in the transport system of any country. So, for that reason I took the decisions that we have to assume the liabilities of NRZ in order to make it possible for investors, whether through equity or through loan financing, to come in and invest in the railway system.
As you are aware Mr. Speaker Sir, the National Railways of
Zimbabwe is already a company under the Company’s Act. So, it has a framework which allows equity investment into the railways.
With respect to Civil Aviation Authority, it is the authority which runs airports. If you do not have it, you should not have airports. Again, it is very important. What I think is important is to go back to the earlier question asked by Hon. Maridadi. We must address the issues of management so that our resources are taken care of properly and are accountable but I do not think anyone can quarrel with the importance of Civil Aviation Authority. In the same way, I do not expect anyone to quarrel with the importance of Air Zimbabwe in the transport system also. I thank you Mr. Speaker Sir.
*HON. CHIKOMBA: Thank you Mr. Speaker. My question is directed to the Minister of Home Affairs. I know that there are spot fines that are charged on the roads. For those with companies, we cannot give monies to the drivers to move around with. Is it not possible to get duplicate ticket so that we go and pay later on. For spot fines, they cannot pay the money. I think it is better to give a duplicate and you give us seven days to pay for us with companies - to pay.
THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS (HON.
MGUNI): The new integration system that we are to unveil soon will allow a person not to pay there and then, but to carry the receipt because that receipt will also be known at the centre or data area so that every detail of that offender is captured. This means that it will be traceable so they will be able to pay within those seven days.
HON. SITHOLE: I just want the Hon. Minister to update the House and the nation at large the progress that they have made in terms of reduction of roadblocks on the roads, since he had promised that during the first or second week of July, they would have reduced the road blocks to four per province.
HON. MGUNI: Thank you very much Mr. Speaker Sir. I think the progress is really notable because I travelled to check out some of the roads that we were concerned about in terms of the number of road blocks. For example, the Bulawayo-Harare road, if everybody can agree because I travelled on Thursday last week; I met three roadblocks on the road, which was remarkable. I also travelled through the Masvingo one
-[HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] –
THE ACTING SPEAKER: Order Hon. Members. Do you not
want to hear the Minister’s response?
HON. MGUNI: We are also continuing – when we hear the motorists saying that the roadblocks are too much, we go and check. We are still in the process. We will not stop until everybody is satisfied.
HON. SITHOLE: The point of clarification that I want from the Hon. Minister is that he must come up open to Parliament and to the nation at large in trying to explain what he means because a roadblock is different from a spot check. People are more worried about the presence of police on the road. People are not interested in seeing numerous numbers of police officers on the road. He might say they have reduced the roadblocks but still the police will be present and they will be saying they are not roadblocks but spot checks. We want the Minister to differentiate the two.
HON. MGUNI: The Hon. Member was making a comment but I
think I can clarify what he was saying. He is correct that there is a difference between roadblocks and spot checks. We had a meeting with the Zimbabwe Tourism Association and the Ministry. The Deputy Minister was also there. The Zimbabwe Statistics were also there. They made a survey and they briefed us and said yes, we have reduced the number of roadblocks. The problem now is the attitude of the officers. They are happy with the reduction of roadblocks and they now want to change the attitude of the officers. We made a deal that Zimbabwe Tourism Association will help us in training our police force. We have one group that has gone through. Other groups are also going to be trained.
I think we cannot completely do away with police on the road.
There should be visibility but now we need to change the officers’ attitude. They have to go for client diplomatic service. I thank you.
*HON. MAVENYENGWA: My question is directed to the Minister of Sport and Recreation, Hon. Hlongwane. In our constituencies, we have sport clubs for netball and football at each Ward. For each of the disciplines, three clubs were required per each district. What plans do you have to ensure that the clubs that have been formed have the necessary equipment so that the clubs can be developed? I would want to find out what Government’s intention is in ensuring that these clubs have the necessary equipment that they can use so that they can have development, talking about football and such other things. I thank you.
*THE MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION (HON.
HLONGWANE): Thank you Mr. Speaker. Let me thank the Hon. Member for his question. First and foremost, as Government, we are implementing the sport and recreation policy that we passed last year in August. The major aspect of that policy is that sport should be disseminated to communal lands especial those so called elite sport so that our sport reaches the grassroots. We agree that we should form clubs at grassroots level. The clubs will then be used for the development of the various sports and disciplines. What we did was to help with resource mobilisation for such programmes. There is a
Committee at district level; it is called District Sport and Recreation Management Committee. The functions of that Committee, apart from coming up with sporting programmes, inter-alia are to do a local resource mobilisation strategy. It is correct that as Government, we should be funding those programmes. We agreed that even if we do not have funding for this year, we should continue with this programme, do our monitoring and evaluation to see witnesses of the programme. We also asked our sport federation or National Sports Associations to receive grassroots sport development funds so as to develop our sport at grass root level. So, I understand that what you are asking me is more of feedback and the Minister of Finance and Economic Development is listening, we will conduct discussions to see what should be put into the budget so that Treasury can fund us as a Ministry in the following budget.
HON. MLISWA: Thank you Mr. Speaker. I totally agree with the
Minister but what I want to ask the Ministry of Finance and Economic
Development being the line ministry, why do you not allow Members of Parliament to bring in kits which are duty free for your intended goal of this sport policy?
HON. HLONGWANE: Thank you Hon. Speaker. The position
of the law is that all sporting goods and equipment that include kitting and other materials, if they are donated to the relevant National Sport Association, they are allowed into the country duty free. So, the question that the Hon. Member has raised is particularly relevant and it is a question of coordination between ourselves so that we direct accordingly the paper work regarding whatever materials that they are bringing into the country in as far as arrogating that to a particular discipline is concerned.
The Acting Speaker having nominated Hon. Mupfumi to ask a question.
*HON. CHINOTIMBA: On a point of order Mr. Speaker Sir. THE ACTING SPEAKER: What is your point of order?
*HON. CHINOTIMBA: You said after the previous speaker, I should rise and pose my question. I have observed that you have skipped me but you had previously recognised me before him.
*THE ACTING SPEAKER: I was looking for the name of the
Hon. Member who is nearer to you. I had not specifically said I had recognised you but be that as it may, I will give you the opportunity to speak afterwards.
*HON. MUPFUMI: Thank you Mr. Speaker. My question is
directed to the Minister of Welfare Services For War Veterans, War Collaborators, Former Political Detainees and Restrictees, what is Government saying about war veterans that were injured during the liberation war, some of them are crippled, some are wheel-chair bound, some lost limps, legs and arms and they are being given the same amount as one who had a mere finger injury. What is Government policy regarding this issue? I thank you.
THE MINISTER OF WELFARE SERVICES FOR WAR
VETERANS, WAR COLLABORATORS, FORMER POLITICAL
DETAINEES AND RESTRICTEES (HON. T. J. DUBE): I wish to thank the Hon. Member who represents Mutare, Dangamvura-Chikanga, Hon. Mupfumi for asking this question. To start withm, I must say that when this vetting was done of those who were incapacitated during the war, I agree it was not properly done. I would rather wrong you and myself than wrong the dead. The person who actually did most of this vetting was Dr. Hunzvi and I think he was overwhelmed when he carried out this vetting. They were hundreds of war victims who came for vetting; I do not think he gave enough time to each victim to determine the level of incapacitation. Some of them were considered 5%, 10% degrees of injury and so forth. So, it is not our Ministry that determines the rate of injury on a victim. We only accept what the doctor has written. I think now since we are better organised, those who feel that they were not fairly vetted can go back to a Government medical doctor and then he can determine the percentage of injury, we will accept it. Any recommendation from the doctor, we will accept it accordingly, I thank you.
*HON. ADV. CHAMISA: My question to our Hon. Minister of
War Veterans as a follow up to Hon. Mupfumi’s question is that you have explained that the assessment of injuries sustained by war veterans was looked into at the time of the advent of Hon. Hunzvi’s chairmanship in 1998 when the assessments began. What it then means is, if we look at the previous times, a few days or months ago when war veterans said they no longer want to be involved in politics; looking at this issue, is our Government really serious about redressing the plight of war veterans? I say so because the majority of our war veterans’ children’s fees have not been paid. Others have not yet had their matters sorted out like the life of the Late Chinx Chingaira was not what is expected of a war veteran, someone had to donate a house. As a follow up, I need to understand. I was going to pose a question if you allow me Hon. Speaker, I read in the newspaper when I was likened to a mosquito and this troubled me a lot... – [Laughter.] -
THE MINISTER OF WELFARE SERVICES FOR WAR
VETERAANS, WAR COLLABORATORS, FORMER
POLITICAL DETAINEES AND RESTICTEES (HON T.J. DUBE):
Hon. Speaker Sir, I thank Hon. Chamisa for raising this question. In answer to his question, I must say that our economic challenges do not allow us to give adequately what we can. So, this is the problem that we have. Just now, we have 18 000 registered war victims in our register. When I say war registered victims, I do not mean those who were injured by motor bicycles or something. I mean just those who were injured on war related problems. The real problem is that we are overwhelmed and not able to cater sufficiently for war victims but we meet basic requirements such as limps and some other areas that we can look after. As our economic situation improves, we shall do likewise.
Thank you.
HON. ZINDI: In relation to the question that has been raised to do with the issue of war veterans, I would like to find out from the Minister, what measures he is currently taking or is contemplating to undertake in as far as what is required to be fulfilled under the War Veterans Act in terms of setting up a board that should look into the issues of the war veterans. The last board, if my memory saves me well, was in
2000/2003. Ever since, there has not been any thinking along the lines of establishing a war veterans board to look into the welfare of war veterans. What is the Ministry thinking?
HON. T.J. DUBE: I wish to thank the Hon. Member for raising this question. We now are working on the alignment of laws to the Constitution where this matter is being raised. The question of the formation of a board is also one of those things that are being considered. It is now at Cabinet stage and from Cabinet, it will be coming to Parliament, and I think that will be very soon, maybe before the end of the year. That question will be covered then.
*HON.ENG. MUDZURI: My question is directed to Hon.
Minister Made. It is about farmers. I want to find out from Minister Made what Government policy is in communal lands which is the bread basket of Zimbabwe? There used to be District Agriculture Shows. I passed through Chivi and saw a group of farmers who were asking for donations so that they can hold their District Agriculture Show. How is the Ministry assisting such farmers in encouraging them so that they can get prices for their agricultural shows or is it the Ministry or
Government’s policy to give prices to these farmers so that they are encouraged to become better farmers? I thank you.
*THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, MECHANISATION AND IRRIGATION DEVELOPMENT (HON. DR. MADE): The
question is two pronged. Part of the question is policy and what we can say is that all agricultural shows are held by Agricultural Show
Societies. It is not the Ministry’s area. The Show Societies are at different levels, starting from the cell or ward, province and they are in various forms depending on the commodities. It could be maize or soya beans only.
The Agriculture Ministry and our agriculture extension officers urge the farmers to conduct these shows and they play a pivotal role in ensuring that these shows are held as well as working hand-in-glove with the Show Societies so that these become successful. They look for prices from different organisations. Some of these are given by input suppliers. Our Hon. Members who are rural based also organise such prices. That is the position and it is not us who are responsible for urging them to give a particular item for a specific agricultural show. I thank you.
*HON. ENG. MUDZURI: My supplementary to Hon. Made is, I do not believe you understood my question. As Ministry of Agriculture, you represent Agricultural Show Societies and the Ministry, in regard to ensuring that farmers practice the best farming practices. Is the Ministry supposed to come up with a policy or not to ensure that you assist the farmers so that they can hold these shows which are in aid of farming?
Once there is competition amongst the farmers, you also raise the level of farming and then say for rapoko, in such an area we give a particular price. You could be doing that as an independent body and not being involved. What is Government’s policy if the society is not doing that work?
*THE ACTING SPEAKER: Hon. Mudzuri, the way I understood your question, he has adequately covered and he came up with different societies and the Members of Parliament that can also assist. That was his response and I believe he has covered your question – [HON. ENG. MUDZURI: Aiwa, ndavati ivo seGovernment vanoita sei?] – Order, please. Let him answer.
HON. MAONDERA: My point of order is that Hon. Matangira is talking unparliamentary language here. Hon. Eng. Mudzuri has had his beans burnt today and we do not understand now when he is saying unparliamentary language which is hurt language, yet the Vice President has lost his property through arson. So, can he please withdraw what he said?
THE ACTING SPEAKER: What unparliamentary language? I did not hear what he said. Can you say what he said? – [HON.
MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] – Order, please.
HON. MAONDERA: He said ‘Ibva apo, gara pasi’ referring to
Vice President Mudzuri. – [HON. MEMBERS: Ehe adaro.] –
THE ACTING SPEAKER: Order please. He said ibvapo, gara pasi does not relate to what you have been trying to say. It was only ibvapo, gara pasi and yes, it is unparliamentary but why these additions?
HON. MAONDERA: I am saying this to the fact that Hon. Mudzuri has lost his property through fire and he is grieving. So for someone to shout and say ibvapo, gara pasi is not proper – [HON.
MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] –
THE ACTING SPEAKER: Hon. Munengami, you are in
Parliament. I do not need to remind you that.
HON. MUNENGAMI: I am not the one Mr. Speaker.
THE ACTING SPEAKER: I was watching you – [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] – Order please, what is wrong with you. Hon. Matangira, if you said that, may you withdraw?
*HON. MATANGIRA: I am being marked by those on your left Mr. Speaker Sir because some of us are doing very well in our constituencies. I did not say that.
*THE ACTING SPEAKER: Hon. Matangira, did you say that?
If you did say that, please withdraw.
*HON. MATANGIRA: If you have gone to take a bath and a fool takes your clothes – [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] – Let me withdraw Mr. Speaker – [HON. ZWIZWAI: Inaudible
interjection.] –
THE ACTING SPEAKER: Hon. Zwizwai, I think this is the second time I have mentioned your name. The third time, I will ask you to leave the House.
*HON. DR. MADE: Thank you Mr. Speaker. I believe I have clearly answered the question. In my response, I did mention that our land extension officers assist and they are in the forefront in ensuring that these shows are held and that there are various commodities, cattle for instance. I thank you Mr. Speaker Sir.
*HON. ZINDI: Thank you Mr. Speaker Sir. My supplementary question to the Minister of Agriculture comes from Hon. Mudzuri’s question. He responded that as Hon. Members of Parliament, we could also raise funds to ensure that we have such agricultural shows. Will the Ministry of Agriculture provide us with the funds? I believe the Minister is listening because I think someone is talking to him. Are we going to be given the funds from his Ministry for us to be able to conduct these agricultural shows in our constituencies because the meagre salary that a Member of Parliament receives will not permit him to buy awards and move from one ward to another. Hon. Members are failing to do that, that is why in certain wards in some constituencies we are failing to hold these shows. I need clarification.
*HON. DR. MADE: I gave a clear example and I would want to thank Hon. Zindi – [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] –
THE ACTING SPEAKER: Order! Hon. Members, you are making a lot of noise in this House. Hon. Members, can you not be quiet for a while.
HON. DR. MADE: I thank Hon. Zindi for the question she posed. I gave examples so that she could understand. I said Hon. Members of Parliament in certain areas are assisting their farmers by looking for funding and I did not say that our Ministry is assisting those Members of Parliament. I thank you.
+HON. R. MPOFU: Thank you Mr. Speaker. I would like to find out from the Minister of Local Government, Public Works and National Housing, what Government policy is concerning the houses that were built under Garikai/Hlalani Kule, specifically in Maphisa Growth Point. The houses were properly built but the problem we are facing is that there is no proper sewer system. People have built sewer tanks but the houses are too close to each other such that when there is heavy rainfall, it becomes chaotic. This situation might lead to cholera outbreak on our people.
THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT,
PUBLIC WORKS AND NATIONAL HOUSING (HON.
CHINGOSHO): Thank you Mr. Speaker Sir. I would like to thank the Hon. Member for the question. At the Garikayi/Hlalani Khule, people were moved in the area before the necessary infrastructure was in place. We are working backwards trying to put the necessary infrastructure like the sewerage, water reticulation as well as electricity in place. This is what the Ministry is doing now. I thank you.
+HON. R. MPOFU: Thank you Hon. Minister even though you did not respond to my question in Ndebele. The truth is that people are really sad because this matter has not been looked into and though there are now many houses. I think you should look into the issue of setting up a sewer system as well as electricity. As I speak right now, some of the houses have no toilets and they actually relieve themselves everywhere.
Can the Government look into this issue at Maphisa Growth Point as a matter of urgency. Thank you.
HON. CHINGOSHO: Thank you Mr. Speaker. I would like to thank the Hon. Member. I take what she has said as a comment; a comment which the Ministry should implement. I agree with what you are saying that the situation is bad. It needs to be attended to as a matter of urgency. I thank you.
*HON. MLISWA: Thank you Mr. Speaker Sir. My question to the Deputy Minister of Local Government, Public Works and National Housing is - there must be sewer and other amenities before people build their houses. We are seeing private land developers constructing houses without this town council’s recommendation, but town councils are turning a blind eye and people are building. What is Government doing to stop those land developers in carrying that act; Government also included. It is flouting the same rules.
If you go to Norton, all the sewer is now going into the
Darwendale Dam. Fish in Darwendale are feasting on raw sewage.
What is Government doing to stop developers so that they can comply with the Physical Planning and Town Planning Act? I thank you.
*HON. CHINGOSHO: I would like to thank the Hon. Member
for what he has said. As I have already pointed out, we are in agreement with what you are saying that the state of affairs is not good. As a result of that, at the moment the Ministry has instructed local authorities; I think you all know that the responsibility of the areas that you are talking about falls under councils. It only came to the attention of the
Ministry recently that the developers are blatantly flouting those rules. So, the directive that was given by the Ministry is that no one is allowed to carry out any construction before the required infrastructure is in place.
Furthermore, the problem is that stand owners are supposed to pay certain amounts which they do not do. That is why it is taking long to make sure that this issue is resolved but the Ministry is trying its best to ensure that it is resolved.
*HON. MAHOKA: Thank you Mr. Speaker. My supplementary question goes to the Minister of Local Government, Public Works and National Housing again. Hon. Mpofu said that the Ministry is constructing houses for Hlalani Kuhle where they do not have the required amenities in place.
As Government, what does the policy say? We have people who are already in Kezi and you are saying you are writing letters to the councils so that they should not build those houses. Is there a law and what does it say? You are talking of writing letters.
*THE ACTING SPEAKER: Hon. Mahoka, I heard the Minister
saying that at the moment no one is allowed to do any construction without having the necessary amenities in place. That is the letter that he is talking about.
*HON. MAHOKA: Maybe the letter was written yesterday but if it was written months ago, houses are being constructed. May be we should practically show the Minister where construction is actually taking place where there are no sewer lines.
*THE ACTING SPEAKER: This is a pertinent question. If you know of a particular place, put your question in writing so that investigations are done and they will give you an answer which is accurate. I thank you.
HON. SITHOLE: My point of order which is a point of privilege is an issue of national interest emanating from the duties of Parliament as clearly stated in Section 119 of the Constitution, read in conjunction with Section 2, which talks about the supremacy of the Constitution.
I would want the House to request the Leader of the House for today Hon. Chinamasa to issue a statement in relation to the rising of political violence which the country has witnessed over the past two weeks. Just two weeks ago, we saw an MDC motor vehicle which was petrol bombed in Kuwadzana. Last night, a Kuwadzana councillor’s house was destroyed and lost property worth thousands of dollars. Early this morning, property belonging to Hon. Vice President for MDC, Hon. Mudzuri has been burnt through an act of arson. We would also want to know what the Government is doing?
As the investigations are underway, the Minister of Home Affairs has actually made conclusions that this is done by MDC members, which is not supposed to be the proper way of doing things. So, may Hon. Chinamasa issue a Government Ministerial Statement in relation to the rising cases of political violence? Even yesterday here in this august
House, we experienced political violence where Hon. Mukupe and Hon. Katsiru wanted to fight inside this august House.
THE ACTING SPEAKER: Thank you Hon. Member. While the
issues that you raised are pertinent, I am sure there is a time where you should raise those issues. Where you raise matters of public importance; there is a provision for that. If you could reserve it for the right time.
*HON. CHINOTIMBA: Thank you Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker,
before I pose my question we ask that Ministers that would have come to the House should not leave. I wanted to ask the Deputy Minister of Tourism and Hospitality Industry. She is no longer here. She just made an appearance and went away. It is my request that Ministers that would have come to the House only leave the chamber after we have completed asking our questions because they should not come here to put up appearances.
I wanted to ask a question to the Minister of Tourism and
Hospitality Industry, so I can no longer pose any question – [HON.
MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.]-
THE ACTING SPEAKER: Order. You can direct your question to the Leader of the House.
*HON. CHINOTIMBA: Thank you. Let me ask the Leader of the House.
*THE ACTING SPEAKER: Order. Hon. Chinotimba, please resume your seat. Leader of the House, Hon. Chinotimba is not happy that the Minister came, she did not stay – two minutes later she went away. He had a question to ask her, so I want him to direct the question to you.
*HON. CHINOTIMBA: Hon. Chinamasa, the Matendera Ruins
is a place of national heritage. It is in Buhera. My question is, there are no curators that can give a description of the place. There are no people who, when school children are taken to that area, can take them on a guided tour on the history of that area.
Our children waste money going to Victoria Falls and other areas at the expense of knowing about Matendera Ruins. When are we going to have a curator who can give the history of Matendera Ruins to visitors? I thank you – [AN HON. MEMBER: Your question is specific. You must put it in writing.]- It is not specific – [HON.
MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.]-
*THE ACTING SPEAKER: Order, order please! Hon. Chinotimba, take your seat. Order Hon. Members! Hon. Chinotimba, you have just asked a question and you are busy talking now. Order, order please!
I do not want to labour the Minister. Please put your question in writing. This is not a question on general policy. If you put it in writing, they will carry out an investigation and come up with a response to you.
*HON. CHINOTIMBA: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker Sir – [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.]- Shut up, I want to ask my question!
THE ACTING SPEAKER: Hon. Members when there is a point
of order let us take our seats. What is your point of order?
*HON. CHINOTIMBA: I had a complaint that I wanted to ask a question and she came here and she is harassing me – [HON.
MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.]-
THE ACTING SPEAKER: Order, order!
*HON. MACHINGAUTA: Thank you Mr. Speaker Sir. My
question is directed to the Deputy Minister of Primary and Secondary Education. What is Government policy as regards the use of
Government property by political parties? What is Government policy on political party programmes? I thank you.
*THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF PRIMARY AND
SECONDARY EDUCATION (HON. PROF. MAVIMA): Thank you, Mr. Speaker Sir, for the question from the Hon. Member. Schools have authority to decide how they use their property, when and why –
[HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.]-
Hon. Speaker, the majority of schools are capable of raising funding through using their buses because they would have come up with concessionary rates with different organisations. Churches hire buses and as a Ministry, we do no mind as to who they hire out their buses to because the SDA of that particular school and that leadership control their assets. I thank you Hon. Speaker.
*HON. MACHINGAUTA: Thank you Mr. Speaker Sir. When I
posed the question, I said, what is Governments policy as regards the use of Government property and I gave an example of buses.
On my supplementary question, I am saying, there is an outcry in Zimbabwe from schools and parents about buses and lorries that are taken by the ruling party which uses these buses and lorries for their own political party programmes and that political party firstly, is not paying for the services of those buses, secondly, that the political party is not servicing these buses and thirdly, there should be no political interference at schools. Is it not good policy, we should leave the school environment and not abuse their property because we find that some assets will come back with used condoms and damaged. Would it not have been good that political parties refrain from using school assets without interference?
There are colleges and schools that are given instructions by the Minister to bring buses and school children to political functions. Can the Minister clearly explain the policy? Some of these properties are dumped at the conclusion of these political functions. I thank you –
[HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] -
THE ACTING SPEAKER: Order! I believe the Hon. Minister has said that the use of such assets is in the hands of the SDA – [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.]- Order please! If you have a specific issue please, write to the Minister and mention the school by name so that they can investigate the issue and give you a response.
HON. MUNENGAMI: On a point of order Hon. Speaker…
THE ACTING SPEAKER: I am not taking your point of order.
Sit down.
HON. MUNENGAMI: Hon. Speaker, you have only allowed one supplementary question but before you have been allowing other supplementary questions. Just because it has been raised from the opposition side you cannot take it. That is not fair.
THE ACTING SPEAKER: Sit down.
HON. PARADZA: My question is directed to Minister
Chinamasa – [MDC HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] –
THE ACTING SPEAKER: Order, order please!
HON. PARADZA: Hon. Minister, some two years ago…
HON. MATSUNGA: On a point of order –[HON. MEMBERS:
Inaudible interjections.] –
THE ACTING SPEAKER: I will send you out.
HON. MATSUNGA: Hapana hapo chakaipa. Ndinoenda kumba.
Ndati point of order –[AN HON. MEMBER: Hapana point of order.] –
THE ACTING SPEAKER: What is your point of order?
*HON. MATSUNGA: Thank you Mr. Speaker. The time for
questions without notice is up.
THE ACTING SPEAKER: Thank you.
HON. PARADZA: Hon. Minister, two years ago there was a Commission of Inquiry –[HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] – which was set up to investigate the losses caused by the conversion from the Zimbabwean dollar to United States Dollar…
HON. MATSUNGA: On a point of order…
THE ACTING SPEAKER: I have answered you. Can you take
your seat?
HON. MATSUNGA: But Speakerka it is bad.
THE ACTING SPEAKER: Take your seat.
HON. PARADZA: We have heard from newspaper reports that there are some squabbles within that Commission – [HON.
MATSUNGA: Simply because I am a lady.] – We want to know when we are going to have the results from this Commission and when are we going to have compensation from this Commission.
An Hon. Member having stood up.
THE ACTING SPEAKER: Take your seat Hon. Member. You
are making a lot of noise and I am going to chase you out. Can you take your seat?
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE AND ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT (HON. CHINAMASA): I thank the Hon. Member
for his question. The Commission of Inquiry which was appointed by His Excellency to look into the conversion of values from the
Zimbabwean dollars to the United States dollars has completed its work and have done their report. They are now waiting to be given time to present that report to His Excellency the President. It is after the presentation that the report will be made public. The Hon. Member goes on to ask, when they will have their compensation. He is now presuming the outcome of the recommendations. We do not know what the Committee or the Commission is going to report. We can only wait to hear what its recommendations are after their investigations and the presentation of the report to His Excellency. I thank you.
Questions Without Notice were interrupted by THE ACTING.
SPEAKER in terms of Standing Order Number 64.
HON. MARIDADI: On a point of order, the Deputy Minister is walking out. My point of order relates to the Deputy Minister. Hon
Chinotimba raised a very important…
THE ACTING SPEAKER: Order Hon. Minister of
Environment. Can you just take your seat for a while?
HON. MARIDADI: Hon. Chinotimba raised a very important issue that he wanted to ask a question without notice which was going to be directed at the Deputy Minister and she was outside. When the Deputy Minister came back, Hon. Chinotimba I think received a lot of threats from the Hon. Deputy Minister and we are now fearing for the safety of Hon. Members of Parliament. We had a similar incident yesterday and it has recurred. We are waiting for your ruling.
I am told that the Hon. Deputy Minister threatened Hon. Chinotimba. He might be scared to go back to Buhera. Mr. Speaker, with all due respect, can we be protected and can we have your ruling so that Members of Parliament are free and protected from Ministers or Deputy Ministers because they carry guns and they have bodyguards or state security. They may shoot us – [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible
interjections.] -
THE ACTING SPEAKER: Order Hon. Members. Hon. Maridadi, the concern which was raised by Hon. Chinotimba was that the Minister was around and she did not spend two minutes and was out and he was about to ask the question. I handed the matter to the Leader of the House. I think that has been dealt with – [AN HON. MEMBERS:
Ndezvekunyepa izvi.] – Wait a minute. You do not tell me what to say.
THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF ENVIRONMENT AND
HOSPITALITY INDUSTRY (HON. ANASTANCIA NDHLOVU):
On a point of order, I did not spend two minutes in this House. I
actually came way before Hon. Chinotimba and I was here before half past two. It is very abusive for the Hon. Member to claim that I came for two minutes and so forth. With all due respect, Ministers are only human and just like any other Member of Parliament, they are also allowed to go to the bathroom. I thank you.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS WITH NOTICE
PROGRESS MADE BY SMES AND FINANCE AND
DEVELOPMENT ON THE NATIONAL FINANCIAL INCLUSION
STRATEGY
- 1. MANGAMI asked the Minister of Finance and
Economic Development to:
- Appraise the House on the progress made by the Thematic working group on SMEs, Finance and development, specifically on the
National Financial Inclusive Strategy
- State what innovative financial products for the Small and Medium
Enterprises has the group come up with.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE AND ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT (HON. CHINAMASA):Mr. Speaker Sir, the
thematic working groups under the Financial Inclusion Strategy are making steady and tangible progress. The main achievements of the National Financial Inclusion Strategy include the recently availed SME facilities by the Reserve Bank and the increase in the opening of low cost accounts in banking institutions.
Honourable Members may be aware that the Reserve Bank
recently availed facilities for SMEs including a facility for cross border traders. These facilities will enable SMEs to access affordable funding to invest in productive activities that generate employment, increase exports and reduce poverty. These facilities amount to US$90 million.
Another programme that has been successful is the opening of low cost accounts or “no frills accounts” with low Know Your Customer (KYC) requirements and minimal bank charges for SMEs, informal traders and low income persons. According to the January 2017 RBZ
Monetary Policy Statement low cost bank accounts increased from 229 264 in March 2016 to 1 230 052 in December 2016. It is anticipated that these low cost accounts will increase the number of beneficiaries of Government initiatives and facilities that are targeted at SMEs.
The thematic working groups under the Financial Inclusion Strategy are working systematically to make proposals that will create a financial system that is more responsive to the needs of all Zimbabweans. I thank you.
INSTITUTIONS UNDER JUDICIARY MANAGEMENT
- HON. MANGAMI asked the Minister of Finance and
Economic Development to
- State the benefits of placing institutions which are underperforming under judiciary management.
- State whose interest does the judiciary management serve.
- State the institution by name that have succeed under judicial management and those that failed to perform and give reasons for such.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE AND ECOMIC
DEVELOPMENT (HON. CHINAMASA): Thank you Mr. Speaker
Sir. The question raised by the Hon. Member is in three parts. My response in respect to the first part, - [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] –
THE TEMPORARY SPEAKER (HON. DZIVA): Order Hon.
Members. Hon. Masuku order please – [HON. MUNENGAMI: Sorry
Hon. Speaker, I did not know that you are now on the Chair. Sorry
Madam Speaker.] –
HON. CHINAMASA: Madam Speaker the response to the first part of the question is the objectives of a judicial management order is to avoid the drastic remedy of winding up when a company is in financial difficulties due to mismanagement, indebtedness or some other cause but where there is a reasonable probability that under more carefully controlled management it will surmount its difficulties. Section 300 (a) (ii) of the Companies Act [Chapter 24:03] expressly requires such a reasonable probability to be established in an application for a provisional judicial management order. The court has wide discretion in deciding whether to issue a provisional judicial management order and in exercising this discretion it will be reluctant to grant an order from which shareholders seek to benefit from keeping creditors waiting a long time for payment especially if there are few shareholders and the creditors could expect to be paid in full on winding up. But if the creditors are unlikely to receive anything on winding up the court will take into account that their position cannot be worsened and might be improved by judicial management.
Madam Speaker, the proposed Insolvency Bill which is being sponsored by the Ministry of Justice, Legal and Parliamentary Affairs seeks to simplify the law, regulate business rescue practitioners and introduce a code of conduct for those practitioners. If that Bill is enacted into law it will modify judicial management proceedings which will be called corporate rescue proceedings under which the company will be placed under supervision, if the board has reasonable grounds to believe that the company is financially distressed; and there appears to be a reasonable prospect of rescuing the company. This will allow viable firms to be revived, thus preserving jobs whilst allowing those companies which cannot be salvaged to be quickly liquidated.
Madam Speaker, with respect to second part of the question, this depends on whether it is successful or not. Judicial management does preserve jobs which liquidation does not. If successful, it will serve the interests of the company’s stakeholders which include its shareholders, creditors and employees as the company returns to viability. If the judicial manager is unsuccessful, the converse is true, all stakeholders will lose and the loss under a liquidation scenario is generally significant. The distribution of the proceeds of liquidation will follow the usual order of preference with secured creditors enjoying the highest level of preference.
With respect to the last part of the question, it is important to appreciate the difference between a company in financial distress and a company which is in economic distress. Companies in financial distress are likely to survive and are less difficult to fix than those suffering from economic distress. Companies which are in economic distress are unlikely to be revived as their products and processes are obsolete. The business model may no longer be appropriate.
As such, companies in financial distress with good management and support from stakeholders have tended to do well. Examples of companies that successfully came out of judicial management include:
- Cairns Holdings Limited ran for 2-3 years under judicial An investor, Takura Investment was secured. The company was able to benefit from policy intervention by Government protecting local producers from imports. I am referring here Madam
Speaker to Statutory Instrument 64 of 2016.
- Blue Ribbons Foods was also placed under judicial management following the receipt of necessary regulatory approvals in relation to indigenisation a Tanzanian investor Bakhresa invested into the company and thereby revived it back to life.
- Zimasco is currently under judicial management but is reported
to be now running viably and has made significant payments to creditors and retrenched workers. The company is exporting chrome ore following requisite policy support from Government.
- Zimalloys is under judicial management but an investor has since been secured.
Madam Speaker, other companies did not come out of judicial management. In terms of section 306 of the Companies Act, if at any time the judicial manager is of the opinion that the continuation of judicial management will not enable the company to become a successful concern, he/she may apply to the court, for the cancellation of the relevant judicial management order and the issuance of an order for the winding up of the company. For instance Gulliver’s and Apex Holdings were eventually liquidated although they began under judicial management because it was not possible to revive their operations. ZimGlass Pvt Ltd moved from judicial management to liquidation due to ageing and obsolete plant and equipment, amongst other things. I thank you Madam Speaker.
HON. HOLDER: Thank you Madam Speaker, my supplementary
question is to do with this judicial management. Shabanie-Mashaba Mines closed more than 15 years ago and was put under judicial administration with 26 subsidiary companies. The board was dissolved and all powers were put to only one person who is an administrator. What policy have they put in place now to prove that the judicial management has actually done good to Shabanie Mine because right now it is actually in a worse state?
HON. CHINAMASA: Madam Speaker, with respect to the question which relates to SMM Holdings, Shabanie-Mashaba asbestos mine the short answer is that Government which has the majority shareholding in that company is looking for an investor to partner so that we can revive those mines. I thank you.
HON. HOLDER: The Hon. Minister has said that Government has the majority shares in Shabanie-Mashaba Mines, has Government got the share certificates to prove that they have got majority shares in Shabanie-Mashaba mines or is it just being said but there are no actual share certificates?
THE TEMPORARY SPEAKER: I think the Hon. Minister has
responded to your question. When the Minister says something he is talking about something that is official. So, your question has been answered.
HON. MUTSEYAMI: My supplementary question to the Hon.
Minister is that can he confirm whether it is a fact that Mr. Mawere who used to run the business is prepared to come back and invest in the project regardless of the issue that you have just presented that you are looking for an investor. Already, there is Mr. Mawere who is prepared to come back, invest and revive Shabanie Mine to yesterday’s status. Is it a fact?
HON. CHINAMASA: Madam Speaker, I am not privy to the
information that the Hon. Member has given to this House. I would respectfully ask him to put it down in writing and address it to the line Minister, in this case the Minister of Mines and Mining Development.
HON. MUTSEYAMI: My spirit to this question, specifically to the Hon. Minister of Finance is not necessarily with line ministries but purely to do with the attitude of Government. You being the Leader of the House, basically you must have basics to respond to this. What is the attitude of Government having Mr. Mawere coming back to invest in Shabanie Mine?
HON. CHINAMASA: Madam Speaker, I cannot add more to the
answer that I have given already.
*HON. PHIRI: My supplementary question to address the second part of the answer given by the Minister that judicial managers will have seen it fit that nothing is being produced and they hand it over. Judicial managers are beneficiaries to the properties that they are managing and in the majority of cases, they start selling the company properties. Does the Government have intervention measures in the event that judicial managers start asset striping? I give an example of David Whitehead where the judicial managers are selling the properties because they get a percentage out of the sales. What are Government’s intervention measures so that assets are not stripped?
*HON. CHINAMASA: I would want to thank the Hon. Member
for his question. Secondly so that we understand each other, if a company is properly running its enterprise the owners of the company are shareholders. In the event that the shareholders have difficulties in running the company and approach the courts to offer voluntary liquidation or when they go to court for judicial management, they are no longer in control of the company but creditors. They then request the judicial manager who now reports to the creditors on everything that he or she does. The shareholders are no longer in the picture. Therefore, if you see a judicial manager selling property it is not the brains of the judicial manager. He will have been instructed to behave in such a manner by the creditors.
First they hold a meeting and agree that it has reached this position, what should be done. He is advised to dispose of a particular asset so that they can benefit. That is my explanation to the Hon.
Member that once a company is under judicial management or liquidation, shareholders no longer play an active role in the running of that company. The creditors now have a say in how the company operates.
DEPOSIT-TAKING MICROFINANCE INSTITUTIONS
- HON. MANGAMI asked the Minister of Finance and
Economic Development to inform the House on how safe the Deposit – Taking Microfinance Institutions are and to further state who will pay if they collapse.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE AND ECONOMIC
DEVELOPMENT (HON. CHINAMASA): Hon. Members would be
aware that deposit taking microfinance institutions are subject to prudential regulation by the RBZ in the same manner and way as other deposit taking banking institutions are. When I am talking about other deposit taking banking institutions, I am talking about our commercial banks such as Barclays, Standard Chartered, Stanbic or CBZ. These are deposit taking banking institutions. So, the rules which apply to CBZ also apply to a deposit taking microfinance institution.
In addition Madam Speaker, they are subject also to prescribed minimum capital and prudential liquidity requirements which currently stand at $5 million and 30% respectively. To start a deposit taking microfinance institution, you need minimum capital of $5 million and also you are required to keep a liquidity requirement of 30%.
Furthermore, the Microfinance Act Chapter 24:29 also requires deposit taking microfinance institutions to adopt good corporate governance standards and disclosure requirements.
The Deposit Protection Corporation Act Madam Speaker requires all deposit taking institutions to contribute to the Deposit Protection Fund that protects deposits. In the event of failure, deposits in the deposit taking micro financing institutions are covered by the deposit protection corporations. Therefore, in the event that a deposit taking micro finance collapses, depositors are insured by the deposit protection corporation to a maximum of $1000 per depositor. I thank you Madam Speaker.
HON. SANSOLE: Thank you Madam Speaker. I want to find out from the Minister whether the Minister has considered regulating the interest charged by such deposit micro finance institutions in view of the disparity between the interest paid out on deposits which is as little as 10 percent per annum and the interests charged from loans from such institutions which is 10 percent per annum compared to the interest charged on loans which is 10 percent per month in some cases which is about 120 percent per annum or more. I thank you.
HON. CHINAMASA: I thank Hon. Sansole for that question. The short answer Madam Speaker, is that these issues apply not just to the issues raised by the Hon. Member, they apply not just to micro finance institutions but also to commercial banks. The question about what interests are paid on deposits; what interests are charged on loans, are matters that are regulated by the Reserve Bank of Zimbabwe. I think that Hon. Members need to be aware that there was at one time when commercial banks were charging anything up to 40 percent interest but through moral suasion, we do not believe, but only as a last resort, that we should regulate interest rates by law. The market should try to determine prevailing interest rates. However, through moral suasion by the Reserve Bank, they have succeeded to reduce interest rates to a maximum of 12 percent per annum. We are still not happy with that level and we are continuing to urge commercial banks including micro finance institutions to reduce their levels of interest rates.
You said they are charging 120 percent per annum, I am not sure whether that is correct but it is a matter that I will refer to the Governor to assess whether that is correct or not. Clearly, if that is so, we have a long way to go to basically make sure that they reduce it to where it should be. I thank you Madam Speaker.
HON. GONESE: On a point of order Madam Speaker. If you look at question numbers 4, 5, 6 and there are quite a number of questions that have been deferred from the 3rd of May. As you know with written questions, the relevant Minister is given adequate notice.
As you are also aware Madam Speaker, when it comes to written questions, the responses are prepared by the Ministry officials and it is the practice in this august House that other Ministers can be given those responses. I believe that it is not acceptable Madam Speaker, to have a situation where questions are continuously deferred on the basis that the relevant Minister is not there when in fact his Ministry officials have been aware of the question and they can prepare the answer. We have some Ministers here, we have Minister Mandiwanzira, Minister Made, Minister Chinamasa who could make the response on behalf of the relevant Ministers – another Minister has just walked in.
I want to put it on record so that we do not have a shortage of Ministers who are available and if the Ministry had done its work, we would have been able to do justice to those questions. I want the Chair to make a ruling and say that the Executive must take the business of this august House seriously. In that regard, they must have the answers prepared and delegate other Ministers who would be available to come to this House and give the responses. That is my point of order Madam Speaker.
THE TEMPORARY SPEAKER: Your point of order Hon.
Gonese has been noted. We take great task to make sure that we inform our Ministers to also take Parliament business seriously so that they can respond to these Questions With Notice. We will communicate to the Ministry of Health as it has been communicated.
ELECTRIFICATION OF JOMBE PRIMARY SCHOOL
- HON. SARUWAKA asked the Minister of Energy and Power Development to inform the House when electricity would be connected at Jombe Primary School in Ward 10 in the Mutasa Rural District Council, considering that the school had a transformer installed and electrified in July 2016 by Rural Electricity Agency (REA) while connection fees were paid for the teachers houses and the administration block in October 2016.
THE MINISTER OF ENERGY AND POWER
DEVELOPMENT (HON. DR. UNDENGE): Thank you Madam Speaker. Let me thank the Hon. Member for his question. Madam
Speaker, Jombe Primary was disconnected for non-payment of bills. They then paid for meter separation in October 2016, required athena single phase and 13 phase meters. Shortage of meters has delayed installation of the meters at the school. Single phase meters are coming in batches and will be installed in due course. However, these meters are still not available although they are still coming into the country.
The rate is not as anticipated owing to foreign currency challenges. Priority will be given to the school once the meters are in stock. I thank you Madam Speaker.
HON. SARUWAKA: On a supplementary comment Madam
Speaker. On his last statement that they are going to prioritise the school, I want to take note of that position and thank the Minister for making that position clear so that as soon as the meters are available, Jombe Primary is back on line. I want to thank you for the last statement you made that you have considered it as your priority.
HON. DR. UNDENGE: He was noting a point and I have taken note of that point Madam Speaker.
HON. MAJOME: Thank you Madam Speaker. I am also encouraged by the Hon. Minister’s commitment to Hon. Saruwaka that his Ministry’s position is to prioritise the electrical supply of schools. On that note, I will also ask the Hon. Minister if he has any plans to expedite the restoration of electricity supply to schools that have electricity but whose transformers are down. I say this because in my constituency, there is Ellis Robins School that went for about five weeks without power but thankfully, it has been restored. There is Hallingbury School, Mabelreign Girls High School that have transformers that were vandalised and there is a lot of suffering. In light of the fact that, you are sensitive to the need to have schools have electricity continuously running, can you do something exceptional to ensure that if schools are hit, in line with your commitment, they are placed back on line quickly.
I thank you.
HON. DR. UNDENGE: Madam Speaker, most of the
transformers are lost due to vandalism. I think in the past I have appealed to Hon. Members here to talk with the respective communities so that they protect and guard against destruction of such vital infrastructure of transformers. We have had cases whereby we replace transformers and soon after that they are again vandalised. I think we should become our own policemen to ensure that we watch what is happening and protect that infrastructure through public education and campaigns.
However, with specific response to the question, we will ensure that transformers become available with priority to schools because we need our school children to learn conveniently including households as well. I know how it is when families used to cook with electricity. For them to resort to other forms of energy for cooking, it becomes cumbersome. So, we want to ensure that there is access to electricity.
For all members of the community. I thank you.
TRANSFORMER AT FATIMA PRIMARY SCHOOL
- HON. SARUWAKA asked the Minister of Energy and
Power Development to explain to the House when the transformer at Fatima Primary School in Ward 12 of Mutasa Rural District Council, which broke down in mid-2016 thereby negatively impacting on the activities of this institution is going to be repaired/replaced?
THE MINISTER OF ENERGY AND POWER
DEVELOPMENT (HON. DR. UNDENGE): Yes Madam Speaker,
the transformer supplying the school faulted on 24th February, 2016. This was a 50 kVA 11/0.4 kV replacement transformer. Shortages of transformers are negatively impacting on the restoration of supplies.
The school will be energised once a replacement transformer is in place. Again, we go back to that issue of shortage of transformers and we are making all possible efforts as a Ministry to ensure that we import those transformers. Those we can manufacture locally, we do so. If you look at Harare alone, it has about 5 000 transformers which are in place. Of course, some them are faulty and need replacement. I thank you.
HON. SARUWAKA: I want to understand from the Minister
whether they have a policy of response to a problem. I am asking this because according to his response, he alluded to the fact that it has been more than a year since that transformer was down. In fact, it was down last February and now we are in July, almost 16 months down the line.
Is there any policy position in relation to the Ministry’s point of view in terms of replacement? Is it going to take us another two years if they do not find a transformer? Is it until they find it or they can do something to ensure that a functional transformer is in place because we see them in other instances making frantic efforts to replace transformers for some institutions?
HON. DR. UNDENGE: As I indicated earlier on Madam Speaker,
we are making efforts to ensure that we speed up the processes. I said the Reserve Bank of Zimbabwe has given us an allocation whereby we can manufacture some of the transformers and import some. So, I do not think it will take a long time. I cannot say with mathematical precision that we will do this by this date. As I said, these have to be imported
and subject to the earlier availability then we will have those transformers installed. I must say we have electrified a number of schools in the Hon. Member’s constituency and he is not acknowledging that.
ZIMBABWE’S ARREARS TO ESKOM AND HYDRO CABORA
BASSA
- HON. MAJOME asked the Minister of Energy and Power
Development to inform the House what arrangements exactly have been made to ensure ESKOM and Hydro Cabora Bassa do not terminate supplies to Zimbabwe over arrears.
THE MINISTER OF ENERGY AND POWER
DEVELOPMENT (HON. DR. UNDENGE): Thank you Madam
Speaker. ZESA has made payment arrangements with ESKOM whereby on a weekly basis they are paid a certain amount. Also, there has been some Government guarantee to secure the payment and
ESKOM are quite happy with the arrangement. We will review the agreement periodically. In the same vein, ZESA met with Hydro Cabora Bassa (HCB) and agreed on a payment arrangement to clear the arrears.
HON. MAJOME: Would the Hon. Minister care to advise how much because he said that in terms of ESKOM, there is an undertaking which I really thank him for working so hard to make sure that they get paid but he just said it is a certain amount. Can the Hon. Minister care to indicate what amount they will be paying as well as for HCB?
HON. DR. UNDENGE: Madam Speaker, with ESKOM, the
arrangement is that $5 million is paid per week and with HCB, it is $500 000, which is paid weekly.
RESOLUTION ON THE ELECTRICAL POWER DEFICIT
- HON. MAJOME asked the Minister of Energy and Power Development to inform the House what plans if any, Government has to ensure the resolution of the electricity power deficit.
THE MINISTER OF ENERGY AND POWER
DEVELOPMENT (HON. DR. UNDENGE): Thank you Madam Speaker. As the Hon. Member may appreciate, a number of initiatives are being pursued in the short, medium and long term although the solution to the power deficit can only be attained in the long term. Some of these initiatives include:-
- Demand Side Management initiatives which are aimed at efficient utilisation of the available power;
- Licencing of Independent Power Producers which are contributing to the power supply;
- Re-powering of the existing Small Thermal Power Stations to increase capacity;
- Expansion Projects such as Kariba Power Station by 300 Mega
Watts, Hwange Station by 600 Mega Watts; and
- Various Power Purchase Agreements with Imports Agreement entered into.
TRANSFORMER FOR SUSWE BUSINESS CENTRE
- HON. MUDYIWA asked the Minister of Energy and Power
Development to inform the House when the Special single Wire Earth
Return (SWER) transformer for Suswe Business Centre in Mudzi District will be repaired considering that it has been malfunctioning since 2015.
THE MINISTER OF ENERGY AND POWER
DEVELOPMENT (HON. DR. UNDENGE): I thank the Hon.
Member for his question. Madam Speaker, the Single Wire Earth
Return (SWER), is a new technology that was carried out as a Pilot Project in Mudzi, Mutoko. The transformer and switch faulted due to a fault on the SWER line. Currently, a transformer has been secured and what is outstanding is the 18kV SWER switch which is not locally available. ZETDC is currently in the process of procuring the requisite spares and it may take up to October/November, 2017 for the equipment to be delivered. I thank you Madam Speaker.
HON. MUDYIWA: Thank you Madam Speaker. Hon. Minister, I am worried since the transformer has been down for over 3 years now and you saying the switch is not available. What other plans are there to ensure that electricity is brought back to these people because they had electricity before but now they have gone for three years without that electricity. Thank you.
HON. DR. UNDENGE: Madam Speaker, I have said that this switch, ZETDC is in the process of importing it, and they are looking to have it at around October and October from now, we have three months in between because you place an order and the item is manufactured and it will then be shipped to Zimbabwe. It is not manufactured locally, so I
think three months to deliver is reasonable time.
She is talking about the past; I am talking about the present whereby an order has been placed by ZETDC. So, let us look to the future. The past is gone. You know we cannot reverse time. I thank you.
THE ACTING SPEAKER: Hon. Member, I think the Minister is clear. They are doing something, I think, in the next three months.
HON. MUDYIWA: Is this single wire earth return system suitable for the rural users because I am told the most suitable system is the three wire system. The single wire can be overloaded because they connect the grinding mills, welding machines and everything and it then becomes overloaded, which was the cause of the transformer breaking down. Thank you.
HON. DR. UNDENGE: Madam Speaker, this is new technology which is used in other countries and we have introduced it in Zimbabwe and it is working well in other areas, but where there is an overload, I think the technicians can rectify that. I thank you.
ELECTRIFICATION OF DENDA PRIMARY SCHOOL
- HON. MUDYIWA asked the Minister of Energy and Power
Development to inform the House when electricity will be connected to Denda Primary School, in Ward 8, Shinga Secondary School and Clinic in Ward 4 in the Mudzi West Constituency, in view of the fact that the connection fees were paid in 2015.
THE MINISTER OF ENERGY AND POWER
DEVELOPMENT (HON. DR. UNDENGE): Madam Speaker, the two
schools, Denda Primary, Shinga Secondary School and Clinic in Ward 4 were affected by theft of the 33Kv lines. A total 26km of 33Kv line was vandalised and the process of resuscitating the line is currently on-going.
The works should be completed by end of July, 2017.
Before I sit down, Madam Speaker, let me reiterate that people living in your communities, your local people, would have vandalised or stolen the cables. You come to Harare to ask the Minister to replace those cables which would have been stolen by the people you live with. That is why I say first and foremost, you must ensure that the infrastructure which is there is preserved. That is your first task as an Hon. Member, not to say when your people out there have committed a crime you come here, you descend heavily on the Minister for something which he has not caused and he is trying to prevent from happening.
However, we will do what we can to replace, but first thing, let us preserve the infrastructure which we have. As MPs, you will help us a lot and you will help Government if you ensure that those cables are not stolen and also the transformers are not stolen. We would have less problems and there would be continuity of supply of power. I thank you Madam Speaker.
REFUNDS BY PENSION FUNDS
- HON. N. MGUNI asked the Minister of Finance and Economic Development to explain to the House why Pension Funds that own buildings and other properties which they rent out in United States dollars do not refund the money that was wiped out by inflation.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE AND ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT (HON. CHINAMASA): Madam Speaker, the short
answer to the question raised by the Hon. Member is that a Commission of enquiry was set up by His Excellency the President to enquire into alleged loss of values when the conversion from Zimbabwe dollars took place to United States dollars. As I indicated in my earlier reply to a question without notice, the Commission has since completed its task and is waiting to present its report to His Excellency the President.
It is only then that we will know what the recommendations of the Commission are and which of the recommendations can be accepted by
Government to be implemented. Before that, I have no answer to the Hon. Member’s question. I thank you Madam Speaker.
MEASURES TO SAFEGUARD PEOPLE FROM RADIATION
- HON. MAJOME asked the Minister of Information Communication Technology, Postal and Courier Services what steps the government is taking in ensuring that communities near base stations are not affected by radiation coming from them as required by Section 73 of the Constitution which guarantees that every person has the right to an environment that is not harmful to their health.
THE MINISTER OF INFORMATION COMMUNICATION
TECHNOLOGY, POSTAL AND COURIER SERVICES (HON.
MANDIWANZIRA): Thank you Madam Speaker. Let me thank the
Hon. Member for the question. Firstly, let me say that in 2016
Government in conjunction with the Postal and Telecommunications
Regulatory Authority (POTRAZ) and the World Health Organisation (WHO), organised a workshop to educate local operators, Ministry officials, the public and other stakeholders on the health effects of radiation from base stations which is commonly called Electro Magnetic Field Radiation or EMF.
Secondly, using the outcomes of the EMF workshop, the Government, through POTRAZ, has drafted regulations that provide for the protection of citizens from harmful exposure to emissions from Base stations. They provide for the estimation of exposure before a Base station is built as well as measurement and monitoring of
Electromagnetic Field (EMF) radiation near base stations after they have been built. The regulations are based on the latest guidelines from the WHO, the International Commission on Non-Ionizing Radiation Protection (ICNIRP) and the International Telecommunications Union (ITU).
Thirdly, POTRAZ is also procuring additional EMF measurement equipment which will be used for enforcement of the EMF framework.
The Invitation to Tender (ITT) has been completed. POTRAZ currently has only one measurement tool, but that tool does not distinguish between emissions from different operators, whereas the equipment that is now being put to tender for purchase will be able to distinguish which Base station or which network is emitting particular radiation. I thank you Madam Speaker.
HON. MAJOME: I thank the Hon. Minister for paying attention to this hazard, but I would like to know if he can indicate what time frame it is that the Hon. Minister hopes that POTRAZ might be able to acquire this equipment that will be able to be more useful for the sake of health. Thank you.
THE MINISTER OF INFORMATION COMMUNICATION
TECHNOLOGY (HON. MANDIWANZIRA): Thank you Madam
Speaker and thank you Hon. Majome for the follow up question.
The fact that the tender documents are already complete means that they are ready now to go for tender. I would imagine that this process should take no more than the second part of 2017. I would like to say that by the end of the year, this should be in place. But because the Hon.
Member has this interest, not only her but a lot more other people have interest to make sure that our communities are protected from this radiation, I am going to make sure that the Regulatory Authority fast tracks its processes to make sure that we procure this equipment.
IMPACT OF RADIATION FROM BASE STATIONS
- HON. MAJOME asked the Minister of Information Communication Technology to inform the House if the Ministry conducted a study to assess the impact of the radiation emitted from Base stations on relevant local communities. If such a study was done, what are the results and recommendations.
THE MINISTER OF INFORMATION COMMUNICATION
TECHNOLOGY (HON. MANDIWANZIRA): Thank you once again
Hon. Member for the continued interest in the work of the ICT Ministry, particularly when it relates to issues of radiation and how they are impacting on our communities.
To answer her question, I just want to say that studies that have been carried out in other countries by World Health Organisation (WHO), the International Commission on Non-Ionizing Radiation Protection (ICNIRP) and the International Telecommunications Union (ITU) have not shown any adverse effects so far.
The measurements that POTRAZ has already carried out in the vicinity of a number of telecommunication installations have indicated that the EMF levels are well below the maximum WHO limits. POTRAZ will carry-out more measurements when the new equipment is purchased. As long as that is below the limits that have been set by WHO, I think we will be fine.
HON. MAJOME: Is the Hon. Minister able to direct those inquiries towards communities that have people who have hearing aids.
I am particularly interested because one of my Constituency institutions, Emerald School for the Deaf has children who wear hearing aids. Will the Minister be able to expand that testing to communities that have specialised equipment as well?
HON. MANDIWANZIRA: I am not sure of the connection
between radiation and the deaf but let me just say that there is a facility available within the Universal Services Fund that assists disabled communities to access equipment that helps them to access telecommunications infrastructure.
If there is a barrier to the community that she takes care of to any telecommunication services, they can actually apply for funding from the Universal Services Fund in order to provide infrastructure or any services related to their needs. There is a fund specifically for that but I have failed to connect radiation and the deaf. If there is that connection, it can still be dealt with under that specific fund.
PAYMENT OF RADIATION TAX FEE
- HON. MAJOME asked the Minister of Information Technology if mobile operators who have Base stations are charged a radiation tax fee. If there is such a tax, what is the money used for.
THE MINISTER OF INFORMATION COMMUNICATION
TECHNOLOGY (HON. MANDIWANZIRA): Once again, I would like to thank the Hon. Member for the question. The operators are not charged any radiation tax. Operators have an obligation to ensure that all their telecommunication installations comply with the International Commission on Non-Ionizing Radiation Protection (ICNIRP) limits. As can be read from the draft EMF Regulations, the intention is to ensure public safety, rather than using EMF radiation for raising funds. It would be immoral to allow public exposure to radiation for the purposes of raising funds. Of course, the punishment for any equipment that goes beyond the limits which we do not have at the moment would be simply to switch off that equipment and not to fine them and continue to affect the health of our communities.
WRITTEN SUBMISSION
ELECTRIFICATION OF MAVHUDZI AND NYAMWEDA
PRIMARY SCHOOLS
- HON. GANGARAHWE asked the Minister of Energy and
Power Development to inform this House on the progress in the electrification of Mavhudzi and Nyamweda Primary Schools as per assurance made by the Minister that the exercise would have been done by end of March, 2017.
THE MINISTER OF ENERGY AND POWER
DEVELOPMENT (HON. DR. UNDENGE): I thank the Hon. Member
for his question. Mr. Speaker Sir, Mavhudzi and Nyamweda Primary Schools were electrified by REF on 18th July, 2012 and 22nd July, 2015 respectively. All paid up new points of supply at both primary schools have since been connected. There are no outstanding connections to date at these schools.
Questions with Notice were interrupted by THE TEMPORARY SPEAKER in terms of Standing Order No. 64,
MOTION
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE AND ECONOMIC
DEVELOPMENT (HON. CHINAMASA): Madam Speaker, I seek leave of the House to move that Order of the Day, Number 51 take precedence over all Orders of the Day.
Motion put and agreed to.
MOTION
RATIFICATION OF THE LOAN AGREEMENT BETWEEN THE
GOVERNMENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF ZIMBABWE AND THE
KUWAIT FUND FOR ARAB ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE AND ECONOMIC
DEVELOPMENT (HON. CHINAMASA): Madam Speaker, in
moving the motion, I would want to remind Hon. Members that the
Government of the Republic of Zimbabwe and Kuwait Fund for Arab Economic Development signed a Loan Agreement for Kuwaiti Dinars 6 million (Approximately US$20 million) to co-finance Zhove Irrigation
Project and the signature was on the 24th March 2017.
The loan facility has a tenor of twenty five years, inclusive of a five year grace period and will attract an interest rate of 1.5% per annum, inclusive of 0.5% administration charges.
Purpose of the Facility
This loan will support the production of citrus fruits in particular, as well as other cash and food crops (maize, sugar beans, tomatoes, groundnuts), the construction of a conveyance system to supply adequate and sustainable water from Zhove Dam to irrigate about 2 500 hectares of agricultural land.
Project beneficiaries
The project is expected to benefit more than 5 000 households from the following communities and resettlements areas along the
Mzingwane River in Beitbridge District which will include; Ferguson
Ranch, Bishopstone Ranch, Cawood Ranche, Mtetengwe Communal Lands, Mabidi Communal Lands and Malala Communal Lands.
Project Benefits
The implementation of the project should lead to enhanced socioeconomic development to the communities and resettled farmers in the project area and country at large in the following ways:
- Improve food security in the southern parts of the country;
- Create employment and income generating opportunities for farmers, youth and women;
- Support the juice processing industries in Beitbridge and will also
- Generate foreign currency through exports of citrus products and vegetables.
Project Financing and Repayment
The total cost of the project is US$35.7 million of which Government will contribute US$7 million and $20 million has been provided by the Kuwait fund. Government has since approached the Abu Dhabi for international development to provide the remaining balance of $8.7 million. The negotiations are at an advanced stage and we expect to reach the financial closure before the year end.
Madam Speaker, with respect to project implementation, the Ministry of Agriculture, Mechanisation and Irrigation Development will be the executing agent responsible for implementation of the project. In order to ensure the smooth implementation of the project, a project management unit will be established under the Ministry to oversee the day to day operations of the project. The project is earmarked to commence before year end, 2017 and will be implemented over a period of five years. I therefore, Madam Speaker, commend the Kuwait Fund Loan Agreement for the Zhove Irrigation Project in the sum of Kuwait Dina - KWD 6million, which is approximately US$20 million for the approval of this august House. I thank you for your kind attention.
Let me also say Madam Speaker, that the key features of the facility is that we are the borrower through the Ministry of Finance and
Economic Development. The lender is Kuwait Fund for Arab Economic
Development and the executing agency is the Ministry of Agriculture, Mechanisation and Irrigation Development. The loan amount as I have stated is Kuwait Dina - KWD 6 million which is approximately US$20 million. The interests rates are one and half percent per annum on the principal amount of the loan and this will be inclusive of 0.5% administration charges. It has a maturity of 25 years inclusive of a five year grace period. The principal repayments will be 40 semi-annual equal installments. I thank you Madam Speaker.
HON. MAJOME: On a point of order or point of privilege depending on what it is Madam Speaker. I have raised this issue before that in terms of our very own Standing Orders that we made, particularly Standing Order No. 20 paragraphs (d) and particularly (e), it requires that subject to these Standing Orders, Portfolio Committees must and in paragraph (e), consider or deal with all international treaties, conventions and agreements relevant to it, which are from time to time, negotiated, entered into or agreed upon.
I am not aware or maybe it has happened that the relevant Portfolio Committee and in this case, that on Budget and Finance has actually considered and dealt with this proposed treaty which clearly sounds that it will be something that will benefit our country. But, our Standing Rules and Orders require that Portfolio Committees must do so. I am concerned that repeatedly we get treaties that are tabled for the House to approve but without any evidence of a relevant Portfolio Committee having addressed this mind. I am saying this because I am concerned that we will continue being a rubber stamp if we just approve treaties. I am sure the reason why we have it in the Standing Orders is because the relevant Portfolio Committees are the ones that are actually capable of sitting down as they are more knowledgeable than the rest of us. These are our very own Standing Rules and Orders and we do not seem to be using them.
I want to propose that maybe if we do not think that this provision is necessary, then maybe we should just amend the Standing Rules and Orders and remove this if we are not going to scrutinise it like we said we would. So, I would like to find out, maybe I am unaware - was this referred to the relevant Portfolio Committee and did they consider or dealt with it as they must in terms of Standing Order No. 20, paragraph maybe (d) but especially paragraph (e).
THE TEMPORARY SPEAKER: Hon. Majome, your point of
privilege is difficult to respond to since the Chairperson of the Budget Committee is not in the House but still, they will be able to respond even if the Minister has moved the motion.
HON. DR. MASHAKADA: Thank you Madam Speaker. Firstly,
I would want to thank the Minister of Finance and Economic
Development for tabling this term sheet of the loan agreement between Kuwait Fund and the Republic of Zimbabwe.
In fact, it is true that if this Parliament withholds its consent, this loan will not be disbursed. So, I urge this august House to give the Minister the necessary consent but, I have some hygienic issues which I would want the Minister to respond to before the consent is granted by Parliament. The first hygienic issue Hon. Minister is that you seem to have conflated the Kuwait Fund with the Abu Dhabi Fund. I do not know whether that is conventional practice to conflate the two agreements as you have done in this case. We were under the impression that we were dealing with the Kuwait Fund exclusively for $35 million but I see that the Abu Dhabi Fund has been smuggled also into the Kuwait Fund. Yes, I can refer you to paragraph 4 on page one. This is a hygienic issue because you introduced the Abu Dhabi Fund into a loan agreement involving the Kuwait Fund. I think that it is a serious hygienic issue. - [HON. NDEBELE: Inaudible interjection.] –
THE TEMPORARY SPEAKER: Hon. Ndebele, let Hon.
Mashakada speak for himself – he is able.
HON. DR. MASHAKADA: You will respond but my point is that the Kuwait Fund should stand on its own and the Abu Dhabi Fund should stand on its own as a matter of record because other members are of the opinion that we are just dealing with the Kuwait Fund alone, yet there is also the Abu Dhabi Fund of US$8.7m. I think being a lawyer you understand what I am saying. The second thing is that this loan agreement, the Kuwait/Zimbabwe loan requires that the project contractor be approved by the Kuwait/Arab fund. Can the Minister advise this House how far the identification or the selection of the project contractor has gone?
Also linked to the terms of this Agreement, is the question of the Zimbabwe Government being required to come up with an implementation plan by March 2017. This Agreement requires the Government of Zimbabwe who is the borrower, to have come up with an implementation plan of the project by March 2017. Are we on course or we are running late as far as this requirement is concerned? On a related issue Minister, I think what you have done is very proper and I was just wondering whether you can also bring to this House the term sheet regarding the funding of Command agriculture since we are also borrowing. I know it is a bit outside of this but talking about these loans, borrowing and debt contracting, it would be prudent if you could bring the term sheet for the Command agriculture since we are actually borrowing. It is a public debt which will bind Zimbabwe and the posterity. I thank you very much.
*HON. MUKWENA: I rise to support the motion raised by Hon. Chinamasa in connection with the loan from the Arab State. It is a good motion that has been brought by the Minister who has explained the nature of the loan and the project for which the money is going to be used for. I believe that Matabeleland South was identified as the beneficiary, it is a befitting area to benefit from this loan, and it is a lowveld area just like Chiredzi or Chivi where the Tokwe-Mukosi dam was constructed. Minister we applaud you for this successful hunting. What I urge you Hon. Minister, as you have explained how the loan is going to be utilised; it is the use of that money where my plea is directed to. Should the money be used in the manner that you have described and timeously there will not be problems like the ones that emanated from Tokwe-Mukosi which was started in 1998 and was only completed this
year.
We hope and trust that this money will be enough to cover the entire project and its construction. We plead with you Minister that the funding should be adequate for this particular project. On the other hand, we request that your Portfolio Committee should put its eyes there; there are two Committee that are tasked with oversight, Finance and Agriculture Committee. If they keep an eagle’s eye on what is happening, they will be able to ensure that this money is properly used. Beitbridge requires irrigation and the people in that area are headsmen and are into cattle ranching. You did your research well and despite the capacity of the dam being small and funding being little, we are proud that the little that we have done is important because a journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step. Hon. Minister, in brief I want to thank you and support your motion.
+HON. NDEBELE: Thank you Madam Speaker. I am also from
Matabeleland South and I would like to thank the Hon. Minister for working on this situation and getting loans for the people of Beitbridge to survive. We know that Beitbridge is a very dry place; there is need for water in this area. Our people from this specific area are surviving from working in South Africa. I do hope that this dam that we are speaking about will assist them and will make them realise that our Government at times has love for its people and it does remember that they are children of this nation.
I would like to emphasise on what was said by the previous speaker who spoke before me that the Minister needs to ensure that this loan is a loan that is going to be borne by Zimbabweans at large, therefore the Minister has to make sure that there is monitoring and valuation in order to ensure that this money that was borrowed works towards this job that we are speaking about. We know that our Government so often, when these loans are given, especially towards elections, the money is diverted such that it is used for different purposes as compared to the ones that it is intended for. As we are facing elections in 2018, this money could be used for a few months and when we have elected a new Government the machinery that could have been bought will disappear in Zhove. We have seen this in Gwaai and I bet to see it again. The Gwaai dam as we are approaching 2018 soon, you will see the machinery going there with stones and cement pretending as if something is being done. What I am saying is I want to advocate that this money be used for the specific purpose. We do not want to read in the press that people are fighting over this money that was borrowed using particular people’s names that should benefit from the irrigation scheme in Zhove.
I also want to take note of what was said by Dr. Mashakada who said that this loan was brought to this House, yes, we saw it and we would like to thank you for it. We are truly grateful; however, we want to find out why the Government would not want to do the same with the loan of Command agriculture. Yes, we have read in the press that the money for Command agriculture will be distributed privately and not in public. We would want the Minister to come to us and clarify how we got the money for Command agriculture, because it is a scheme that we really admire and we need that clarity concerning the loan. This loan will be upon the shoulders of all Zimbabweans and we will have to pay for it and even our great grandchildren will pay it. I thank you.
HON. MUZENDA: Thank you Madam Speaker. I would like to
congratulate the Minister on this agreement. The terms seem to be very positive for our country and the Zhove community. The interest rate seems very good and also the administration charges. The tenure is quite attractive. What I wanted to find out from the Minister is, there are some loans which have been granted and which we concluded but eventually they never come to a conclusion, for example the BADEA loan. Here we see that $28 million is from Arabs and $7 million from Government. Is our Government ready to fund its portion of $7 million? Thank you Madam Speaker.
*HON. SARUWAKA: What I just want to add on this motion
Minister with regard to the loan is that, I may have misquoted him when he was giving his explanation – is the loan for the construction of a dam or it is for irrigation equipment? I am asking this question because last week we went around the country looking at the dams in this country. We often used to hear about Kunzvi Dam and were hoping that there was a dam. When we went there we only saw a dam site. Is the Zhove Dam there? What is required are the pipes and pumps and what is its capacity?
Lastly, maybe what I would want to plead with the Minister when they start the construction of this dam, he should indicate that it has the blessing of both sides of the House because it is Government and not a party project. I thank you and wholly support this because it is good for our development. When you commence, remember that we have done this together and it is a Government project.
+HON. MUDAU: Firstly, I would like to thank the Minister of
Finance for what he has done for us. In Beitbridge, we really suffer a lot. We suffer from poverty and starvation. We do not get proper food. What has been done by the Minister of Finance is really admirable and we are much grateful because there are people who used to farm. We are glad that there is money that will be there to develop that Zhove Dam. However Minister, we do advocate that if this has to be done, can it be done as quickly as possible? We do not have food in that area because there is no water. If this development is worked on quickly, people in Beitbridge will be happy about it as they are suffering.
Right now, people were surviving by crossing the border to South Africa. Not all of them have proper documents and some of them cross the border illegally and are murdered along the way. Therefore, I am very much sure that if the Minister has looked at our plight and emphathised with us and is to do what I am requesting, we will be grateful. People really want to work on various projects but because there is no water we do not succeed. The region is very hot and fruits like oranges would really do well. I heard the Minister refer to it.
We have many small scale farmers who do some farming but they do not prosper because of lack of adequate water. I am of the view that if this dam is to be a success and command agriculture is done; I do believe that we will be able to get food from the usage of that dam. I want to thank you Hon. Minister for the wait is over in Beitbridge. Thank you so much. We are grateful. We are starving right now because we lost a lot of our cattle and livestock to drought last year which we survive on. However, we tried to plant some crops with the previous rains but we did not prosper. Thank you so much Hon. Minister. May God bless you!
HON. DR. MUKANDURI: Madam Speaker, first of all I want to thank the Minister of Finance for the effort, together with the entire Cabinet for they were able to get this line of credit. It is very difficult for our country because we have very few friends but we want to congratulate the Minister. The story that has been narrated by the Hon. Member from Beitbridge, Hon. Mudau is a pathetic one. We do not want to punish our people. We should try by all means to support the efforts and endeavours that are being done by the Minister of Finance. We should wholeheartedly support this loan agreement.
Hon. Speaker, when we are dealing with loan agreements, we should not try to mix things. I do not know how we are linking the command agriculture to this loan agreement. It is expected that there could be some people who were not happy perhaps with the results of the command agriculture. It is expected for various reasons but we should not link. These things should be de-linked. We have question time for the Minister and at that point, we can then raise questions to say can we get an explanation of how the command agriculture was arrived at or how it was funded. We do not want to punish the people of Beitbridge. We should support the effort that is being done by the Minister of Finance.
I thank you Hon. Ndebele, he comes from Matebeleland South. Of course, he was saying these agreements should not be linked to elections and we abandon them - no. I am together with Hon. Ndebele; if we start a project, let us continue with that project so that it benefits the people of that region. I thank you Madam Speaker and support the loan agreement.
HON. MAONDERA: I would like to applaud the Minister for
such a facility given the interest rate of one percent. I just want to understand Madam Speaker, what is our international relationship with Kuwait? Do we have a cordial relationship with Kuwait or it came about after this saga of human trafficking where most of our women were exported as sex slaves? Do you have any sort of economic-cooperation agreement or joint commission Minister, with Kuwait or it is just something that is coming because we have never heard much about
Kuwait being talked about? This is only coming about because of this
Zhove Dam loan. Is it not that because there were some issues with us concerning our women now that they are giving us this loan? Can the Minister clarify that?
The other thing Minister, we have so many dam infrastructures countrywide. It is nice to get a loan but is this not going to be another white elephant where we have a dam and it is not being utilised. There are so many dams and there was a recent report by the Committee on Lands and Agriculture on our irrigation schemes; so many dams have been lying idle, not being fully utilised. Is this dam not going to be one of the white elephants? We just borrow money, we pay back but we do not get any value out of it. Have they put a mechanism in place with their Cabinet with the colleagues in agriculture to make sure that once the dam is completed, we derive economic value out of that dam?
Lastly, Hon. Minister, I know there could be some clauses that you safeguard against diverting those funds to something else. Can you assure this House that because of other pressing needs that we have, I know there are so many demanding competing needs, are you not going to play some games to try and circumvent some of the clauses, divert the money and use it somewhere else and repay later. Can you please clarify? I thank you.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE AND ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT (HON. CHINAMASA: Madam Speaker, I want to
thank Hon. Members who have contributed, all of them in support of the loan agreement but obviously asking for clarifications. This is what I am going to proceed to do. Hon. Mashakada, there is no conflating between the Abu Dhabi and Kuwait fund. If you read the paragraph that you referred to – Let me read it for you and this is in the Preamble.
“Where is the borrower, and the borrower is the Government of Zimbabwe - intends to obtain from Abu Dhabi Development Fund, the basis upon a loan in an approximate amount equivalent to US$8 700 000
(US$8.7 million))”. It is not saying we have borrowed. It is not saying we already have a loan. What happened in our negotiations with Kuwait, most of the loans we obtain from Arab funds, they agree to cofinance.
First, they require that as a borrower, we must also put our money on the table that is the seven million dollars that I referred to in my speech. In this case, Kuwait Fund is only prepared to lend $20 million and the advisors are Kuwait Fund who advised us to go and borrow the other $8.7 from Abu Dhabi. It will be on the recommendation of Kuwait Fund.
HON. DR. MASHAKADA: Was that done yet?
HON. CHINAMASA: We have already done that. We have borrowed. What happens is that the Abu Dhabi will lend us the US$8.7 based on the opinion of the Kuwait Fund. They will no longer go into detail to say give us this information or that information. They will rely and proceed based on the information that we have already submitted to the Kuwait Fund.
HON. DR. MASHAKADA: Will the agreement also come here?
HON. CHINAMASA: Yes, it will also come here.
THE TEMPORARY SPEAKER: Hon. Chinamasa, please speak
to the Chair.
HON. CHINAMASA: Thank you Madam Speaker. The second
question is for the project contractor to be approved by the Fund. Yes, it has to be approved by the Fund. That is a requirement for us to obtain the loan and we hope that we have no problem with the requirement because we also want a project contractor who can perform. If the project contractor is appointed to the satisfaction of the lender, we are also happy and have no problem with that. As to whether the implementation plan is already in place, I have no clear answer but clearly, there will be no problem. Generally, you can ask for extension if we think that we are behind but I do not have the answer on my fingertips as to whether or not the implementation plan is in place. The reference you made to command agriculture is not quite relevant but I did promise to do a ministerial statement on this subject matter. You may not have been in the House but I did promise that when the time is appropriate, I will do so.
Hon. Mukwena, thank you very much for supporting the loan agreement. I think you draw comparisons with Tokwe-Mukorsi. In this case, the dam has already been built. It has not been exactly hundred percent idle water but because I know there are some farmers there especially the commercial farmers and those that are into citrus production who are already drawing water from this dam. We are now seeking to benefit five thousand households from this project. We are now seeking from this water to open up 2 500 ha of citrus and the other crops that I mentioned. It will have a very positive impact to the socioeconomic development of the Beitbridge district. I am aware that it is welcomed and it is long overdue. They have been looking at that water for a long time without drawing any benefit from it.
Hon. Ndebele, thank you for supporting the Bill. I want to allay your fears that there is no way – I do not think you understand how lenders look after their money. Each draw-down is based on a certificate of certain stage of work having been completed. Otherwise, you do not go to second stage until you have a certificate, usually from an engineer to say this is what has been done and then you can draw-down. They do not give you the full trench of $20 million at once. It is always subject to drawdowns against specified stages in the construction of the irrigation scheme. Therefore, the dangers you are mentioning are not quite true. Again, it is a four-year project. It is not like we are going to open it just before the elections. However, we are free of course to do the ground breaking ceremony just before the elections – [AN HON. MEMBER: As a campaign bribe.] – That is the advantage of incumbency. We will certainly do a ground breaking ceremony.
I appreciate very clearly that it is not just from Matabeleland South but it is a problem that is affecting all Matabeleland provinces. Young people leaving school to go down South with very minimum education - some drop out to go to South Africa after Form 2, some after Grade 7,
Form 3 and it is a problem that needs to be addressed by the people from Matabeleland. It will mean that for all the time into the future, the province will remain marginalised because it will not have qualified people to compete with the rest of the country. Those who go to South Africa will observe that. These youths, who go to South Africa, when they drop out of school, they take low-level jobs. Those who have remained in education up to university, when they go to South Africa, they take high-level jobs.
That structure is not good and needs to be rectified and that can only be rectified by us. We need to identify why pupils, students from the Matabeleland provinces – I know there is the proximity but there is also sometimes, there is unnecessary publicity given to very few who make it and come back driving cars with very loud music. To youths, it is their model of a successful person. So, those are the issues that I think we have to tackle Madam Speaker as we go forward.
Hon. Muzenda, thank you very much for supporting the Bill and also you acknowledge that the tenure, 25 years is a long time, five years grace period is very generous and the interest rate is also very generous for this type of loan and project.
Hon. Saruwaka, thank you for supporting the Bill and I think I have already clarified that this money is to develop the irrigation component. The dam is already there; the water is almost 90% idle for years and this is something that we have to correct.
Hon. Mudau, thank you also for supporting the project and I think you have no choice to support me on this one, seeing that you come from Beitbridge District. This will make a difference to the economic situation in Beitbridge District – clearly, and I think the sooner we get started, the better. This is an area which produces, because of its climatic conditions, very nice citrus fruits which are export quality and they do not compare anywhere in the country.
The sad thing actually about the citrus fruits from Beitbridge is that they are exported to South Africa, who then package them as their oranges to export to the rest of the world. So, when they go to the rest of the world, they are not Zimbabwean oranges but South African oranges. We hope that these are some of the issues that we can correct also so that a product of Zimbabwe can reach the wider markets as a product of Zimbabwe, and we can earn the reputation that we grow and produce excellent oranges.
Hon. Dr. Mukanduri, thank you very much again for supporting the agreement and you observed quite correctly that there is no relationship between this loan and Command agriculture. For those who have raised the issue, I will in some time make a Ministerial Statement to speak about the Command agriculture.
Hon. Maondera, thank you for supporting this loan. You asked whether this will be another white elephant. No, we are actually transforming what is currently a white elephant, the dam. We are basically seeking to make it productive. That is exactly what we are doing; we are not building a new dam here. The dam is already there, it has been a white elephant and we are now seeking to transform it to make it productive. With those remarks Madam Speaker, I move that the loan agreement be approved.
THAT WHEREAS, Subsection (3) of Section 327 of the Constitution of Zimbabwe provides that an Agreement which is not an international treaty but which has been concluded or executed by the
President or under the President`s authority with one or more foreign organisations or entities and imposes fiscal obligations on Zimbabwe does not bind Zimbabwe until it has been approved by Parliament;
AND WHEREAS, a Loan Agreement between Government of the
Republic of Zimbabwe and the Kuwait Fund for Arab Economic
Development relating to Kuwait Dinars 6 million ( Approximately US$20 million) Line of Credit to support the Zhove Irrigation Project in Beitbridge District, Matabeleland South Province.
NOW THEREFORE, in terms of section 327(3) of the
Constitution, this House resolves that the aforesaid Agreement be and is hereby approved.
Motion put and agreed to.
TABLING OF THE ZIMBABWE LAND COMMISSION 2016
ANNUAL REPORT
THE MINISTER OF LANDS AND RURAL
RESETTLEMENT (HON. DR. MOMBESHORA): Thank you
Madam Speaker. In terms of Section 12(1) of the Audit Office Act, Chapter 22(18), I lay upon the Table the Zimbabwe Land Commission,
2016 Annual Report covering the period, 7th July to 31st December, 2016. Thank you.
On the motion of THE MINISTER OF FINANCE AND ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT (HON. CHINAMASA), the House
adjourned at Nineteen Minutes to Six o’clock p.m.
PARLIAMENT OF ZIMBABWE
Thursday, 20th July, 2017
The Senate met at Half-past Two o’clock p.m.
PRAYERS
(THE ACTING PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE in the Chair)
NEW MEMBER SWORN
HON. GEDION SHOKO took and subscribed to the Oath of
Loyalty as required by law and took his seat – [HON. SENATORS:
Hear, hear.]
ANNOUNCEMENTS BY THE ACTING PRESIDENT OF THE
SENATE
CHARITY GOLF TOURNAMENT
THE ACTING PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE (HON. SEN.
CHIEF CHARUMBIRA): I wish to inform the Senate that as part of its corporate social responsibility initiative, Parliament will host a charity golf tournament on Friday, 4th August, 2017 at the Zimbabwe Republic Police Golf Club. The registration fee is US$50 per player or US$200 for a foursome. For more information, you may contact Mr. N. Samu, on extensions 2186/2209 or Retired Major E. Mbewe on extension 2240.
PRESENTATION OF THE 2016 ANNUAL BUDGET REVIEW AND
2017 ECONOMIC OUTLOOK STATEMENT
THE ACTING PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE (HON. SEN.
CHIEF CHARUMBIRA): I have to inform the Senate that the Hon. Minister of Finance and Economic Development will at 1445 hours, today, present the 2016 Annual Budget Review and the 2017 Economic Outlook Statement in the National Assembly Chamber. The Presiding
Officers and the President of the Senate’s panel will proceed to the National Assembly Chamber and Senators will view the presentation from the television screens in the Senate Chamber.
Let me advise Hon. Senators that we are adjourning the House, those that would want to sit and watch from the screens are free to do so.
Some may want to leave, so we do not want to adjourn after the Statement, there may be only four people left here, it means there will be no quorum and we will have to come back tomorrow, that is the technicality. So, whilst we still have the quorum, we will adjourn and then we can sit and watch from the television screens. There is also space in the Speaker’s Gallery for those who may want to follow the presentation from there.
On the motion of THE MINISTER OF STATE FOR LIAISING ON PSYCHOMOTOR ACTIVITIVES IN EDUCATION (HON.
HUNGWE), the Senate adjourned at Twenty Minutes to Three o’clock
p.m. until Tuesday, 25th July, 2017.
PARLIAMENT OF ZIMBABWE
Thursday 27th July, 2017
The Senate met at Half-past Two o’clock p.m.
PRAYERS
(THE ACTING PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE in the Chair)
MOTION
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
HON. SEN. CHIEF CHARUMBIRA: I move that Question
Time and Order of the Day, Number 1 on today’s Order Paper be stood over until the rest of Orders of the Day have been disposed of.
HON. SEN. MLOTSHWA: I second.
Motion put and agreed to.
MOTION
FIRST REPORT OF THE THEMATIC COMMITTEE ON PEACE
AND SECURITY ON THE PREPAREDNESS OF THE GRAIN MARKETING BOARD ON HANDLING THE 2016/2017 CROP
DELIVERIES AND THE SUCCESS OF THE COMMAND
AGRICULTURE PROGRAMME
Second Order read: Adjourned debate on motion on the First
Report of the Thematic Committee on Peace and Security on the
Preparedness of the Grain Marketing Board on Handling the 2016/2017 Crop Deliveries and the Success of the Command Agriculture Programme.
Question again proposed.
*HON. SEN. CHIEF CHIDUKU: Thank you Mr. President for
giving me the opportunity to add my voice to the debate on the report that was tabled by Hon. Sen. Mumvuri seconded by Hon. Sen. Makone. When we went out on tours to witness the success of Command
Agriculture, it is a very important issue. It is an issue that caught our eyes. A lot was said by other Hon. Senators but what I witnessed was that if this project runs for two to three years; right now there are reports that the silos are full - where to store our grains is going to be a challenge because people are now into farming. The issue at hand is that there are a few challenges that we met because there are always challenges when such projects are implemented. Others were saying that wrong inputs were availed to them, especially in the form of seed but they ended up taking what was available. Others were expecting seeds that give high yield such as the Nzou or elephant seed and others needed the Zebra or Mbizi seed but could not get it and ended up taking whatever was available. We are requesting that in the next farming season, the Government should avail inputs in time and that people should be given the seed that they prefer. In other areas, we also realised that some could not get chemicals that destroy the weed and they ended up going into fields to cultivate in order to remove the weed. We need those chemicals.
There was also a challenge of late farming. They were those farming under irrigation and those farming in dry land. The
Government first availed seed to those under irrigation schemes because they have water throughout the year but for those who wait upon the rains, they were not given adequate inputs because the rain season is not predictable. I think that was supposed to be the other way round. Those who depend on rainfall should have been availed input earlier. Despite that, we witnessed that both those who depend on rainfall and those who depend on irrigation produced high yields.
The other challenge that we witnessed was that of the moisture content of the grain to be taken to GMB. It affected the ploughing of other crops such as wheat. We witnessed others who had their maize ready to be taken to GMB, the moisture content was condemned. They ended up keeping their maize. That was a challenge that we witnessed and the farmer must be assisted. The Government needs to seek for funding in order to acquire drying machines at GMB to ensure drying is done. They were saying if the maize is dried using the machines, the value of the maize will go down. A person should be given an opportunity to maybe have 40 hectares of maize and leave the other area to put wheat.
We went in six provinces; those with small farm lands and those with big all managed to get high yields. So this project was well received and was successful. What is important is that this programme is not imposed on anyone and that you are availed inputs which you should be able to pay back. It is like a loan facility. Where can you get a loan where you are given a loan to use and only pay back after you have profit? There is nowhere you can get such a loan. In all areas that we visited, people appreciated the high yields that we got especially for maize. We witnessed the silos around Lion’s Den. Most of us had condemned those and we thought they could no longer be useful. We looked down upon ourselves and thought we had no capacity to fill the silos, but currently all the silos are full. What is going to happen to the maize that is still in the field?
We went around and witnessed this, but we did not go to all areas. We only went to particular areas where we were satisfied and then we went to GMB to check their preparedness. They explained their preparedness to us and took us on tours to see the silos, of which we were able to see whether they were ready for grain. There is nothing that we did not see. We had the whole team from the province to the district; all those who were under Command Agriculture.
We also went to the farmers. There is one farmer who impressed me. At his age, I said to myself if this person grows up – he is a young man. He said that if you are going to my farm, you cannot walk. You might as well use the bus because my farming area is too big. We went on a tour of his farm on the bus because we could not walk the distance. If we are to engage in such farming for two to three years, no one will remain poor. If you find yourself poor after such a project, then there is something wrong with you. Why, because maize is not difficult to farm especially if you avail your inputs on time. It is different from tobacco.
Maize is easy to plough, but the pricing that it attracts of US$390 a metric tonne is a good pricing. We went around. We had those who were capturing and recording hence you saw the report that was tabled in this House that nothing was left behind. We went to other areas where maize was ready for the GMB, but they did not know what to do with it. There is also a lot of maize that is still in the fields.
We then asked ourselves why the Government had not embarked on such a project before. If you are worried about warthogs destroying your crops, it is because you would have farmed very little. Our request is that, we understand they want to now introduce Command Livestock. If that takes place or is implemented, no one will be left behind because our wealth is in our cattle, but we will also appreciate if this could be done in an equitable manner, looking at the various areas and the conducive areas for livestock rearing because we realised that if we take seed like Nzou and plant it in areas that are not conducive, you will not experience good yields. So, they need to look at the regions and also avail the correct seed to that area. If your region is not good for that area, then you need to take the smaller grains.
We also realised that the round nuts are also wanted and that popcorn as well is in demand. So, everything that is grown, any crop is in demand and it is not a challenge for us to engage in the farming of all those crops, but we should pay. The problem is, we do not want to pay. Most people cannot pay, but if we pay and then we are given other inputs, I think things will work out well. I realised that the white man used to have the Farmers Corp and clubs such as the golf clubs. They used to educate each other and conscientise each other on farming skills. They never used to discuss at home, but their training was done at the clubs and the golf clubs.
They were exchanging ideas and discussing how they would pay after farming. They were allowed to get things in bulk. When they were going to sell, from the GMB they would come back with a lorry full of inputs and at the same time, fertiliser and seed would actually be brought home. He would get his seed earlier even before being paid. So, I think if we follow such good practice, everything will work out well. I thank you.
*HON. SEN. MAWIRE: Thank you Mr. President. I want to thank you for affording me the opportunity to add my voice to the issue under debate. I am a member of the Committee which went on tours with the Peace and Security Committee. For sure, we went around. After coming to this House, there is talk and gossip that people are not farming and that command farming is a waste of money, but we were impressed when we went on tour and everyone witnessed what the project had achieved. We were all surprised to see the farming that took place. Even the preparedness of the GMB was amazing.
What I realise now is that we are going to have a challenge. We are hearing the media that the silos are already full. So, where will the remaining maize that is still in the fields and still to be taken to the GMB go? So, as a Government, I am requesting that we need to have extra silos for emergency to ensure that we have somewhere to put our grain.
The issue that is of challenge out there is the issue of the middle men. Those are the people who are now going to get the maize and they are going to sell it outside the country. That is a challenge for all of us because what we are saying that is the elderly as well as the young are the ones at risk. They experienced a lot of challenges trying to prepare their land for agriculture. We are saying these middle men are looting because they are buying a bucket for US$2 instead of US$6. They acquire a tonne at US$120 yet GMB is charging the same at US$390. That is a painful situation and I urge the Ministry of Agriculture,
Mechanisation and Irrigation Development to ensure that their extension officers go around to educate the people on the dangers of selling grain to anyone, especially those who then sell it outside the country and also conscientising them on the losses that they are making. Once people are aware and are knowledgeable on this, they will never sell their produce through the back door.
On Command Agriculture, people engaged in the project, but they did not have enough inputs. They had problems with tractors. Even the ones for hiring if available were few. We want to thank the nation because people continued to engage in farming. Loans should be availed for people to be able to buy tractors which can be paid in instalments. I am sure will do that. Once people are given such equipment, I foresee us having even higher yields. I think the issue I have discovered is that the white men never used to farm, we are the ones who were doing it. We are the ones who were labouring in those farms, but at the end we did not get anything.
On the issue of driers, it is an issue that was reiterated at the GMB.
I am sure you have realised how high our yields are, so the moisture content was a challenge for farmers with the GMB. So, if you took your maize to the GMB without the required moisture content, you had to go back with it. The GMB did not have driers to dry the maize. So, I want to agree with the previous speaker, Sen. Chief Chiduku that the GMB should invest in driers to ensure that the maize undergoes drying at the GMB. That will also deal with the issue of the middlemen.
There are others who are jealous and are causing veld fires in the fields of those who succeeded in Command Agriculture. Senator Goto’s field was burnt down as well as another farmer from Ngezi. Our fear right now is that since veld fires have started, this will increase because people are jealous. I think that this is an issue that the Government should look into and give stiffer penalties for those causing veld fires. I think this problem of veld fires will be dealt with once and for all.
Having more maize is an advantage because it will give us foreign currency which is now gold in this nation. It will also alleviate poverty in the sense that mealie-meal will be affordable to everyone. The yields that we have produced this year are quite high. We have youths who have engaged in farming and it is encouraging to note that our youths are also engaging in farming. We used to see this with the White men. Their children used to start farming at a very tender age. As a nation, we are also impressed when our children are following our footsteps and taking up farming seriously.
Mr. President, what we request is that this project continues to run for the next two or three years. The White farmers used to get loans for even five years and they would continue farming on the loan, getting inputs from the Government. That is what we are appealing to our
Government, that they should continue assisting local farmers. The Command Farming Programme is good, the maize crop is in abundance but there is no relish. We are now coming up with Command Livestock, which means the relish will now be available. We will now have sadza and relish. We also heard that there is Command Fish coming. We will accept it and we even have dams on our farms. Others are in the process of setting up dams. We still need more, like Command Round nuts,
Groundnuts, the list is endless. I thank you.
+HON. SEN. KHUMALO: Thank you Mr. President for giving
me this opportunity to contribute. I am not one of those who went out on a tour of the success of Command Agriculture. What makes me happy is that this particular Committee which is referred to as Peace and Security, I believe that they came up with a good idea to show that food is a matter of peace and security in our nation. This makes me so excited and I would like to thank them for this. Many Committees do not think along those lines. Food is part of every Committee that exists in Parliament. Food is part of every work and job that we have to carry out.
I am also excited because when agriculture is viewed as a priority, employment is created. We can employ various people in our fields and they will earn a living. However, what we need to take note of is that these days because of cash shortages people are facing challenges in accessing cash. Therefore, if workers do not get their money from the bank, they are demoralised. What we would want to see is a situation where people are able to access their money after working for it. Right now people spend a lot of time in queues, some even sleep at the banks. Instead of working, people now spend a lot time at the bank, which derails production. After spending all that time, at times they do not get the money.
When people plant maize – of course we spoke about wheat and soya beans, but maize brings a lot of other things like making cooking oil and stock feeds. We realise that the issue of value addition is being put into consideration. Some people may not have known this. This also creates employment.
What I only want to critique is that this maize seed which is provided is not healthy because it causes us to eat and grow big. People who love maize, you will recognise them with their weight because you have to take a lot of it in order to feel full. Our Government should also consider assisting people by providing and encouraging them to plant small grains like, rapoko, sorghum and millet because these particular plants, especially if you consider those people who are infected by
HIV/AIDS, if they eat much of these small grains, their health improves.
So, the Government needs to consider encouraging people to plant small grains for better health.
In addition, our Government does not assist people to do research, that is further assessing and evaluating on the issue of small grains because they put so much importance on the maize. There is need for research to find out the value of what we eat. People need to know more about the small grains. Since there are so many varieties of maize like short, long and medium term. We advocate that the Government also looks into the small grain variety.
I have spoken a lot about seed but so many of us do not have the farms to implement such a scheme. They rear cattle and other kinds of livestock. We pray that Command Agriculture also put into consideration those who rear all kinds of livestock. We know that there shall come a time when we will be told that there is not enough money for this project. We advocate that those who are into livestock production can be part of the Command Agriculture Scheme. Others would want to rear goats, sheep and not cattle only. May they be put into consideration so that they may be part of those who sell and gain profits like the others. So many people are excited about it because those who did the maize Command Agriculture have benefited a lot. Therefore, we hope that those who rear livestock will be in the same situation soon.
I would like to thank our Government for what they did. I hope that it will not end with maize, soya and wheat alone but that it will go on to include some of us who rear livestock because we want to benefit from this scheme. Even if we might not be able to get it from the banks, we also want to sleep on the queues trying to get money like others. I thank you.
+HON. SEN. MKWEBU: Thank you Mr. President for giving me this time to debate on the motion brought about by Hon. Sen. Mumvuri seconded by Hon. Sen. Mavhunga. Their Thematic Committee on Peace and Security looked into the issue of Command Agriculture in different areas.
I would like to applaud the Government who saw it fit that there should be various aspects that they needed to assist especially those who practice irrigation. When it comes to irrigation, especially some of us who are in region 5, we were so backward and we were always affected by hunger and poverty. It is not easy to be always waiting for or to be assisted. It is good to have your own things or to have food that you can buy from nearby places. Therefore, Command Agriculture has assisted us a lot as people of the Matabeleland region by assisting us with irrigation at ARDA and at other irrigation schemes that were put in place.
We had a good bumper harvest and therefore this Committee is of utmost importance because it looked into the issue of how people will manage to get food or how people will get food in different areas or how food is preserved in different GMBs. People are prepared to take their harvested grain to GMB and different GMBs are ready to accept the maize from different people.
What troubles us a little is that for GMB not to accept maize saying that it is not yet dry – in the regions where we come from, there are wild animals like elephants. When they get into your field, you cannot remove them. They will destroy all your crops as you wait for the people from Parks and Wildlife to come and assist you. I would therefore, like to encourage the Government to consider getting a lot of harvesters so that when we harvest, they can come and assist us. Some of us have lost our crops through veld fires. When gold panners try to detect gold, they just put up fires anywhere. Our fields are not protected and we are always afraid of losing our crops. I plead with the Government or the Minister of Agriculture to look into the issue of assisting us in getting a lot of harvesters per district so that we are able to harvest quickly before we lose our crops. People had tried their best but a lot have lost the crops through veld fires.
There is also the issue of tractors. People do not have tractors to do their farming. They try to use whatever they have at hand and harvest a little. We are urging the Government to get more tractors for us. We will pay with what we would have harvested from our fields.
Another problem is that even if you have a tractor, for example, I used to plant seeds after the tractor had tilled the land. However, it was not easy for me to farm the 50 hectares using that method. It was not easy. We hope that we get planters so that we are able to farm as much as we can. Even though we are not able to irrigate, I will farm the 50 hectare field and use the rainfall that we will get. Of course I might not be sure whether we have enough rains or not, but I will determine myself to do that.
We encourage that the inputs be distributed on time to meet the farming season. That causes trouble when we are about to harvest - because some animals like elephants will come and devour the crops before we harvest. If we get inputs when there is ample time, we are able to harvest in time.
It has been said before that some people were getting seeds that were not suited to their regions. People just accepted as they had been given but they were very clear that some of the seed was not proper for their regions. If we plant sorghum or millet, it would be better because these are good and healthy crops. Different hotels are now serving sorghum and millet. Therefore, it is important that we do not only focus on maize, but that there are different crops that are looked into.
When the seed came, we travelled long distances to get it. Some people had to come to the capital city - all the way from Gwanda or Plumtree to come and collect. It is not easy therefore to get the seed on time. We therefore plead with the Minister who is concerned to take note of this so that people get their seeds when the time is still there and people are able to farm properly. Mr. President, in different regions, we also have problems because of this farming issue. In region 5, we do not farm only but we also practice cattle rearing because if you have cattle and you have 50 hectares, you can use 20 hectares for maize and the other 20 hectares for grass. If you want to harvest the grass, you have to hire tractors from mechanisation and they take time to come and cut the grass and put it in place for you. At times you realise that mechanisation has a tractors and Agritex has a reaper and a bailer, for you to get in touch with all those people to reap the grass for you, it will take a lot of time.
Therefore, we do hope that people in various offices can work properly and do their jobs and not only come to sit. I do believe what was done by the Government when it comes to command farming is very important. This is a very important aspect for us as a nation but I plead with the Government that it looks into those who rear cattle as well so that they are able to provide us with the proper machinery to cut grass and bail it so that we are able to supplement food for our livestock. Therefore, we do hear that there shall be a launch of cattle rearing in different regions and that the Government is looking for funds for this. We plead with them that women be taken into consideration in agrifarming because most of the time they work so hard. They are ready to do cattle rearing or to farm; therefore, I do hope that they will be put into consideration because they are required to produce some sort of security which some women might not have. I do hope that we will be given cattle so that whatever produce we produce we can be able to pay. Hon. President of the Senate, I would like to thank you for giving me this opportunity.
*HON. SEN. TIMVEOS: Thank you Mr. President for affording
me this opportunity to debate on command agriculture. Firstly, I want to thank Hon. Sen. Mumvuri, the Chairperson for the Thematic Committee on Peace and Security. I am a member of the Committee. We went out and toured farming areas to assess the success of command agriculture. As a Committee, as we are on the tours, we investigate and come up with solutions as to how we can advise the Executive to ensure that the project proceeds successfully. I will say what the farmers said when we were out there. They said command was not a forced matter but as an individual you volunteered to be part of the Command Agriculture, so we went to various provinces. We first went to Gweru and realised the produce for command agriculture was not yet available. The seed was still in Mexico but they were prepared that that seed should come to
Zimbabwe.
I did not know that there were various processes that entailed the processing of maize. The process is quite a long process, so, we did not see anything in Midlands, then we went to Masvingo. The farming taking place in Masvingo is very good, farmers are farming. All the farmers came out in their numbers to accept the project. What they said is as Government, they wanted us to address the following issues; firstly seed differs according to regions and soil types. They were people who went round taking the different soil types. Now the seed should be availed according to the soil types but the Government did not do that. It acquired seed and gave the same seed throughout the country so the farmers were requesting the Government to look into the matter and ensure that different regions are availed seed that is suitable for their various soils in different regions.
Secondly, the farmers said that they requested the Government that when it avails the seed, it should also avail fertiliser at the same time because in most areas, they were given seed first and after about a month or two, fertiliser followed. So, the farmers were saying it is a challenge and it affects their farming, they want the inputs to come at the same time to ensure that they produce the high yields that they want and anticipate under the command agriculture scheme.
What I also witnessed as we went round is that in all provinces that we went to, the tractors, planters – there were quite a number of planters in Mashonaland West, especially in the area where a young man was talked about that he is a good farmer and there were 14 tractors. He works together with the others and assist them with planters as well. As a Committee member, I think the Government should also look into the fact that when inputs are being distributed, they should be equitably distributed in all provinces. If Mashonaland East has 14 provinces, if these tractors are distributed equitably, the other provinces will also benefit. So, in this regard, we request on behalf of the farmers that all provinces get inputs and mechanisation equipment.
Furthermore, the other issues were mentioned by my colleagues and then on the issue of coming up with command agriculture, it was not carefully planned. What I request is that the Government look into the issue of insurance. I am sure you heard that other Hon. Senators talk of how veld fires have destroyed their crops, especially Hon. Goto’s farm. If the crop had been assured, the Government would not have incurred a
loss.
I thank the Government for command agriculture but let us look at the challenges that we have faced and go back to the drawing board and see where we can improve in terms of the success of the Command Agriculture. Insurance is good in the sense that even the farmer who has lost out due to natural disasters can be able to pay back the loan and get something to ensure that the next farming season he can continue engaging in farming activities.
The farmers also talked about the issue of transport that yes, transport is available but it is not timely. Transport should be efficient. So, the Government should also look into that matter because the transport that is being used by GMB is the transport of other people who charge very high rates that cost our farmers.
On the issue of the weight of the maize; when the farmers come with their produce to GMB, they can be told that their maize is not ready and this affects them. They are then disappointed that they would have transported their maize. So, the Government and GMB should ensure that our farmers get tasters so that they are able to do the tasting at the farms to ensure that the moisture content is right and that their grain is dried rather than have them carry the maize to GMB only to be told it is still not as dry as they want it. That is when you find middlemen coming in. The middlemen go back to GMB and sell the maize, and the farmer will have experienced a loss. I want to put emphasis on that.
Then there was another one that we came across in Mashonaland
West. The silos at Lion’s Den are said to be number two in Africa but some employers raised the issue that the books were not in order. The books should be in order because there are some farmers who collected coupons from GMB and thereafter, they also went and got other coupons elsewhere. So, there was an issue of double-dipping. There was a lady who emphasised on the issue of transparency and having books in order to curb this issue of double dipping. This will also help to reduce corruption because Command Agriculture is a good project but to be honest; this is a success and makes us proud really. As a Government, we should put systems in place that protect the Government and the farmers as well.
In my opinion, if this project takes place next year and we manage to address the issues that I have mentioned here, I foresee this project taking Zimbabwe to another level. I want to thank the Chairperson and the Committee that went round. We went for quite a number of days and learnt a lot out there. I was promised a piece of land by the Chief because this encouraged me to venture into farming. What we are doing is commendable but we should do it properly and in a well mannered way for our families to prosper.
*HON. SEN MALULEKE: Thank you Mr. President for
affording me this opportunity. I want to add a few words concerning the first report that was presented by Hon. Mumvuri, seconded by Hon. Makone. They did a good job that which we read about in the Bible when Joseph was told that there will be so many years of hunger and so many years of good harvest. So, God has given us in Zimbabwe an opportunity to have more grain. Even the Chiefs’ granaries were no longer well-stocked. I think command agriculture was quite timely and also the Lord was on our side.
On the issue of command agriculture, surely the silos are now full of maize. What of us who are down there in Regions 5 and 6. We have a number of small grains. We did not get command assistance for the small grains but the grain that we have there is a lot. We ventured into farming and there is a lot of grain. Where are we going to put our small grains now that we have command agriculture which came through and was successful through God’s help and the Government? If you go there and see the maize that is there, you will think that a stone has been thrown and yet its maize. We have rich soils that are dark. We do not put fertilisers. We just farm and it is all organic. God loves us.
What we request is that with the situation that is there, we would also want to bring our small grains. How can you also peg the pricing at the same rate of $390 as maize and yet, small grains are difficult to farm. If you are to go into the field to check the farming that has taken place, you will be surprised because you can actually get lost. Our request is that God willing, those people who farm seed would also have seed for the small grains.
Small grains have become very important in hospitals because they are very healthy. We are going to continue farming more crops and request that our silos be increased. The silos should not only be in Norton or Banket but we want them to be real silos. Yes, I know GMB has but the other year we engaged in farming and when we took our grain there, it got rotten. So, what we request is that the silos must be well prepared to store our produce.
There are middlemen who are there. I went to Boli-Mhlanguleni and I saw at Triangle it is already there giving people sacks for free. They are taking per metric tonne $260 and they are losing $130, yet GMB takes at $390. My request is that Hon. Made should also give us sacks to ensure that we stock our grain in order to bring to GMB. We know that you say there are many silos but how can you say they are many yet the small grains have not yet come through. Mr. President, I also realise that the people of Zimbabwe are naturally farmers. We have always been good farmers and will remain good farmers. Our request is that for the future projects such as command livestock, we also need command goats for some of us who do not eat red meat. We also want command sheep and command quails.
Mr. President, people can also prepare food like rupiza for us because you do not find it in these hotels and it is something that we want. We want all small crops and other crops to go under command agriculture. Now that we have command agriculture – a tourist visitor came to Chiredzi and he was surprised to see the yields that we have. We took him to the GMB and he asked what that was. I told him it was that. After realizing this, he took photos and was surprised and shocked but all he could do was take photographs. He would ask about the small grains. He asked which types they were and how they would be prepared. He acknowledged the success of the command agriculture.
He commended Zimbabwe because our grain grows unlike in their area. I said to him whatever you are told there, they are all lies. You have seen it for yourself, there is command agriculture.
I took him to see command livestock and he was surprised to see what was taking place. I told him that it is because of our President Mugabe who has availed this project to us. He was very grateful and he took photos that he will take to America. Command agriculture is there to stay. Mr. President, I want to thank Hon. Sen. Mumvuri. They are not yet done, they should go to other areas down there. You should be funded so that you can go and see what is taking place. Hon. Sen. Mumvuri and his Committee must come to my area and witness what is happening. Thank you Mr. President for giving me an opportunity –
[HON. CHIPANGA: Achaenda out of order ipapa] –
HON. SEN. MLOTSHWA: Can I beg for your protection Mr.
President.
THE ACTING PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE: He is your
friend, you are protected.
HON. SEN. MLOTSHWA: I have an issue with Hon.
Chipanga. Thank you Mr. President. I want to thank the Committee of Peace and Security for the Report through their Chairperson, seconded by Hon. Theresa Makone who is a member of the Committee. We have been told of the tours that they did, I wish they had gone to all the provinces so that when we celebrate, we know we are celebrating something that is a success in the whole of Zimbabwe, not only onesided.
Mr. President, we applaud the special maize programme that was done last year under the command agriculture though some of us did not get the seeds. We usually buy like always because if we submit our names to those doing the distribution of the seeds, every time we are told that we cannot be part of the programme because we think differently.
Mr. President that is exactly what happens.
Mr. President, command agriculture in Matobo district under Matabeleland South, I only witnessed an irrigation where I am a member, Antelope Irrigation Scheme; they have got the seeds, the fertilizer came very late and by that time, the crop a write off. The fertilizer they were supposed to use is still in our storerooms and I hope they are going to use it for the next crop. The rains were too much and the crops were write off. I heard that the people in charge of command agriculture in the province had to come and assess the damage that was done by the rains. They did not get much.
Mr. President, this programme, as we are celebrating in those areas that got maize, we are happy because if our neighbours have enough food, we are also going to get the food because we are going to buy. We support that the command agriculture be extended to the fisheries, wheat and the command livestock as it is being promised. We hope that the distribution of all these is going to make sure that every Zimbabwean benefits from these inputs because we are part of all of you who are benefiting.
Mr. President, there was the facilitation by the Ministry of
Agriculture of trying to assist the ailing parastatals. I am talking of the
ARDA Antelope that merged with Trek Petroleum and yesterday, it was reported that they are doing well. They are doing very well for sure because my homestead is near where they are. The project affected 60 households that even today do not have grazing land and farms and they do not have food. They do not know how they are going to feed their families. If 60 households are affected, it means about 500 people are affected. I wish that the Committee of Peace and Security, as it has been alluded to looked into how everybody is happy by accessing food and grazing land. If you have grazing land, you can go into command livestock. It can look into the issue of these 60 households that were affected and were violently evicted from the area where they have
been…
THE ACTING PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE: For clarity
purposes Hon. Member, is this part of the command agriculture or you are talking of an ARDA issue?
HON. SEN. MLOTSHWA: I am talking of the command
agriculture that we are celebrating, is it not? But, trying to refuse that we have people who have no food while we are celebrating...
THE ACTING PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE: No, all I am
saying is, were these people moved because of the Command Agriculture Programme or because of the ARDA Programme? We just want to be clear so that we know what we are debating on.
HON. SEN. MLOTSHWA: ARDA programme, it is part of
Command Agriculture?
THE ACTING PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE: No, that was
some years ago. It was not this season when they were moved.
HON. SEN. MLOTSHWA: Mr. President, these people were moved last year during the Command Agriculture activities. When everybody else was accessing maize seed and fertilisers, they could not access because their land was taken. That is the point I am making. So, they could not access the seed. That is why they are not celebrating with us, because their fields were taken and violently taken for that matter.
I have brought it to the House and to the attention of the Minister of Lands and Rural Resettlement, but we also have evidence of the evictions because excavators destroyed the people’s fields. Yes, you can laugh Hon. Mashavakure, but that is exactly what happened to our people – [HON. SEN. MASHAVAKURE: I am enjoying the
expression.] -
HON. SEN. MLOTSHWA: Mr. President, you want to
understand that these people settled in this area in 1912 when they were evicted from Fort Rixon Emakhandeni by the colonial masters. So now, they are being evicted again at the height of the Command Agriculture Programme. That is why I think it is important that I speak to this issue so that at least the Committee on Peace and Security can take it because I do not sit in that Committee. If I am contributing like this, maybe they will be interested in investigating why these people are sad instead of celebrating the Command Agriculture Programme.
Mr. President, the Government last year in August evoked the plan of 1947 which the people of the area fought and won at independence when the colonial masters had a pact wanting to remove them from that area. Now, we are surprised as the people of that area why the
Government could be fulfilling the programme of the colonial era because of the rains we should be celebrating. Last year there were too much rains and these people had no fields and grazing area.
Mr. President, I raise this because we want to have peace in this country and we want our Committee which deals with the theme, which is the Thematic Committee on Peace and Security to look into this issue. If you respect the culture of a people and its identity, then the same people respect you. These people are in Matabeleland in Matopo where they are affected. Now, as we celebrate and carry out the livestock, fisheries and other programmes, where are they going to access and use the seeds or the livestock because they do not have the grazing area as we speak?
The rights of these people were greatly violated - rights to food.
As you harvest you must know that maybe you donate...
*HON. SEN. MAVHUNGA: On a point of order Mr. President. I think the Hon. Member has deviated from the motion. I think she should focus on the report on Command Agriculture and also Command
Agriculture is voluntary. Thank you.
*THE ACTING PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE: Let me
clarify that issue because I once raised it and sought clarity on the period that she is referring to. That is when she then explained that there are others that are not happy about the Command Agriculture Programme.
So, that is where she took it from and is continuing on that note.
HON. SEN. MLOTSHWA: Thank you Mr. President. You
know very well that if you do not stay in a certain area, you do not feel what the people are feeling there. These people - that is what they feel because in August, it was preparation for the October that you are talking about. So, if you take my field in August, then how can I access it in October? It is very difficult that I access it in October when you take my field in August.
THE ACTING PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE: Address the
Chair.
HON. SEN. MLOTSHWA: Mr. President, I thank you for
putting me in line. It is very painful to be a neighbour of a person who does not have food when you have food; even celebrating having tonnes and tonnes, but your neighbours having nothing. Your celebration is just in vain. You cannot celebrate having food when other people do not have anything.
Mr. President, we must be able to feel what the other people are feeling. We must not discriminate that because these people are from Matabeleland and you do not want to feel for them because you are from a different province.
THE ACTING PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE: That is not
the issue, no. I do not believe that is the issue.
HON. SEN. MLOTSHWA: That is the issue Mr. President, thank you very much. In Section 72 (123) of our Constitution, it states exactly how land can be acquired by Government and it even states that the people are not supposed to be paid for land, but they are paid for the developments that they make in a certain area. So, for the developments that these people have made since 1912 to date - how many years is that? Nothing has been promised to them that they are going to be paid for the developments that they made. At the same time, how then do they participate in the current programmes if they do not have the land?
To add on to that Mr. President, to put the excavators on the farms and even just remove the graves makes people not have peace. So, I am imploring the Peace and Security Committee to visit the area and investigate.
HON. SEN. CHIPANGA: On a point of order, Mr. President.
THE ACTING PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE: That, I will
allow because there are certain issues that are now creeping in.
HON. SEN. CHIPANGA: Whilst I agree entirely with the sentiments of the Hon. Member, I feel this is a different issue which should be addressed differently. We are talking about a report on Command Agriculture. To try and twist that report so that we can fit in another issue, which in my view requires its own time and its own heading, I do not think we are doing any service to the movers of the motion.
Mr. President, I hear what the Hon. Member is saying, I hear the sentiments she is expressing, I hear the tribal connotation that is being imputed in this debate, but I do not think that is worthwhile. I thank you.
THE ACTING PRSIDENT OF THE SENATE: May you wind
up your debate please.
HON. SEN. MLOTSHWA: Mr. President, in the contribution that I am making as we celebrate the success of the Command
Agriculture Programme, in other areas which are stated by the report - I think that is why we bring a report to the Parliament to have the debates by those who do not sit in the Committee and also for people to express their views, from the areas they come from where the Committee might not have visited.
I would like you to know that with the one hectare that I have, since I said I am part of the Antelope Irrigation Scheme, not the ARDA
Trek, because there is a section where there are individuals. – [HON.
SENATORS: Inaudible interjections.] –
THE ACTING PRESIDENT: Order, order please! Let her wind
up her debate.
HON. SEN. MLOTSHWA: I have entered my name for the
Command Wheat Programme that is being rolled out now. What I can witness is that the seed, like Hon. Sen. Timveos said, needs proper planning. We also need to take the views of the people that are in it. The seed for one hectare, a member was given a credit for 100 kg of seed, which is not enough. It is not enough because I, for the same piece of land - I have to buy another 120 kg in order to make sure that the seed was enough for that one hectare.
I am also happy that, I was told last week that the fertilizer has arrived. I think maybe for wheat for the Antelope Irrigation Scheme is going to be better if they get that fertiliser on time. Maybe they might celebrate like the other areas who are celebrating. I know it is difficult at times when we have to share our experiences and some people do not accept the truth and the experiences of other people. They also do not accept to solve the fate of other people.
As we move to the next phase of Command Livestock and
Fisheries, Mr. President, I wish that these 60 households that I talked about can be looked into and be given land, so that at least they form part of the people who are celebrating, because they were reduced to nothing. Bathathelwa ubuntu babo because if a person takes away lapho othembekhona it is like usathathelwe ubuntu bakho and it must not be done – the thing that is affecting them most is I am sharing with you and I want you to feel for these people, it was not done in a manner where people sit down and be told nicely. It was done in a Gukurahundi style. That is how it was done, where when you have powers, you exercise more powers to the defenceless people. That is the thing. I thank you.
THE ACTING PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE: Order, order,
that is now out of order. You are repeating yourself.
*HON. SEN. GOTO: Thank you Mr. President. I would like to thank you for affording me the opportunity to add a few words on the debate. I would also want to thank the Committee on Peace and
Security that did quite a splendid job. I listened as they presented their report and I realised that it was an eye opener. Even if you were not engaged in farming, once you heard that report, it would encourage you to start farming. I lost my crop but I am happy that as people debate, it gives me hope.
Command Farming has taken us out of poverty. For those who are into farming, you would not even believe that you were going to be able to get such yields. When you hear people saying that poverty is a curse, it is very true. I think the Command Agriculture Programme was a success. When I heard people saying that you need to appease the spirits to get enough rainfall, it is true. It happened, the chiefs took it up to appease the spirits and there was a lot of rainfall. I would like to thank the Government for all that has happened, as well as for the inputs that they availed for Command Agriculture.
Everyone who was under the Command Agriculture Scheme did well. For all those who are engaged in farming, in terms of food security, we are all secure. Even if the person failed to get surplus to sell, but food security for the family is there.
The challenges that we are facing as people under Command
Agriculture is that firstly the way we were accessing input – we gave our grievances that these should be brought to district. For those people in the Peace and Security Committee, inputs should come to districts instead of people going to province for inputs. With the fuel that you were given, you would use it for transport to get input instead of using it on the farm. This is a learning phase but as we get into the second phase, I think it is going to be more successful, because we have realised the challenges and we are going to address them.
It is true that the inputs came in short supply but they would all come, but at different times. I want to emphasise the point that was mentioned that inputs should come at the same time so that you plant your seed well. They should come at the same time so that everything is done at one go, than for us to say, ‘I got the seed but got the fertilizer late, that is why I did not produce good yield’. I would like to thank the Peace and Security Committee that went on a tour and what they saw was true and real, not hearsay.
I also would like to request for equipment. After doing such farming, you cannot harvest using human labour. So, the combine harvesters should be for the area, not individuals. If a person has his own combine harvester, they charge exorbitant hiring fees such as $100.00 per hectare. Probably if you go to the Command office, the hiring amount is much less. Some of us did not even have the combine harvester. When the maize overstayed on the field, that is when jealous crops up and veld fires are set to destroy our crops.
The farmers with tractors should have them well serviced. It is a challenge that we met as farmers. You would find that you have the mechanical challenges of the tractor thereby delaying the time for us to engage in the actual farming. Those without tractors should be availed tractors through loans. We also want security in terms of fences because of the late harvesting, cattle from other areas stray into our fields and destroy our maize. Command Livestock is coming in and it is more productive than maize. It is a good project, but it requires one who is into farming to produce food to feed the livestock. With cattle you can go to Koala or any other abattoirs. As Command Agriculture farmers, you should bear with us. As we speak right now, we are still harvesting and preparation is almost due for October, but the inputs have not yet come. We are still harvesting and wheat has to be planted. The
Committee’s report has been an eye opener. You have given us an opportunity to debate. You can ask a question - it cannot be addressed, but you have given us the opportunity to air our views.
In Mashonaland East, there is a challenge because others do not even have transport, especially the research extension officers. They should be on the ground. Whether I am ploughing wheat, maize or whatever, the irrigation command should be monitored by the research extension officer. On the soil tests that have been mentioned before, I support the Hon. Member who said that the soils are different and therefore require different seeds. You end up getting the wrong seed and that seed will not be conducive for the soil in your area. Thank you Mr. President for affording me the time to debate on Command Agriculture and thank you Hon. Sen. Mumvuri for the report that you tabled in this House, together with your Committee. May you remain united. No-one was disadvantaged. Everyone is open to Command Agriculture. It is voluntary. Farms are not for men only. Everyone is eligible for a farm and Command Agriculture. Let us take up the project and run with it. I thank you.
*HON. SEN. MAKORE: Thank you Mr. President for giving me this opportunity to say a few words on Command Agriculture. I am also a member of the Thematic Committee on Peace and Security.
Firstly, I would like to thank the Committee and the Chairperson, Hon. Sen. Mumvuri and the seconder of the motion that is before us in this House. The aim of this Committee was achieved because it had the objective of checking whether our silos and GMBs state of preparedness to get the grain …
*THE ACTING PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE: There is someone with a Mercedes Benz with a number plate ZAKA 1….
*HON. SEN. MARAVA: It is Hon. Chakona’s.
* THE ACTING PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE: Thank you.
*HON. SEN. MAKORE: The first objective was to access the preparedness of GMB and silos in terms of receiving the maize.
Secondly, we wanted to assess to what extent the farmers had engaged in farming.
The third objective was to check the challenges that the farmers met. This was done after realising that before we had experienced drought and hunger. So this project was to try and address the issue of food security in our country in order for us to go back to be the breadbasket of Africa.
It is true that in the past years in South Africa, Malawi and Zambia there was hunger, although they were engaged in farming. This is also included in our report. The other challenge that was noted was that in farming, our yields were very low. We could get 400 or 500 thousand metric tonnes, yet we had the capacity to produce 1 800 000 metric tonnes.
The other challenge farmers faced was that they did not have the skills. They were also not getting adequate financial support from the banks. This challenge resulted in the shortage of inputs. We want to thank the Command Agriculture Project that injected $500 million to alleviate the burden of the shortages that farmers previously faced in terms of inputs. We also want to challenge those who benefited to pay back the loan so that it becomes a revolving fund. If it does not revolve, it will affect production.
I want to thank the Committee for the tour they embarked on. We were able to experience and witness the challenges that people faced. However, these were minimal and such challenges included late delivery of inputs as others have already alluded to. In most areas even though they failed to get the type of seed that they wanted that are conducive for their soils – I know that farmers like myself use seed 727. That type of seed is wanted by everyone. We have heard that it was not available. Even though that was the case, I wish to say that this project was a good initiative because most people got high yields. The expected yield is said to be above 2 million metric tonnes nation-wide, which by far surpassed our expectations of 1.8 million metric tonnes.
I want to urge the farmers and remind them that farming is a form of business. To those who were successful farmers this year, I say congratulations because the money that they will make is quite a lot. I calculated it after one farmer informed me that he is getting more than a million tonnes – I was shocked when I calculated it at $390 per tonne. I want to appreciate such encouragement and as was said in the report, as we witnessed and as we proceed with this project, by September everything will be in place.
Most of the issues have already been debated by others but I want to urge the farmers, even those who are not engaged in farming to take up farming. Our nation is blessed with very fertile soils. It is only that in areas where there is no irrigation, there is need to intensify the process of setting up irrigation schemes. Mr. President, our soils need to be tested to assess their fertility but as we speak and evaluate the project, it successfully achieved its objectives, because our major objective is that of food security, which is one of the clusters in ZIM ASSET; our economic blueprint. At least if we are able to produce our own food, it helps us to save up to more than $200 million that we were using to import food from other countries. We have scored highly.
Since we have been able to score very highly, it is befitting that imported maize should be banned. It had become a form of business because it was being accessed at lower prices and sold at higher prices. We thank the Government for banning the importation of maize and this is to say that what we have is sufficient for us. This is just the first stage of the project that we have tested and it has proved good. Though it is good, we also meet challenges that we feel should be addressed as we proceed.
In future, if inputs are distributed on time and everything is done on time, we will most likely get even higher yields than what we got this year. I appreciate the challenges that have been faced but the project is a first of its kind. Challenges are bound to be faced, but they can be addressed. It is a learning curve, but combined harvesters and pivots are required; that should be given attention. I want to thank you Mr. President. I could not resist adding such sweet words on this good successful project. I thank you.
HON. SEN. MARAVA: I also want to thank my Chairman, who did a tremendous job, and whose leadership is second to none. We are led ably by Hon. Sen. Mumvuri in the Peace and Security Committee.
There is one thing that everybody seems to be missing here and I am happy to mention it. Before we can celebrate Command Agriculture, Command this and that, I think we must celebrate the Almighty, the Lord God who provided us with enough rains to plant and then we can always follow our instincts and capabilities on a platform that has been provided by God. We should thank God that again, the whole of SADC region got enough rains so much that even the markets to export to are going to be a problem for us. We thank God again that for the first time, we are going to have enough food for ourselves as Zimbabwe. We have not had enough food for ourselves for the last decade and not to command agriculture.
THE ACTING PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE: Hold it that
way.
*HON. SEN. MARAVA: Mr. President, I will not stand in the way of the President’s advice but the topic is always greater than the body so, the topic is God and the topic that has enabled it to happen, whatever we are talking about is God. We are also happy that the team that visited the few who are under command agriculture, have brought us this eye opening chapter and we are happy about that. Again, it is too early to celebrate. You cannot celebrate an experiment which has taken only one season, it is only one season old. While it is a good thing, we should wait for at least 4 to 5 years to celebrate it. At the same time, command agriculture…
THE ACTING PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE: Address the
Chair please.
*HON. SEN. MARAVA: I am addressing the Chair Mr. President. It is not only in Zimbabwe where command agriculture has been practiced, it is also practiced somewhere in Europe and other areas but at the same time, all those countries bordering us do not practice command agriculture. When Zimbabwe was a bread basket or referred to as a bread basket in the past years, it did not become titled to bread basket because of command agriculture, it was not so. We were the bread basket of Africa long before we talked of command agriculture. So, this is not a new thing in Zimbabwe, a bumper harvest is not a new
thing at all.
Mr. President, I want to say, we are forgetting one thing that the rural folk in this country knows nothing about command agriculture. They have not been included at all and at the same time, they produce more than the commercial farmer. The rural peasant farmer produces more that the commercial in this country and they have not been included in this. By inclusion, I mean teams and teams should have been send out to educate them, to encourage them and to show them the benefits and disadvantages of command agriculture. Nothing of that sort was done and here we are talking of those who own thousands of hectares and got hundreds of tractors. It is obvious that having been armed with such instruments, definitely you have to produce. Our country’s population, 70% is rural based and not commercial based.
Mr. President, command agriculture sweet as it sounds, good as is seen, must be national it is not supposed to be regional. The way we look at it right now at this experimental stage it is just regional, we are just talking of command agriculture in Mashonaland, nothing in Matabeleland, nothing in Masvingo and nothing in Midlands. So please, let it be national and not regional because it is a good thing and we are all nationals and we like it.
HON. SEN. MASUKU: On a point of order Mr. President.
THE ACTING PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE: What is your
point of order?
HON. SEN. MASUKU: Mr. President my point of order is that where I come from, command agriculture is there. He must stop saying
it is not national.
THE ACTING PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE: Thank you
Hon. Sen. Masuku for that point of order and I wish the other people and other regions in Masvingo could also stand up and state that it is there because you are misleading the Senate now because we know it is there, whether it has failed Masvingo or whatever but it is national.
HON. SEN. MARAVA: Thank you Mr. President, your word is
final. I was actually referring to places that I know of and in most of those places, there is nothing and that is why I actually asked if teams could be send to go and encourage and educate the rural peasants. Mr. President, honestly, to celebrate, we must but I think not now but later after we have weaned this thing because right now it is a suckling calf, it is one season old and it is still a baby that is still a suckling. Once we have tasted it after weaning it from the mother who happens to be the State, like we said, it is business and after weaning the command agriculture, people will be standing on their own feet, then we will definitely celebrate.
THE ACTING PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE: Just make
sure that we are clear on what we are debating. We are debating the
2016 and celebrating the 2016/2017 crop season that has been a success and that is agreed. For the future planning and something else, we need to plan as you said and other speakers who spoke before you said.
HON. SEN. MASUKU: I move that the debate do now adjourn.
HON. SEN. MARAVA: I second.
Motion put and agreed to.
Debate to resume: Tuesday, 1st August, 2017
On the motion of HON. SEN. MASUKU seconded by HON. SEN. MARAVA, the Senate adjourned at Twenty One Minutes past
Four o’clock p.m. until Tuesday, 1st August, 2017.
PARLIAMENT OF ZIMBABWE
Tuesday 25th July, 2017
The Senate met at Half-past Two o’clock p.m.
PRAYERS
(THE HON. PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE in the Chair)
ANNOUNCEMENTS BY THE PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE
INVITATION TO THE ZIMBABWE PARLIAMENTARIANS ON
HIV AND AIDS (ZIPAH) MEETING
THE HON. PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE: I wish to inform
the Senate that the Zimbabwe Parliamentarians on HIV and AIDS (ZIPAH) Executive is inviting all ZIPAH Members to a meeting to be held on Wednesday, 26th July, 2017 at 1200 hours in the Government Caucus room.
INVITATION TO A CATHOLIC CHURCH SERVICE
THE HON. PRESIDENT OF SENATE: I also wish to inform
the House that there will be a Catholic Service tomorrow, Wednesday, the 26th July, 2017 at 1200 hours in the Senate Chamber. All members who are Catholics and those who are not Catholics are invited.
MOTION
STATE OF THE NATION ADDRESS BY HIS EXCELLENCY THE
PRESIDENT
First Order read: Adjourned debate on motion in reply to the State of the Nation Address.
Question again proposed.
HON. SEN. CHIPANGA: I move that the debate do now adjourn.
HON. SEN. MUMVURI: I second.
Motion put and agreed to.
Debate to resume: Wednesday, 26th July, 2017.
MOTION
FIRST REPORT OF THE THEMATIC COMMITTEE ON PEACE
AND SECURITY ON THE PREPAREDNESS OF THE GRAIN MARKETING BOARD ON HANDLING THE 2016/2017 CROP
DELIVERIES AND THE SUCCESS OF THE COMMAND
AGRICULTURE PROGRAMME
HON. SEN. MUMVURI: I move the motion standing in my name
that this House takes note of the First Report of the Thematic Committee on Peace and Security on the Preparedness of the Grain Marketing Board to handle the 2016/2017 Crop Deliveries and the Success of the Command Agriculture Programme.
HON. SEN. MAKONE: I second.
HON. SEN MUMVURI:
1.0 INTRODUCTION
The Command Agriculture Programme, an import substitution-led industrialisation concept deliberately is meant to empower local producers of cereal crops particularly maize so as to achieve national food security and in the process, boosting capacity of farmers as well as the creation of employment for thousands of people in the sector. Introduced for the 2016/17 agricultural summer season, the programme is expected to produce maize bumper harvest. From 28 May 2017 to 2 June 2017, the Thematic Committee on Peace and Security conducted fact finding visits to selected Command Agriculture Programme beneficiaries to ascertain the success of the programme.
The Committee also toured selected GMB depots in the provinces to assess their state of preparedness to handle the expected 2016/2017 bumper harvest. This report provides the
Committee's major findings, conclusions and recommendations.
2.0 OBJECTIVES OF CONDUCTING THE TOURS
The Committee's fact finding visit was guided by the following objectives:
- To assess GMB’s state of preparedness to handle the expected 2016/2017 bumper harvest.
- To ascertain the success of the Command Agriculture contracted farmers in producing the expected maize.
- To appreciate the challenges affecting the smooth
implementation of Command Agriculture Programme in the provinces.
3.0 METHODOLOGY
On the 2nd March 2017, the Thematic Committee on Peace and Security received oral submissions from the Ministry
Agriculture, Mechanisation and Irrigation Development. From 28 May to 2 June 2017, the Committee visited, received submissions, and toured the GMB depots and farms in the following provinces: GMB Gweru Depot - Go Beer Farm (Midlands Province); GMB
Mvuma - Ziro Farm (Midlands Province); GMB Masvingo Depot
- Lamonde Farm and Bushmit Farm; Nyika GMB Depot
(Masvingo Province); GMB Rusape – Gijima Farm (Manicaland
Province); GMB Timbermills Depot – Merrifield Farm and
Pirsevale Farm (Mashonaland East); GMB Lionsden – Mavuso
Mudau Farm and Chipfundi Farm (Mashonaland West); GMB
Banket – Nyatimhenyu Farm (Mashonaland West); GMB
Concession – Belford Estate North Farm and Zanadu Farm; GMB
Bindura – Chawagona ZPS Farm; and GMB Aspindale.
BACKGROUND
Agriculture is the backbone of Zimbabwe’s economy.
Zimbabweans remain largely a rural people who derive their livelihood from agriculture and other related economic activities. At its peak, the sector provides employment and income for 6070% of the population, supplies 60% of the raw materials required by the industrial sector and contributes 40% of total export earnings. Be that as it may, in the previous years, cereal productivity in the farms, resettlement and communal areas, have not been at optimum level. In 2014/2015, Zimbabwe was one of the worst affected countries by the driest year in decades in Southern Africa - including Malawi, Zambia and South Africa.
This made the country food insecure.
The Government was compelled to spend over US$200 million on food imports to take care of food requirements of at least 2.4million citizens. Secondly, failure to prepare land and plant on time because of the shortages of or failure to procure seeds and fertilizers by farmers, and or due to lack of machinery, resulted in dwindling crop yields for some time in the country.
As stipulated in the Comprehensive Agricultural Policy
Framework (2012-2032), the main challenges facing the agricultural sector include, but not limited to: (i) low productivity; (ii) low level of farming skills amongst farmers; (iii) high production costs; (iv) lack of and/or limited availability of suitable finance schemes from commercial banks; and (v) shortages of crop inputs such as fertilizer; just to mention a few. These challenges compromised GMB's mandate to maintain minimum strategic reserves of at least 500 000 tonnes of grain in physical stock. National maize requirements for consumption are 1 800 000 tonnes/annum. Wheat, another strategic grain food crop, its consumption requirements are in the range of 350 000 –
450 000 tonnes /annum.
Against this backdrop, the Zimbabwe's Special Maize
Programme Production for Import Substitution (also referred to as Command Agriculture) was introduced in the 2016/17 agricultural season, to among other things: ensure food security and maize supply self-sufficiency. The $500 million Command Agriculture Scheme, is projected to produce in excess of 2 million tonnes of maize on 400 000 hectares of land. To ascertain the achievements of the Command Agriculture Programme by its beneficiaries, the Thematic Committee on Peace and Security conducted the fact finding visits and tour of the selected GMB depots and farms in seven provinces as outlined above.
5.0 COMMITTEE FINDINGS
5.1 GMB DEPOTS PREPAREDNESS
The Committee was pleased to note that GMB depots in the provinces were fully prepared to receive the anticipated bumper harvest, both from farmers contracted under Command
Agriculture and other farmers. GMB depots visited by the
Committee, Gweru GMB, Mvuma GMB, and other depots in
Masvingo, Nyika Growth Point, Rusape and Timbermills GMB in Mashonaland East were receiving new rail slippers and tarpaulin covering material for outdoor maize storage (hard surface storage). In addition, the silos at Lionsden GMB Depot, Concession GMB Depot and GMB Aspindale had undergone overhaul refurbishment, except water proofing which is due for completion by August before the rain season.
5.2 MAIZE BUMBER HARVEST
The Committee was further pleased to note that due to
Command Agriculture Programme, most if not all GMB depots are anticipating to receive huge maize deliveries from contracted farmers. At Bindura GMB Depot, Mashonaland Central, the Committee was informed that the province was allocated an area of 105 000 hectares under Command Agriculture.
In terms of harvest, command maize production was estimated to be at 141 176 tonnes, in a province that requires 130 776 tonnes for food requirements per annum. Thus, there is a surplus of 10 400 tonnes in the province. At Lionsden, GMB Depot, Mashonaland West, the Committee was informed that 40 515.727 metric tonnes were expected, up from 10 118.388 metric tonnes received during the 2015/2016 summer season. At Timber Mills GMB Depot, Mashonaland East, it was reported that 15 000 metric tonnes were expected from farmers contracted under Command Agriculture alone. The Committee thus, was of the view that despite challenges that are referred to below, the Command Agriculture Programme resulted in the tremendous expansion of hectares under maize and like to result in a bumper harvest that will surpass 2million tonnes.
5.3 SHORTAGES OF INPUTS
In all the provinces, and at all the GMB depots visited by the
Committee, late supply or no supply of inputs (basal fertilizer, top dressing fertilizer, herbicides and fuel) and inadequate supply of the right variety of seed maize to contracted farmers, was mentioned as the main challenge of the Command Agriculture
Programme.
In Masvingo Province at Lamonde Farm and Bushmit Farm, the Committee was informed that instead of providing fuel at the rate of 100 litres per hectare, farmers were given at reduced rate of 60 litres per hectare. Command Agriculture Programme still owes these farmers the standing balance of fuel that was supposed to have been supplied for land tillage services. Farmers whose farms were toured by the Committee reported that they had to plant maize seed variety that they could lay hands on or that had been supplied under Command Agriculture. In most cases, the
727 variety was in short supply and farmers ended up planting 637 variety. Depending on the region, the shortage of appropriate seed compromised the yield per hectare.
In Mashonaland Central, at Concession GMB Depot, the
Committee was informed that long delays at fertilizer factories in Harare took much of farmers' time. This then gave rise to corruption, and also that Agritex Extension workers spent too much time at command centres instead of giving instruction and training farmers in the fields. In addition, the Committee was told at Lionsden GMB Depot and in Mashonaland East that billing and costing of inputs given to contracted farmers was slowed and complicated by the fact that farmers in the same district were taking inputs from different collection points: some farmers were collecting inputs at Lionsden GMB Depot, others from Harare, and also from inputs suppliers like Sable Chemical in Kwekwe, Midlands, and lime was collected from Rushinga in Mashonaland
Central.
5.4 PAPER WORK AND SLOW RELEASE OF CONTRACT FORMS
The Committee was informed that the process of farms selection for Command Agriculture and related documentation was riddled with too much manual paper work. In particular, it was mentioned to the Committee that there was slow release of contract forms, and that 6 vouchers were needed per input during distribution.
5.5 AGRICULTURAL EQUIPMENT SHORTAGES The Committee was also concerned about the challenge related to shortage of tillage tractors and other critical equipment. While lack of tractors delayed land preparation and planting process, the Committee observed that shortage of combine harvesters and driers is delaying harvest process in all provinces. The slow maize harvests is delaying winter wheat planting since maize fields are not being freed for wheat planting. At
Chawagona ZPS Farm, Bindura, Mashonaland Central, the Committee was informed that using manual labour, it would take up to October to harvest the 120 hectares of maize. The Committee was further concerned that the late payment of tillage services by Command Agriculture was a drawback.
The Committee was informed that in light of the machinery shortages, Command Agriculture Programme is in the process of equipping farmers with critical machinery, although a lot need to be done in this regard. In Manicaland Province at Gijima Farm, the Committee was informed that a mechanisation programme was underway to repair 15 combine harvesters and 8 centre pivots in the province. To address shortage of agricultural equipment in the farms, the Committee was further informed that plans were at an advanced stage to set up a pivot manufacturing plant in Msasa,
Harare.
6.0 COMMITTEE OBSERVATIONS
- That all GMB silos had undergone refurbishment, except waterproofing which would be completed by August 2017.
- That Mashonaland Central anticipated a surplus of about 10 000 tonnes of maize due to Command Agriculture.
- That the Command Agriculture Programme has
resulted in a tremendous expansion of hectares under maize from previous years.
- That there was inadequate supply of the right variety of maize seed to contracted farmers.
- That during the current season, Agritex Officers spent
too much time at command centres instead of training and advising farmers on the ground.
- That billing and costing of inputs given to contracted farmers was slowed and complicated by the fact that farmers from the same district were taking inputs from different collection points.
- That the programme’s documentation and processes were riddled with too much manual paper work.
- That the programme witnessed a shortage of tillage tractors and other critical equipment.
- That GMB paid farmers on time that delivered their maize during the 2015/16 season.
- That weevils’ had already begun attacking maize still in the field in some areas like Chawagona ZPS farm in Bindura.
- That Government was subsidising at the output level of the chain of production instead of the input level.
7.0 CONCLUSION
Considering the speed with which the Command Agriculture was rolled out and its expected maize production projected to be in excess of two million metric tonnes, the programme is to a greater extent, successful in accomplishing its objectives. Under the programme, hectarage under maize was tremendously expanded to close to the anticipated 400 000 hectares, both dry and irrigated land. The objective of the programme, namely: to produce maize locally and reduce grain imports, was achieved.
However, the Committee concluded that a number of challenges continue to constrain the full realisation of the targets of the programme: late supply or no supply of inputs to contracted farmers; shortage of tillage tractors and other key equipment including combine harvesters, driers and pivots; late payment of rendered services such as payment of tillage services; and shortage of transport for the programme officers, just to mention the main ones.
8.0 COMMITTEE RECOMMENDATIONS
Given the Committee findings and the conclusion derived, the following recommendations are pertinent in order to ensure the success of the forthcoming second phase of the programme.
- Inputs for the 2017/18 summer farming season should be with the farmers as a full package by the end of September 2017. This will ensure that farmers plant in time. Early planting, in turn, will allow all maize variety adequate time to mature.
- The Command Agriculture Programme should have mechanisation as its critical component. Farmers should be assisted to get equipment: tractors, planters, combine harvesters, driers, and irrigation equipment, among others. This can best be achieved through affordable loan facilities since most farmers have demonstrated capacity to purchase their equipment once they produce and are paid on time. In the meantime, critical equipment which include combine harvesters and driers can be deployed at central GMB or collection points so that farmers in the vicinity can make use of such machineries at a fee. In addition, there are a lot of equipment in the farms with minor mechanical defects that are lying idle. The department of mechanisation, through Command Agriculture team on the ground, should locate such equipment and repair them so that farmers can make use of them in the forthcoming summer season. To make this possible, the Public Service Commission should decentralize the department of irrigation and mechanisation since they are currently based at provinces making it expensive for them to offer services to districts.
- The Command Agriculture Programme team, in particular the
AGRITEX extension officers, should be provided with adequate vehicles and motor cycles to make them efficiently mobile by the time the second phase begins. This is critical to ensure that they attend to farmers in need of information, assistance and monitoring services. Provision should be made so that all ministerial vehicles that are being used for Command Agriculture Programme duties should be urgently serviced to improve general mobility of responsible officers.
- Command Agriculture should improve its inputs distributive efficiency to the full benefits of all farmers, big and small. All essential inputs in their varieties, should be delivered at central GMB distribution points timely for collection by farmers. This is vital to avoid a situation where farmers end up going to Harare or to suppliers such as Sable Chemicals in Kwekwe, to collect seeds and fertilizers, and or Rushinga to collect lime at their own cost. Collection of inputs by farmers from the same central point will greatly improve the billing and costing and the reconciliation of financial records by the Command Agriculture team in provinces. Currently, documentation and billing of inputs given to farmers is proving difficult since farmers in the same district took inputs from different collection points.
- That contracted farmers, and indeed farmers on other programmes, should conduct soil tests on their farms to ascertain the type and precise quantities of fertilizer blends to apply and provide the results before they are given inputs for the second phase.
- The Command Agriculture Programme staff who under difficult circumstances and shortage of motor vehicles and other equipment continue to work even during weekends and holidays with unwavering dedication to duty, should be given incentives by giving them traveling and subsistence allowances beginning the 2017/18 farming season.
- Government should provide farmers with the right maize seed varieties and required inputs quantities for the 2017/18 farming season.
- GMB depots should maintain the momentum gathered in paying contracted farmers within 14 days of the delivery of their produce. This will enable them to embark on winter crop and also acquire the critical inputs in preparation for the next summer crop. Above all, prompt payment will inject confidence in farmers interested in engaging with the Command Agriculture Programme.
- In order to achieve the recommendations stipulated above, there is need to put in place a cropping calendar. Among other things, the calendar shall provide guidance to contracted farmers, Command Agriculture provincial teams, and inputs manufacturers and suppliers: (i) dates for the supply of inputs (fertilizers, chemicals, lime, seeds) to farmers by August for summer crop; (ii) timely accessing of ploughing, disking and harrowing services; coordinated and effective application of pesticides to eradicate pests; (iii) timed harvesting and collection of maize to free irrigation fields for winter wheat crop. I thank you.
*HON. SEN. MAVHUNGA: Thank you Madam President for
giving me the opportunity to add my voice to the report that was tabled by the Peace and Security Committee which investigated the preparedness of our Grain Marketing Boards in receiving grain from the Command Agriculture project, as well as going round to assess whether the Command Agriculture was a success.
Madam President, I would like to thank the foresight that the country had especially reflecting on four years of drought followed by rains, which was a result of climate change. The country experienced challenges to the extent that agriculture became a challenge and we ended up importing maize. I really want to appreciate the Command Agriculture project and also coupled by the heavy rains that we had, the
Command Agriculture project was a success.
In terms of peace and security, the country was at risk. I am sure that you are aware that if a person is hungry, it is difficult to control that person. If a person is hungry, he or she is susceptible to anything. So, the Command scheme brought in a lot of progress and alleviated poverty. The two million tonnes that had been projected by the
Command Agriculture has been surpassed. I am a beneficiary of the Command Agriculture project and I am really surprised when I look at the maize in my field. I think this will assist us in terms of peace and security. This will also reduce the brain drain that has been happening whereby people would cross to other countries in order to look for employment.
I would now want to focus on the preparedness of the GMB. We want to thank them for informing us they are well prepared. The challenge of the moisture content that farmers are facing should be addressed by the GMB in that they should have driers to ensure that they reach the moisture content that they want.
We also realised that corruption has also creeped in. People are forced to sell their maize at cheaper prices because of the moisture content which is condemned by the GMB; middlemen come in and buy the maize at a lower price. This has a bearing in terms of returning the loan that one was given for Command Agriculture. The loan needs to be repaid. Side marketing is a challenge, and paying back the loan is a challenge. When I come back in the next Parliament, you expect to see me well groomed and healthy because of the money that I will have got from the harvested grains.
Our GMB depots should have driers to ensure that our crop is taken to the GMB earlier so that when we take our crops, the agricultural land can be used for other crops. We had a lot of challenges in the last season. If a project is initiated, it meets different challenges. The 7 series should have been planted in October. Even the irrigation crops should have ploughed in October. Those under irrigation were being given the 7Cs; 7Cs is a challenge if we delay in planting it but we thank the almighty for the rains that we had that helped us to get a lot of grain.
The drying of the 7Cs crops also takes long hence GMB should have dryers. I think what we need to do now is to ensure that all the inputs are available so that when a farmer comes he is given all his inputs at the same time. This will assist because if you spend a lot of time waiting for the inputs, you waste a lot of time whilst nothing is taking place on the agricultural land. So inputs must be readily available.
The communities we represent have also been urged to come and register for the project and they are encouraged to register even those without much land. For those without land, they can also be subcontracted pieces of land by those with the land; the owner of the farm has to write an affidavit to ensure that they get inputs. I also want to support what was said in this Senate that those who support us with extension services who are the research extension officers should be availed resources to do their work. They know their work and they know how to go about in land preparation and know which soil is suitable for what. If these people do not come, we end up putting a lot of seed thinking that we will harvest a lot of grain then we end up putting a lot of fertiliser and in the end the produce is reduced per hectare. When you were expecting high yields, you end up getting very
little.
So, I stood up to say that this project was successful and it assisted us and I am hoping that it will be extended to the production of small grains, even the seed for small grains and other projects that are coming in like livestock, command fisheries; this should be extended to the populace of Zimbabwe. With these words, I thank you Mr. President.
HON. SEN. MOHADI: Thank you Mr. President, I also want to add my voice to this motion which was moved by Hon. Sen. Mumvuri and I cannot remember the seconder. Mr. President, I am also a member of this Committee. Let me tell you that Command Agriculture is a great success. Wherever we went, there was enough maize that was produced even though farmers had challenges here and there. Those who did not engage in the Command Agriculture, I now urge them to join and do so because it is open to each and every member so that we have sufficient food in the country.
Mr. President, this Command Agriculture had its own problems as it was just starting, those who have come before me alluded to that. It was just because everything was starting and no one was very sure of what was happening. Let me tell you that I was very much impressed in Mashonaland West because the farmers were busy and they had enough maize. You find that the farmers in Mashonaland where other farmers could not manage - having problems of draught power or having problems of fertilisers, those who had fertilisers and draught power could assist in ploughing and planting for them which was a good gesture.
Mr. President, in Mashonaland West, maybe it was my first time to see a field which was full of maize where you could manage to see where it is starting but you could not see where it is ending, it was really good. There was a challenge of the fall worm, you find that those who planted their maize late were affected by the fall army worm and there was no one who was prepared to give them pesticides for the fall army worm. According to the information given on this worm, it is said that it can go on for three years and as we speak you find that even though the maize is dry now, it can just stay in the maize stalks and then come next season it starts again. So, there is need for farmers to remove all their stalks from the field to make preparations for the coming season for those who were affected.
Another great problem which was faced by other farmers is a problem of a natural phenomenon like floods. You find that some of the farmers who had gone for the Command Agriculture, all their maize was swept away by floods because the rain was too much in other areas and they ended up losing some of their crops. Another problem which was also said by others is the challenge of combine harvesters. Farmers did not have combine harvesters which is a problem even now. Some farmers have not even finished harvesting their maize just because some have big fields of which they could not even harvest using manpower or any other small things or maize shellers. So, they had to wait for the few combine harvesters so that each and everyone could get a chance of which it is a challenge really. Also from these challenges that I have talked of, you will find that the price of maize, including the small grains, is very reasonable. Taking into consideration that Zimbabwe is paying US$390 per tonne for both maize and small grains, I think it is the highest paying country in the SADC region - [HON. SENATORS:
Hear, hear.] –
Why so, it is trying to avoid this problem of importing maize every year. We have to produce our own food and we have to live within our own means as Zimbabweans and avoid importing because all the money which was supposed to be used for other projects was not going towards the importation of maize. If we continue producing our own maize, maybe we will end up having a surplus that we can also sell to other countries which is commendable.
Mr. President, I also encourage Government to put into use, we have heard about the Command Livestock but it has not really come to the people. People who are in areas like Region 5 do not harvest a lot of maize. They specialise mostly on livestock. Let the Command Livestock be implemented as soon as possible because they are patiently waiting for those cattle so that they also produce. We cannot just say maize alone because sometimes as did happen this year, it was augmented by the heavy rains that were received, but if there are no rains, those living in the low rainfall areas might not harvest anything but with livestock, I know that they can sail through.
Let me end up by saying, those who are engaged in the Command Agriculture dealing with maize, please let us make sure that we pay back so that this programme continues. The programme cannot continue if we just take the inputs and do not pay back. There are also other farmers who are waiting and want to join this Command Agriculture. If we do not pay back, these farmers will not be able to get inputs and also the combine harvesters that we are talking about. With these few words Mr. President, I thank you.
*HON. SEN. BHOBHO: Thank you Mr. President for giving me
an opportunity to speak this afternoon to add a few words on this motion moved by Hon. Sen. Mumvuri and his seconder on the field visits that they conducted in terms of the Command Agriculture Scheme. I would want to thank the Committee for having gone on this field trip. It also educates us and we also enlighten our constituents where we are based that this is a good project. We are quite strong about preaching the good gospel about the Command Agriculture because the results are self evident. They literary stare you in the face. In certain areas, the
Command Agriculture’s take off was slow and it is in those areas where there was a slow uptake of the project that we are urging people to start doing so.
God also blessed us with heavy rains and we have a bumper harvest. You go to the GMB depots and you observe this bumper harvest. In earnest, we are quite grateful for that and we thank the Committee for going round and informing people. Field visits enable our people to know what is happening in this country. This is a good economic project. A lot of people have done farming and they are sending maize to the GMB. We thank the Government and the Committee for having gone round and for the investigations. I believe you also did a prudent job in carrying out thorough research.
Our country is very rich. We should go onto the land. We have seen quite clearly the wealth that we have in Zimbabwe through farming. They were occasions when people never used to have sufficient inputs. Our Government gave the lowest of the low inputs even to those that are able to sustain themselves. Those that were not part of the
Command Agriculture are also being allowed to send their maize to GMB at the same price as those that are on the Government Command Agriculture.
We want to thank our Government for having done a very good job. If I have a large field and my friend were to ask for two hectares, I will give them so that they are also able to plough and sell and reap rewards from such an enterprise. This year, the Zimbabwean people have given the President time off from extending the begging bowl. I thank you for having done a good piece of work. We would want to thank the Government for this took place in our country. These are the few words that I have decided to use in support of the Committee that carried out these investigations on how well the people of Zimbabwe worked. Thank you so much to the Committee and keep up the good work. I thank you.
*HON. SEN. CHIMBUDZI: I would want to support the report tabled by the Chairman of the Thematic Committee on Peace and Security who was seconded by Hon. Sen. Makone on the field visits that they conducted in review of the Command Agriculture. We are quite happy. In truth, I am a member of that particular Committee and our entire Committee was happy to see that this was development at a large scale in our country. The members that were involved in the observation were quite happy.
If you look at the GMB before the introduction of the Command Agriculture, the silos were in a state of disrepair. When we went round, we observed that they had repaired the silos and in some cases, the workers were finishing off the painting work and silos were now being put into good use instead of them being left to lie idle. At one particular GMB, we were told that they were expecting visitors from Namibia that were coming to witness what the Command Agriculture could achieve.
It means that our neighbours are now emulating our example and would want to carry it out in their own countries. We want to thank the Zimbabwean people for having worked hard.
Let me say that a lot of things have already been said. Even if farmers have plenty of maize, they wished they could remove their maize crop so that they could plant wheat but because of the moisture content which was too high, they could not do so. The other problem that they face is the non-availability of combine harvesters and as a result, there are delays in the planting of wheat. In Mashonaland Central, most of the farmers that we were seeing were youths. I even envy them that I should have taken my youths from Mashonaland Central to Mashonaland West so that they can learn. A hard worker eats very little and one who does not work eats a lot. If you have money, it controls you. Command agriculture is there to eradicate poverty amongst the populace. Let me say that I also saw, as the Chairman has earlier on stated, that the problem of disused equipment or that cannot be repaired such as combined harvesters, tractors and other equipment, we saw that the majority of the equipment was not being used. We urge Government to assist the farmers in the repairs of the machinery so that they are put to good use. Spare parts are difficult to get for farmers who do not know where they can acquire the spares. It takes them a lot of time to acquire these spares. May the Government assist in that regard? This is my plea, the farmer will not have their machinery repaired for free. That is what I would want to say.
When we got to Banket, the General Manager was quite proud that in Mashonaland West, Banket was the busiest Grain Marketing Board. There were several 30 tonne trucks that were delivering their grain. This meant that the farmers were ready to deliver their produce. We saw some conmen who had their tents pitched nearby and I think there should be a law to protect the command agriculture produce. It should not be diverted to these conmen. The maize is going to assist us.
We had floods problem in Matabeleland North and the command agricultural produce will help us feed those farmers that were affected by floods in Matabeleland North and other areas. If we had such a bumper harvest, we should be able to distribute it nationally so that no one will starve. We are proud that many countries are now coming here to witness the command agriculture. There is drought in South Africa and President Zuma has declared a state of emergency as a result of the drought. In Uganda, there is also hunger and so, they will come and buy from us. Our economy will improve and our Members of Parliament are going be paid their salaries because the country will be having funds.
We thank the Committee for the good work that they did. Your report is going to be taken by Government so that they can continuously improve. We urge the Ministry of Agriculture to help the Agricultural Extension officers by providing them with transport so that they can advise the farmer on the ground. I thank you Mr. President.
HON. SEN. MUMVURI: I move that the debate do now adjourn.
HON. SEN. MOHADI: I second.
Motion put and agreed to.
Debate to resume: Wednesday, 26th July, 2017.
MOTION
REALIGNMENT OF LEGISLATION TO THE CONSTITUTION
HON. SEN. MAKORE: I move the motion standing in my name
that this House –
NOTING with concern the slow pace of the realignment of legislation to the Constitution;
EXALTING and upholding the spirit enshrined in the Preamble of the Constitution which embraces the brave men and women who sacrificed their lives to liberate all people in Zimbabwe regardless of race, colour, tribe or creed;
COGNISANT of the role played by our fore fathers and compatriots who contributed enormously towards the independence and democratic processes in our country;
REAFFIRMING our commitment to upholding the rule of law, transparency and accountability in Zimbabwe;
NOW, THEREFORE, resolves that:
- Unity of purpose and goodwill be upheld by all people of
Zimbabwe;
- Institutions be apolitical in all respects.
- The outstanding provisions of the Constitution be implemented by 30 November, 2017.
HON. SEN. B. SIBANDA: I second.
HON. SEN. MAKORE: Mr. President, the motion intends to address gaps that create wrong perception within our society. We are an independent State and are one people. Our combined efforts contributed to the obtaining of independence from the colonial regime. Our constitutional Preamble captures the actual vision. If I may be allowed to quote Mr. President, ‘United in our diversity by a common desire for freedom, justice and equality and our heroic resistant to colonialism, racism and all forms of domination and oppression; Exalting and extolling the brave men and women who sacrificed their lives during the chimurenga/umvukela and liberation struggles; Honouring our forebears and compatriots who told for the progress of our country; Recognising the need to entrench democracy, good, transparent and accountable governance and the rule of law; Reaffirming our commitment to upholding and defending fundamental human rights and freedoms”. The boldness of the vision is in itself a call for unity and goodwill among all Zimbabweans irrespective of colour, tribe or political affiliation and religion.
Mr. President, the motion seeks to draw attention of all
Zimbabweans to respect our Constitution, a supreme law of the country by respecting individual rights of our fellow Zimbabweans. We should also put in mind Chapter 4 of the Constitution, Fundamental Rights.
Section 119 (1) of the Constitution gives Parliament power to protect the
Constitution and promote democratic governance in Zimbabwe. Section
119 (2), Parliament has power to ensure that provisions of this Constitution are upheld and that the State and all institutions and agencies of Government at every level act constitutionally and in the national interest.
It is therefore, the duty of this Parliament to satisfactorily ensure that State agencies, institutions including our chiefs are in compliance with the Constitution. Section 61 (5) (b) of the Constitution, our freedom of expression does not in any way tolerate advocacy for hatred or hate speech that incite violence among the people of Zimbabwe. It should not be treated as an offence to attend any party rally anywhere else in this country. If any authority bars people from attending, it will be a breach of fundamental rights and freedoms, either of expression or of association, according to the Constitution of Zimbabwe.
Section 281 (1) (c) requires chiefs to treat all persons within their areas equally and fairly. Subsection 2 (a) of Section 281 says, traditional leaders must not be members of political parties or in any way participate in partisan politics or (b) act in a partisan manner.
Mr. President, our humble request is to ask traditional leaders to desist from partisan association and become neutral. In the Election Observation Report 2013: Harmonised Elections, the Catholic Commission for Justice and Peace (CCJP), on page 11 of their report, it is indicated that traditional leaders used their influence to force communities to support their political parties by organising meetings where they will tell villagers to vote for a political party, otherwise they will not receive humanitarian aid. They will be beaten, killed, have their homes burnt or they will be evicted from their villages. In some areas, political activists instruct their opponents to pretend to have blindness or illiteracy so as to be assisted to vote by known political supporters.
Mr. President, the report findings indicate that agents and civil servants were forced to form grass root structures for a political party.
That is a recipe that shows unpreparedness for democratic elections.
This election is calling for political correctness in order to respect our Constitution which we put in operation on 22nd May, 2013. We call upon all civil servants to relinquish from party politics and become professionals. Also, we are bound to stand guided by the Constitution for our political correctness.
As Parliament, we should set a tone which quells violence brought about through emotions, opportunism and patronage in a bid to gain favour or position as Members of Parliament.
The motion is calling for equality of treatment despite party affiliation. Section 3, (a) on founding values and principles says,
Zimbabwe is a multi party democratic political system.
Mr. President, my considered view is that our institutions should not be found conflicting with the Constitution by way of victimising, intimidating and continuously inflicting fears among people. Mechanisms of regaining freedom, confidence in our Government, processes for peace and good citizenship should be entrusted to our Constitution to avoid infringement of rights in order to build a culture of harmony in our societies.
Partisan behaviour has created barriers to the highly talented and professionally qualified people from getting employed or accorded opportunities of doing business, be it agricultural or other prenuaral activities because of their political affiliation.
The kind of developing culture, if not stopped, will not in any way assist in quelling violence and instil the spirit of unity and goodwill among our societies.
Politics should be separated from economic activities. We therefore expect to see people being regarded or given opportunities based on merit, abilities and creativeness in an equal and flexible manner irrespective of their colour, tribe or political affiliation.
Mr. President, we should treat politics as a hobby and understand that politicians are a few policy makers. The rest of the people are followers or political supporters in their own right. They should not be made to suffer by putting their support on a political principle brought by politicians.
The need for people in our societies is to find a solution to their social requirements; that is jobs, running water, food and shelter, social amenities for their children, education and expansion of the economy facilitated by politicians.
Violence, divisions or selectiveness does not build our nation. The nation needs to be united, productive, depoliticised, and resourceful in order to enjoy their independence. Mr. President, we are looking for a proud nation with a lot of love for each other, respect and dignity for its people, a nation that creates peace and good visions for generations to come.
Mr. President, we are expected to shape the future of our children with full understanding that the current crop of people perish leaving generations behind. These generations should enjoy our legacy and also continue to be creative for the next generations.
It is my humble call to initiate political correctness as dictated by our Constitution for equality and confidence of our nation. I thank you Mr. President.
HON. SEN. B. SIBANDA: I am privileged to support a very eloquently put across motion by Hon. Sen. Makore. I thank Sen. Makore for bringing before this House pertinent issues that create Zimbabwe and do not dismember Zimbabwe.
My basis of support, Mr. President, is based on four fundamental values specified in our Constitution. These values include the supremacy of the Constitution that we created ourselves as a nation and a people of Zimbabwe. The Constitution is the pillar, Mr. President. The behaviour of people of the nation or any of its constituent elements are the support pillars. Therefore, this pillar must be respected to the extent that any law which may not have been aligned to the Constitution, but is superseded in quality and strength by the components of the Constitution, should subject itself to that Constitution. This is my opinion. I accept, Mr. President, I could be a bush lawyer, but this bush lawyer is talking common sense.
The second fundamental element which is the basis of support for the motion, are the prescribed human rights and freedoms that are enshrined in our Constitution. I am told that they are comprehensive. They are representative of a nation that thinks of itself, thinks of its today and thinks of its future. Therefore, they form the platform on which we can build a better Zimbabwe.
The third fundamental that I will look at is the liberation struggle. The liberation struggle prosecuted by our own nationals, maybe a liberation struggle that in vigour and strength, is not surpassed by any liberation struggle within the southern region. It was the most fought and the most energetic liberation struggle. The souls that we laid or laid the foundation of our independence should, if they had an opportunity, stand up and say we value the input that we made. Our compatriots and our children are benefiting from that input.
Mr. President, we should be a nation proud of its history, we should be a nation proud of laying a solid foundation for their future. Therefore, blessed with a very correct and respected Constitution, we should be able to move this nation forward.
The fourth and last fundamental is the constitutional call for good governance. The constitutional call for good governance is designed to offer Zimbabweans a life they can enjoy today; a foundation they can set up for their children tomorrow and indeed, for the many generations that will come in future.
Mr. President, let me go back a bit to the liberation struggle and the sacrifice. When you sacrifice, you forgo personal privilege for the future or for the benefit of others that have not necessarily done so. It is therefore lost opportunity for those souls. It is those souls that we should exalt, respect and endevour to show that alive or dead, we respect their contribution. Therefore, history should not be selective.
I was recently approached by somebody who told me about one of the history textbooks that amount to glorifying not all political prosecutors of the struggle but certain individuals. What I am saying is, that would not be showing respect for the souls that lie restless in all the corners of this nation. We need an accurate version of history. We need a history that tells Zimbabwe as it is; a history that exalts every individual who contributed in the struggle. Even if it is silent on those who did not actually hold the gun, but it must put history in its correct perspective. I therefore say that in order to fulfill the demands and wishes of our Constitution, we should all endeavour to build that history.
On political institutions, it is the quality of political institutions that we put into place that fertilize and nurture all our capacities. Specifically here, critical political institutions that we have include traditional institutions, the civil service, the security sector and I could name a few more. I am glad that the President of this country eventually recognised that the security sector cannot be a political player. We have previously allowed – [HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.] – We have previously allowed institutions that are supposed to be independent to interfere with political system. We have previously abused institutions that are fundamental to our development and growth to engage in politics.
All I can tell you, having been in the game of politics for many years, I know no truth tellers in politics; no respecters of fundamental rights in politics, I only know of people who chop and change. When those people infiltrate the institutions, the institutions are spoiled and start rotting. Therefore, the institutions must be de-politicised. I make a strong call Mr. President for the de-politicisation of the traditional institutions, civil service, thesecurity sector and any other institution.
I have just read a book which says, the growth and development of a nation is directly related to the quality of its institutions. Let us not create institutions that will move Zimbabwe backwards instead of moving her forward. I was saddened to learn that we have moved Zimbabwe backwards, maybe by two decades. Two decades is an understatement, we have actually moved Zimbabwe four decades back.
It is largely because we have politicised institutions that should be helping us with technical information to develop.
Today’s world is not a world that develops around political talk. It is not a situation where people develop around political pronouncements. It is the technical institutions that give guidance and political systems only validate that guidance. For me it is very important that we strengthen positive institutions, that we recognise the capacity of technocrats to move this nation forward.
Lastly, a public office demands transparency, accountability and fair mindedness. Politics in general lacks these attributes. In short, political systems must validate our liberation values and expectations. It is with that view that I say we must exalt pre-independence actors. We must exalt our current intellectual thinkers or create a ground that is going to exalt the behaviour and performance of coming generations.
Why am I saying this when we are pursuing this debate? This is because I think it is important that we align the entirety of our political behaviour, systems, operating and administrating systems to the Constitutions in order to give strength and development to this nation. I thank you.
*HON. SEN. CHIMBUDZI: Thank you Mr. President. I would
like to support the motion raised by Hon. Sen. Makore, seconded by Hon. Sen. Sibanda. I would like to thank you for bringing this motion to this House. We have heard what you said. I am addressing my mind to your first point, on unity. Unity is important, if you listen to the speech of His Excellency the President when he presents the Official Opening of Parliament; he always talks of unity. He respects and honours that there be unity.
The problem is with us Members of Parliament when it is election time. It is not the problem of the voters but us Members of Parliament.
I was hoping that Hon. Sen. Makore’s good report should have gone further to say, as we look forward to the 2018 elections; since you have already given us what your views are, you could just add that any Member of Parliament who causes violence in his/her constituency, should be disqualified there and then, because such an MP is not a good leader. It is not the chief who has caused the violence. The chief has a role to play in an area under his/her jurisdiction, which is to vote. For one to be a chief he has to vote. So, it is not the duty of chiefs to end violence.
Members of Parliament, the ball is in our court. It is us who gang up with youths to go and attack rival candidates. My proposition is that there should be fewer men and more women for Parliamentary seats. Men are a problem; we will come here with chiefs. If this House is full of women there will be no violence. Men cannot control each other. Why should we have to wait for CCJP to remonstrate with you? Put your house in order. It is men who cause violence. You must introspect.
CCJP, gave their opinion regarding chiefs, did they discuss with them. Did they discuss with political parties in those areas to find who causes the violence. My opinion is more women in Parliament than men. We want this Parliament to be full of women. Men should go home and keep themselves busy. Let us keep the peace. No one loves violence, we all love peace. Even in a family when parents are violent, there is no development. Children do not go to school and the mother is not properly clothed because the husband is violent. If the majority of our MPs are women, there will be peace. You know that we can put you in check, that is what you left out in your motion that this Parliament should be full of women so that there will be peace. We do not want violence. We have talked about it and we have said it is not good as Members of Parliament. Any Member of Parliament who is involved in violence should be disqualified from taking their seat in Parliament. He should not take his seat in Parliament because he is not an exemplary leader. Let us have more women in Parliament. I thank you.
HON. SEN. MAKORE: I move that the debate do now adjourn.
HON. SEN. KHUMALO: I second.
Motion put and agreed to.
Debate to resume: Tuesday, 25th July, 2017.
MOTION
REPORT OF THE 40TH PLENARY SESSION OF THE SADC – PARLIAMENTARY FORUM
Fourth Order read: Adjourned debate on motion on the Report of the 40th Plenary Session of the SADC Parliamentary Forum held in Harare, Zimbabwe from 3rd to 15th November 2016.
Question again proposed.
*HON. SEN. SHIRI: Thank you Mr. President. I would like to thank Hon. Sen. Mohadi for the report that she tabled. I will add just a few words to this motion that there be a regional Parliament that will include Zimbabwe as a Member of SADC.
We debated the SADC Model Law extensively in this Senate. We are quite happy that the issues of rape now attract sentences that we are happy with. Those that will have raped children should be given forty years. We are happy because our efforts were not in vain. We are observing that our laws have now been enhanced.
I would also like to add that the question of 50-50 should also be implemented. I encourage women in this Chamber to assist one another to ensure that we have more women, including the disabled. I would also want to urge Hon. Sen. Mohadi that when you are at foras like these, please ensure that Senators are represented and those that represent the disabled are also present so that whatever we want to come up with as a region, we are also included.
Without wasting time, I would like to say thank you and that this is a good report. We support you. Thank you Mr. President.
HON. SEN. MOHADI: I move that the debate do now adjourn.
HON. SEN. MLOTSHWA: I second.
Motion put and agreed to.
Debate to resume: Tuesday, 25th July, 2017.
MOTION
FIRST REPORT OF THE THEMATIC COMMITTEE ON
INDIGENISATION AND EMPOWERMENT ON THE
CIRCUMSTANCES SURROUNDING THE NON-ESTABLISHMENT OF THE COMMUNITY SHARE OWNERSHIP TRUSTS
Fifth Order read: Adjourned debate on the First Report of the Thematic Committee on Indigenisation and Empowerment on the circumstances surrounding the non-establishment of Community Share Ownership Trusts in Mudzi and Mutoko Districts.
Question again proposed.
HON. SEN. MUSEKA: Thank you Mr. President for giving me the opportunity to also put my input to the Thematic Report by Hon.
Sen. Tavengwa seconded by Hon. Sen. Chief Dandawa.
I read the report and I think it is sad because there is not much activity in that area. I think it is quite apparent when you read the report that it is a bit difficult to establish a Community Share Ownership Scheme. Since the report was just about noting, I also want to give it a comparison to where it has worked. For example the Mhondoro-Ngezi, Chegutu and Zvimba Community Share Ownership Scheme; noting from that report, we need what is called critical mass or critical production for a Community Share Ownership Scheme to be viable.
There is no critical production in Mutoko.
The granite stone that is being talked about, when it is quantified, it is difficult to establish a serious Community Share Ownership Scheme as compared to Mhondoro-Ngezi, Chegutu and Zvimba – ZIMPLATS where they are mining the famous ore. It is working very well. Schools and roads are being built. Right now, I think they have moved to the second stage of trying to establish a Community Share Ownership different from Community Trusts, but Community Share Ownership. It is because the mining or extraction has what we call ‘critical mass’. The volumes are large, coupled with good management; the selection of the management at ZIMPLATS…
HON. SEN. MLOTSHWA: On a point of order Mr. President Sir.
THE TEMPORARY PRESIDENT (HON. SEN. CHIEF
CHARUMBIRA): What is your point of order?
HON. SEN. MLOTSHWA: My point of order is I am reading a new report from what the Hon. Member is debating because the report here is not talking about what he is now moving.
THE TEMPORARY PRESIDENT: Ndichambofunga. The Hon.
Sen. is saying this report is about Mudzi and Mutoko, you have moved from there, you are now in Mhondoro-Ngezi. That is the point of order raised, please proceed.
HON. SEN. MUSAKA: I thank you Mr. President. Perhaps the
Hon. Senator was not listening when I started, I said I will read the report and I want to give comparison where it can work and give illustrations of how it is working elsewhere and the reasons why it is not working. Probably the Hon. Senator was not listening. However, Mr. President, I sympathise, it is true the establishment of an ownership scheme in Mutoko is a bit difficult because there is not very much production going on there. I thank you – [Laughter.] –
HON. SEN. MASUKU: Mr. President, I move that the debated do now adjourn.
HON. SEN. SHIRI: I second.
Motion put and agreed to.
Debate to resume: Wednesday, 26th July, 2017.
MOTION
FIRST REPORT OF THE THEMATIC COMMITTEE ON
SUSTAINABLE DEVELOPMENT GOALS ON SDG NO. 3
Sixth Order read: Adjourned debate on motion on the First Report of the Thematic Committee on Sustainable Development Goals on SDG
No. 3.
Question again proposed.
*HON. SEN. SHIRI: Thank you Mr. President for affording me this opportunity. I would want to thank Hon. Sen. Chief Mtshane and the report that he tabled, I am a member of that Committee. We went to Murewa, Marondera and visited hospitals to establish what their status is and how people are accessing health facilities.
If we look at SDG 3, it expresses that people should have good
health from children to the elderly covering a wide spectrum of those that are in the communal lands and urban centres. We observed that the people that are in the communal lands are facing a lot of problems as they go to the hospitals. Yes, we know that our people start from the clinics go to the district hospitals and then to provincial hospitals. If we look at other problems such as cancer, it is now on the increase and we observe that in clinics, they do not have adequate machinery to test for cervical cancer. People have to walk long distances to access such treatment or travel longer distances to access treatment. For those that are mentally disturbed, their medication is not readily accessed in hospitals. Those that are mentally challenged, the majority of them are involved in violent acts because they are failing to access proper drugs and the drugs are expensive when they are available.
So, the issue of the health fund should be fully supported for it will help us to ensure that our people access drugs. We also urge that this project should be run from the clinics up to the central hospitals in the entire country. Some people are failing to even raise bus fare to access these health institutions. The health care fund is going to be sustained and the funding is going to be raised from taxation on airtime. This is a good project if it is put to good use; it is sympathetic to witness that when one goes to hospital to carry out a national duty of giving birth, if they fail to pay hospital fees, they are detained in hospital.
I was saying that women should be given free maternal health because they will be performing national duty of aiding the population of the country. Looking at health issues, women must not die giving birth. We read it in the newspapers that a lot of women are actually dying as they give birth. Let us have waiting mother’s shelters at rural hospitals and clinics so that they can utilise this when they are nearing delivering. We went to the labour ward; the beds that are there are a problem to the disabled, they are too high. People have different kinds of disability. I went there and observed what these beds are like and there is a serious challenge to this regard. If it were possible, we would want this issue addressed so that everyone can access such hospitals.
These hospitals should not discriminate other people; disabled women have a right to giving birth and right to receive medication.
We went round with doctors and we saw that those that are dumb or who have hearing impairments have problems in accessing hospitals because there is no one who can communicate using sign language. We asked how they assist such people; they said they have a difficulty in assisting such persons. We urge that all nurses and all medical personnel be taught sign language. They are doing sign language but they require refresher courses so that they remain competent in communicating with people that are deaf and dumb. In other areas, you will hear that wrong medication was dispensed due to lack of communication between the patient who is deaf and dumb and the doctor. There are a lot of people that have hearing impairments even if they do not have high qualifications, they should be used as general hands so that they can assist in communicating. If you have such a person in your employment, you will be able to learn what good morning and good afternoon is in sign language. We request that such persons be employed in such hospitals so that should there be a patient, they will be able to assist in communicating with the patient.
We hear of cases that people failed to understand what the communication was all about and ended up deeming someone to be insane. Everyone should be taken care of and in health issues; we should get to that stage. They say we should be HIV free by 2030 so we would want all programmes that are going to be coming on board to also address the plight of the disabled and specifically those that are mainly in communal lands. People should be able to get assistance at hospitals or clinics as it is expensive to travel from the local clinic to the referral centres because they do not have the money. Let me reiterate that in hospitals, we want people’s well-being at all levels cutting across from the children when they have immune injections, assistive devices such as clutches and wheelchairs for use by the disabled which are not readily available. Some use their arms and limps to drag themselves as a way of being mobile. People require these aids so that their lives are made much easier.
With those few words Mr. President, as a country I urge us to pull in the same direction so that we place a lot of importance on health issues so that there will be health care for all especially as we look at the issue of cancer. People need to be taught about it so that they can quickly go and be tested because we hear that four women are dying every day of cancer. It shows that it is now worse than HIV/AIDS. Let us enlighten our people in time because a stitch in time saves nine. We all have experiences of our relatives dying from cancer. We should quickly have examinations done and it should be for free for those that suffer from cancer.
I also read and observed that part of the HIV fund is going to be used for AIDS patients. This should be quickly done so that those who are in the communal lands and urban centres get the required assistance so that more people do not die. Thank you Mr. President for the opportunity that you have given me.
HON. SEN. CHIEF MTSHANE: I move that the debate do now adjourn.
HON. SEN. CHIEF SIANSALI: I second.
Motion put and agreed to.
Debate to resume: Wednesday, 26th July, 2017.
MOTION
FIRST REPORT OF THE THEMATIC COMMITTEE ON HIV AND
AIDS ON HIV AND AIDS IN INSTITUTIONS OF HIGHER
LEARNING IN ZIMBABWE
Seventh Order read: Adjourned debate on motion on the First Report of the Thematic Committee on HIV and AIDS on HIV and AIDS in Institutions of Higher Learning in Zimbabwe.
Question again proposed.
HON. SEN. CHIEF NGUNGUMBANE: Thank you Mr.
President for according me this opportunity to debate on the report by the HIV Thematic Committee on the institutions of higher learning in Zimbabwe. Mr. President, the students that are in these institutions are the future leaders of the society tomorrow. We expect that some of them will become members of Parliament, chiefs, business people and the list is endless. If you look at the scourge of AIDS Mr. President, it is taking away those future leaders. It is robbing us of potential skilled labour that we so desire as a nation.
I would want to thank this Committee for undertaking this trip to various institutions of higher learning because Mr. President, if you read the Journal of the International Aids Society, it indicates that institutions in sub-Sahara Africa of higher learning have become the new HIV/AIDS hotspot. So this Committee was spot-on Mr. President in visiting those institutions to find out the prevalence of HIV among students in tertiary institutions.
One fundamental issue that was raised in the report was that there was no prior education for these students when they came to these institutions and as such, institutions of higher learning did not take the subject matter seriously. It is taught at induction and soon after that it is forgotten. We encourage the relevant authority to ensure that issues of sex are taught at an earlier stage on a serious note, not just to acknowledge that there is HIV/AIDS and end there. You know the society that we live in; our kids have become so innovative. They can now teach us on issues of sex and sexuality when it should be the other way round. So, we should design our curriculum to address the needs of these students Mr. President.
What touched me Mr. President was a recommendation by the SRC from the University of Zimbabwe saying that they have to travel outside the campus for them to access recreational facilities. They were recommending that the UZ should have recreational facilities like bars and so forth. I am of a different opinion Mr. President. I think when we go to school we should not forget our core values. What are we there for? Number one is education. These other things come later but if you find our students prioritising recreational facilities like bars, I am a bit concerned. Those that know UZ very well, if you go some few years back, we had incidences of violence as a result of students who were highly intoxicated at these institutions of higher learning. We encourage that students and universities should take learning as the core value and the other things will follow later Mr. President.
On the issue of campus clinics Mr. President, it is sad to note that most of the clinics that we visited are not fully capacitated. There are shortages of nurses, no doctors and drugs but it is important to note that institutions of higher learning like the UZ, MSU and NUST have taken a significant role in ensuring that the right to health care to these institutions is realised. What is further disappointing is that there is no clear guideline on whose responsibility between the Ministry of Health and the Ministry of Higher Education in the hiring of nurses is.
I would recommend Mr. President, that the hiring of nurses to these institutions should be the responsibility of the Ministry of Health because the Ministry of Higher and Tertiary Education will tell you that it is not their core business to be hiring nurses. The Ministry of Health should ensure that nurses are hired. Furthermore, these institutions of higher learning should have doctors. If you look at the pollution there, for example at MSU, they have over 23 thousand students and there is no doctor. They have to go out and scramble for services with the people out there. I would recommend that the Ministry, as a matter of policy, that these clinics should be manned by full time registered nurses and by doctors. These clinics must be registered also.
Mr. President, I would want to complement NUST for the good work that they are doing. We were informed that NUST through the Department of Allied Biology and Biochemistry has initiated viral load testing on its compass. We would want to complement NUST for leading the way in ensuring that access to health is a reality to everybody because such services, you had to go to private institutions or outside the country to access them. I would also want to thank the same university for rendering DNA testing when we had the Mvuma bus disaster that claimed 31 people. All the people perished and were burnt beyond recognition but this department assisted in identifying the charred remains of those people who perished. We would want to challenge other institutions of higher learning to be innovative and come up with other ways that could assist people with the burden of accessing health services outside the border which is very expensive.
Such innovation Mr. President, would lead to the creation of employment and student attachments. Students are having problems going on attachments because our economy is not ticking and industries are closing down. I will challenge other institutions to industrialise. Students will go to a college or university and they can go there for attachment so that when they leave university, they are a polished product. Mr. President, I think I have said much.
I now come to the recommendations. Some of those, we came across situations where we had volunteers who were peer educators and these are students teaching other students. I think an incentive should be offered to these students so that they encourage and teach other students about HIV and AIDS because with time these students will be burnt out and will leave such good work.
The other problem that we came across is that access to ART is free. However, if you look at these other opportunistic infections that come through with the disease, that treatment is not free. Patients have to pay for those and how many of us can afford to pay? It denies people the access to treatment. Some of those that are on treatment and have these opportunistic infections are bound to stop taking their tablets and are bound to fail to access treatment.
Mr. President, in summary, some of the students are still young. When we talk of sex, it is something meant for the old and mature people. We have enacted a Bill of Rights like what Hon. Sen. Makore has debated upon in his earlier motion. We are saying, we should have rights and they have been there long back, they are still here but I am saying, let us teach as much as we teach these children about rights. Let us teach them to be responsible. Students are encouraged at all cost and given a chance, to delay their sexual debut. Kakubaleki funda uqede uzakuthola kukumelele but if you rush Mr. President – you know some students have spoiled their career because they rushed for the forbidden fruit and forgot their core business. Given a chance Mr. President, I would conscientise the students that they should wait. They will have it abundantly after they have finished their tertiary education. With those few words Mr. President, I would want to thank the mover of this motion, Hon. Sen. Timveos in absentia, and say thank you.
HON. SEN. MASUKU: I move that the debate do now adjourn.
HON. SEN. MOHADI: I second.
Motion put and agreed to.
Debate to resume: Wednesday, 26th July, 2017.
On the motion of HON. SEN. MASUKU, seconded by HON. SEN. MOHADI, the Senate adjourned at Twenty-One Minutes to Five o’clock p.m
PARLIAMENT OF ZIMBABWE
Wednesday, 26th July, 2017
The Senate met at Half-past Two o’clock p.m.
PRAYERS
(THE HON. PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE in the Chair)
ANNOUNCEMENT BY THE HON. PRESIDENT OF THE
SENATE
NON-ADVERSE REPORT RECEIVED FROM THE
PARLIAMENTARY LEGAL COMMITTEE
THE HON. PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE: I wish to inform
the Senate that I have received a Non-adverse Report from the Parliamentary Legal Committee on Statutory Instrument Numbers 281 to 314 published in the Gazzette during the month of June 2017.
MOTION
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE AND ECONOMIC
DEVELOPMENT (HON. CHINAMASA): I move that Order of the
Day, Number 1 on today’s Order Paper be stood over until Orders of the Day, Numbers 2 to 10 have been disposed of.
Motion put and agreed to.
MOTION
STATE OF THE NATION ADDRESS BY HIS EXCELLENCY THE
PRESIDENT
Second Order read: Adjourned debate on motion in reply to the
State of the Nation Address.
Question again proposed.
*HON. SEN. MUMVURI: Thank you Madam President for
giving me an opportunity to debate on the Presidential Address.
Annually, the President when he presents the State of the Nation Address, he will be giving an outlook of the country as well as his expectations in terms of the work that has to be done by the National
Assembly and the Senate. The outlook that was given when he spoke is that now we even see the fruits of what he talked about because he said that there would be programmes such as the Command Agriculture in order to increase and also develop our country through agriculture.
As you know, Madam President, yesterday I tabled a report in support of what the President said in terms of the status quo of the country and where we are going and I want to commend the President and this is also supported by the 10 Point Plan. From what he said, all these have already been successful.
Other things that he mentioned in his address were that the state of our roads should be addressed. We know the Beitbridge and Chirundu project is on the cards and should commence soon. Just yesterday, we saw the Minister, Hon. Gumbo in Mashonaland East officiating at the opening of the Mutoko road which was highly commended by the Hon. Member, Hon. Chinomona. So, there are so many things that are taking place. From the time that he talked about road rehabilitation in Mashonaland Central, we have seen the opening of so many roads. So, that is what he envisioned should happen in the country and that is what happened. So that is what we are supposed to emulate. Once we emulate such things, our nation will be able to develop.
A lot of things were said by my fellow Senators, but for the policies that he said would work out, we want to thank the President because it was a success. We want to thank the President because he had foresight and is committed to ensuring that the country develops. We also see that tourism has also increased and is progressing. I am sure you noticed that in Chiadzwa, there are no individual companies anymore. There is now one company which has ensured that peace prevails in the area.
On the issue of border areas, yesterday we had a workshop with ZIMRA which reflected that we are on course. Also, revenue inflows have increased because of the policies and measures that have been taken by ZIMRA to curb corruption. They mentioned about the cargo tracking system which is also assisting to curb corruption. So, that is something that we need to work together and ensure that we support.
It starts with you, with me, with all of us in order to ensure implementation of these policies that were mentioned by the President so that our nation develops. Thank you for this opportunity that you have given me to show that the fruits of his speech have come to fruition.
HON. SEN. CHIPANGA: Madam President, I move that the debate do now adjourn.
THE HON. PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE: Order. Hon. Chipanga, I am sure the ZANU PF Senate Whip had a discussion with you about leaving this motion on the Order Paper. The thing is, we have written, we have pronounced in this House, begging Ministers to come and respond to our motions. So far, it looks like it is not going to happen. We tried to explain to the Hon. Ministers that it is part of their duties to come and respond to their duties raised through motions in this House. They have not bothered to do so. Maybe you were not prepared to close it today, but please be prepared...
HON. SEN. CHIPANGA: Madam President, I am ready. It is only that ndandarasika.
THE HON. PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE: It is only Hon.
Sen. Mumvuri who side-tracked you.
*HON. SEN. CHIPANGA: In fact, Madam President, it is Sen. Mumvuri who asked me not to wind up the motion yesterday. Sorry, I had missed the procedure.
In winding up my motion, I want to thank all those who managed to contribute to this very important motion and these are: Sen.
Mkhwebu, Sen. Mavhunga, Sen. Machingaifa, Sen. Goto, Sen.
Manyeruke, Sen. Bhebe, Sen. Khumalo, Sen. Masuku, Sen. Buka, Sen.
Matiirira, Sen. Chief Mtshane, Sen. Mashavakure, Sen. Mugabe and Sen. Mumvuri.
Madam President, in thanking these Hon. Members who managed to contribute to this very important motion, I wish to indicate that the problem as I have seen in the past, is that while it is a fact that this aonce in a year occasion: an occasion when the head of the Executive comes down to interact and share his thoughts with Members of the
Legislature. What seems to happen is that after the President’s Speech, there is no reference; there is nowhere Members of the Senate can go and read the speech.
My appeal therefore, Madam President, is that in future on this particular occasion. We should have copies of the Hansard deposited in our pigeon holes so that Members can then afford to debate meaningfully because I think it is expecting too much, Madam
President, for anyone to expect that – the President made his Speech in December, 2016 anyone can still remember what the President said then and be able to contribute meaningfully, I think that is expecting too much.
I am therefore, appealing Madam President, through you to appeal to the officials that in future, we have copies of the Hansard deposited in our pigeon holes so that we can always refer to the President’s Speech.
With those words, I would like to thank once again those who contributed on this motion. I therefore move that the motion be adopted.
I thank you.
Motion that this House conveys its profound gratitude to His Excellency, the President Cde. R. G. Mugabe for addressing a joint sitting of Parliament on the State of the Nation.
Expresses its commitment to and support for the views contained in his address; and that a respectful address be presented to His Excellency the President, informing him of the sentiments of the House, put and agreed to.
MOTION
FIRST REPORT OF THE THEMATIC COMMITTEE ON PEACE
AND SECURITY ON THE PREPAREDNESS OF THE GRAIN
MARKETING BOARD ON HANDLING THE 2016/2017 CROP
DELIVERIES AND THE SUCCESS OF THE COMMAND
AGRICULTURE PROGRAMME
Third Order read: Adjourned debate on motion on the First Report of the Thematic Committee on Peace and Security on the Preparedness of the Grain Marketing Board to handle the 2016/2017 Crop Deliveries and the Success of the Command Agriculture Programme.
Question again proposed.
+HON. SEN. NCUBE: Thank you Madam President for the
opportunity you have given me. I rise to add my voice on the report that was tabled in this House by the Chairperson on Peace and Security Hon. Sen. Mumvuri and seconded by Hon. Sen. Makone. I am just adding my voice as a member of the Committee, for everything was articulated in the report.
In all the areas that we went to, we received very positive reports on Command Agriculture. Zimbabwe is a country that is rich, especially in the farm products. However, I realised that when we were going round the country, one thing that disturbed me was the people who were saying they were from the President’s Office, stating that they were State security agents. Among them were soldiers as part of security.
I wondered why they were going with us yet we were touring the GMBs, we found them in all the GMB station, what does that have to do with security. I did not see a reason for the officers from the President’s office to be in those stations. When we went to Lions’ Den, I realised that the people we were interacting with were saying GMB wants farmers to come with maize at 12.5% moisture. So, most farmers were complaining that most of the times their maize is rejected at GMB because of the moisture content, for example if it is at 13% and above. Some of the farmers do not have the machines to measure the quantity of moisture in their maize. Therefore, if it is rejected and they are supposed to take it back home at their own expense. We realised that some farmers would sell their maize at a cheaper price to other people outside GMB. They will do this so that they do not lose out. It was also highlighted that Command Agriculture, inasmuch as it is a good project, there are other areas where people need to see improvement, like the issue of inputs.
They were of the view that there is need to take into consideration that type of soils differ, hence it requires certain type of seeds. Most of these farmers indicated that the type of seeds they are given at times would not be the required seeds for their soil type. They were also complaining that they are just given seeds without consulting them what type of seeds they require in their areas. They were also not happy with the timing of seeds and fertiliser distribution because it usually come very late and they have to walk long distances to get those inputs.
They were of the opinion that if only inputs can be distributed according to districts so that people will be closer to their homes. They face challenges of accommodation whilst they are waiting for inputs to be delivered. Some even indicated that they would stay for three to four days without receiving the inputs. They felt that, this year if they are going to be given farming inputs, including fuel, the points they have raised should be taken into consideration.
Another point they highlighted is that they prefer to receive the inputs during September when they are preparing for the next farming season, waiting for the rain. Those who do irrigation can start soon after receiving the inputs. They also indicated that they do not have enough combine harvester machines. Therefore, it takes long, for example in a province, for all farmers to do the harvesting of their yield on time is not possible. By the time they finish harvesting, they will be behind time. They were asking if the Committee could assist whether by talking to
the Minister of Agriculture, Mechanisation and Irrigation Development to avail more combine harvester machines to help them harvest their yield on time so that they can prepare for the next season. With these few words, I thank you Madam.
*HON. SEN. MURWIRA: Thank you Madam President for
giving me the opportunity to contribute to the debate before the House concerning the report tabled by Senator Mumvuri from the Thematic Committee on Peace and Security.
I would like to thank the Government for the Command Agriculture Project. For those who spearheaded the project, I want to commend them for a job well done because they assisted us a lot. I also want to appreciate the good yield that we had in Zimbabwe. It is actually shocking if you go to your field to see the maize that is in our fields today. Some people are very short sighted with regards to this project and are not optimistic. They are like a doubting Thomas, but today you find that they are the ones who are registering first after realizing that others were able to get good yields.
In terms of food security, I think we have done well as a country and we are now even able to export to other countries that have not experienced such high yields. For those who are outside the country, it was difficult for them, they could not sleep well because they did not know what their family would eat back home. Now, the situation has changed. When Command Agriculture was introduced, it was not discriminatory. It did not look at tribe or political party; so, I want to thank the people of Zimbabwe because most of them engaged in farming and grew a lot of maize.
I would like to encourage those in our communities that once we hear of new policies and projects, we should accept these and gladly implement them. The Command Agriculture project will be extended for the next two to three years and my request is that the Government should increase the period to about five years.
I am proud of our nation Zimbabwe. We are hard working people, full of energy. I request that Government continues to assist us by giving us loans which we will be able to repay once we harvest our crops. I want to thank the Committee for the recommendations. One of the recommendations was that inputs should be availed on time. If we look at the initiation of this whole project, the inputs were quite a challenge but this is a learning curve. This did not affect the yield. I would say the success was 99%. We also request that there be driers at the GMB depots to ensure that the moisture content required is reached.
We have heard about the corruption that is taking place with the middlemen at GMB who want to buy maize. They end up selling it to the GMB after meeting the required moisture content. Our request to GMB is that if one takes their maize to GMB, at least the money should be available in two weeks so that people have faith in the Government and do not end up selling their maize at next to nothing; for example, $2. The Government should ensure that the maize is bought at the correct price. That way, we will get more wealth and we will be able to buy Mercedes Benz cars because we are hard working.
We want to thank the Committee for the good work that they did and we urge them to continue going out on investigations and bring us more information. Today I heard that the Mashonaland West Silos are already full and they are looking for other silos in which to store grain. If you have not yet joined the Command Agriculture project, I urge you to join the rest of us. Thank you for the time you have availed to me Madam President.
+HON. SEN. MASUKU: Thank you Madam President for giving me this opportunity for me to add my voice, seconding the report that was brought by Hon. Sen. Mumvuri as the Chairperson of the Thematic Committee on Peace and Security and the seconder.
The report that was tabled touches on Command Agriculture and also on the preparedness of GMB in receiving all the grains harvested under the Command Agriculture. I will first touch on GMB. I will be happy if the Minister would highlight if all GMB silos have been prepared for the bumper harvest within the country at the moment for that the grain to be kept properly preserved. This is something we are happy about because the Minister highlighted that most of the time we might have a good harvest and fail to have enough silos to store our grains.
There is need for all the provinces or districts where there is GMB to come up with places where they can dry all the maize for example, Antelope, which is under ARDA – they built different driers to remove the moisture within the maize before it is sent to GMB. The driers assist in keeping our grain dry.
Through this Command Agriculture, we managed to revive all our irrigation schemes. What makes me happy is that even in all the Provinces that are usually known to be drought stricken and there is no farming activity; because of the revival of the Command Agriculture, they also harvested. I want to applaud Matabeleland South and all the farmers; I have been told that ARDA Antelope is the one that produced a better harvest in the province.
Whilst I want to touch on the irrigation farms, I also want to urge that we should try and improve on the small farms, especially when we try to revive such small farms, we will be able to revive them and they will be able to come up with better harvests. I know that on the issue of Command Agriculture when it was started, it did not come out properly because people thought it will not come out properly for they were few things that needed to be finalised. After a successful harvest that we had, I know when we do it for the second time, we will get better harvest than we have now. What I would like to say Madam President is that when we debate such issues, the relevant Ministers must be available so that they can hear what the people are saying and what they want them to improve.
My wish Madam President is that if only we can try and take into consideration everything that has been highlighted, especially by the members of the Committee in their reports of what the farmers said. We also want the Government to try and improve by availing more tractors and combine harvesters. Long back, DDF used to assist by availing the tractors; it is another project that is supposed to revive all the DDF projects especially on availing tractors. This will assist more farmers when doing their farming. The second thing Madam President is that, yes, we might have the tractors but we are hearing that for example in Mashonaland West because they had a better harvest as compared to other provinces they must be availed with more harvesters.
It is therefore, encouraged that when we bring centre pivots or combine harvesters, we realise that it will create balance especially for the farmers to do their harvests. It is of priority Madam President to make sure all the combine harvesters that are used are in good working order. Yes, the Minister highlighted that they are trying to repair most of the combine harvesters but there is need to increase the number so that farmers do not leave their products in the farms because of lack of enough combine harvesters.
Maize is a major crop in Zimbabwe that is cultivated. It is therefore encouraged that as a country, all Zimbabweans should be able to get proper nutrition especially food types that assist in fighting diseases. I know in this Senate, there is Hon. Sen. Khumalo who always emphasises the issue of nutrition. Under Command Agriculture Madam
President, there is need that in our next project, we should avail the
seeds for such farm products to all our farmers so that in as much as we plough maize that will bring foreign currency, we export it. We must also try to grow different crops that are of nutritional value. It is therefore, encouraged that all farmers be taught that there should be balance in whatever that they are ploughing in their fields.
Madam President, another area of interest on Command
Agriculture is on the issues of animals, for example, cows, goats, et cetera. One thing that is of interest is that I heard again the Minister saying they are encouraging women to participate in this project especially of the cows and goats. I hope that the ministry has made adequate preparations and research in issues of Command Agriculture on crops and animals. We know Madam President that they are different places where we can sell our produce; it might be in other provinces within our country or in other countries. It is therefore important that women and youths get involved in the second phase of command
agriculture.
Madam President, I would like to highlight that Zimbabwe as a nation has attained 37 years of independence. We have been exporting food from other countries. I want to extend my gratitude to the
President of the country and his Vice Presidents for bringing this
Command Agriculture Programme. What I will then ask Madam President is I take into recognition one of the Vice President who is responsible for the command agriculture to convey this message on how thankful we are as Zimbabweans. After 37 years of independence, Zimbabwe is now able to be a bread basket of Africa once again and we are now totally independent. You cannot say you are independent when you are still importing food from other countries; therefore, your independency is in question.
This year, I believe that Zimbabwe as a nation, is going to enjoy freedom for there is no one who is going to be affected by drought. Secondly, our foreign currency inflows will increase because of the command agriculture. Some of us cannot see any good out of it but what I know is that in everything that is being done, there is no one that is going to criticise it negatively because I know Command Agriculture has brought a positive change in Zimbabwe. With this Madam President, I want to thank the Committee that toured the GMB silos and it is my wish that they continue with their tours so that they can identify even the needs that are there in other different places and will be presented in this Senate so that the needs of farmers and the country will be met in all the provinces. With these few words Madam President, I want to thank you for giving me this opportunity.
*HON. SEN. MACHINGAIFA: Thank you Madam President for
giving me this opportunity to add my voice in support of the report that was tabled in this august House by the Hon. Chairperson of Thematic Committee on Peace and Security Hon. Sen. Mumvuri, seconded by Hon. Sen. Makone. I feel proud to be associated with such an issue that if I were not to comment about it my life will be empty and God will not bless me.
Madam President, we travelled with the Committee and wherever we went, we were proud about the achievements of the Command Agriculture Project. It was plaudits all over as people were smiling that we had a bumper harvest. We thank those that led the project. They prayed to God and God heard their prayers, sufficient rains were received and the country had a bumper harvest.
We were quite happy to observe that during our visits the youth in Banket at Nyathi Mhenyu Farm bid farewell to his colleagues saying he was leaving Harare going to the farm. Upon arrival at the farm, he tilled the land and we were quite proud of his achievement. He had a maize field. We went into the shelled maize and our legs went knee-deep. Zimbabwe has been blessed by God. We had experienced several years of drought. Our leaders were in deep thought and after that they came up with such a programme.
When I look at such a programme Madam President, I liken it to the years in Rhodesia when white farmers were given farms and given loans that they would repay after five years. This is what God has done to us through our leadership and it has been successful. There are those that will speak ill of the programme but we do not know which country they live in.
As we went around, the issue of moisture stress for the maize that was being received at the GMB is because they did not properly demarcate the land where wheat was going to be ploughed while the maize would dry on the land. The problem is that they have very small pieces of land to till. As time goes on, people should be asked to plough specific hectares for maize and another for wheat to give the farmers sufficient time for the maize to dry up. The GMB acceded that the maize could be dried using driers but they were discouraging that because the maize would not be pure white and that white quality is better. Proper demarcation of land would remove the need for driers.
We did not have combine harvesters to harvest the maize but we have learnt that we need to purchase them for future use. Those that contribute to funeral assurances or burial societies only appreciate the use of such services when they have bereavement in the family. The same should happen when we buy such machinery and use it for such bumper harvests. I am grateful to the Committee that toured the country. I believe the Vice President Hon. Mnangagwa is happy because of the success of such a programme. I thank you.
HON. SEN. MUMVURI: I move that the debate do now adjourn.
HON. SEN. CHIPANGA: I second.
Motion put and agreed to.
Debate to resume: Thursday, 27th July, 2017.
MOTION
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
THE MINISTER OF DEFENCE (HON. DR. SEKERAMAYI):
Madam President, I move that we go back to Order of the Day No. 1 on today’s Order Paper.
Motion put and agreed to.
SECOND READING
CONSTITUTION OF ZIMBABWE AMENDMENT (NO. 1)
BILL [H. B. 1, 2017]
THE VICE PRESIDENT AND MINISTER OF JUSTICE, LEGAL AND PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (HON. E. D.
MNANGAGWA): Madam President, I rise to present the Second
Reading of the Constitution of Zimbabwe Amendment (No. 1) Bill (H.B.
1, 2017). The present Constitution of Zimbabwe became fully operational on the 22nd of August, 2013 having been assented to on the
22nd May, 2013 by the President as the Constitution of Zimbabwe Amendment (No. 20) Act and published on that same day.
Although sections 171 (1) paragraph (b) and 174 of the
Constitution clearly imply that the Labour Court and the Administrative Court, are courts subordinate to the High Court despite their members also being called judges. This implication appears to be at odds with paragraph 18 sub-paragraph (6) of the sixth schedule, which provides that every person who will immediately before the effective date presided over the Labour Court or the Administrative Court becomes a judge of the Labour Court or the Administrative Court as the case maybe. On the same conditions of service as apply on that date to judges of the High Court, without affecting the quality of basic conditions of services, of services between, on the one hand, judges of the High Court and on the other judges of the Labour and Administrative Courts. There is a need to make explicit subordination of these last mentioned courts to the High Court by an appropriate amendment to Section 174 of the Constitution.
This Bill, the Constitution of Zimbabwe Amendment No. 1Bill
2017, will amend the Constitution by substituting Section 180 of the Constitution that provides for the appointment of judges. The appointment procedure for all judges will remain as it is in the
Constitution before the amendment except for the Chief Justice, the Deputy Chief Justice and the Judge President of the High Court. It is proposed by this amendment that these three offices will be appointed by the President after consultation with the Judicial Service Commission.
Under the old Constitution, the appointment of all judges was done in this way except for the Judge President who was appointed by the Chief Justice. If the appointment of the Chief Justice or Judge President of the High Court is not consistent with any recommendation made by the Judicial Service Commission, made during the course of the consultations, then the President will have to inform the Senate of that fact as soon as possible. Consequent to the foregoing amendment, paragraph 18 (3) of the Sixth Schedule to the Constitution, titled
‘Commencement of this Constitution, Transitional Provisions and
Servings’ is also amended by excluding vacancies in the office of the
Chief Justice, Deputy Chief Justice from the scope of that provision.
Madam President, I wish to also explain what has prompted the Executive to move for the amendment of the Constitution with regard to the procedure of appointing judges. The current Constitution requires that all judges, Administrative Court judges, Labour Court judges, High
Court judges, Supreme Court judges, Constitutional Court judges, the Chief Justice, the Deputy Chief Justice and the Judge President, be appointed through a procedure of interviews by the Judicial Service Commission. This means that if there are vacancies in any of these courts, for instance, the lower courts, the Labour Courts, Administrative Court and the High Court as the court of first instance, if there are vacancies, then those vacancies are advertised in the newspapers for those who want to become judges to apply. When they apply, the Judicial Service Commission will conduct interviews to ascertain those applicants as to who is more suitable to take the post.
The first exercise is to find out whether the applicants do qualify in terms of legal qualifications to be appointed a judge. The second is to look into both the probity, integrity and qualification of the individual. The panel of judges who do the interviews are the Chief Justice, who is the Chairperson of the Judicial Service Commission, accompanied by the Deputy Chief Justice, accompanied by the Judge President, accompanied by the Supreme Court Judge, who is the Secretary to the Judicial Service Commission and accompanied by another judge from the High Court and two or so others from the private sector. So, you can see Hon. Senators that the panel that interviews those who apply to become judges are the most senior judges of our judiciary, headed by the Chief Justice.
This amendment does not amend that procedure in relation to the appointment of judges. The appointment of judges will continue to fall under the provisions as they stand. That is to say, the Judicial Service Commission will continue to advertise and those who wish to become judges will have to apply for interview, submitting their curriculum vitae showing that they qualify to be judges and subject themselves to an interview. The second point is that for every single post of a judge, at least two names must be submitted on that single post to the President.
If there are six vacancies, you multiply six by three and you will require 18 names to be presented to the President in order for the President to select six names out of the 18. When you are already a judge and there are vacancies in the Supreme Court, those judges in the High Court or Labour Courts who wish to be promoted to the Supreme Court have to apply and subject themselves to the interview and assessment by the
Judicial Service Commission for appointment to the Supreme Court.
The next superior court is that of the Constitutional Court. Again,
if there are vacancies in the Constitutional Court, judges of the Supreme Court, judges of the High Court and judges of the Labour Court who feel they would want to apply, have the freedom to apply and be assessed for suitability to be judges of the Constitutional Court. That is not being changed; that remains. What we are changing is the filling of the post of the Chief Justice, Deputy Chief Justice and Judge President only. Why? The reason is that the State is constituted of three pillars. These three pillars are the Executive, the Legislature and the Judiciary. These three pillars are equal. The Judiciary is headed by the Chief Justice, the
Parliament which is the Legislature is headed by the Speaker. The Executive is headed by the President. However, there are differences whereas in the Legislature, it is composed of people elected by the electorate into the Legislature - yourselves.
So the majority party in the Legislature elects the Speaker of the House which is a democratic process. With regard to the Executive, the majority of the party which has won elections constitutes or forms the
Executive led by their leader who becomes the President. Because these three pillars are equal, you must have an authority that is above the three pillars and this authority is that of the Head of State. When we address the President, he is Head of State, which means he is the head of three pillars; the Executive, the Judiciary and Legislature, but when he goes to chair the Executive, he is President not Head of State. So, he is the only person qualified to appoint head of other pillars because he is above the pillars, because he is Head of State. We therefore are amending the provision in the Constitution, where members of the Judicial Services
Commission have been allocated this function of Head of State by the Constitution inappropriately in terms of procedure to have the head of Judiciary.
However, the provision that there is need to check on the probity, integrity and qualifications of the particular person to be appointed Chief Justice, the Act requires that the President shall submit three nominees to the Judicial Services Commission for it to interrogate three things on the particular person and the three names for each post; that is, if it is Chief Justice, the President is required to submit three names to the Judicial Service Commission to look into the qualification of the nominee, the integrity of the nominee and the probity of the nominee. That panel would then prioritise in terms of their assessment the three individuals and make recommendations to the President. This is what is constituted by the provision of the President consulting the Judicial Service Commission.
The other improper procedure was the current provision that would require that where a Chief Justice is required and a Chief Justice is retiring generally, the most senior judges in the Judiciary are the ones who apply to become Chief Justice. You would not have somebody who is a Labour Court judge, a magistrate or any other lawyer in the street applying to be Chief Justice; they are allowed, but they know they cannot succeed. But the most appropriate ones are the ones who are at the top, at the apex of the judicial structure. These are the Supreme Court Judges and Constitutional Judges.
Now, the Judicial Service Commission is composed of the most senior judges and they are the ones who apply to be Chief Justice. Our late Chief Justice Chidyausiku was the Chief Justice who was retiring and was Chairman of the Judicial Service Commission. As he was retiring, he remained to chair the interviews to select his successor.
Now, his Deputy who was his deputy as Chairperson of the
Judicial Service Commission Justice Malaba, Supreme Court Judge
Justice Makarau, Judge President of the High Court and Justice Chiweshe applied to be Chief Justice. All these sit as assessors as they interview people. So, they had to stand aside and allow junior persons from the private sector to interview them to become Chief Justice. This is most inappropriate.
So, this is what we are removing so that the head of the Judiciary should come from the nominee of the President, who is the Head of State. This is the practice world over. In the United Kingdom, the
Queen, in consultation with the Prime Minister, appoints the Chief
Justice of the United Kingdom. Even Trump appoints the Judge in America. The same everywhere, you can ask Zambia, Malawi - wherever you can ask. That is what happens.
So, this anomaly had crept into our Constitution and this is what we are correcting, although we are preserving the earlier element I have mentioned where the other judges have to go through the process of being interviewed and recommendations made to the President for appointment. So, I appeal to Hon. Members of the Senate to support the amendment of this Constitution in order that we should have the President appoint the Chief Justice for the Republic of Zimbabwe as Head of State.
With regard to Parliament, I have already mentioned Parliament is as a result of elections. Members of Parliament are from the electorate, they are elected by the people and so they should be able to exercise the electoral legitimacy and mandate to have their head. The Executive is as a result of an election and the winning party have their head of party sworn in as President. He becomes President of the Executive.
Madam President, I believe that I have done some justice to explain the implication, philosophy and background to this amendment.
I thank you.
+HON. SEN. MLOTSHWA: I thank you Madam President. We
take into recognition the issue that is being brought into this House by the Vice President of the State on the issue of amending the
Constitution. Before we even get into the fifth year of the Constitution’s existence, already we want to amend our Constitution on the issue of appointment of Judges being appointed by the Head of the State.
Madam President, this Constitution was voted for through a referendum by the people of Zimbabwe - I know that the Vice President can hear me – therefore, for us to amend it with so many amendments before we can even implement it is not proper. While Section 180 was supposed to pass through so many different people, already their powers are taken from them so that they can also participate in appointing the judges and it is only the President who can appoint those people.
In my own view, Madam President, those who are in power especially the President or the Executive want to take everyone who has anything to do with law to be under them so that when they are now working, they are the ones who will be directing them on what to do and they will not have any independence on how they can implement their duties based on the qualifications that they have. Therefore, for the President to be the one who appoints the Judges, in my own view, I do not think it is proper. The Vice President has highlighted that in other countries they do that, but my argument is why we not do our own thing. Most of the times we have heard you Vice President saying we do not want to copy what other countries do, why is it that in this matter we want to copy other countries? Why can we not do something we want? This is something that was voted for by the people and we want to follow what other countries do.
Madam President, if these Judges are going to be appointed by the
President, there is a danger that if they do not do according to what the President wants; he is going to tell them that I amended the Constitution in order to accommodate you. Therefore, you have to do what I want as the President. This is what we are against because there is no democracy there. They will not be able to implement what they would have learnt in school because they will work under dictation.
The last time we checked the Constitution, it has not been implemented and in less than five years you want to change it. If only we could push with the same Constitution for a number of years; as of now, we have not seen anything wrong with the Constitution, so why is it being amended. Why should we want to put all the powers under one person? We know that this Bill is going to be passed whether we are there or not but we are just giving you our views so that you know that you are passing it because of your majority muscle.
If there is no one who is cautioning you, highlighting the negative side of what you want to implement, it will be like we have the same thinking. We want to show you that we are not happy with the amendments that are being done on the Constitution. This is not respecting the views of the people, especially what they said when we were coming up with this Constitution. We are not happy that the powers of appointing such people are delegated to one person. With these few words, I thank you.
*HON. SEN. KOMICHI: Thank you Madam President for
affording me this opportunity to debate on the Bill that was brought by the Vice President. I will begin with a question: is it that the nation is not happy with the appointment of Justice Malaba? Is Justice Malaba a wrong candidate? He went through a process that is in the Constitution, which was voted by over 3 million people in the past few years. That process gave the provision of how the Chief Justice should be appointed.
Out of that process, the President then appointed Chief Justice
Malaba. The process was not done outside the powers of the President. He appointed finally. This was the process that was agreed upon by the people of Zimbabwe after ensuring that that is the process that will give us a candidate based on merit. What they were guarding against was a Chief Justice who is appointed on political lines. It is like taking me, Komichi to be the Chief Justice. The people of Zimbabwe want a Chief
Justice who is appointed through the process that is in the Constitution.
If the team was composed of junior people to interview the Chief
Justice, then it is not anyone’s fault because we have judges with more experience that could have done the process. Furthermore, it worries us as the people of Zimbabwe - after more than 35 years, we have come up with our own Constitution which we widely consulted the people of
Zimbabwe and adopted it to govern us, but in less than two years, that Constitution is being amended. It means the Constitution of Zimbabwe is now under serious threat because where the Executive sees as a hitch, they amend the Constitution. It means we end up going back to the Constitution that we had 10 years ago; a Constitution that we discarded a few years back.
This Constitution came out as a result of serious compromise as it involved all the political parties and we agreed that it was a document that could govern us as a nation. Now, we are here amending the
Constitution. We have heard what you said Vice President that in
Parliament people were elected and we elected the President of the Senate and the Speaker of the National Assembly. It is not convincing at all because the other way that we could have used was the one proposed by the people of Zimbabwe that of conducting public interviews, especially for people with such high positions in the judiciary.
Are you aware of the fact that there are people who are arrested because of politics and they are convicted for no reason because the judges and the magistrates are politically appointed? There are other countries that have improved Vice President, who have abandoned this way of doing things and have adopted the interview way. We should emulate such countries instead of copying those who are backward and undemocratic. That is against the ethics of law…
HON. SEN. MANYERUKE: On a point of order. Hon. Sen.
Komichi is referring to all of us here as dull people.
*THE HON. PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE: Thank you very
much Hon. Sen. Manyeruke. I do not think he was referring to a specific person or party. He said it in general.
*HON. SEN. KOMICHI: I know that if you denigrate the
President in this country you will be arrested.
*THE HON. PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE: If he had used
unparliamentary words, we would have made a ruling.
*HON. SEN. KOMICHI: If you denigrate the President in this country you will be arrested using POSA but if I am to denigrate the Vice President, Hon. Mnangagwa, he is my uncle. It is not an issue.
*THE HON. PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE: We do not have
uncles or fathers in this House. If you denigrate any of the Hon.
Senators, you will be against the rules.
*HON. SEN. KOMICHI: Thank you Madam President. Hon. Vice President, we heard what you said, but we are not in agreement because this is being done for political reasons. We wanted merit to be used. As I stand here, I am opposed to this amendment and I do not want to be part and parcel of it, because it violates the wishes and hopes of the people of Zimbabwe. I thank you Madam President.
+HON. SEN. KHUMALO: Thank you Madam President for
giving me the opportunity to add a few words on the motion that was tabled in this House.
My own thinking and understanding is that we are changing. We have to amend something that already exists in this Constitution; a Constitution that was passed just a few years back. When we were trying to come up with it, people were asked a lot of questions and they passed it. Before we have had two terms of the Constitution being implemented, already we want to amend what people said they want. I know that there were lawyers who were involved in the crafting of this Constitution. Why did we not highlight it when we were crafting this Constitution? We should also have highlighted that what the people said when we were coming up with the Constitution was not correct. It is not alright that after people have indicated satisfaction that they have come up with their own Constitution, we already want to amend it saying that we are not in agreement with what they want.
I am not in agreement with this amendment because all of us were part and parcel and we agreed to pass this Constitution. Why did we agree and today we want to turn tables and say we are not in agreement with this? Yes, you are saying that all other countries are practicing this.
From what the Vice President has said, in one of the countries, they have been changing one of their senior officials more than four times. Therefore, as a country, Zimbabweans are not in agreement with that and I know that they would not want that when someone has been elected by someone, most of the time you will not do what is correct for the fear of being removed from power. We are not like other people - like in Europe who can stand for their country. Most of the time, Zimbabweans would rather be promised to be bribed rather than standing up for your right and truth. Most of the time people want to stand up for those who would have elected them.
I know that this Bill is going to be passed but as Zimbabweans, we have realised that we cannot stand up for the truth because we do not want to be removed from power. All that is needed is to impress the person who would have voted them into power. With these words, I am not in agreement with this Bill. Most of the time, the people who are elected into power, especially if they are appointed by someone; will not resign. In countries like Europe, these people resign rather than standing for something that is not right. I thank you.
HON. SEN. B. SIBANDA: May I take this opportunity to make a few points. The first point I want to make is that the Vice President can correct me if I am wrong; nowhere in our Constitution do we find an explicit reference on the three arms of Government where a member of the other arm is made to look senior to the other two pillars. I am therefore perturbed when the Vice President says that the President who is normally addressed in three titles; Head of State, President and Commander is suddenly senior to the other two arms inspite of being a member of the one arm. If I can be enlightened if constitutionally, that is explicit. From my legal understanding, I do not see it explicitly.
Secondly, I would like us all to appreciate that when you invert any management system, something is wrong. When I am saying invert, when the President gives a number of judges a number of people to interview, then that is a definite pointer that these are the people you must come up with. It is different from asking your compatriots or other people you work with to independently look at a group of persons from whatever polity and say to them; come up with the best candidate. The point has been made. It is not common in Africa for anybody to disobey the President. Therefore, the pointers are already there and the President being a political animal, the pointers are political.
We have senior retired judges and some of them extremely respected, whose knowledge is sought extensively in SADC. I would expect that where Zimbabwe thinks that certain people are under qualified to interview somebody who is going to be their senior, there is a lot of resource. It is abundant. Other countries are crying for it. They are sourcing from here. Why do we not use our own? The Vice President has indicated that a number of countries are using the current amendment system which is being proposed. One of them, of course, he referred to the United Kingdom where I think is a monarchy system – we understand how monarchs work.
Secondly, there is reference to Trump. I would, on a lighter note, say that that example does not appeal to me. I personally feel that Zimbabwe should be progressing towards a more democratic political dispensation and it is my submission that the action we are taking in this instance is regressive in terms of the quality of democracy we want to offer our people. The point has been made that the Constitution has not been tested. We have not been given empirical examples of where the Constitution has failed. I believe that a Constitution is a very important document. It is a document which you only tamper with when you see that certain tenets are being handled negatively. If that does not obtain, I am left with questions, why, why, why? I actually, as a citizen of this nation, have looked at the current process with a lot of respect. I saw it as hybrid, I do not think that I would qualify what we are proposing here as a hybrid, I am not sure what the opposite of hybrid is. I would not qualify it as hybrid.
Finally Madam President, others have made the point that this may not be reversible, this is a determined effort in some direction. We have seen certain determined efforts in certain directions and I suspect that those at a later stage, people have regretted taking certain steps. If they had been a possibility that this could be changed, I would have persuaded people to re-look and I still persuade people in spite of a certainty that persuasion may not be accepted. I still persuade people to relook at our decision. I believe that if we had subjected the entirety of our Constitution to a Referendum, I would not see this proposal surviving a day. I thank you Madam President.
*HON. SEN. MAVHUNGA: Thank you Madam President for
affording me the chance to encourage this august Senate to accept the amendments brought by the Vice President. I want to truly say that even if there were consultations during COPAC, there is a section in the Constitution that allows an amendment. So, it is a foregone conclusion that it is given that the Constitution shall be amended and the public of Zimbabwe are aware of that.
Even today, if I buy a new dress and has a hole, I should put a patch. It is common cause that amendments should be done as well as patching. The time frame is irrelevant. This view that the leader of the judiciary services, the Chief Justice, the Deputy Chief Justice and the Judge President of the High Court should not be appointed by the President but instead interviewed by their juniors which was an embarrassment. I believe the Vice President has got a good proposition. The people that are going to be appointed to those three positions are going to be among the most senior judges who are already in the system. There would not be other outsiders that are going to be brought into these positions. In the Judiciary Commission, they have names that are given to them and they look into issues of integrity and qualifications. I am quite happy with this amendment, in fact certain countries are doing this and that is international best practice which we have always aspired to achieve. We should go ahead with this amendment. So, Hon. Senators, let us not waste a lot of time. Having made this point, I thank you.
*HON. SEN. CHIPANGA: Thank you Madam President.
Firstly, I would want to thank the Vice President who has brought this
Bill which is an amendment to the Constitution. Firstly, Madam
President, we are all aware that when this Constitution was drafted, which is now being amendment inside 5 years, this was a compromised document. There are certain sections if you were to closely examine it, there are sections that are going to run for five to ten years and this is the only country in the whole world where you have certain sections in the Constitution for five or so years. So, the drafters were aware that this was a temporary position whilst we review to see if it was workable or not.
It does not come as a surprise that the Leader of the House who is also the Hon. Vice President has come here with this amendment because it has given us problems. One person once described our Constitution as cutting and pasting. There were a lot of disagreements instead of agreements, hence some of these sections were left to go as they were but the time is now that we are now settled and we now have to review what is workable or not. The problem that I foresee Madam President – correct me if I am wrong, we are all aware that the world over, even some democratic countries like President Trump who is said to be unpopular, there is no country where if they want to appoint a judge, they should pick men and women from the streets and say these are the judges. It is known that of the three that are there as we are looking at the drafting of the Constitution, they are three pillars. So, the three will be appointed from within the Judiciary. Because they were certain people that did not like certain individuals, hence they decided to say the judges should elect their own. The world over, the President appoints the judges. We are the only exception because that was addressed by certain individuals. There is no wisdom Madam President. If we were to look for a headmaster, you look for a headmaster among the junior teachers and the temporary teachers and that the teachers will have to see who the headmaster will be, that is no democracy.
There is also another school of thought Madam President that the people said this is the Constitution that they wanted. The truth of the matter is we are the people. We have realised that we were lost and that it did not work properly.
Yes, Justice Malaba was appointed Chief Justice and everyone, the Ministers and President saw that he was the most suitable candidate. No one is questioning the appointment of Justice Malaba in the entire country. We observed that we managed the situation on his appointment. We want transparency. We do not want people to groom their own successors in the judiciary. This is the issue that we need to address.
Others say we must be unique and different from other countries. Yesterday you said you were as educated and talked of international best practice in this august House. Now, you have turned the tables and now say you want to be different from others. What is wrong with international best practice? You should be consistent in the laws that we are passing. We should be aware that the same laws will affect us tomorrow. Tomorrow you may be the President of this country. Do not believe that it does not affect you but affects others. I think this is the problem that we have that we shall forever be subjects and not the people who run this country. If we knew that one day we will become the leaders, we would come up with laws that are good for us.
Madam President, let me leave space for others to add their voice by saying if we were to enact a law today and observe that it is not suitable for us, let it be, it is detrimental to our cause. If there are faults with any law, they should be amended. We should do that in terms of our Constitution, more so with this compromising document. A lot of years went by with people on this one. With those words Madam President, I would want to thank you.
+HON. SEN. A. SIBANDA: Madam President, I thank you for the opportunity that has been given unto me. I thank the Minister who is present here and who has brought this motion which is part of the Constitution of the country. My fellow Hon. Members have spoken, those who contributed before me.
Madam President, I want to respect the Constitution of the country. It is not a laughing document, especially after the hard work that we did and someone stands up to say it is a document to laugh about. I know in our country, we have intellectuals, especially the Vice President and the
President. Those are the people who know the rules of the country inasmuch as they are politicians as well. One thing that I know is I cannot stand up in this House and compare the President of Zimbabwe with the President of America. The President of America is just a businessman who is a dealer but the President of Zimbabwe is a politician.
It is my own view and whatever you say is your own view but in my view, you cannot compare President Trump and the President of
Zimbabwe for the President of Zimbabwe is a politician compared to the President of America. We cannot follow what the Americans are saying including the party that President Trump belongs to and they have seen the mistakes that they have made. My wish is that we not compare the President of America with the President of Zimbabwe.
Maybe our President is not told the truth; especially if you raise a complaint in the presence of Ministers in this House. Yesterday I saw quite a number of Ministers attending Parliament and you can tell it is a whipping system that is being made that they attend. Most of the time, they are doing this so that the business of the day can go ahead. What I know is that we cannot have the same thinking. Yes, we can divide the House and if we are to do a secret ballot, I know some of them can vote otherwise for we can all not have the same thinking. The only way you can have the same thinking is through the whipping system.
We want to build Zimbabwe using proper facts. Most of the times when you are being sworn in, you raise the Bible and ask God to guide you to run this country according to the laws that are written in the Bible. Someone will go behind and threaten you that if you go according to what the Bible says and not according to the party, you will be at fault. When we were coming up with this Constitution, all the
Zimbabweans, regardless of status contributed and we had to go through the Referendum.
What I want to urge you is that do not think they were playing. They are pushed based on the vows that you made when you were sworn in that you work for the people of Zimbabwe and not according to what you want. In most of the things, God will provide or correct. If there is one thing that I know it is that God loves Zimbabwe and when you take a closer look, you will realise that for real God loves this country.
Most of the Zimbabweans are educated and most of the times they go against the law just to sort someone who is in power. No one owns anyone in this country. Everyone is owned by God. Therefore, we should take …
THE HON. PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE: Order Hon
Senator, I have really tried to give you as much time as possible.
HON. SEN. A. SIBANDA: Sorry, I withdraw.
+THE HON. PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE: Awulo uzopela
awu debate itopic iyee.
+HON. SEN. A. SIBANDA: Thank you Madam President for the correction. I am one person who fears God and when I see someone going against God, I fear for I know that God can punish. It is not that I am insulting the Hon. Vice President but all that I am saying is, let us not do whatever we are trying to correct by causing pain to other people.
We feel so much of pain because we also participated in coming up with this Constitution. They have not implemented this Constitution for years now and put it into practice before we can amend it. There is a Ndebele saying that says, try to sleep on the side where you have been hurt for that is the way you get healed. My wish is, can our leaders try to implement the Constitution before we start amending it? After having tested it, we can see whether it is working or not and then we can amend it. You will see that everything else will be easy to amend, especially if it was put into practice. How do we think God is going to take this seeing what we are doing to the people, what we are doing to ourselves especially as a House, we want to try and decide for everyone in this country and say we are the leaders without taking into consideration whether God is agreeing or not. We are not supposed to be eating from one pot and the other pot. I thank you.
HON. SEN. CHIEF CHARUMBIRA: Thank you Madam
President. Because it is about the Constitution, I will debate in English because the Constitution is written in English. Madam President, I stand here after we celebrated the unity of this Chamber last week, showing that the Senate can unite because it is expected to be more mature and that the debates here are driven by wisdom and the good of the country. We want as much as possible to distinguish ourselves from the other forum. Last week, there was unity over the rejection of the Adverse Report and we expect that we continue in that spirit of muonera pamwe tichiona zvakafanana. Today, we have this amendment of the Constitution and when we debate ourselves, in my view as Senators, we should be guided by the objective of the Bill. What is the objective, with what result? Let us try to avoid other extraneous issues. It is clear that the objective is to ensure that the conduct of recruitment and appointment of the head of the judiciary and the two other positions is done in a manner that ensures respect and dignity of that office. That is what they are trying to do. It is to do with the respect and dignity of that office. Everywhere in the world, in every sector, private or public, whether it is Barclays Bank or Delta or major conglomerates of the world, we have never heard of the Group Chief Executive or the CEO being interviewed by middle management. It is always the higher level, the board. There is a good reason why it is done that way. It is a misnomer that in the Constitution, it is a big document and we were tired towards the end and some of these things slipped through and now we
realise it.
Even the Senators in this room, if there were interviews and we say the councillors do the interviews, you will say no, the councillors are too junior; we cannot be interviewed by councillors. You cannot even allow it yourselves. So the objective is that the dignity of that office should be maintained by having the right people to appoint. Having said that, I want to give an example in this Constitution, one correction we made, having been a member of COPAC Select Committee, we had an issue similar to this one. We were very alert as chiefs and we corrected it. It led to how chiefs are appointed. Previously, any junior officer in Local
Government or the DA would go and gather people and select the chief. Sometimes you look at the person- hey!. Then when you are appointed, he would say, uyu ndini ndakaita kuti aapointwe. Uyu Ishe here uyu ndewangu uyu - very junior people saying that just because they were part of the process. The President appoints but the process involves very junior people. The dignity of our institution was compromised and it is
a fact.
During that process of the Constitution-making, we said we need to correct that. That is why today we have a new process in this Constitution. Now we are saying, let the chiefs assemble other chiefs, go and hear submissions from the families or clans involved and we are very happy. At least by the time the name goes to the President to appoint a chief, it is chiefs themselves at the right level who are superior to a DA because a DA is junior to a chief. We had this mismatch whereby a subordinate was recruiting the boss and we corrected it. I think this is the same spirit that we are trying to have this afternoon.
Madam President, if we go to a university and other institutions for example, the Vice Chancellor is appointed by the President but who interviews them? The principle is, you cannot have lecturers interviewing the Vice Chancellor. It has not happened. We should copy these institutions of academia where we get the best brains. They have models of how you get the person at the top. This Bill surely, I know you are politicians and you may want to debate as usual and differ which is part of everything but when we talk of democracy, I think we need to talk more about what is democracy. Democracy is the rules and a Constitution to follow. We should be bound by that Constitution.
Anything that is inconsistent is null and void.
What I am saying is, we have put in the same Constitution amendment procedures. The same democracy has said, you can amend this Constitution. That is very instructive. It is constitutional to amend the Constitution. If you go to Section 328 of the same Constitution, it talks about amendment of the Constitution. We also agreed at the COPAC that the Constitution can be amended and that is what we are doing. Now, we are fighting - why amend the Constitution but it is you who said we should amend it. It can be amended but what is the procedure? I think that is what should be debated upon here.
You should ask the Vice President - are you following the right procedure in terms of amending? We believe he is following the correct procedure. The same Constitution says, you publicise, you gazette and that is what we should focus on because we agreed that the Constitution can be amended. There is no timeframe that says after 10 years or after two days – as long as you follow that procedure. In this instance, we are simply using the same.
Someone said, if we go out to the people and we ask them, they may not support this but you said the only chapter that will be subjected to everybody is Chapter 4 – Fundamental Rights. You are the ones who said that the other provisions, you can amend by two thirds majority. Now you are saying, let us go to the people but you are the ones who said we do not need to go to the people. So the procedure they are following is correct. That is the emphasis I want to put here. We are carrying out the right procedure and it is up to us then to vote or not to vote, but not that we should protest and say, why are you amending? Then you are being undemocratic because we are actually rejecting the very law, the very Constitution that we agreed upon. Let us not pick Chapter 2 on citizenship and say yakanaka, this one yakaipa. The Constitution - we take it as it is; the whole package. Whether it is bitter or it is good for you, accept it.
I am saying, as Senate, I know it is fashionable for politicians to just beg to differ. This amendment is harmless. It is actually dignifying the office of the Chief Justice, his Deputy and the President of the High Court. So, I stand to say fine, why do we not all support this amendment. Thank you very much.
THE HON. PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE: I just wish to
advise Senators that really, we are at a point where we are just repeating what others have already said and there is no point in continuing to debate if we are all saying the same thing.
*HON. SEN. MASHAVAKURE: Thank you Madam President.
I want to thank you for the opportunity that you have given me. I am happy that I have listened to both parties. Two or three say that the Constitution is a compromised document. This is a confession to me the priest that it is you politicians who made a compromise that the
Constitution did not come from the people. If you look at Chapter 4, there is no amendment of Chapter 4 without a referendum and there is a rider to the clause that says when resources are available.
Our people were there at COPAC. They never made such submissions as regards the disabled. I am in agreement with those that want to amend it. There are certain things that need to be amended. They have quickly looked at the issue of the appointment of judges, but there are a lot of things that need to be addressed.
In my communal home, there are big needles that are used for sewing sacks. They need to be looking for such needles to mend the Constitution. They should not say to service providers, if funds are available. There are no constitutions that give people the right to run away from their obligations by saying if funds are available.
I am happy that you have started with a new culture of amending the Constitution so that it becomes the people’s Constitution. I am happy that all the politicians agree that this is a compromise document.
They did not take the people’s submissions. Representation of the disabled is only me and Hon. Shiri who is here, but I looked at submissions made from Mashonaland West, Manicaland and Headlands. They wanted more people that are disabled to represent them, but because this was a compromise document, it said the disabled are irrelevant, let us just give them two positions in the number of the people that are disabled.
When you go further Vice President, remember to increase representation to six or eight members of people living with disabilities because if you do so, you will be listening to what the people said. They know, Senators have confessed that this is a compromise document.
They did not bring on board the people’s views.
I am happy about the views that were raised in this august House. There was a point that was raised by the Vice President regarding the judges. The examples that were given - the American President, after appointing the person that he wants, goes through the Senate. He has to be approved by the Senate. If I were to have a bald head and my head becomes bigger maybe, the President would listen to us better next year.
I thank you Madam President.
THE VICE PRESIDENT AND MINISTER OF JUSTICE,
LEGAL AND PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (HON. E. D.
MNANGAGWA): Madam President, may I, from the outset thank...
Some Hon. Senators left the Senate in protest.
THE HON. PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE: Order please!
HON. E. D. MNANGAGWA:...all the Hon. Members who have
made contributions to this debate. I will begin to reply to the Hon. Senator who has just left the Chamber, but the Senator will read my reply in the Hansard, Hon. Mlotshwa. Her concern is that we are amending the Constitution less than five years since the Constitution came into operation with effect.
That is not an issue of consequence at all as rather Senators contributed to the fact that it could have been amended the next day after it came into force. What the Constitution provides is that there is a process of amending the Constitution itself, has those provisions stating that it can be amended and the process of amendment is provided for in the same Constitution. Let Hon. Senators know that the Constitution is not cast in stone. It is created by men, made into a Constitution by men and men can amend it. It will never amend people, but people amend it.
With regard to the independence of the judiciary, the process of appointing judges has no relation to the independence of the Judiciary which is guaranteed by the Constitution. The independence of the Judiciary relates to the freedom of a judge to determine a case before him or her without influence from outside. So, that is the main core aspect of the independence of the Judiciary that they make their decisions without external influence.
The process we are changing is intended to give dignity to the office of the Chief Justice. It is not proper, it does not give dignity to the office of the Chief Justice if juniors sit around the table to decide who shall be their boss and once appointed, then the junior will say if I were not myself you could not be in that chair. So that must be removed. I know that some Hon. Senators have very strong views about the process that this Constitution was as a result of an outreach programme nationwide and the views that are in the Constitution are the views of the majority. The amendments of this Constitution are views of the majority in Parliament. So, whatever we are doing, we go by the views of majority and God loves the views of the majority.
With regards to contributions made by Hon. Sen. Komichi, on the appointment of Justice Malaba as Chief Justice, the Government of Zimbabwe is actually a Government which obeys the rule of law. Currently, the law provides that the Chief Justice shall go through interviews and we allowed that process because that is the current law, until this becomes law - then the next Chief Justice will be affected by the new law.
Hon. Sen. Komichi also said we cannot just pick anybody to be a Judge like himself, Komichi. Of course no, we cannot, he does not qualify. The three issues that are raised, the first one - the constitutional qualifications may not permit him even to apply. That is a fact of life. He also indicated that we can have retired Judges to come and constitute the Judicial Service Commission (JSC). No, the JSC is constituted through the provisions of the Constitution that the Chief Justice, Vice Chief Justice, Judge President, Supreme Court Judges and others constitute the JSC.
So, we cannot move away from that and get some Judges outside that prescription by the Constitution. He also said that if the process of interviews is followed, then there will be no errors. No, errors are human. Even if we follow that process of interviews, we will still elect people into office who are human beings and human beings can make mistakes.
Hon. Sen. Khumalo, the Trump issue, she said President Trump is a businessman and President Mugabe is a politician. I am not so sure whether President Trump will agree that he does not know politics. I believe that he won the Presidency because he was able to put a programme which was political. However, the President of the Republic of Zimbabwe appoints the Chief Justice, after consultation with the Judicial Service Commission.
Hon. Sen. B. Sibanda wants me to clarify the difference between the other heads of the two pillars of the State and the Head of State. I should again repeat, the President as Head of State - the State means the three pillars. He is Head of the three pillars. It is clear in black and white and there is no other. He is citizen number one, there are no two citizens on number one; only one, the Head of State, and he also becomes President of the Republic. He wanted me to explain that one, I hope he will read the Hansard and will get to understand the difference between the other heads of the two pillars, as distinguished from the Head of State, who is the President, Mugabe.
He asks why we should abandon interviews. We are abandoning interviews in relation to the Chief Justice, Deputy Chief Justice and the Judge President because those are senior offices of the Judiciary branch.
We feel that they should not be subjected to humiliation by their juniors. They must keep the dignity of the office and we have that duty to give them that dignity.
Hon. Sen. Mavhunga supports the Bill. I am grateful that you support the Bill. You actually assisted me in answering some of the questions, that the Constitution has no timeframe with regards when it can be amended.
Hon. Sen. Chipanga, you are correct that there are areas where we were unable to agree and we compromised. This is why in Schedule Six, you find there are provisions which have a time limit, five or ten years limit, because we were not able to agree on a definite period on those areas. We are still going to make sure we correct everything. Let me assure the Senate that this is not the only thing we intend to amend in the Constitution. There are many other areas which we are looking at, which we feel should be amended.
It is not a question of being a ZANU PF Government in power, but it is a question of a democratic process. A democratic process requires that the party that has the majority after a general election should form a Government and it has a programme. If the Constitution forbids the implementation of a programme, they have a choice to amend the Constitution so that the programme can go forward. If next time they are not in power and some other political party comes in and thinks that they must amend, the Constitution allows them to amend - but for now we are amending, because we feel it must be amended.
Ho. Sen. A. Sibanda, is worried that we whipped people to come and vote. This is democracy. The ZANU PF Chief Whips never whipped MDC Members; they only whipped ZANU PF Members. I am sure that there are whips also on the MDC side who whip MDC Members. So, there is nothing bad with whipping your Members to come to Parliament, as happened yesterday.
The question of secret ballot, no, if you are a member of a political party, it means that you adhere to the policies and exercise the policies of that party. You should then stand upright and say I am a member of this political party which brought me to Parliament and not go to secrecy. If you do not like your party, you can always resign and an election can be conducted so that somebody who can represent the party can be elected. Senators as well as Members of the National Assembly are representatives of the people. You represent people, but if you reach a stage where you feel you do not anymore represent the people who brought you here, the door is open.
Hon. Sen. Chief Charumbira, I am very grateful, you were able to articulate the provisions of the Constitution, especially the objectives of what is happening. The core issue is to amend the process of how a
Chief Justice, Deputy Chief Justice and Judge President are appointed. That is what is being amended, so that we give dignity to these people because they are very important in the structure of the State.
You gave useful examples like a University Chancellor; you cannot assemble lecturers and say who among you can we make a Chancellor? Even teachers, we do not assemble them to choose a
Headmaster. Some other authority determines who shall be the
Headmaster or Vice Chancellor. I am also happy that Hon. Sen. Mashavakure stated that the requirement in the Constitution to other provisions is by two thirds majority, only Chapter Four and other aspects would require a referendum. Not all the provisions require a referendum. In particular this one does not require a referendum, it only requires two thirds majority. With those replies, comments, statements or contributions by Hon. Senators, Madam President I rest my case.
I move that the Bill be read a second time.
Motion put and agreed to.
Bill read a second time.
Committee Stage: With leave, forthwith.
COMMITTEE STAGE
CONSTITUTION OF ZIMBABWE AMENDMENT (NO. 1) BILL [H.
- 1, 2017]
House in Committee.
Clauses 1 to 8 put and agreed to.
House resumed.
Bill reported without amendments.
Third Reading: Tuesday, 1st August, 2017.
On the motion of THE MINISTER OF DEFENCE (HON. DR. SEKERAMAYI), Senate adjourned at Seven Minutes past Five o’clock p.m.
PARLIAMENT OF ZIMBABWE
Tuesday, 11th July, 2017
The Senate met at Half-past Two o’ clock p.m.
PRAYERS
(THE HON. PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE in the Chair)
ANNOUNCEMENT BY THE HON. PRESIDENT OF THE
SENATE
DEATH OF HON. SEN. ALPHINA JUBA
THE HON. PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE: It is with
profound sorrow that I have to inform the Senate of the death of Hon.
Sen. Alphina Juba, Senator for Matabeleland North Province on Sunday, 9th July, 2017. I invite Hon. Senators to rise and observe a moment of silence in respect of the late Hon. Senator.
All Hon. Senators observed a minute of silence.
MOTION
STATE OF THE NATION ADDRESS BY HIS EXCELLENCY THE
PRESIDENT
First Order read: Adjourned debate on motion in reply to the State of the Nation Address.
Question again proposed.
HON. SEN. CHIPANGA: I move that the debate do now adjourn.
HON. SEN. MUMVURI: I second.
Motion put and agreed to.
Debate to resume: Tuesday, 25th July, 2017.
MOTION
PRESIDENTIAL SPEECH: DEBATE ON ADDRESS
Second Order read: Adjourned debate on motion in reply to the Presidential Speech.
Question again proposed.
HON. SEN. NYAMBUYA: Thank you very much Madam
President. Allow me to wind up this motion which was in reply to the
Presidential Speech. Madam President, we witnessed some debate in this House which was quite robust, constructive and indeed many constructive and useful contributions were made by members across the floor and on both sides of the House.
I want to thank all Hon. Members for having participated in this particular debate. In particular, let me thank Hon. Sen. Mavhunga, Hon.
Sen. Chimbudzi, Hon. Sen. Mumvuri, Hon. Sen. Mawire, Hon. Sen.
Machingaifa, Hon. Sen. Murwira, Hon. Sen. Maluleke, Hon. Sen.
Mashavakure, Hon. Sen. Chief Chiduku, Hon. Sen. Musaka, Hon. Sen.
Mohadi, Hon. Sen. Bhobho, Hon. Sen. Goto, Hon. Sen. Matiirira and Hon. Sen. Makwarimba.
Madam President, it is with regret and actually very sad that I would like to register and I am sure I speak on behalf of the other Hon. Senators here; I want to register our displeasure, our dismay and indeed deep regret that no Ministers came to respond to this very good debate which ensued in the House. It is my hope that this point is going to be noted as one of the biggest disappointments in so far as Senators are concerned. We hope the Executive is going to take very seriously the contributions which are made in this august Senate by the Hon. Senators as pointed out in the debate. I hope it will not happen again in the Fifth Session. On that note Madam President, I would like to move that the motion be adopted.
Motion that a respectful address be presented to the President of
Zimbabwe as follows:
May it please you, Your Excellency the President:
We, the Members of Parliament of Zimbabwe, desire to express our loyalty to Zimbabwe and beg leave to offer our respectful thanks for the speech which you have been pleased to address to Parliament - put and agreed to.
MOTION
REPORT OF THE 40TH PLENARY SESSION OF THE SADC
PARLIAMENTARY FORUM
Third Order read: Adjourned debate on motion on the Report of the 40th Plenary Session of the SADC Parliamentary Forum held in Harare, Zimbabwe.
Question again proposed.
*HON. SEN. CHIMBUDZI: Thank you Madam President. I
would want to thank Hon. Sen. Mohadi, the mover of the motion on the report of the 40th Plenary Session of the SADC Parliamentary Forum which was held in Harare, Zimbabwe. In the report, a lot of issues were touched on – issues that are beneficial to all the countries. It was important because the entire SADC gathered in Harare and came up with such a position.
The meeting was held from 3rd to 15th November, 2016. Mention was made of tuberculosis and diabetes. These are problems that we are currently facing and they are not problems that are only found in Zimbabwe, but SADC adopted such motions and observed that they affected the majority of the population in the region. They sat down and came up with ways in which to eradicate tuberculosis and diabetes.
They also spoke about agriculture which is the bedrock of the
region. Zimbabwe is lucky that we have had sufficient rainfall. We would want to thank our Government for having introduced the Command Agriculture, through Hon. Dr. Made, the Minister of Agriculture, Mechanisation and Irrigation Development. This was a resounding success. We are aware that a hungry man is an angry man and the exact opposite will happen because of the bountiful food in the country. Families will live harmoniously and people will not spend a lot of time going all over looking for food from their neighbours to sustain themselves. Zimbabwe is proud for this programme that was brought by the Government. We have done very well and we are now among the elite in terms of having successfully carried out the programme of Command Agriculture.
I believe that as regards the issue of diabetes and tuberculosis, we should create awareness among our people so that they become enlightened about the dangers of such diseases. Ordinary people especially those in the rural areas should be informed of the signs and symptoms of tuberculosis and diabetes because some even succumb to death unaware that they suffer from such ailments. We should give awareness to the majority of our people so that we do not lose our populace unnecessarily.
I thank SADC for having taken time to debate this motion on tuberculosis and diabetes. I want to thank the same meeting for thanking the Zimbabwean Government for successfully hosting the meeting. As a country, we need to follow up on the recommendations that were made and if there is need for research to be done, let our universities look into these issues and carry out further research on issues like tuberculosis and diabetes in order to ensure that the two diseases are brought under control or completely eradicated. With these few words, I thank you Madam President.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE AND ECONOMIC
DEVELOPMENT (HON. CHINAMASA): Madam President, I move
that the debate do now adjourn.
Motion put and agreed to.
Debate to resume: Wednesday, 12th July, 2017.
MOTION
FIRST REPORT OF THE THEMATIC COMMITTEE ON
INDIGENISATION AND EMPOWERMENT ON THE
CIRCUMSTANCES SURROUNDING THE NON-ESTABLISHMENT
OF THE COMMUNITY SHARE OWNERSHIP TRUSTS
Fourth Order read: Adjourned debate on motion on the First Report of the Thematic Committee on Indigenisation and Empowerment on the Circumstances Surrounding the Non-Establishment of Community Share Ownership Trusts in Mudzi and Mutoko Districts.
Question again proposed.
HON. SEN. TAWENGWA: Madam President, I move that the
debate do now adjourn.
HON. SEN. J. NDLOVU: I second.
Motion put and agreed to.
Debate to resume: Wednesday, 12th July, 2017.
MOTION
FIRST REPORT OF THE THEMATIC COMMITTEE ON
SUSTAINABLE DEVELOPMENT GOALS ON SDG NO. 3
Fifth Order read: Adjourned debate on motion on the First Report of the Thematic Committee on Sustainable Development Goals on SDG No. 3.
Question again proposed.
HON. SEN. CHIEF MTSHANE: Madam President, I move that
the debate do now adjourn.
HON. SEN. CHIEF DANDAWA: I second.
Motion put and agreed to.
Debate to resume: Wednesday, 12th July, 2017.
MOTION
FIRST REPORT OF THE THEMATIC COMMITTEE ON HIV AND
AIDS ON HIV AND AIDS IN INSTITUTIONS OF HIGHER
LEARNING IN ZIMBABWE
Sixth Order read: Adjourned debate on motion on the First Report of the Thematic Committee on HIV and AIDS on HIV and AIDS in Institutions of Higher Learning in Zimbabwe.
Question again proposed.
+HON. SEN. BHEBE: Thank you Madam President for giving
me this opportunity to add my voice on the report tabled in this Senate. I want to thank the member who brought this motion Hon. Sen. Timveos and the seconder Hon. Sen. Masuku. Madam President, I am one of the members of the Committee on HIV and AIDS and I want to add my voice since the other members have already spoken a lot on this issue. One thing that really touched me when we were visiting higher learning institutions is that most of the children were not happy because they are not being given grants anymore and this make them vulnerable and even fail to pay some of the things they need for their studies. My wish is that Government must intervene and pay the grants so that the students will be able to assist themselves during their time of study. They were saying this leads them into prostitution for it enables them to earn a living.
As a Committee, we recommend that this should be given a priority because this is one of the things that cause the spread of HIV and AIDS especially in people aged between 15 and 24. It is our desire as a Committee that the grants are paid so that the students will be able to sustain themselves without engaging in immoral behaviour.
The other thing that they highlighted which causes them to have unprotected sex is that the condoms given to them freely are not of good quality. Our recommendation is that outreach programmes be carried out and students taught that it is not only about the use of condoms but to value their future and their lives. When their parents take them to colleges, the main reason is for them to advance their careers and become better parents in the future.
I wish if outreach programmes could be carried out so that the college students are educated on how best they can handle their future.
During the outreaches, they also indicated that they look for blessers. This shocked us as we are also parents and I asked myself that if other students at colleges are looking for blessers what more of our very own children. The Committee recommends that Government must assist and intervene in the way these students are living in these higher learning institutions.
I do not have much to say since other Hon. Senators have already spoken on this motion, but my wish is that; let us not concentrate on schools and colleges because there are so many people out there who are affected by the HIV and AIDS pandemic. It is our wish as a Committee that we go to mines and other areas where these issues are rampant. It is our wish that we could visit such places and educate them especially on the importance of valuing their lives.
It is not that when we try to educate them, we are not concerned about their living conditions. Our major concern is their livelihood and if we are given an opportunity to go as a Committee, especially to the mines and other busy areas, I think this might be a way of eradicating the HIV and AIDS pandemic if we work in collaboration with the National AIDS Council (NAC). We should not encourage them to use protection only but also to value their lives so that they can have a better future. My predecessors have spoken a lot on this issue, therefore I will not say much. I thank you.
*HON. SEN. CHABUKA: Thank you Mr. President for
affording me this opportunity to add my voice to this motion on HIV and AIDS. On the report on HIV and AIDS in institutions, first and foremost, I would want to thank the mover of this motion Hon. Sen.
Timveos seconded by Hon. Sen. Masuku and all those members of the
Committee who contributed. I am also a member of that particular Committee.
This is an important issue which can make or break the country. It also helps us as parents to know about our children’s state of affairs as they are in these institutions of higher learning. It also helps us to come up with ways in which we are able to sustain them and hence contain this pandemic. We thank NAC for going to all these institutions and various places to impart knowledge on the prevention of HIV and AIDS. In certain institutions that we visited, we visited various institutions but did not go round the length and breadth of the country due to insufficient resources. The institutions that we called on, we were touched and pained that children of that particular age could be so knowledgeable on various styles of sexual intercourse. We even have children who are not ashamed of specifically admitting that they indulge in sexual activities using a particular style so that they are paid $50.00 infront of dignitaries such as elders, a practice that is contrary to the dictates of our African culture. This happened in Ngundu and the traditional leaders were quite taken aback.
Our children, because of lust are now doing this. They openly admitted that they will have unprotected sex and do a particular style when a person offers them $50.00 or $100.00. Once the man who has been away for three months indulges in this extra-marital affair gets to his matrimonial home as is the case with cross border truck drivers, the man indulges in sexual intercourse with his wife and infects her in the process – we were touched by this. We also interviewed those drivers in Beitbridge, a certain old man proposed for legislators to come up with a policy that allows the truck drivers to be accompanied by their wives because they travel for three months or so. They even indicated the fact that they spend a lot of time waiting for their goods to be cleared by Customs Immigration. As human beings, they do not have a choice but to indulge in unprotected sexual intercourse with the children who will be hiding in the bushes.
The drivers also informed us that it is the children who come knocking on their windows when it gets dark. Once a girl approaches them, they indulge in unprotected sex for the duration of the journey from Beitbridge to Chirundu. Despite the measures that are being put in place by NAC and Say What to ensure they eradicate HIV and AIDS, donors are trying to ensure that people become aware of the pandemic.
We realised that this type of behaviour is retrogressive to the efforts being made.
We went to Bulawayo and students were complaining that lecturers are also requesting sexual favours in order for the student to obtain a pass in their studies. These lecturers indulge in unprotected sex with these students, hence the scourge of HIV and AIDS will not be eradicated. Some students at Midlands State University said they preferred flavoured condoms. I was surprised as to why they would require them and that they would indulge in unprotected sex should they fail to secure flavoured condoms.
This HIV and AIDS issue is quite important. We should get funding as a Committee to complete our visits. Government should obtain grants as most students said they were in that position due to the fact that they failed to raise money for their sustenance. Their parents only raise money through brewing opaque beer or selling of livestock hence the parents cannot afford to give their children extra money for tuck. The Government should assist these children by paying them grants. Let us not rubber stamp certain things without taking measures. The Minister of Finance and Economic Development, Hon. Chinamasa is here. Children are now indulging in early sexual activities because of poverty. We appreciate that times are hard but if possible, do something about their accommodation and grants.
Our children at the local universities and tertiary institutions are indulging in illicit affairs with elderly men fit to be their grandfathers. They will not turn them down because of their impressive cars and the men have sex with them. The grandparents who are looking after the grandchildren are using the late parent’s pension benefits to ensure the children go to school. They are unable to be given pocket money and as a result, they are indulging in sexual intercourse to sustain themselves. This is painful Hon. Minister.
My first child went to the University of Zimbabwe. In the past, it used to be better because there were grants that were being given to students and our children would not be so immoral. We are the
Government and we should do something about it. The people scold us and say we are doing nothing about it and we should say something about it. Your presence makes me happy. The situation on the ground is appalling. Please intervene. A lot of things have been said. There are some amongst us who still misbehave.
As we went around, we saw and learnt a lot of things. We run the risk of losing this country to HIV/AIDS. I have decided to add a few words because I was hurt by what is happening in the institutions of higher learning. I repeat that all the schools were saying that there should be grants.
They also complained that they are not accessing HIV/AIDS medication because they are from Masvingo or Gokwe, so they cannot access their medication from the local clinic. When they have to go back home, they lose valuable time and miss lessons. As a result, the children will be forced to default from receiving treatment thereby leading to their deaths. Government should step up and do something about it to ensure that this situation is alleviated and to also prevent this
HIV/AIDS endemic. With these few words, I thank you Hon. President.
HON. SEN. TIMVEOS: I move that the debate do now adjourn.
HON. SEN. MAKORE: I second.
Motion put and agreed to.
Debate to resume: Wednesday, 12th July, 2017.
MOTION
ADOPTION OF A DRAFT PROTOCOL ON THE AFRICAN
CHARTER ON HUMAN AND PEOPLE’S RIGHTS ON THE
RIGHT TO NATIONALITY AND THE ERADICATION OF
STATELESSNESS IN AFRICA
Seventh Order read: Adjourned debate on motion on resolving situations of statelessness in our country.
Question again proposed.
HON. SEN. MASHAVAKURE: I would also want to extend my
gratitude to the mover of the motion Hon. Sen. Timveos and her seconder. I think we owe a lot on this concept of statelessness to the legacy of colonialism in the sense that for instance, you realise that they brought the concept and also brought the practice. When they were engaging in the recruitment of migrant labour, workers had to come from one country to another for the sake of having cheap labour on their farms and mines. They made sure that those same people that they brought into the country from elsewhere remained on edge, unsure of themselves, feeling a bit insecure and therefore that kind of situation helped the operators of mines and farms to keep their wages down. We know that in some parts of the continent that has now created a problem called xenophobia but all that goes back to colonialism because they wanted cheap labour. The only way they could do that was by bringing in people from a particular country and use them. The workers on the other hand, in the hope that they would get enough money to go back home, continued working but you will realise that most of them ended up finishing their entire lives in those countries where they had gone to work. They would not be issued with registration papers and that also turned out to be the case with their children.
If you also look at the issue of the Federation of Rhodesia and Nyasaland which was there between 1953 and 1963, I think it also led to a great movement of people from Malawi to Zimbabwe and Zambia. Even up to now, we have people in this country who still have relatives who moved to the other two countries during the Federation and they are still there. I would suspect that some of those people from the other two countries who stayed behind again became subject to this colonial system whereby they were not issued with registration papers for the sake of being exploited by the colonial system of the time.
We can also go on and talk about refugees. You will find that people moved from distant places like Somalia to Zimbabwe and from Zimbabwe to other countries. Before the colonial times, there were no borders and therefore some of these things did not apply. You would just walk into a place and once people accepted you, you became part of them. However, these days you have to be issued with an identity document, which again is an invention of our colonial heritage. The problem these days is that if we were to open our doors, anybody who turns out to be a refugee in a particular country or in Zimbabwe for instance, and is given documents accepting them as a citizen would probably open the floodgates to all sorts of people moving from everywhere on the planet to come to Zimbabwe and be issued with documentation. That would increase our population in a way that is probably not planned. Some people would say the better option would be something that was suggested in another motion by Hon. Sen. Musaka, where you deliberately procreate and breed like rabbits to increase your own population as much as possible.
The other issue pertaining to our situation in Zimbabwe, is the problem where we end up with people who are classified as stateless because people are born and then have to wait six or more weeks to get a birth certificate. This is according to the birth record that they get. A child is born at a clinic or hospital and then goes to the registrar later to be issued with a birth certificate. I think we should start thinking along the lines of a situation where upon birth, every child is registered officially so that the parents do not have to look for some other resources to travel to some centre where the child can be issued with a birth certificate. In other words, every clinic or hospital should have a place where upon birth every child is given a birth certificate. Maybe the challenge will be that we know that sometimes we experience a bit of child mortality. So, as soon as the child dies, after two days, two months or two years one still have to find resources to get that child a death certificate. However, all the same, no matter what the problems may be, we should start thinking along the lines that everyone who is born is issued with a birth certificate on the day that they are born by whoever is there. For instance, in our rural areas, we could start thinking of allowing our chiefs, their headmen and sub-chiefs to be approved officers who can issue children who are born at home and not at a health institution like a clinic with birth certificates. There will not be a need for witnesses to be carried to a district hospital or a councilor and writing of letters here and there. That will simply kill the problem once and for all. With those few words, I would like to thank you and the mover of the motion.
*HON. SEN. MAWIRE: Thank you Mr. President for affording me this opportunity to add my voice to the debate. I would like to thank the mover of the motion, Hon. Sen. Timveos and her seconder. I may differ with others because if I look at the issue of statelessness, it is difficult for me to believe that one does not have a country of origin. There is no such thing but what is there is that people are just lazy to work so they migrate from one country to the other looking for a place to settle where they will have a blissful life.
What I enjoyed most about this motion is that I would like to thank the Zimbabwean Government. In the past few months, we learnt that the SADC Parliamentary Forum touched on the issue of statelessness. That title was one of the challenges that SADC is facing. I would like to believe that this will be eradicated because from the reports that were being tabled in this House, we hear that this was discussed about. Countries should urge their citizens not to wonder aimlessly; wonderers should not be acceptable in different countries.
Zimbabwe is the food basket. In other countries, there are citizens who are lazy because of few wars that are found in Somalia and the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC). If you look at the Southern region, you will see that Zimbabwe is peaceful and that if tits people become refugees, they will live well and have food. They see that Mozambican refugees are still here and they flock to Zimbabwe. I hope that the state of statelessness will end very soon.
Some of this so called statelessness people are our own children whose parents are lazy. They have been given land but they do not want to work. Village heads have had problems, they do not want to live in communal land. They run into town, become street children and city fathers and send street children to beg for food. We should not lie to each other as members of this august House. If you go down Samora Machel Avenue, you see parents on the sides of the road and on both sides they will be busy begging and when they get alms, they will go and deposit them to the mother and go back to the street.
It is not the Government that has produced the children but us as parents who plan to give birth to these children. We are using these children because we are lazy, we then say the Government must do something. We are overburdening the Government, let us control ourselves. We should tell the people in our constituencies that they should work hard and that life is never easy, we should work hard to earn a living. A woman sung that song that nothing comes for free. In the past, our parents used to work and sell round nuts and cowpeas to sustain their families. I hear that even school children are complaining that the Government is not giving them funds to be able to allow them to go to school. We went to school without Government assistance. Some of us attained degrees without aid from the Government but were not behaving in an immoral manner. If the family is immoral then the fruit will not fall far from the tree. We should stick to our culture and not readily embrace other cultures. We should not ask that they be given money to buy peanuts and maputi. It should be used for other things. I thank you for giving me that opportunity.
*HON. SEN. MACHINGAIFA: Thank you Mr. President for
affording me this opportunity. How are you? I want to add my voice to such an important issue, a motion raised by Hon. Sen. Timveos on the issue of statelessness. Mr. President, in our African culture, it is a difficult thing to say. If it was a tree, for it to grow, we needed to dig six feet down and put in the proper manure so that it grows up properly. This is an important issue which needs to be looked at seriously. We need to understand what exactly it needs, what the state of affairs is and how the situation can be corrected. If one has moved from several states and seek refuge in Zimbabwe, can one be given Zimbabwean citizenship to end statelessness?
As we were growing up, we used to hear our elders who are now deceased saying there were foreigners who had become experts in being refugees. They would even shun going back to where they would have come from because they would invoke their rights as refugees that there was a particular programme that was sponsoring their upkeep. We have always spoken about this issue as was said by Hon. Sen. Mawire, that in Zimbabwe we have street children who are growing up from the streets. They have not been removed from the streets because the truth of the matter is that everyone has a village head and a chief. What are those street children going to be in future? There are certain organisations that represent those street children and say they should hold fast because that it is their right to be street children.
They have no documentation, birth certificate, national registration certificate; they live under the bridge and grow up to be adults. The next day we are told that they are stateless. Put together, homelessness and statelessness, once we issue our national registration card to such a person, we will hear issues of xenophobia coming back. We hear Zimbabweans being chased away from South Africa, but there are certain Zimbabweans who are chased away from South Africa and they leave their properties behind. What can be done to address such issues?
I would want to give an example of the communal home setting at a school meeting. We say that parents who have children at a particular school should discuss the issue of school fees. They are joined by guardians who are not parents who accept that hundred dollars should be set as fees because they do not know how to raise money. What use is a person going to be to a Zimbabwean country if they are going to be given a national registration certificate when they are not Zimbabwean citizens or children of Zimbabwe Mr. President? Thank you.
HON. SEN. TIMVEOS: I move that the debate do now adjourn.
HON. SEN. MAKONE: I second.
Motion put and agreed to.
Debate to resume: Wednesday, 12th July, 2017.
MOTION
ALIGNMENT OF THE EDUCATION ACT TO THE CONSTITUTION
Eighth Order read: Adjourned debate on motion on funds controlled by School Development Committees (SDGs) and School Development Associations (SDAs).
Question again proposed.
HON. SEN. KHUMALO: I move that the debate do now adjourn.
HON. SEN. MAKORE: I second.
Motion put and agreed to.
Debate to resume: Wednesday, 12th July, 2017.
On the motion of THE MINISTER OF FINANCE AND ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT (HON. CHINAMASA), the Senate
adjourned at Twenty Minutes to Four o’clock p.m.
PARLIAMENT OF ZIMBABWE
Wednesday, 12th July, 2017
The Senate met at Half-past Two o’ clock p.m.
PRAYERS
(THE HON. PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE in the Chair)
ANNOUNCEMENT BY THE HON. PRESIDENT OF THE
SENATE
MDC-T PARTY MEETING
THE HON. PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE: I wish to inform
all Members of the MDC-T party that they are required to remain behind after the Senate has adjourned for a meeting with their Chief Whip.
HON. SEN. KHUMALO: Madam President, I rise on a matter of privilege regarding the motion on School Development Committees
(SDCs) and School Development Associations (SDAs) and the response by the Minister, Hon. Dr. Lazarus D. K. Dokora, Minister of Primary and Secondary Education.
On the 15th of June 2017, the Minister of Primary and Secondary Education, Hon. Dr. Lazarus Dokora when responding to the debate on my motion on the need to realign the Education Act to the Constitution stated that and I quote him from the ‘Hansard’ of 15 June 2017, “As it stands debating as it is put here is really debating on a matter that has originated in the social media which has no legal force and is really wasting Hon. Senators time”. The Minister made a fool out of me in bringing the motion to this House and brought this House into disrepute as he questioned my integrity as well as the integrity of my fellow Senators who debated on the motion.
Hon. Dr. Dokora through his contributions deterred and unduly influenced members from debating the motion and indeed misdirected even our Chair, Madam President through his misrepresentation.
When Hon. Sen. Makone courteously asked for an assurance that no SDC funds have been transferred, Hon. Dr. Dokora responded by saying “…..we must debate the issue first. I have no legal instrument to transfer the money …”, suggesting that there were no SDC funds that had been transferred to SSF.
Madam President, there is sufficient evidence which proves that Government schools in Harare were given the directive to transfer the funds and indeed transferred SDC funds to the SSF account by the 31st March 2017. All levies for term 2 were channeled to SSF account and not SDC account as per current law. Schools have notices at their offices advising of these changes.
For the avoidance of doubt, the House can verify with the Ministry of Primary and Secondary Education, Harare Provincial Education
Director called Mr. Kateera whose contact details are 0774 455 559.
The House can also speak to the seven District Schools Inspectors in Harare who gave the directives whose contact phone numbers are as follows:-
- Warren Park – Mabelreign District, Mr. Masaraure - 0738255291
- Mbare – Hatfield District Inspector, Mr. Chinooona – 0772 109402
- Highglen District Inspector, Dr. Mavhundutse
- Glenview-Mufakose District Inspector, Mr. Nyambuya – 0712940663
- Chitungwiza District Inspector, Mrs. Ncube – 0772405 212
- EP-Mafara District Inspector, Mrs. Mugumbate – 0772405212
- Northern Central District Inspector, Mr. Mafukidze – 0772693220
The SDCS of these schools listed and their phone numbers are available. They are ready to come and testify to this Senate that indeed they transferred the SDC Funds to SS Fund Account as per the directive from the Ministry of Primary and Secondary Education District Schools Inspectors in their districts.
Further to that Madam President, the SDCs in Harare and Chitungwiza are also ready to testify that indeed they met and discussed with the Minister and his Permanent Secretary together with their line management early 2016 at Queen Elizabeth School in regard to the directive of transferring SDC funds to SSF.
The effects of Dr. Dokora’s conduct in Parliament have the potential to impair and undermine the role and authority of Parliament in the discharge of its constitutional mandate.
In view of the foregoing, it is my view that there is possible contravention of the provisions of the Privileges, Immunities and Powers of Parliament Act (PIPPA), Chapter 2:08 and that the following offences of the Schedule (Appendix C) of the Privileges and Immunities and Powers Act were violated by Dr. Dokora:
- Presenting false information with the intention of misleading the House; ii. Standing Order Number 12 states that:
Publishing a defamatory statement concerning a Senator in respect of his or her conduct as a Senator as published in the Hansard about me when I spoke the truth.
Accordingly, I ask the President of the Senate to make a ruling.
Thank you Madam President.
THE HON. PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE: Thank you Hon.
Sen. Khumalo. I will study the matter and make a ruling in due course.
MOTION
RATIFICATION OF THE LOAN AGREEMENT BETWEEN THE
GOVERNMENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF ZIMBABWE AND THE
KUWAIT FUND FOR ARAB ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, MECHANISATION AND IRRIGATION DEVELOPMENT (HON. DR. MADE) on behalf of THE MINISTER OF FINANCE AND ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT (HON. CHINAMASA): I move the motion
standing in name of the Minister of Finance and Economic
Development;
THAT WHEREAS, Subsection (3) of Section 327 of the Constitution of Zimbabwe provides that an Agreement which is not an international treaty but which has been concluded or executed by the
President or under the President’s authority with one or more foreign organizations or entities and imposes fiscal obligations on Zimbabwe does not bind Zimbabwe until it has been approved by Parliament;
AND WHEREAS, a Loan Agreement was entered into between
Government of the Republic of Zimbabwe and the Kuwait Fund for
Arab Economic Development relating to Kuwaiti Dinars 6 million
(approx. US$20 million) Line of Credit to support the Zhove Irrigation
Project in Beitbridge District, Matebeleland South Province;
NOW THEREFORE, in terms of Section 327 (3) of the
Constitution, this House resolved that the aforementioned Agreement be and is hereby approved.
Madam President, I stand to represent the Hon. Minister of Finance and Economic Development, Hon. Chinamasa to make a presentation on the loan agreement for Zhove Irrigation project signed between the
Government of Zimbabwe and Kuwait Fund for Arab Economic
Development.
Madam President, the Government of the Republic of Zimbabwe and Kuwait Fund for Arab Economic Development signed a loan agreement for Kuwait Dinars 6 million (approximately US$20 million) to co-finance Zhove Irrigation Project on 24th March, 2017. The loan facility has a tenure of 25 years, inclusive of five year grace period and will attract an interest rate of 1.5% per annum, inclusive of 0.5% administration charges.
Madam President, this loan facility will support the production of citrus fruits in particular, as well as other cash and food crops such as maize, sugar beans, tomatoes, ground nuts and the construction of a conveyance system to supply adequate and sustainable water from Zhove Dam to irrigate about 2500 hectares of agricultural land.
Madam President, the project is expected to benefit more than 5000 households from the following communities and resettlement areas along the Mzingwane River in Beitbridge District, which include
Ferguson Ranch, Bishopstone Ranch, Cawood Ranch, Matetengwe
Communal lands, Mabidi communal lands and Malala communal lands.
Madam President, the implementation of the project should lead to enhanced socio-economic development to the communities and resettled farmers in the project area and country at large in the following ways:
- It will improve food security in the southern parts of the country;
- It will create employment and income generating opportunities for farmers and in particular youths and women; iii. It will support the juice processing industries in Beitbridge; iv. Generate foreign currency through exports of citrus products and vegetables;
- It will benefit the livestock farmers in terms of crop residues that can be used to feed livestock and the broad range of livestock.
Madam President, the total cost of the project is $35.7 million of which the Government of Zimbabwe will contribute $7 million and the $20 million has been provided for by the Kuwait Fund. The
Government of Zimbabwe has since approached the Abu Dhabi for International Development to provide the remaining balance of US$8.7 million. The negotiations are at an advanced stage and we expect to reach the final closure before the end of the year.
Madam President, the Ministry of Agriculture, Mechanisation and Irrigation Development will be the executing agent responsible for the implementation of the project. In order to ensure the smooth implementation of the project, a Project Management Unit (PMU) will be established under the said Ministry to oversee the day to day operations of the project. The project is earmarked to commence before end of 2017 and will be implemented over a period of four years.
Madam President, I therefore commend the Kuwait Fund Loan
Agreement for the Zhove Irrigation Project in the sum of Kuwait Dinars
6 million (approximately US$20 million) for approval of this august Senate. I thank you.
HON. SEN. NYAMBUYA: Thank you very much Madam
President. I would like to say just a few words in support of what the
Minister of Finance and Economic Development has brought before the House. We are talking of real issues here. We are talking of borrowing money and when we borrow money we are talking of debt creation. In my view and I think it is accepted in the fields of economics and public administration, that borrowing must always be tempered with the need not to burden future generations. Therefore when we borrow, it is wise and important that we borrow not for consumption but for infrastructure development. I have examined this particular loan. In my view, it is a move which is going to enhance the capacity of the people of Beitbridge district and areas surrounding. It is not only going to enhance and empower them but we are talking of actually creation of sound agricultural infrastructure which is going to last for quite a long time. The second aspect I have examined is one of interest. The interest in this particular loan is just 1% per annum, and it is very few places in this world where you get interest rates of 1% per annum. So, I think it is a very wise decision which the Minister has taken, well calculated and it is going to help the development of this country.
The third aspect which I have looked at is the issue of capacity to repay the loan. Now, we can only talk of the capacity to repay the loan if the people who are going to be involved in the project know what they are supposed to be doing. The must be trained and capacitated so that they can produce goods and services which are in demand inside Zimbabwe and beyond. I have studied this particular loan details, the term sheet and I am very impressed in that this package actually includes training for the farmers. There is a training package, consulting package and institutional support as well as project management.
Madam President, I believe this is a very wise move which is going to empower the people of Beitbridge and surrounding areas. It is also going to add a building block in our infrastructure development which is a key facet of any nation which wants to develop sound infrastructure. Above all, it is going to empower rural people so that they can produce goods and services which are actually in demand and will actually move towards eradicating poverty amongst our people in this country. So, I fully support this Madam President and I think this is a move in the right direction. I thank you.
*HON. SEN. MAVHUNGA: Thank you Madam President. I
want to raise my voice in accepting the motion brought by the Minister of Finance and Economic Development that we support the loan that would be in aid of infrastructural development in terms of irrigation. This will help people close to 5000 and will lead to creation of employment of people to work on 2500 hectares. Ever since the land reform, the citrus sector has had serious challenges because our people were not enlightened in that regard. A lot of citrus trees were not being looked after well. So, this programme can assist in the revival or revamping of citrus and it will improve the health of our people.
This loan is at a concessionary rate of 1.5% and as Ministry of Agriculture, Mechanisation and Irrigation Development, as the implementers, they should empower the agricultural extension services so that the farmers can benefit from the expertise of that particular department. They should ensure that they give the extension officers transport so that they can easily access the people. With those few words, I put my seal of approval to the acceptance of this loan.
*HON. SEN. MAWIRE: Thank you Madam President. Let me
start by saying good afternoon. When there is a good thing people would want to exaggerate it. I am happy with what the Minister of Finance and Economic Development has brought and this is what the country is looking for. I am in total support of his motion because we are talking about dams that need to be utilised. He has come up with a way to ensure that the dams are fully utilised so that our local people can utilise the water supplies through irrigation and that they will become self sufficient thereby create jobs in their communal lands instead of us coming to the city or urban centres to look for jobs.
You did this not for yourself but for the rest of us and we accept it. This is a good loan and it has a concessionary rate. As a country, let us not humiliate ourselves by failing to repay the loan. Those that are going to benefit from the use of irrigation should be enlightened that the main purpose is to create employment and that the loan needs to be repaid so that they can work hard. Once they work hard, their produce will be sold and Minister, you will have money to repay for this loan. I am in agreement with the previous speaker that the Ministry of Agriculture, Mechanisation and Irrigation Development should work hard.
We once raised a motion concerning the non-mobility of agricultural extension officers and we now say that they should be near these dam infrastructure and houses built for them so that they can be easily accessible to the community.
I am much happier by the fact that Matabeleland South is a dry and arid place which we once toured with our Committee; nothing can be grown in that area without irrigation. You are going to be a shining example of a Minister because you have come up with the correct solution for this dry region. Other provinces are not going to be jealous of that project because they know that this region need assistance through water. We are also going to be proud that during our term as Senators, we approved this particular loan. We thank you, please be happy and enjoy yourselves. No-one will be displeased in this august Senate. I thank you Madam President.
+HON. SEN. KHUMALO: Thank you Madam President. I also want to add my voice on the motion brought by the Minister of Finance and Economic Development together with the Minister of Agriculture,
Mechanisation and Irrigation Development. We want to thank the two Ministers because this is one thing that will improve our economy especially to the people who are coming from Beitbridge and
Matabeleland South. Mostly, when people are doing their farming they engage extra farm services and this is another job creation opportunity. We know that once they are employed it will assist them in buying their daily requirements. Whatever they will be buying is due to the fact that they have adequate funding and it will also improve our cash flow challenges.
When people engage in proper farming then they will be able to sell their produce and earn the much needed cash for them especially the parents when paying fees for their children. It is difficult for a parent to send their children to school when they do not have finances. The dams and infrastructure that are going to be created will cause a multiplier effect especially when seeking healthcare facilities for their families – it will also be of assistance on that note. We also realised that it also improves the nutrition of the surrounding people as they will be able to produce different food stuff. This will also curb the prevalence of diseases.
My hope is that the Ministry of Agriculture, Mechanisation and
Irrigation Development will be able to educate people on ploughing different types of food stuffs that we can get. It is important for the Ministry of Agriculture, Mechanisation and Irrigation Development to educate them on how to plough different farm products so that they can balance their nutrition. It is equally important for them to be taught that as farmers they should also benefit and consume their farm produce. I urge the Ministry of Agriculture, Mechanisation and Irrigation Development to also conduct outreach programmes to teach people how to plough and consume their farm produce.
The project that you have brought Hon. Minister is a noble one but the point that I want to emphasize is, please try to educate people on balancing the nutrition.
+THE HON. PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE: Thank you
Hon. Khumalo for also adding on the nutrition.
HON. SEN. MARAVA: Thank you very much Madam President
for affording me this opportunity to talk about this loan that we are about to entertain.
Madam President, I particularly welcome the idea of financing this project which is worthy but I do so with a lot of reservations because creditors must be happier than debtors. In our case we always seem to be very happy when a certain somebody decides to lend us some money. I do not know how much we now owe the world and I do not know whether we will ever be able to repay those debts - [HON. SENATORS: Hear, hear.] - Whilst the loan is most welcome because we cannot do without it since we cannot finance our own projects, we must remember like has been alluded to by one Hon. Senator, that we must not do things that will burden the future generations. That point is very important
Madam President because - [HON. SENATORS: Hear, hear.] – This is the reason why they are charging us interest and that is why it is called a loan. Debtors must learn to celebrate less than creditors because creditors have earned the interest through lending. When they find a market to lend their money where it will gain them and generate income, everybody will do it.
Madam President, we must do these things with utmost care. I do not know how much in debt this country is but I believe we must be up to our noses now. I would love it if the Hon. Minister could pass through it and inform us how much we now owe to the international community and also talk about the security. How are we going to curb the corruption by our leaders in this country? How we will be sure the money will be used for the intended beneficiaries? – [HON.
SENATORS: Hear, hear.] – We do not come here to praise each other when we are actually sinking into debt.
This money is going to be used on capital projects which are very much welcome because these are fixed assets that cannot be easily destroyed. We must also remember that some intended beneficiaries of the Zambezi River Project have died and not seen the light of what has been promised. – [HON. SENANTORS: Hear, hear.] – We must be very careful when we incur some debts. I think that whilst mentioning the precedent of the Zambezi River Project, I want to say let this not be the same uniform. Once something has been said by Government, our people out there take it as a serious issue and are waiting to see the results. Now that this project is going to commence this year, including myself, we will be waiting to see because at times we have waited for things that never materialize.
In conclusion, I would like to say Hon. Minister, this is a most welcome project because it is food brought to the doorsteps of our community which is something we have always yearned for. I do not yet know whether it is going to be real but we are happy that you are here and have tabled it. I want to rest my case that way and say; please let us not sink too much into debt and if you could just inform the House as to how much we owe the international community now. – [HON. SENATORS: Hear, hear.] - Okay Madam President, I withdraw my last statement. I thank you.
THE HON. PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE: It is permissible
since you were airing your personal views on the matter.
+HON. SEN. A. SIBANDA: Thank Hon. Madam President. I
want to thank the Hon. Minister for tabling this motion which is one of the motions that we really prioritise especially when it is being debated in this House. I am also adding my voice in support of what the other Hon. Senator was saying that we should not always be happy about being debtors. We also want to know how much we owe the international community and in addition, since it is a loan, how much we will be taking and interest to be paid. We also want to know whether the outstanding loans have been settled or not. Please, try to inform the House on those issues.
Hon. Minister, I want to say what is in my heart. My desire is - yes, this is a very good programme but it should not be like the Gwaai Shangani programme that towards elections there has to be a very good programme that should be ongoing. We have been waiting for this project but to date it is still in its infant stages reflecting that nothing much has been done on that project. Without even mentioning the Zambezi Water project that we were promised would be a green belt up to South Africa, my desire is that the Cabinet that administers over all the projects that are passed in this House, implements all the projects.
We also have the Nyamadhlovu project and in this world there is no other country that has such an aquifer that we have. If only that dam is fully utilized and boreholes drilled, I know it is one thing...
*HON. SEN. CHIPANGA: On a point of order Madam
President. May I request that we confine ourselves to the issue of the loan? Is it what we want or not? If we do not want it then people should indicate that they do not want it. The Gwaai-Shangani River – everyone wants water from it but we do not have money.
+HON. SEN. A. SIBANDA: I was trying to highlight to the Minister and make him aware. It is not that I am not agreeing to the project that he wants to bring especially after mentioning the issues to do with livestock. I am just trying to make him aware of the other commitments that were made previously. All I am saying is that all the projects that we start should be completed before we start other projects. We should not continue to start projects and leave them half way. If we start a project in Binga, let us complete that one first before we move on to Muzarabani. What I am against is starting in Binga, we do not finish then go to Tsholotsho, start another project and we do not finish again. All these projects are under the same loan programme. Loans might be good especially in this economy that we have. It is alright but let us complete the projects. I do not want to mislead or insult the House…
THE HON. PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE: Yes, we know
you are right but I am just appealing to you to stick to the motion please.
+HON. SEN. A. SIBANDA: Hon. Minister, thank you for the
project that you want to start in Beitbridge because it is a project that will also create job opportunities. What we have since noticed is that three quarters of the time, the students that complete “O” level go to South Africa and improve that country. Let us try and push this programme to completion. Hon. Minister, when we ask you about how far you will have progressed, do not feel insulted because we will just be making a follow up on the project that is being done. Even the livestock programme should be pushed to completion for the benefit of everyone. We want to thank even the Minister of Finance and Economic
Development for bringing such a programme. My desire is to see all the loans that were taken paid back so that we do not leave our children with a legacy of debt. I thank you.
HON. SEN. NDHLOVU: Madam President, I come from
Matabeleland South and I am part of Beitbridge. Thank you Minister. Beitbridge has always had problems of water and even after such a good rainy season, the area is still dry. If the Beitbridge dam is going to be constructed up to completion, my wish is for them to also look at other districts within the area so that we have enough water conserved. If the Beitbridge dam is completed, I think job opportunities will also be created. Even our children will refrain from migrating to South Africa, especially those in Matabeleland South. When they go to South Africa, they work on farms. So if they are kept here and are employed here, we will be happy as parents because in South Africa and other places that they migrate to, they are ill-treated. With these few words, I want to thank the Minister for bringing water to Matabeleland South.
*HON. SEN. GOTO: I rise to add a few words to this motion.
Firstly, I would like to thank our Minister of Agriculture standing in for the Minister of Finance and Economic Development for bringing this motion. I am grateful for the loan agreement that has come from Kuwait to assist the people of Zimbabwe in the Matabeleland South region. The interest is said to be 1.5% per annum. I am grateful that the loan has been targeted for Matabeleland South, a dry and arid region, this is a good move. Let us support good moves when they are made. We should be happy for people in Matebeleland South. I am aware that they are suffering. I hear that a lot of irrigable crops are to be grown such as beans and fruits and also rearing of livestock, so there is going to be that benefit.
I heard others saying that we should not have such debts, nothing can move but the country can develop because of debt. Personally, you need a loan to develop yourself and if you do not do that you will not develop. All farmers are into agriculture because of loans. I strongly support that we take this loan and work hard so that we will be able to repay the loan. That is what we should encourage one another. Our agricultural extension workers should be trained.
From time immemorial, this country has been borrowing, there is no one who does not borrow. I thank you Hon. Minister for having brought this motion. I support your motion. I thank you.
*HON. SEN. MASHAVAKURE: Thank you Madam President
for affording me this opportunity. Where I grew up, no one died because of a debt, that is why the Reserve Bank of Zimbabwe is availing the Credit Reference Bureau so that those who are in good standing in terms of borrowing can always borrow and as a country we will be in that category. Since last year we have been paying IMF loans and we are mending our ways. We have four to five years grace period for this loan and we pay 11/2 % of US$20 million, which is US$300 000. If we have the will, we will be able to repay. This is because if you pay US$1million, you would have paid the interest plus the principal amount.
There are people who work in farms in some areas in Midlands, Masvingo and Chipinge who are into livestock and growing citrus fruits such as oranges. We have experienced workforce and we are happy about it. However, the Minister should clarify one or two things. He said there is US$8 million that he is negotiating from Abu Dhabi. Is the US$8 million also subject to our accessing the US$20 million? Will those who want to give us US$8 million want to disburse it? What is the relationship between the US20 million and the US$8 million? Is it that if we fail on the US$7/8 million, we will still receive the US$20 million? I thank you.
HON. SEN. MAKONE: Thank you Madam President for giving me this opportunity to add my voice to this very important motion before us. I want to thank the Minister of Agriculture together with the Minister of Finance for bringing this ratification before us. However, I want to sound a word of caution Madam President.
In this country, we have so many irrigation projects that are idle and have broken down. What we are now lacking is supervision to make sure that these projects achieve what they are supposed to do. Where they are operating, the farmers are finding it difficult to find a market for their produce because they are competing with South African farmers for the same products. South African farmers are getting licences to bring vegetables and all types of food that is produced locally into our supermarkets where our farmers cannot compete price-wise with South African farmers. South African farmers produce cheaply.
Would it not be a good idea Hon. Minister, if you are going to do something like this; demonstrate that you still have agricultural extension services? When a project like this is put in place, products are produced at affordable prices and you restrict import permits to only those things that Zimbabwe cannot produce itself so that these things can actually be sold and farmers are able to pay back their loans. Without that, all we could be doing here is accruing more and more debts which we will never be able to pay back because the farmers are not protected.
There are so many horticultural projects in this country including my own, which are now redundant. We are sitting on 11 brand new green houses, fully kitted but we cannot compete price-wise with the South African markets even though the product is of the same quality because the cost of inputs is very high. So, we need the Minister of Agriculture, Mechanisation and Irrigation Development to put us on an equal footing with South African producers so that our people who end up consuming what we produce can buy at those lower rates that we are currently afforded. I am fully in support of this particular loan, but I want to just raise an alarm, that let it not be another one where we cannot pay because we have no markets. Once we go into agriculture, it is incumbent upon you Hon. Minister to ensure that the farmers can actually sell their product within the country, let alone export. Thank you Madam President.
+HON. SEN. MKHWEBU: Thank you Madam President. I
stood up to thank the two Ministers who have brought such a brilliant idea, the Minister of Agriculture, Mechanisation and Irrigation
Development, Hon. Made and the Minister of Finance and Economic Development, Hon. Chinamasa. I support this motion that they have brought to this House for assisting at Zhove Dam. It is one of the dams that people from Matebeleland benefit from especially after fishing, they get their meals there. It is one dam where people get nutrition out of and is always spoken about by Hon. Sen. Khumalo.
So Hon. Minister, I support your motion and if you work on this dam, especially during the rainy season where most of the times the dam overspills and if it is repaired, I know we are going to benefit much on irrigation. We have had oral evidence in my Committee and when we asked them, they indicated that in Matebeleland they get plenty of maize especially that which is put under irrigation. They expressed the fact that if only they could get another dam where they can do irrigation. Yes, I know that it is going to be a loan, but we know that Matabeleland as a rainbow province is going to benefit a lot from it. I thank you Madam President.
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, MECHANISATION AND IRRIGATION DEVELOPMENT (HON. DR. MADE) on behalf THE MINISTER OF FINANCE AND ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT (HON. CHINAMASA): Madam President, I want
to thank the Hon. Senators for supporting the project. There have been questions that have been raised. I will only comment on what is pertinent to the presentation that I made on behalf of the Minister of Finance. I want to say that this project is already supported on the basis that there are also commodities that are wanted in the country, region and also in the Middle East in terms of some of the commodities that I have mentioned, particularly fruit and vegetables.
So, very careful consideration was given to the fact that the farmers must be able to repay. The main beneficiaries are smallholder farmers. We will make special attention to make sure that the farmers are trained. I want to agree with the Hon. Senators who have put emphasis on the extension workers that if we can build for them to stay right into the project, we should do that. The value justifies that we do that. In actual fact, all our projects across the country are now going to have special dedicated extension people.
I want to clarify that when we talk of an extension worker, we must also remember that there are specific departments that will also have specialists like the Department of Irrigation. It has its own extension specialists, not the general extension workers. So, they will be working together and there will also be other teams from the mechanisation division.
I want to say that on the loan situation, whether the $20 million is precedent to what the Government of Zimbabwe should raise and the Abu Dhabi fund that we are negotiating, the two are separate. The Government contribution is already related to the administration costs and so on, that are already going into the project under the PSIP. So, that is already there. The balance that we are now negotiating without prejudicing the negotiations, we are confident that we will get that particular balance.
Let me say that the other comments related to the broader loan portfolio, I will be very happy to take the specific question in writing so that the Minister of Finance can give greater details to the other outstanding loans. Madam President, there is no question on that if it is put in writing, it will be responded to with the details that the Hon.
Senators want.
+I want to thank the Hon. Member who brought the issue of nutrition. We really try to encourage people to farm different products that will balance their diet. On the nutrition, the will do the fruit and vegetable especially on horticulture. We will try to make it to be comprehensive. We know that when you do your farming, your family will benefit from that and it is something that we will emphasise on. We must also give the animal protein to our children and to the adults as well. So, on that, we agree.
I also want to agree with Hon. Sen. Makone. Indeed, I am very much aware of the investment that our farmers have made, not only in horticulture. We are intensifying horticulture infrastructure, irrigation infrastructure, the poultry sector for example, and we have a right under the rules to make sure that our farmers are also looked after in terms of the permits that she has referred to. What we must make sure is that as we have projects in the drier parts of the country, we give this horticulture production balance. What we can produce in the high rainfall areas, low rainfall areas by intervening with irrigation, it means the domestic supply will be consistent. That is why the Government has got a Committee in the Office of the President looking at removing the barriers of ease of doing business. So the comments that the Senator has made are very pertinent and I take note of it that we should look after ourselves.
When we introduced the special maize programme for import
substitution, this was the purpose to be self sufficient so that we do not import. We save foreign currency for other important issues. We want to support domestic consumption with all the commodities including livestock. Madam President, without diverting and because I have mentioned livestock, and soon we will be launching the livestock command programme and it will have elements that are supported by irrigated pastures. We are also going to introduce that. I want us to remember that livestock is not cattle alone. It is dairy, wildlife farming and fisheries. I agree and take all caution by Senator Nyambuya that we must not leave debts for our children.
I want to thank all the Hon. Senators for supporting a project of this nature without being deterred. Madam President, I now move that the motion be adopted.
Motion:
THAT WHEREAS, Subsection (3) of Section 327 of the Constitution of Zimbabwe provides that an Agreement which is not an international treaty but which has been concluded or executed by the
President or under the President’s authority with one or more foreign organisations or entities and imposes fiscal obligations on Zimbabwe does not bind Zimbabwe until it has been approved by Parliament;
AND WHEREAS, a Loan Agreement was entered into between
Government of the Republic of Zimbabwe and the Kuwait Fund for
Arab Economic Development relating to Kuwait Dinars 6 million
(approx. US$20 million) Line of Credit to support the Zhove Irrigation
Project in Beitbridge District, Matebeleland South Province;
NOW THEREFORE, in terms of Section 327 (3) of the
Constitution, this House resolved that the aforementioned Agreement be and is hereby approved.
Motion put and agreed to.
MOTION
REPORT OF THE 40TH PLENARY SESSION OF THE SADC –
PARLIAMENTARY FORUM
Second Order read: Adjourned debate on motion on the Report of the 40th Plenary Session of the SADC – Parliamentary Forum held in Harare, Zimbabwe.
Question again proposed.
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, MECHANISATION AND IRRIGATION DEVELOPMENT (HON. DR. MADE): I move
that the debate do now adjourn. Motion put and agreed to.
Debate to resume: Thursday, 13th July, 2017.
MOTION
FIRST REPORT OF THE THEMATIC COMMITTEE ON
INDIGENISATION AND EMPOWERMENT ON THE
CIRCUMSTANCES SURROUNDING THE NON-ESTABLISHMENT
OF THE COMMUNITY SHARE OWNERSHIP TRUSTS
Third Order read: Adjourned debate on motion on the First Report of the Thematic Committee on Indigenisation and Empowerment on the Circumstances Surrounding the Non-Establishment of Community Share Ownership Trusts in Mudzi and Mutoko districts.
Question again proposed.
*HON. SEN. MATIIRIRA: Thank you Mr. President for giving me this opportunity. I would like to thank Hon. Sen. Tawengwa who raised this motion. I am a member of that Committee. On MudziMutoko Community Share Ownership Trust, we did not see anything tangible to show that the project is progressing well. Our expectation is that when such a project has been started in the district, development and employment will have come to the district and those families that are within the district benefit. We expect the people to benefit from the natural resources. Once such a project has been started in the districts, there should be follow-ups to see how well the projects are progressing. CSOTs should be followed and there should be monitoring mechanisms, and remedial action taken because a stitch in time saves nine.
My further plea Mr. President, is that we found it important that the chiefs are leading the CSOTs. It was because it had been observed that such districts had such natural resources. The Committees should work hand in glove with the chiefs. Natural resources need people to put their heads together. I come from a mining environment. Other people fail to harness the gold because of issues that require the attention of the chiefs. I urge people to have a good relationship between the Committee and the chiefs. I also urge the entire country in terms of resources that we travel around the ten provinces and observe what the CSOTs are doing in various areas because time is running out. We got a tip of the iceberg when we visited Mutoko and Mudzi Community Share
Ownership Trust. Even if they come here and give us oral evidence, it is important to verify things through mission visits on the ground. I thank you.
+HON. SEN. MKHWEBU: I want to thank Hon. Sen. Tawengwa who brought this report on the Committee on Indigenisation and Empowerment that emphasised a lot on CSOTs. I second the report as it brought out because what it said is something that we were given by God especially in rural areas. I know almost all the areas in this country do a lot of mining. My question is whether the Minister who is responsible for mining is taking note that almost everyone is doing mining everywhere. There are illegal gold panners who are mining their gold causing a lot of soil erosion and at the end of the day, we realise that it is causing even danger to the lives of people and our animals. Yes
Mr. President, we want gold and whatever that is being mined but how is Zimbabwe going to look like at the end when those miners are mining and do not close all the holes that they create when they are doing their mining – whether it is a legal or an illegal miner, the holes that are being created – my question is, who is going to fill up those holes? Yes, we want all the minerals that are being mined and with the few words that I have said Mr. President, I would like to urge the Minister to have a relook especially at the holes that are created when we do our mining when we extract whatever mineral. I thank you Mr. President.
HON. SEN. TAWENGWA: I move that the debate do now
adjourn.
HON. SEN. MASUKU: I second.
Motion put and agreed to.
Debate to resume: Thursday, 13th July, 2017.
MOTION
FIRST REPORT OF THE THEMATIC COMMITTEE ON
SUSTAINABLE DEVELOPMENT GOALS ON SDG NO. 3
Fourth Order read: Adjourned debate on motion on the First Report of the Thematic Committee on Sustainable Development Goals on SDG
No. 3.
Question again proposed.
*HON. SEN. TIMVEOS: Thank you Mr. President. I would want to thank Hon. Sen. Chief Mtshane for the Report of the Thematic Committee on SDGs in relation to SDG No. 3 which says health is important to everyone from children to the elderly. This is an important SDG and I would want to thank the Committee for having worked so hard. They visited hospitals and also met with the Ministry and scrutinised SDG No. 3. I also scrutinised their report and observed that there are a lot of things that are lacking in this country for us to fulfill SDG No. 3 and bring it to fruition as we are still far from getting the right things regarding SDG No. 3.
Mr. President, we should closely look at such issues of food and nutrition which Hon. Sen. Khumalo regularly talks about that it is important. You would see that from the report by Hon. Sen. Chief
Mtshane’s Committee, it shows that our health situation is not right in this country. The children and the elderly have a serious challenge in terms of their health; and in pregnant women, the majority of them are delivering children that are not healthy because of their own health. So as a country, we should make sure that we do a lot of good things about it. I was looking at the figures; 37 000 pregnant women may suffer from malnutrition in this country. This figure is on the high side and the stunting growth is 27%, surely we need to look into this.
When the Committee was carrying out its investigations, they discovered that in the majority of hospitals, the machinery which they actually have may need small amounts of money for them to be repaired but these hospitals are unable to have even such small funding for those machines to be repaired. As a country, we should ensure that all our hospitals are operating at optimum levels so that our people can benefit.
The Committee also observed that Government owes NatPharm $27 million and this maybe the reason why some drugs now have to be imported because NatPharm was producing drugs locally. The Committee urges the Government to pay outstanding debts that it would have incurred especially in the health sector. In terms of noncommunicable diseases, the Committee observed that such diseases are on the rise and in truth, this is the position.
I am the Chairperson of the HIV/AIDS Thematic Committee and two or three works ago, we travelled. We went to hospitals in Silobela to also observe how ART is being administered, especially in terms of cancer and diabetes – things are not well and they are not looking good. A few days ago, I heard news from ZiFM Radio Station that in the surrounding SADC countries, Zimbabwe has the highest mortality rate of cervical cancer. As the Upper House of Parliament, in Silobela we saw that there is a machine called a cryo gun being used in a case study that is being held in Silobela. This cryo gun costs $600 and gas is used to operate it. They are testing it and it has helped a lot of women with cervical cancer. Once cervical cancer is detected in its early stages, the woman can be treated. It is my plea to this august House that we should assist one another and ensure that the cryo gun be available in all parts of the country, in all the district hospitals and clinics. Let us urge the Ministry of Health and Child Care to give us funding so that women do not continue to die.
I thank Hon. Sen. Chief Mtshane and his Committee with many recommendations that they made such as the numbers of the village health workers that they should be increased and that Government should pay its debts. Government should ensure that there are drugs in hospitals. Doctors are merely issuing prescriptions without dispensing drugs. You know that life is difficult. Today, as a Senator, I did not even have $2 in my bag and Hon. Sen. Mlotshwa bought food for me because at the Members’ Dining, they were saying they were not using ecocash or swipe. I was going to leave without eating until I was invited by Hon. Sen. Mlotshwa. What if one is sick and has been given a prescription to go and buy some medication, where will you get the money when you are failing to raise money to buy sadza? Our people are dying. They cannot afford to pay the user fees for ARVs. In
Zvishavane, the user fee is $4 and I have found two or three people saying they have failed to raise the user fee despite the fact that they had gone to collect their ARVs.
It is not all of us who can swipe. At service stations, if you go for swipe, they will tell you that the machine is no longer working and ecocash is not functioning. How are we going to survive? Health service will only be for the privileged and the poor are dying everyday.
We are burying people everyday.
As Hon. Members, you are told of death in the community and your whole salary will be gone. It is my plea that this important report brought by Hon. Sen. Chief Mtshane’s Committee needs our support. What they found out is the truth and I hope the Minister is going to take this report seriously and implement its recommendations. I thank you Mr. President.
*HON. SEN. CHIMBUDZI: Thank you Mr. President for
affording me this opportunity. I would want to briefly support the report brought by the Chairperson, Hon. Sen. Chief Mtshane and his
Committee. It is an important report as others have already alluded to.
They touched on a lot of issues as regards the people’s health. They went around hospitals such as Murehwa where there was an X-ray machine that was not operational. It was not assisting patients. We believe that since the Committee made such observations, you will be able to go back and assess why the machine is not operational because the Government has done its part.
We want to thank you once again that you exposed this issue through your findings. We want to thank Hon. Sen. Chief Mtshane for thanking the village health workers for the important work that they are doing and that they are important in terms of attainment of health.
Your report also touched on the issue of rape cases and that it is important that the police and hospitals should work together. This helps a lot because we know that in this country we do not like rape cases because it spreads diseases. If the police and hospitals work together, the child can be easily treated once it has been observed by the doctor that the child has been raped.
There was also mention of the debt. We are aware that we are experiencing hard times and that Government is burdened but we should try by all means to repay the debt so that our pharmaceutical companies can continue with their operations. We should not be dependent on donors but let us be self-sustaining and self-reliant. I am not saying that donors are bad but we should be self reliant because there will come a time when they will say that they have given Zimbabwe sufficient support and need to look at other countries needing the same support. We should always be ready to ensure that once donors leave, we will remain viable and self-sustaining.
We urge you to go round all the hospitals to assess challenges that these hospitals are facing. It makes their work easier because you will be carrying out your oversight role and your views will not be armchair ones but practical. I thank you for the good work that you have done and I also want to thank you Mr. President for the opportunity that you have afforded me.
HON. SEN. CHIEF MTSHANE: I move that the debate do now
adjourn.
HON. SEN. MLOTSHWA: I second.
Motion put and agreed to.
Debate to resume: Thursday, 13th July, 2017.
MOTION
FIRST REPORT OF THE THEMATIC COMMITTEE ON HIV AND
AIDS ON HIV AND AIDS IN INSTITUTIONS OF HIGHER
LEARNING IN ZIMBABWE
Fifth Order read: Adjourned debate on motion on the First Report of the Thematic Committee on HIV and AIDS on HIV and AIDS in institutions of higher learning in Zimbabwe.
Question again proposed.
*HON. SEN. MABUGU: Thank you Mr. President for giving me this opportunity to debate on the motion of HIV and AIDS in institutions of higher learning. It is a pathetic motion as I hear from the Committee. The mover of the motion and the seconder Hon. Timveos. I thank them for going round the country to find out the state of affairs in the various institutions in the country.
All I can say is that as women, we should not say that our girls are misbehaving because of failure to have sufficient food. We have children at home. From primary education, our child will be satisfied with the way of living that they will be having. They have never stolen someone’s packed lunch because of poverty. You condone such behaviour and teach them when they are young. It is our duty as mothers. We know that there are those that misbehave and are bound to misbehave and indulge in such activities. Once you have schooled your child on the right manner in which to behave, there are those that that disregard that but they will get their just rewards in the end. You are the parents. Your fathers are the fathers of these daughters or granddaughters. Why are you doing this to them? Would you want the same done to your daughter by your friend or an old man whom you know? It will hurt you.
So, please father, learn to respect other people’s daughters because they are also your daughters. If we do that, we will reduce these diseases. I heard that there are others that will then talk about different styles. Yes, they will be looking for such things but I would say to genuine school children, we are their leaders; we should treat them just like our own children.
Members of this august House should be well behaved. If you observe in most colleges, you meet some Hon. Members at these institutions of higher learning misbehaving. We should desist from this habit. Let us feel pity for our children. Children should be given lessons and contraceptives so that they can prevent HIV and AIDS.
With these few words, I thank you Mr. President.
HON. SEN. TIMVEOS: I move that the debate do now adjourn.
HON. SEN. MARAVA: I second.
Motion put and agreed to.
Debate to resume: Thursday, 12th July, 2017.
MOTION
ADOPTION OF A DRAFT PROTOCOL ON THE AFRICAN
CHARTER ON HUMAN AND PEOPLE’S RIGHTS ON THE RIGHT
TO NATIONALITY AND THE ERADICATION OF STATELESSNESS
IN AFRICA
Sixth Order read: Adjourned debate on motion on resolving situations of statelessness in our country.
Question again proposed.
HON. SEN. TIMVEOS: I move that the debate do now adjourn.
HON. SEN. MARAVA: I second.
Motion put and agreed to.
Debate to resume: Thursday, 12th July, 2017.
MOTION
ALIGNMENT OF THE EDUCATION ACT TO THE CONSTITUTION
Seventh Order read: Adjourned debate on motion on funds controlled by School Development Committees (SDCs) and School Development Associations (SDAs).
Question again proposed.
HON. SEN. KHUMALO: I move that the debate do now adjourn.
HON. SEN. MLOTSHWA: I second.
Motion put and agreed to.
Debate to resume: Thursday, 12th July, 2017.
On the motion of THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE,
MECHANISATION AND IRRIGATION DEVELOPMENT (HON.
- MADE), the Senate adjourned at Sixteen Minutes past Four o’clock p.m.
PARLIAMENT OF ZIMBABWE
Tuesday, 18th July, 2017
The Senate met at Half-past Two o’clock p.m.
PRAYERS
(THE HON. DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE in the Chair)
MOTION
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
HON. SEN. KHUMALO: Mr. President, I move that Order of the Day, Number 1 be stood over until the rest of the Orders of the Day have been disposed of.
HON. SEN. NCUBE: I second.
Motion put and agreed to.
MOTION
REPORT OF THE 40TH PLENARY SESSION OF THE SADC –
PARLIAMENTARY FORUM
Second Order read: Adjourned debate on motion on the Report of the 40th Plenary Session of the SADC – Parliamentary Forum held in Harare, Zimbabwe.
Question again proposed.
HON. SEN. MUMVURI: Thank you Mr. President, I want to add my voice to this motion raised by Hon. Sen. Mohadi and the seconder. Firstly, I want to express my concern that of the Hon. Members who attended as observers, there was no single Senator; all of them were from the Lower House. By virtue of being members, Hon. Sen. Mohadi and Hon. Sen. Mutsvangwa attended because there are members of that
Forum. On observation, I think in future, we must include both Houses – [HON. SENATORS: Hear, hear.] – Yes, I am speaking on behalf of everyone, we should not be marginalised at all. This is why we are debating it here. This report is in the Lower House but it is also here, they cannot debate on our behalf.
Mr. President, let me now go to the report itself. I also noted that they discussed several things which relate to our region. I am going to touch on two of them. The proposed formation of the regional Parliament is still an outstanding issue. I want to believe it has been going on for quite some time now without action being taken. It is imperative that a regional Parliament should be there.
However, I think there is also need that there should be at least some workshops of our Hon. Members here from both Houses for them to know what is going on in the Forum. Even the intention of forming a regional Parliament – because Hon. Members here do not know what is going on except those people who attend the Forum, yet I want to believe that the issues which they discuss there should have emanated from the national Parliaments and then they go there so that there is a buy in from us.
They discussed the issue of statelessness, that was the theme. I think we want to say the issue of statelessness has already been introduced into this Senate by one of the Senators who moved a motion and we are quite in tandem with that. We are trying to tackle the statelessness issue together with the regional body and us. So, we are not out of touch at all. I remember it was moved here by Hon Sen.
Timveos, it is on the Order Paper and we are debating that motion.
However, the reasons for statelessness still remain a concern to everyone and these include forced displacements because of conflicts.
Yes, they are bound to happen; it is not only peculiar in Africa. Inaccessibility of services by public administrators, surely that one should be coordinated. You cannot just give documents to everyone whom you do not know. This is why America and Europe are now in problem because they were too liberal. The bombings and terrorism going on there cannot be dissociated from liberalisation.
However, the other reason which was noted by the Forum which I want to agree with is the disintegration of traditional family bonds. That one is very important in African culture. We should try to revive this, the extended families and so forth so that we live together. If my brother dies, I should be in a position to get a birth certificate for my late brother’s child in my name so that it is a perpetuation of the family ties and they go on. This business of one man for himself is what is causing the rise in children born out of wedlock. So, I want to support family bonds. The disintegration of families is an unfortunate happening.
They also discussed the SADC Model law and again, I want to reiterate that this issue has been brought to this Senate already and we are discussing it. We are doing a lot there in tandem with the regional body which is still a forum and we are saying it must be transformed into a regional Parliament.
Let me go now to their recommendations which they gave and comment on them. They recommended that they should revive negotiations but I think they should revive efforts on the transformation of the SADC Parliamentary Forum into a legislative body quickly. They gave the timeframe to say by April 2017, but April has gone by. We want to know what has transpired since then because they gave that one as a timeline that something should be done by April 2017. We are already in July.
There is a recommendation that there should be a location of
Parliamentary Studies Institute at the University of Zimbabwe. The Secretary General was to write to our Minister of Higher and Tertiary Education here in Zimbabwe. There was no time limit there. I think it is a welcome development if it is pursued and then implemented. They also talked about raising awareness on the SADC Model law on eradicating child marriages and protecting those already in marriages. In all fairness, I think we did justice in this House to debate factors which militate against child marriages and what should be proposed there. We need to align our laws and this is where the regional effort should come in if it is done. We are not the only country which is guilty of child marriages – Mozambique and Malawi are on the top list and we should combine our efforts to eradicate this, otherwise we will go nowhere as a continent of Africa.
In addition, I want to specifically task the Portfolio Committee on
Justice, Legal and Parliamentary Affairs for leaving out their sister
Thematic Committee on Gender and Development in this House which is ably led by Hon. Sen. Makore. They have spoken quite loudly against child marriages here. I would also want to propose that the Thematic Committee on Gender and Development should also come in as well.
Again, it should not focus on one House.
The other point is to raise awareness on statelessness and I said that one is done. They gave a timeframe that it should be implemented in time for the next Plenary Assembly but they did not give a date for that. From my investigations, I think the next Plenary Session was supposed to be in May or June this year; May and June are gone by.
The other recommendation which they made was the increment in annual membership contribution by 10 per cent. They left this to say National Assemblies should consult with their governments. I do not know whether we have the capacity to increase by 10 per cent when we are struggling to pay the current contributions of R1.4m or N$1.4m per year.
I also picked from the report that Hon. Members should join the “I belong campaign”. This is a noble idea because we are what we are because of others. We must all join hands in order to live together as Africans. The extended families should not be broken and efforts should be put in place to encourage people to live together. The “I belong campaign” is a good idea if it is correctly done. We being Africans, I think you know what we talk about that we always live together. This is an effort to reduce statelessness. We are on course with discussions on this one.
They had a very good and successful conference and I note that Zimbabwe was hosting it for the fifth time. In the history of Zimbabwe we have had eight Parliaments and if we have hosted five times, I think we have done very well. Three quarters of our lives we have hosted these Plenary Sessions on SADC PF.
In conclusion, let everyone know what is going on at this regional body. Let us intensify our efforts to transform it completely from the Parliamentary Forum to a Parliament. A Parliament has got more power because they pass laws and enforce them. A Forum is just a talk shop because they do not have teeth to bite. We summon people here because we have Committees which have the mandate to do so. If it is transformed into a regional Parliament the better, so that we can move in tandem with global trends and modern practices like what the EU does. I do not know whether East Africa have a Parliament now but they are moving towards that. With those few words to the report of SADC
Parliamentary Forum, I thank you.
*HON. SEN. CHIEF CHARUMBIRA: Thank you Mr.
President. I am grateful for the report which was delivered to us by Senator Mohadi on the SADC Parliamentary Forum. I have noticed that there are about one or two issues which I may want to dwell on. I thank Hon. Sen. Mumvuri for the contribution he has made, so I will not repeat what he has said but I will talk about social fabric disintegration which he touched on.
I notice that we have since lost our culture and customs, not only in Zimbabwe but even in other countries. As Zimbabwe, we are happy that we are talking within SADC countries and we are talking about the cultures and normative values that they should go to the United Nations and be debated there. We have other issues which we are debating but I have got a feeling that we are skirting round the real issues and the truth is that we have done away with our culture and normative values. When we go to the Western countries, there is an issue which was debated by Hon. Sen. Makore on children’s homes and old people’s homes and I am giving this as an example. These are a new phenomenon.
In our traditional past and cultural past, old people used to be kept in their families and they would be looked after until they pass on.
When we talk about the people of yesteryear, they would survive up to a 100 years and what is happening now is we are ignoring our parents who are in their 60s or even 70s and we are booking them into these homes and they become inmates. The people who are paying these funds for their parents go for church services on Saturdays and Sundays and they pray to God. My question is will God accept you into heaven when you are ignoring your father or mother – [HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.] -
I will now turn to the other people who are a lost lot, the street kids. These have come about established because we have lost our culture. We used to believe in communal system. We talk about cousins and whatever it is but in our culture we do not have anybody who is called a cousin. When we refer to that somebody whom we are saying cousin, in our culture they are your brother or sister. Whether, they belong to your uncle or aunt, you simply call them brother or sister.
We do not have a way whereby we try and explain out the relationship. This Western culture which we have adopted has led us to ignore our relatives and we dump them. If you call the person your sister or brother, when you find them in the streets, you take them home because they are your relatives.
This culture of ours has led to the progress and prosperity of our culture, yet we now tend to borrow some foreign cultures, such as thieving or stealing. When we say do not steal, you should not take what is not yours and you will not be involved in corruption. If you are employed and you see some money in your office and you take that money as if it is yours, it is because you have lost your culture.
Let me turn to the parliamentary affair whereby we need to create a degree on parliamentary studies in our universities. I am saying, if we are to launch this degree on parliamentary studies we need to think twice about it. What I think is, we need to have a diploma or certificate because when somebody is awarded a degree, especially a doctorate degree they think they can go and treat people. This idea will be so misconstrued that when people attain the degree on parliamentary affairs, they think they can become Members of Parliament. They would want to come to Parliament and bulldoze.
I am therefore saying the people who would have attain a degree in parliamentary studies will have that notion that whenever there is going to be an election, they are people who should be given first priority because they have that degree. My feeling is that the studies should be undertaken by parliamentarians and councillors because they are already in this business and they know what to do. I thank you.
HON. SEN. MOHADI: I move that the debate do now adjourn.
HON. SEN. MAKONE: I second.
Motion put and agreed to.
Debate to resume: Wednesday, 19th July, 2017.
MOTION
FIRST REPORT OF THE THEMATIC COMMITTEE ON INDIGENISATION AND EMPOWERMENT ON THE
CIRCUMSTANCES SURROUNDING THE NON-ESTABLISHMENT
OF THE COMMUNITY SHARE OWNERSHIP TRUSTS
Third Order read: Adjourned debate on motion on the First Report of the Thematic Committee on Indigenisation and Empowerment on the Circumstances Surrounding the Non-Establishment of Community Share Ownership Trusts in Mudzi and Mutoko Districts.
Question again proposed.
HON. SEN. TAWENGWA: I move that the debate do now
adjourn.
HON. SEN. MOHADI: I second.
Motion put and agreed to.
Debate to resume: Wednesday, 19th July, 2017.
MOTION
FIRST REPORT OF THE THEMATIC COMMITTEE ON SUSTAINABLE DEVELOPMENT GOALS ON SDG NO. 3
Fourth Order read: Adjourned debate on motion on the First Report of the Thematic Committee on Sustainable Development Goals on SDG No. 3.
Question again proposed.
*HON. SEN. MURWIRA: Thank you Mr. President for giving
me this opportunity to make my contribution on this motion. This is regarding the report introduced by Hon. Sen. Chief Mtshane on
Thematic Committee on Sustainable Development Goals No. 3.
Mr. President, I would like to thank the Committee for moving on this fact finding mission and even came to Murewa and they noticed that at the hospital, there was a broken down X-ray machine which only needed a small amount of money to be repaired. I am urging the Ministry of Health and Child Care to source for funds to repair this machine so that patients may be treated.
Mr. President, I am also grateful to this Committee because during
the fact finding mission, they realised that there were a few health workers in these institutions. I am begging the Ministry of Health and Child Care to increase the number of health workers in these institutions so that there can be progress and health to the nation.
I am also looking at the youths because we talked about health and the young children, especially those under five. Mr. President, we have a problem with the modern day mothers. These modern day mothers are not proud of breastfeeding their children and yet according to our culture, children need to be breastfed until they attain the age of two. Therefore, I am begging the people of this country, especially the health workers to encourage nursing mothers to breastfeed their children instead of giving them supplementary foods.
Again, when I look at these children under the age of five, they have some vaccinations which they have to undergo. As a country, we should make it a point that these children are really vaccinated. However, we have problems, especially in my constituency in Seke. The apostolic sect does not take children for vaccinations. On the contrary, the adults seek for medical attention in health institutions, yet they deny that facility to their children. I am saying, as a nation, children should also be vaccinated. So, I am urging this august House to pass a law that will make it compulsory for all the children under five years to be vaccinated so that they are protected from the vagaries of these illnesses.
As a nation, we should pass on the health information to everyone so that they are aware of what is going on. This is so, because in our case, we started building health facilities in all the areas of Zimbabwe but unfortunately these are incomplete projects and people have to move long distances to access health services. Some of them even prefer dying peacefully or painfully in their homes because of fear of the distance that they have to travel to seek medical attention. I am very grateful to this hard working Thematic Committee which did this fact finding mission. I urge them to travel to all the other places in the country. I used to think this was only done to pass time but I have realised that we need to be healthy because even when we talk of
Zimbabwe being the bread basket of Southern Africa, we cannot carry out our agricultural activities when we are sick but we need to be healthy to be productive and progressive as a country. I thank you.
+HON. SEN. MLOTSHWA: Thank you Mr. President for
affording me the opportunity to debate. I am happy that all members of the Committee have debated thoroughly on this report. I would like to add just one thing because most of the things have been mentioned and I shall not repeat them. The only thing I would like to talk about is the
Traditional Healers’ Act, that is those who use traditional methods of healing people and the things that we used to do. As a Committee, we have called members of the associations which are related to traditional medicines and the Ministry would like to work in liaison with these tradition healers. If the traditional healers bring their own stuff it would probably help.
What we are looking at is the well being of a person in this SDG 3 report, the well being of all ages. When I look at the well being of all ages, it means people should eat well. I would like to make it clear in this august House that as Zimbabweans when it comes to issues of giving each other food, when there is food in the country and
Government is sourcing food under the Ministry of Public Service, Labour and Social Services the objective is to try and meet the well being of all ages. In this country our food is not distributed well. Those who are greedy, after taking that food, should remember that other people also need to eat so that they can be well and as a country, we can meet the requirements of SDG 3.
Now, we looking at HIV/AIDS, it is an endemic which is in our country. There is need for people to eat well to enable them to take their medication. When they do not eat well, it is the Government’s responsibility if they die because they will have failed to give them food because they will not have sung the required songs. When we look at traditional healers, we note that there are many plants in this country. I remember way back, during the drought times, there were certain plants which people would prepare drink or eat because the plant would help to fend off hunger. Let me also ask what we should do to those areas affected by drought and they cannot feed themselves. There is need for those who know the right plants to eat to open up and give that information to our scientists so that they can conduct researches on those plants and find out the efficacy of such plants’ medicinal or food properties. Since we have a Traditional Healers’ Act and the Ministry of Health and Child Care would like to liaise with the traditional healers, this issue should be broadly debated. There are some plants which we can use when we are hungry and some that we can use when we have diseases. These plants are being taken by other countries and being beneficiated into drugs and then we end up buying those drugs from those countries.
Let me also talk about matters of Ekusileni Hospital. This hospital was the vision of the late Cde Joshua Nkomo, father Zimbabwe, which is in Bulawayo. It is a good hospital, it was good for such problematic diseases and machines were placed there so that people could be helped to be well. There are some diseases that cannot be attended to because of the needed sophistication. If you compare Ekusileni and Mpilo hence, much difference between the two because of the particular congestion that you find at Mpilo. A doctor will not be able to operate properly there. That is why there was Ekhusileni for these diseases which were special and needed specialist attendance.
Government should quickly attend to Ekhusileni before it gets dilapidated. It is very good; there are just minor things that need to be attended to. There is probably need for someone to identify with the vision of the founder who had a vision for that hospital. It is important for that hospital to be functional so that people can get help. That hospital will not only serve the locals but it is for the well being of all Zimbabweans. With those few words, I thank you Mr. President.
+HON. SEN. MKHWEBU: Thank you Mr. President. I would like to thank the Chairperson of the SDGs, Hon. Sen. Mtshane and his seconder for bringing this motion. We have learnt a lot from this motion on SDG 3 We only conducted one outreach since our inception because there were no financial resources so that we could go around looking at matters related to the SDGs. Therefore on these SDGs, there are issues of the right to live, the well being of all age groups.
When we look at some of these things Mr. President, you will find that the aged live a difficult life in hospitals when they go there. They are not received as people who still have some time to live; they are looked at as people who are just about to die. They are given panadols and told to go back home. Can this be thoroughly examined because these people also want to live and that is why they visit the hospital but because of their age, they are despised and looked down upon.
In these hospitals, if you do not have US$20, you are told to go back home. We will continue debating; we want to look at the wellbeing of all age groups. They should be attended to well in hospitals but if they do not have money, they are not attended to in the hospitals. Where is the well-being there? One is admitted if they have US$20, and without that money you are send back home. The Government should thoroughly look at the matter of people without money, they should be attended to even on credit so that they pay later. At my provincial hospital in Gwanda, if one does not have money, they are sent back home.
We went to Murehwa and through discussions with people there on how they are being attended to, it was clear that there was a donor who had put in some financial resources so that anyone without money could be attended to. Therefore, Mr. President, if there is a donor looked for by the Government, that donor should cater for all hospitals so that people are helped because people do not have the money to pay. It is important for their health.
Again, women who are pregnant and also young mothers, there is no communication between the police and the parents. An under-aged girl is registered pregnant and gives birth and the person who would have impregnated that under-aged child goes without being arrested or justice done. There should be education on under-aged girls particularly in hospitals where under-aged pregnant young girls are registered. These hospitals just register these under-aged pregnant girls. When a child gets pregnant and is under-aged, the responsible person should be made accountable and persecuted.
The mothers’ health and welfare should also be looked into. The mother who is pregnant should be properly fed and the woman should be examined in hospitals. In some places, such services are not paid for but in some it is paid for. Some mothers end up visiting the hospital when they are about to give birth due to lack of money to register. The Government should look into such matters so that there will not be a high mortality rate by pregnant women because they do not have money to pay at the hospital.
We expect the well-being of all age groups to be looked into; they should be in good health through accessing health services and received well at hospitals. They should understand that people earn resources differently.
On the other hand, if a mother is not properly fed during pregnancy, she will not give birth to a healthy baby. A well-fed pregnant woman will give birth to a healthy baby who will grow well but if the pregnant woman is not well fed, the baby will not grow well.
Some of the babies may become obese; this is because of lack of resources to feed the mothers so that their children grow well.
Children who are being raped are attended to at hospitals without identifying the perpetrator who would have raped the child. That child will be under aged. It is important that people are made aware of such things so that they know about their life. Mr. President, there are many things that have been said on this Committee on SDGs since we conducted outreaches in hospitals. We went to Murehwa. There was no money for us to gather evidence on our own and to reach out to communities in hospitals so that we can implement what we agreed with other countries that by 2030, we will be at a particular state.
There was need for us to go on outreaches in communities so that by 2030, we would be able to meet the goals on these SDGs on health, wellness at all ages and in towns and rural areas. People value food which does not give them good health. When we grew up, we would eat small grains and they would make us strong. We would eat small grains like rapoko and sorghum, and our bodies would grow and would not be susceptible to diseases. With those words Mr. President, I thank you.
THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF ENERGY AND POWER
DEVELOPMENT (HON. SEN. MUZENDA): Thank you Mr.
President. I move that the debate do now adjourn.
Motion put and agreed to.
Debate to resume: Wednesday, 19th July, 2017.
MOTION
FIRST REPORT OF THE THEMATIC COMMITTEE ON HIV AND
AIDS ON HIV AND AIDS IN INSTITUTIONS OF HIGHER
LEARNING IN ZIMBABWE
Fifth Order read: Adjourned debate on motion on the First Report of the Thematic Committee on HIV and AIDS in Institutions of Higher Learning in Zimbabwe.
Question again proposed.
+HON. SEN. MKHWEBU: Thank you Mr. President – [AN
HON. SEN: Speak in Shona this time.]-
THE TEMPORARY PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE (HON.
SEN. CHIEF CHARUMBIRA): Order, Ndebele is a language which is
allowed in this House.
+HON. SEN. MKHWEBU: Thank you Mr. President. I would
like to thank Hon. Sen. Timveos, the Chairperson of this Committee. We went out as a Committee and visited a State University in Zvishavane. We talked to the students and what affected me most was that this university recruited too many students whereas it had no infrastructure to cater for those numbers. These students stay far away from the institution. So, the students were saying that their parents do not have enough resources to cater for their rentals outside the university. They were saying they are living a difficult life by approaching their bursars or sugar daddies who give them money to sustain their lives.
As such Mr. President, by virtue of the numbers of the children who are students in the country, it is important that they should be given grants. We have a lot of students and we are under sanctions. There is no way we can access the money to help our children so that they can have grants whilst they are attending their education. There are a lot of things that were said which were pertaining to the hardships faced by the students. If they could have those grants, they would help themselves. They were also saying even though they were being attended to their medicinal issues, they do not have enough machinery or infrastructure for them to be attended to at the health institution.
The girls who want to be examined, their uteruses particularly cervical cancer; it becomes so difficult because they end up queuing and going back to their school without being attended to. A lot of things were raised and others have said a lot. It seems I am now making a repeat of what was said by others. With those words Mr. President, I thank you.
*HON. SEN. MALULEKE: Thank you Mr. President. I would
like to say a few words on the motion which was raised by Hon. Sen.
Timveos. I would like to say they did a great job which is commendable, but they still have more to do despite the extent which they have done. On the fact finding, they discovered a lot of things and this is similar to what I watched on television whereby I was watching the programme on‘Positive Talk’ by lady Tariro. They talked about a place which is called Gaza. There were some children who were in that picture and when they were discovered at that place, they ran away because they knew that they were not supposed to be at that place. Hence, I am saying there are a lot of things going on at these tertiary institutions and some customs which these youngsters acquire.
Let me talk of the boys. They end up indulging in elicit brews and drugs and they end up getting sick. We noticed that when these children moved from their homes to these tertiary institutions, they end up trying to get extra support so that they can fend for themselves and they end up acquiring these STIs and other incurable diseases. My wish is that when we are debating such pertinent issues, the Ministers should be in this
House and listen to the debates so that they can source for funds. Again,
I realise that we do not have enough funds but when they are here, they would be listening and source for the funds because we know that in this modern day, our children are coming across some painful aspects of life and as parents, we need to be disseminating information to them.
I am saying we are a lucky lot because we have chiefs in this august House who I also beg that they should talk to the headmen so that our culture is upheld. We used to believe in communal punishment and advice to children. But as of now, if you were to try and give direction and advice to some of these youngsters, they would really give you an answer which would disturb you. They reply back and even their parents will also insult you for interfering with their children’s welfare. Therefore, I am begging that as Members of this august House; let us work hand in hand with our Government so that we look for ways of solving social problems which are in tertiary institutions or any other high schools.
I wish you would travel to all these institutions, especially in places like Chiredzi where people are getting money through sugarcane farming. Even in the cotton areas, you can visit those areas and you will be surprised by the disturbing life which is lived by the youngsters in such places whereby people want to eke a living by living dangerously. I am saying, there are some places which I wish you would visit and bring this information to this august House because when you look at this place, there is no discrimination by race, colour, creed or culture. We need to put our heads together and work with our chiefs in solving these cultural problems which are within us. I thank you.
HON. SEN. TIMVEOS: I move that the debate do now adjourn.
HON. SEN. MARAVA: I second.
Motion put and agreed to.
Debate to resume: Wednesday, 19th July, 2017.
MOTION
ADOPTION OF A DRAFT PROTOCOL ON THE AFRICAN
CHARTER ON HUMAN AND PEOPLE’S RIGHTS ON THE
RIGHT TO NATIONALITY AND THE ERADICATION OF
STATELESSNESS IN AFRICA
Sixth Order read: Adjourned debate on motion on resolving situations of statelessness in our country.
Question again proposed.
HON. SEN. MAKONE: Thank you Mr. President for giving me the chance to debate on this very important motion. Mr. President Sir, our Constitution states very clearly that anyone who was born in Zimbabwe is a Zimbabwean citizen but, we have so many people who are or were born in this country and they do not have citizenship. I am saying so because we call them aliens. You cannot be both an alien and a citizen at the same time. If you are an alien, you are not a citizen. The Constitution also says if either of your parents or your grandparents are Zimbabwean, you are a citizen of Zimbabwe and there are more than half a million of those people in this country who are still called aliens.
When someone is an alien and they do not also qualify to be a citizen of any other country because they were not born there, you have rendered that person stateless. We have so many individuals in this country Mr. President who we are rendering stateless because of not translating the spirit and letter of the Constitution. There is no Christian reason why those people are still required to go and renounce a citizenship which they have never possessed. You can only renounce something that you have.
Mr. President Sir, we can talk and talk in this House but, I honestly do not believe that we are doing any justice to our Government if we do not speak the truth to power. We need the Constitution to be put into place or practice as the three million people that voted for it required it to be.
Mr. President Sir, there are people who are now sleeping in the bush because they do not have papers and they were pushed away from the land that they had been residing on - they have no ruzevha. So what are we saying as a people? What are we doing? We are signatories to the SADC and the AU Protocols that say no one shall be on our lands and they are stateless, yet we have our children born in this country and they remain stateless. Unless and until I personally hear voices from all sides of the political divide in this country, I shall always hang my head very low and ashamed to call myself a Zimbabwean. We owe it to our Constitution and to the people of Zimbabwe to ensure that there is no child born on this soil who is stateless, especially that antiquated law of having to go and renounce citizenship – it works for somebody who had the citizenship.
Mr. President Sir, I cannot even carry on because I get so emotional when I start debating on something like this. I am not personally affected but I know thousands of people that are affected by this law and if we are Africans – real Africans in the sense of the word, vana vevhu. There is no way we should be allowing this to happen. Not on our land and not on our watch. I thank you Mr. President.
HON. SEN. TIMVEOS: I move that the debate do now adjourn.
HON. SEN. MARAVA: I second.
Motion put and agreed to.
Debate to resume: Wednesday, 19th July, 2017.
MOTION
ALIGNMENT OF THE EDUCATION ACT TO THE CONSTITUTION
Seventh Order read: Adjourned debate on motion on funds controlled by School Development Committees (SDCs) and School
Development Associations (SDAs).
Question again proposed.
*HON. SEN. CHIMHINI: Thank you Mr. President. I know that
the Minister responded to this motion, but firstly, I want to thank Hon. Sen. Khumalo for the research which she did and the evidence that she gave us in this House that truly the Minister went to schools and talked about the SS Fund. I do not agree that those schools which were found in possession of the letters were lying…
THE TEMPORARY PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE (HON.
SEN. CHIEF CHARUMBIRA): Order! I am advised that this
particular matter is now before the President of the Senate for adjudication to make a ruling to determine which direction we should go. So, maybe debating it would be like preempting what is already before a properly competent office. I plead with you to exercise patience and await the ruling by the President that should give us direction.
HON. SEN. CHIMHINI: On a point of order Mr. President. The
motion is still on the Order Paper, and in my view if it is on the Order Paper, it is subject to a debate. Given the advice you have given - I do not want to argue with you, but I want to believe it should have been removed from the Order Paper. As long as it is there, I think I am entitled to debate it.
THE TEMPORARY PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE: Sitting
here I am in a very unenviable position because those who have put this motion on the Order Paper are the same people who have advised me again that this should not be debated. So, I beg once more for your patience that since we are all aware that this matter is now before the President of the Senate for a ruling, maybe we can wait until the President of the Senate has made such a ruling. I believe there will be an opportunity once that is done to either debate or go whichever direction.
HON. SEN. CHIMHINI: Mr. President, I rest my case.
HON. SEN. KHUMALO: On a point of order. The days continue
to accrue and soon they will reach 21 days yet it is not being debated.
Because of that I think we need to debate it.
THE TEMPORARY PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE: I am
advised that you can actually adjourn the debate to tomorrow, Thursday or next week.
HON. SEN. KHUMALO: I move that the debate do now adjourn.
HON. SEN. CHIMBUDZI: I second.
Motion put and agreed to.
Debate to resume: Tuesday, 25th July, 2017.
On the motion of THE MINISTER OF DEFENCE (HON. SEN. DR. SEKERAMAYI), the Senate adjourned at Twelve Minutes to Four o’clock p.m.
PARLIAMENT OF ZIMBABWE
Wednesday, 19th July, 2017
The Senate met at Half-past Two o’clock p.m.
PRAYERS
(THE ACTING PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE in the Chair)
ANNOUNCEMENT BY THE ACTING PRESIDENT OF THE
SENATE
PRESENTATION OF 2016 ANNUAL BUDGET REVIEW AND 2017
ECONOMIC OUTLOOK STATEMENT
THE ACTING PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE (HON. SEN.
CHIEF CHARUMBIRA): I have to inform the Senate that the Hon.
Minister of Finance and Economic Development will present the 2016 Annual Budget Review and the 2017 Economic Outlook Statement tomorrow, Thursday, 20th July, 2017 at 1445 hours in the National Assembly Chamber. The Senate will view the presentation from the television screens in the Senate Chamber.
COMMITTEE STAGE
CONSIDERATION OF AN ADVERSE REPORT BY THE
PARLIAMENTARY LEGAL COMMITTEE ON THE LAND
COMMISSION BILL [H.B. 2A, 2016]
First Order read: Committee Stage: Consideration of an adverse report by the Parliamentary Legal Committee on the Land Commission
Bill, (H.B. 2A, 2016).
House in Committee.
THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (HON. SEN.
TAWENGWA): Hon. Senators, we are gathered here to consider the Adverse Report on the Land Commission Bill, (H.B. 2A, 2016) as was circulated by the PLC, the Hon. Member here, Hon. Ziyambi is representing Hon. Samukange, he is the Acting Chairperson and Hon.
Samukange is the Chairperson of that Parliamentary Legal Committee. The adverse report will then be discussed here and we will make recommendations to the President of the Senate when he resumes the
Chair.
The Committee of the whole House will now take into consideration the report from the Parliamentary Legal Committee on the Land Commission Bill (H.B. 2A, 2016).
HON. SEN. MAKONE: Thank you Chairman. At this stage, we
do not have any copies infront of us on what it is that we are discussing. I do not know whether it would be fruitful for us to agree or disagree with anything that you will be reading if we do not have anything infront of us. Thank you.
THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: The Adverse Report was
circulated.
HON. SEN. CHIEF CHARUMBIRA: I think for the benefit of
everybody and also that we are talking of the Constitution, I will debate in English because the things I want to talk about are in the Constitution. I want to say thank you everybody for the support during the debate. It is true the Adverse Report was presented by Hon. Samukange in this House and we do have copies of that. That was after the proposed amendments by Hon. Sen. Chief Mtshane had been tabled. In fact if we recall, the Bill was presented by the Minister himself and we went to Committee Stage, went through all the stages, all the clauses we did and even agreed on the amendments. This House did pass the amendments that had come from Hon. Sen. Chief Mtshane.
Those amendments were basically saying, can we also have two chiefs on the Land Commission and also when the Commission sits to decide on disputes on land anywhere in the country – the Bill was saying they would appoint some assessors to deal with disputes over land issues. Our amendment was saying when you do that, please consider that some of those assessors should be chiefs. Those were the amendments. One, two chiefs to be considered for membership of the Commission and also when you handle disputes make sure that some of those assessors are chiefs. Those were the amendments and they were agreed and passed by the House.
In terms of procedure, because we made an amendment to the Bill, the Bill goes back to the Parliamentary Legal Committee to look at those two amendments. As a result, it took long because there were different opinions. I want to say when the Bill then went to the Parliamentary
Legal Committee, I want to confirm that several meetings took place between the Parliamentary Legal Committee, the chiefs and Attorney
General’s office also confirming whether the amendments were constitutional. The Adverse Report was basically saying it would be unconstitutional for the chiefs to sit on the Land Commission and also that they appoint assessors.
This matter went to various legal minds, outside and within Parliament. I stand here again to say we the traditional leaders, as movers of those amendments after having gone through all that process, we come back and say the Parliamentary Legal Committee in finding that the amendments would be unconstitutional, we found out that is not correct, simple. That is not correct and that is our position. I want to emphasise that the Parliamentary Legal Committee is not a court of law. It just gives an opinion – mafungiro avo, maonero avo like anyone else can see differently. In this case they come back to the House nemavonero avo and in terms of the law we are allowed to say hatibvumirane nemaonero enyu.
This is what I am standing here for to say look, please let us reject this Adverse Report and I am talking not only as a chief but also standing also on solid legal foundation canvassed and shared with various other people within this building and outside. We have no doubt that the amendments actually are consistent with the Constitution. I am therefore asking Hon. Senators when you get to the point of voting, we should actually say ‘No’ and not ‘Yes’. This time when they say those of that opinion will say ‘Aye’ let us say ‘No’ and it means we have basically rejected. Thank you very much.
HON. ZIYAMBI: I would like to thank the Hon. Senators for
allowing us to respond to our report. Firstly, I want to say that like Hon. Sen. Chief Charumbira said, the Parliamentary Legal Committee is a constitutional committee that is tasked with looking into all Bills that pass through Parliament for their constitutionality. The work of the Parliamentary Legal Committee is to scrutinise all Bills that come and we check whether they are constitutional or not. What we do not do is, we do not take our own personal emotions or preferences and then we put them. What we simply do is to look at the Bill, the provisions of the
Constitution and we assess whether it is constitutional.
I would like also to concur with him that our report is an opinion that is correct. The procedure is, once we issue an Adverse Report there is no need to negotiate with us. The report comes to the House, you debate it and you have two verdicts; agree or disagree. There is no need to even solicit for other expert opinions because Parliament has a constitutional committee that looks into legislation whether it is constitutional or not. When that legislation is passed whether it is constitutional or not, there is only one court that can deal with that, it is the Constitutional Court. So, whether we pass legislation that is unconstitutional or not, at the end of the day the Constitutional Court will have the final say.
I must say that in the opinion of the PLC, we looked at the provisions that you were requesting to be amended. We did not look at them with a view of what we preferred or what our feelings were but we looked at it as a Committee in terms of what the Constitution says. We went through all the arguments that the Senate had. I have to take you back to the Constitution to Section 282 (2) and it states “Except as provided in an Act of Parliament, traditional leaders have authority, jurisdiction and control over the Communal Land or other areas for which they have been appointed, and over persons within those
Communal Lands or areas”. If you read this in conjunction with the
Traditional Leaders Act, Chapter 3 (1) it states - “Subject to (2) the President shall appoint chiefs to preside over communities inhabiting communal land and resettlement areas”
What we did as a Legal Committee is that we went into the Constitution and the Traditional Leaders Act and we tried to find what a definition of a community is. The definition of a community in the Traditional Leaders Act means people. It does not mean land. If you go to the Traditional Leaders Act, you will find that it will tell you about traditional leaders having jurisdiction over resettlement areas. If you go to Chapter 30 of that particular Act, it says “but it excludes the land”. The dilemma that we then had is that for the purposes of defining the community in a particular area you need to use the land. If you now want to find the jurisdiction of that particular person, it says communities. If you go into our Constitution, it states that traditional leaders are the custodians of our traditions. Now, the other problem that we have is, the land that we are talking about, agricultural land has title and the owner of the title deeds is the Government. If there is a dispute between a landlord and somebody who is leasing that particular land, where do you go? You go to the courts. In this particular case, the Government is saying we are setting up a Land Commission to look into disputes on our land that we have leased. This is the position of the law; it is not what I want it to be.
I believe that there are several contestations. The way the Constitution is couched does not give traditional leaders the due respect that they deserve, but this is the law. So, if you look at it from the perspective of property rights, there is some unconstitutionality in the way that this amendment wants to be couched. Firstly, in so far as traditional leaders are given authority over communities, not land and secondly, they have authority over communal land but in conjunction with Rural District Councils (RDCs), which is another anomaly which in our view needs to be clarified. However, our job was to look at the law as it is and not what it should be like.
In our view, we felt that in so far as the Constitution and the Traditional Leaders Act are as they are now, it would be unconstitutional to have this amendment inserted in the Land Commission Bill. However, I have to say that our report is an opinion. The House is free to debate, accept or reject it. Thereafter, the law can go over but these were the dilemmas that we had. When we looked at the Traditional Leaders Act and the Constitution, we saw some inconsistencies in having this in that the role of traditional leaders in so far as administering land was concerned, particularly agricultural land is not provided for. I thank you.
HON. SEN. CHIEF CHISUNGA: Thank you very much. I want
to add my voice on this controversial debate. The Constitution says, any law or statute which is inconsistent with the Constitution is null and void. The Traditional Leaders Act has not been aligned, so in my view, it is inconsistent with the Constitution. If we go to Section 282 (2), it does not mention communities and I will read, “Except as provided in an Act of Parliament, traditional leaders have authority, jurisdiction and control over communal land or other areas for which they have been appointed and over persons within those communal lands or areas.” -
[HON. SENATORS: Hear, hear.] –
Let me emphasise that as traditional leaders or proponents of these amendments, we did not seek powers or jurisdiction over agricultural land. We were only seeking representation – [HON. SENATORS: Hear, hear.] – I do not see where our amendments usurp the
Constitution. As such, I agree with the President of the National Chiefs Council that we, in totality reject the report of our learned members of the PLC. I thank you.
HON. SEN. MASHAVAKURE: Thank you Mr. President. I
think really the presentation from the Vice Chairperson of the PLC did not touch the core of the issue, because the core of the issue is the composition of the Zimbabwe Land Commission, which is in Section
296 of the Constitution. In Subsection 2 it says, “any person of integrity and competence, knowledge and understanding of land management and administration can be a member of the Zimbabwe Land Commission.
Whether that person of integrity, competence, knowledge and understanding is a chief, prophet, angel, traditional healer – [HON.
SENATORS: Hear, hear.] – he can be a member of the Zimbabwe Land Commission. All these other issues that we are trying to conjure up the Traditional Leaders Act, Section 72 are irrelevant. The important thing is on Section 296 of the Constitution, which says any person of integrity, competence, knowledge and understanding of land management in land administration.
Like the Hon. Chief said, according to the President of the Chiefs Council, they are not requesting jurisdiction or authority. They are only requesting to be represented in the Commission and to be part of the assessors in any land dispute; not to preside over the assessors but to be included. In other words, local chiefs should be included as assessors in whatever dispute that comes up. I think the PLC made a mistake and ended up confusing themselves by inviting all these pieces of legislations and sections of the Constitution. They ignored the important section, Section 296 which talks about integrity, competence, understanding and knowledge. Any person with that on land can be a member of the Zimbabwe Land Commission. Thank you Mr. President.
HON. SEN. CHIEF NGUNGUBANE: Thank you Hon. Chair. I
would want to support my colleagues. In doing so, I think the bone of contention here is not about the authority of chiefs in resettlement areas. It is the chiefs sitting in the Commission. So, I think we need to separate the two issues, because the amendment says, in appointing the
Commission, the President has to consider representation of the chiefs.
That is what is important and that is what we should be debating. The PLC did not in any way address this issue. I feel as Senate, we should address the issue.
However, to respond to what Hon. Ziyambi has said, I think we need consistency Hon. Senators. In saying so, if you look at the Government Gazette that has been published, I think of the one published on 5th April, 2017, placement of agricultural resettlement under the authority of chiefs in Zvishavane and that was done. It is something that went through the PLC and for them to come to the Senate today and say chiefs do not have jurisdiction, I think it is misplaced.
I will not debate much. What we want as chiefs is involvement, because we are the custodians of land. We feel on issues to do with land, there should be involvement of chiefs. When we talk of land, we are not talking of the land only. There are rituals that need to take place. So if you say they do not have jurisdiction, let us not separate the land from rituals and other things that are in tandem with land. Also, the issue that was raised by the Hon. Deputy Chairperson of the PLC, you cannot separate land from its people; you cannot live in a vacuum to say you have no authority, you live there. Section 282 (2) of the
Constitution has given the chiefs a right over communal land and other areas but it says an Act of Parliament can take away that right. We should make it clear. As of now, there is no act that has taken away that responsibility from the chiefs. It is important that we observe that and for the sake of maintaining our culture and tradition, I feel the involvement of chiefs in the Land Commission is very important. Thank you.
HON. SEN. MAKORE: I want to agree with the few words spelt out by the Deputy Chair Hon. Ziyambi, where he mentioned in terms of definition - people. If you talk of people in terms of that jurisdiction, it is most fitting as a technical definition of people who are represented by chiefs. Chiefs are already responsible for all land which could be communal, resettlement or commercial. They are true representatives of that land and it is therefore most fitting that the feeling of this House that Chiefs should be wholly represented in that commission, Hon. Ziyambi Ziyambi is correct. We do feel from Clause 296 which was quoted for us here that it could even be the pastor or teacher but the very honourable area that we do respect is that of those people who are already representing people in various communities. So, we can debate further but the feeling of this august House is that there must be representation by the chiefs in the Land Commission. Hon, Chair, we can continue debating but the feeling is that already chiefs are representing people and resolving disputes within their communities. With their varied experience, we do feel that these neutral people must also play a role in the said representation that we are calling for within the Land Commission. I thank you very much.
HON. SEN. MARAVA: I also rise to add my voice to this issue. This House agrees and understands that chiefs are part of the identity of the citizens of this country. Without a chief you do not have an identity. Never mind where you are settled. There is no place you can find independence of agricultural land from rural land. Agricultural land and rural land are one and the same thing. I think it is just disrespectful of our traditional leaders to even spend 10 minutes talking about such issues. We cannot be defeated by the Rudd Concession that recognised the traditional leaders. Here we are, talking about that issue, where are we losing it? Mr. Chair, chiefs do not need us but we need them, because they are our identity.
Section 72, we do not need to talk about it but it is obvious and it does not give any scale. All the powers of leadership originated from the chiefs. Even if we try to look at it from another angle of the liberation struggle, when Chief Svosve led his forces to the commercial areas to repossess the land, they were not talking about a group of people who were supposed to be led by the Chief but they actually invaded farmland in commercial areas. So what are we now saying, are we trying to indirectly disarm the chiefs? Mr. Chair, we must stop this nonsense. Thank you.
HON. SEN. MAKONE: Mr. Chair, I think we want to go back
into history and see what we are talking about. My understanding of the liberation struggle is that we were going to fight for our land and not for our rural areas. The people of this country did not shed their blood for the rural areas. Let us get it very straight here. The land was divided into communal and agricultural by the whites. They took over the whole of Zimbabwe from the chiefs. So, if we now want to talk about title deeds and say that title deeds are with Government, no - they are not even with Government if we want to be very honest.
The title deeds are still in the possession of the people that we took the land from between 2000 and today. We, as the people of Zimbabwe actually wrote off those title deeds and said we shall say all the land belongs to the Government of Zimbabwe. Strictly speaking, the Government did not go and buy any land from anybody but we simply dispossessed them of our land which they had taken. So, the land does not belong to Government but to the people of Zimbabwe. Government is the simply the custodian of the land, but it is not theirs. The land belongs to the people from which it was taken by the colonialists. It was not taken from Government but from the chiefs.
So, we can talk about law but some of us are not even legal minded but ordinary people. The arguments that you made as PLC do not make sense. We are simply saying when talking about the land of Zimbabwe, the chiefs are part and parcel of that land. You cannot have a committee that goes to preside in a chief’s area without that chief’s involvement and say that you have settled matters. You have not settled anything in our traditional custom. You will have settled nothing if the chief is not involved.
In any case, the Constitution talks about an Act of Parliament that might come but it has not come yet. If this is a way of by-passing the chiefs so that we can say an Act of Parliament did come and you allowed the chiefs to be outside, well this one is not going anywhere. If it is steam rolled over us, we will fight with every Government starting with this one until that land is given back to the chiefs. The boundaries that were there are well known and everyone knows the demarcation of every chief’s land. That is what we want.
If you are going to talk about land in Chief Tangwena’s area, Chief Tangwena must be there. If you are going to talk about land in Mazowe, Chief Chiweshe must be there. There is no way we can have the chiefs excluded. There is nothing called agricultural, but there is land. Agricultural land was demarcated by the whites as their boundaries and that has got nothing to do with us. So, this coming Act of Parliament must make sure that we align the law and the Act that is going to pass through here. I thank you Hon. Chair.
*HON. SEN. MAVHUNGA: Thank Mr Chair for according me
the opportunity to also debate the issue of involvement in the Land Commission as requested by the chiefs. We might peruse through many books but the only thing that the chiefs want is to have representation in the Land Commission. All the other issues to do with who will have power, the power has been given to the Commission so that they solve the disputes that are found in the land. This means that if the chiefs are involved, they are referred to as Commissioners as well. So we can go to town about it but as this House, we have agreed that that amendment should be effected into the Bill.
That is why you heard the chief in his opening remarks saying that
‘as this House, we are through with this because chiefs will be represented. This will give honour to the Commission in solving disputes. If they see chiefs being consulted, people will have confidence. In short, I just want to say, yes, the Parliamentary Legal Committee (PLC) has said out their view, but we are not fighting here. However, from their opinion, we can go back and say that that is the opinion of this House as well. With these few words, I want to say thank you.
HON. SEN. CHIMHINI: Thank you Mr. Chairman. I just want to read Section 281 (2) of the Constitution. I am reading this Section to indicate the justification for the traditional leaders. It reads;
“Traditional leaders must not be members of any political party or in any way participate in partisan politics. In my view, their presence in that Commission will help.” Secondly, they must not “…act in a partisan manner.” If they are there, they become our eyes. Thirdly, they must not “…further the interests of any political party or cause or violate the fundamental rights and freedom of any person.”
Mr. Chairman, what we are saying here is that there is a justification. Unless we abuse the chiefs, if we do not abuse them, those chiefs are there to be ears and eyes and they are only asking for a representation and I do not see why in our view, we should say we have closed doors. The debate in this House is simply to indicate that let us respect what the chiefs have asked for, which we are supporting. If we are making laws, let us make laws that can stand the test of time. I want to believe the chiefs have a role to play and we argue that they have to be included, particularly that we are only asking for two. I thank you Mr. Chairman.
HON. SEN. B. SIBANDA: Thank you very much Mr. Chairman. When I entered this Chamber, the debate was already on and I find it interesting. I only have one point to develop. The request being presented as an amendment by the chiefs reads; “The President must consider representation of chiefs.” I find this a very humble and honorous amendment. It reads; “Mr. President, please consider including…” What more could the chiefs ask us? I am reminded of
Masipula Sithole saying, “Let us not get angry on behalf of the
President. Let us not over-defend the President.”
The President has certain capacities. Those capacities include, rejecting a law that he perceives to be unjustified. I believe the President is extremely capable of making that judicious determination. Let us give that opportunity to the President. If he is unhappy about it, we will come back and reconsider the position that the President has taken. My plea is that, the PLC should not endeavor to over-defend an opportunity that is given to the President. We make him the President because we think he is presidential. I thank you Mr. Chairman.
HON. SEN. MUMVURI: Thank you Mr. Chairman. I also want
to add a few words on this debate. I think the point has been made. However, I do not know why the PLC wrote the whole page here on jurisdiction which was not requested for. This is because from here, their objections are on jurisdiction. The chiefs are asking for inclusion –
[HON. SENATORS: Hear, hear.] –
My only question, now that the Hon. Minister is here is; in terms of the Constitution and where the President has already appointed a Commission, is it possible to reverse or this is for the future that the chiefs will be accommodated? This is because this is now administrative; it has nothing to do with what we are debating here.
However, as I said, I think this debate has already settled that the chiefs only want representation, it is simple. How it is going to be done remains with the Minister of Lands and Rural Resettlement.
+HON. SEN. CHIEF MUSARURWA: Thank you Mr.
Chairman. In our culture, it is said that murume mukuru haasiye bhachi padare. This issue had since been resolved. The Minister agreed, he came into this House and said that he had looked at the plight of the chiefs and it is very important for chiefs to be included in the commission. The PLC had their own opinion.
Hon. Chairman, the opinion of the PLC is theirs but as this House, we are clearly saying that we cannot divide the country to say a community consists of people only separating it from the land and further saying that land stands on its own. Land and the community is the same because there is no way we can have a community without land. It is very clear and we should not continue debating this issue. We were hoping that this Bill should just sail through with its amendments because the Minister agreed to it. If there are people with their own views, this House is very clear on what they want. The issue of the Traditional Leaders Act and the Constitution - your Committee is lagging behind. We are blaming you because the Bills that are supposed to be aligned to the Constitution are in your hands because you are the ones who are supposed to deal with legal issues. You are slowing this Bill from being passed so that it is in line with the Constitution.
So, Mr. Chairman, I am pleading with our learned lawyer, Hon. Ziyambi, that when it comes to the issues of chiefs, if we go back in history, we can spent the whole day because land was grabbed from the chiefs and it is very clear that the chiefs spearheaded the Second
Chimurenga. Now we have chiefs’ heads which are in Britain. If people like Chinengundu could hear us debating on the land issue which led to their deaths in the communal lands, it is better to leave their remains in Britain. We should leave them there because if you are saying that the land which was taken from the whites, that is the land which we fought for so that chiefs should be there, that is what moved people to go for war. If you are saying the chiefs’ jurisdiction is now in the rural areas and you are saying that we are using the Roman Dutch law, it means we are throwing the Constitution away.
The Minister agreed and we were thinking that today we were going to pass the Bill. We thought you were going to say you heard what we said but now, we are singing from the same hymn book. To say that Hon. Ziyambi who comes from Chief Nemakonde that you will go back and tell your chief that in Parliament, we are saying your jurisdiction only ends in the rural areas. I am not pointing a finger at him, but I just want to say that let us move forward. We want this Bill to be passed today.
We do not want to go back and as a House, we are saying each and everyone who is debating, their debate is clear that we might have an oversight. What we are saying is that chiefs should be included in the Commission, not that the chiefs will become Chairpersons of the Commissions, but we will be there. Even when we go gender, you will find that chiefs are involved and even in tourism, chiefs are involved as well. Now we are saying chiefs are not included on the issue of land. I think when the Minister agreed, he found that it was important for chiefs to be included. Thank you.
HON. SEN. NYAMBUYA: Thank you Mr. Chairman. I have a
problem and I request and I hope after I have said the few words that I want to say, perhaps I will be feeling a little bit better. I have a conscience, and I need to say what I am about to say now. Mr. Chairman, we are talking about a Commission, a Land Commission and land is an issue which is at the core of our souls as Zimbabweans. Most of us went to fight for the liberation of this country. One of the major issues was land. The abuse which we suffered at the hands of the whites and all the things which made us go to war, and what we are doing in this august House is nation building.
We were elected in 2013 and I think at the end of the five years which we are supposed to serve, each and every one of us at the end of five years, we need to sit down and ask ourselves whether we have been useful citizens who have contributed to building a strong nation. A nation with a strong foundation with values, which follows principles, a nation which future generations can look back and say yes, in 2013, we had so many Senators who made very wise decisions.
In this House, I think we should hang our heads in shame that we have already made a big lapse whereby we allowed some legislation to pass which was faulty, and it was turned down by the Head of State, and you know what I am talking about. Lest I be misunderstood, I want to make it very clear from the onset that I am a firm believer of the role which chiefs play in our society –[HON. SENATORS: Hear, hear.] - I said lest I be misunderstood and I am still going ahead. I strongly believe that chiefs have got a very strong and solid place in the formulation and building of our nation.
Today, we are talking about a Land Commission, a Commission which is supposed to superintend the utilisation of land which has been redistributed, which we want to ensure that it is properly utilised. Surely, the chiefs have got a place in the Commission to serve, but in the process of making this very important pivotal law, we have got a PLC which we as Zimbabweans, is us as people who pass this Constitution mandated to look and scrutinise our laws and ensure that they are in tandem with our Constitution. Our own PLC have given us an Adverse Report and they are doing their job.
One of the biggest facets of nation building is institutions. A country which does not respect its institutions is bound to fail. Let me assure you that if you have got strong institutions anywhere in the world, you are bound to make progress. In my view, we should ask ourselves because the last thing that we do not want to do is that we pass this after having debated and congratulate ourselves and everything and then somebody challenges this in the constitutional court, and it is found to be unconstitutional. That is the last thing which we want to do my dear Hon. Senators. They have given us an opinion, their own opinion and most of us today we are saying it does not really matter. Does it not really matter?
In my view, I think and I said lest I be misunderstood, I fully support the chiefs and I think they have a role to play. I think there is a better way to achieve what we want to achieve. There are many ways to kill a cat. You can tie a stone to the cat and throw it into the river and it will die. You can take a knife and simply cut it off and it will die. You can as well strangle it and it will die. Some ways are more humane than others. In the same manner, we want to achieve a very noble objective of ensuring that chiefs play a role in administering the land.
I think perhaps there is merit in looking at amending what has made the PLC to issue an Adverse Report. Why do we not be patient and amend whatever it is so that it is in tandem with the Constitution so that tomorrow no one will say we passed a Bill which had an Adverse Report. Lest I be misunderstood, I fully support the chiefs, but what I am saying is that let us think with our brains, not with our hearts. Let us look at tomorrow and let us not just look at today. I would like to say that there is another way of killing this cat, why do we not look at it. Thank you Mr. Chairman.
HON. SEN. MASUKU: Thank you Mr. Chairman. The way I
understand it is that everybody in this august House is saying the same thing but different expressions. I agree with every Hon. Senator that you cannot separate communities and land – you cannot separate people and land. I agree that when we took up arms to fight for this country, we were fighting for our land. Mr. Chairman, without taking much time; Hon. Sen. Brigadier Gen. (Rtd) Nyambuya in his last word, he said exactly what I was going to say. Nobody is against the inclusion of chiefs in the Commission because there is nobody here in Zimbabwe who can say kala sithupha esibiza induna. Note, in Zimbabwe here – every I.D. ile nduna. But like I said when we first debated this Bill that the Commission is in place, if the Commission is in place, what is it then that can be done to include the chiefs? Are we as this august House saying we are lobbying for the extension or let me say, addition of two more members in the Commission who will happen to be chiefs? Are we saying so or are we saying we are rejecting the Commission that has been appointed by the President? There are two things here.
I believe what we have to come up with in this august House is something that will reflect that as the Senate we know our duty. I believe that our duty as well is to assist whichever Committees – PLC or whatever. Mr. Chairman, are we advocating for the inclusion of two more Members to the Commission so that the chiefs can be included? I do not doubt the capabilities of our chiefs because we have learned chiefs who are capable in those Commissions. I do not doubt but as the Commission is in place, what are we coming up with?
Are we saying to the Head of State, the Senate is requesting that your Commission should be extended by two members who will happen to be chiefs? The rejection as far as I feel is that there will be questions that some of us cannot answer. Even people or even my child would say Mama, instead of rejection, did you fail to come up with a solution? What can be the solution rather than rejecting? Can the solution be the inclusion of two more members or can it be that the Commission that is in place today completes its term, then the second term be assured that chiefs will be included? We have to come up with a solution. I thank you Mr. Chairman.
+HON. SEN. CHIEF GAMPU: Thank you Mr. Chairman. I
thank you for giving me this opportunity to add a few words on this matter before this House which is quite big. My contribution is that this matter which we are debating divides people. As such, this House and others who are outside, when they hear that the chiefs are not included in the Land Commission and even people spelt it out in the Constitution that the land should be in the hands of the chiefs, they will be surprised. People will say we went out of the country to fight for the land because our chiefs in the times of Mzilikazi and Lobengula were dispossessed of their land. As a result of that, people had to go out en masse to fight for their land so that it is given back to the chiefs.
I am of the view that the number of the traditional leaders should be increased to more than two or even five because it is a big duty for chiefs to handle land matters. As chiefs, our jurisdiction is on the land. It is my request that this problem that we are trying to create here to divide our people should come to an end. As chiefs, our request is that we be included in this Commission so that we represent the people and we fulfill their requests. We are not requesting for something out of the ordinary which is not in the Bible. Remember that Moses gave jurisdiction to chiefs to be in charge of the land.
We are requesting for something which is within our rights. Our children when they hear that we are not involved in the Land Commission, will despise us. They will even say, how did you fail to amend this in Parliament when you had the power? We have to attend to this by understanding and respecting one other. Our request is within our rights as traditional leaders. I thank you.
HON. SEN. MASHAVAKURE: On a point of order Mr. Chairman. I think that somewhere along the lines, we are drifting away from the debate because I hear that there is an introduction on issues to do with how the chiefs can be appointed. I think that the issue was – representation by the chiefs and then the jurisdiction by the PLC, that is our issue. So, whether the appointing authority takes it on board and decides to appoint today or after five years, that is not our business. I think our business is to sort out the mess of the representation and the jurisdiction, which is the matter of argument between us and the Parliamentary Legal Committee. I thank you.
*HON. SEN. CHIEF CHIDUKU: Thank you Mr. President for
giving me this opportunity to make my contribution. I am not going to be repetitive but I will state two new facts. The problem we are facing is that some people think that chiefs cannot think on their own and they have to be guided. As chiefs, we are very clear on what we want. We are very focused. We stated long back that we are not worried about the fact that you did not give us the power to play an oversight role in communal areas. What we are simply doing is that we are saying we have no jurisdiction over the communal areas because we have some people who are now playing the oversight role in those areas.
What is really happening is that all the people who have been allocated land and resettled in those communal areas belong to a chief. What I advise is that if they no longer need to be under our jurisdiction, they should cancel out the term on their identity card that they belong to that particular chief where they originated from and then they can live like the whites who do not have any chiefdom. That is not what we want. All we are saying is, when you are looking for members who can be included in the Land Commission, please include the chiefs so that they can play a pivotal role in the administration of the land.
If you want to conclude this case effectively and positively because you said you had overlooked the amendments we had proposed – we know that the Land Commission has been appointed and sworn in. You seem to think that the chiefs want some members in the Commission to be removed from that body to create space for the chiefs but that is not the fact. Now that you have already appointed members into the Commission and it is functioning, let this Commission run its tenure and when you are appointing the members for the next term, please appoint chiefs in that Commission. Better still, during this current Commission, should any of the members misbehave or found to be unsuitable because of one reason or the other, please remove that person and replace them with a chief. If I were to ask, what is really happening in the Land
Commission that you want to be kept a secret from the chiefs? We are now very suspicious. We now smell a rat and we feel there is something going on. What we know is that land belongs to the chiefs and when the chief is being installed he is told about the land which he has jurisdiction over. That is why we get our powers from the land.
We may talk in any language which you may want to say and
include all the legal aspects of this case but all we are saying in simple and clear terms, the Land Commission should include chiefs because they are part and parcel of the land in Zimbabwe. If you do not want the chiefs, please call the Europeans and put them in that Commission.
HON. SEN. CHIPANGA: There is now too much politics
creeping into this debate. We are now being driven back to why we went to war when in actual fact the issue here is, do we or do we not want the inclusion of chiefs on the Land Commission, that is the issue. One Senator summed it up well when he said there is need to align the Traditional Leaders Act to the Constitution. The Constitution we are talking about today is the Constitution not written by whites but by ourselves. It is this Constitution which says there is one particular land which is called communal under the jurisdiction of the chiefs and then another set of land which is not under the chief. That is what is in the Constitution.
When our Parliamentary Legal Committee goes to look at it, they are right by saying there is inconsistency here. Things do not tally. The Constitution says the chief moves from here up to there - until and unless we amend our Constitution then it will be easier for our PLC. The point that I am trying to make is that, let us not blame the PLC for having in my view correctly interpreted the Constitution as it stands. Theirs is to read and then say - what does it mean? There is no politics here. I would like to suggest that as of now we agree that the
Constitution and the Traditional Leaders Act as they stand do not tally and there is need to harmonise these two so that we know when we say land we are talking about the people. When we are talking about the people we are talking about the land. Under the current Constitution, these two issues are separate and distinct. This in my view is what led the PLC to say this Act as it stands will be declared unconstitutional.
One Senator said the last thing that we want is to pass a law just for the sake of it, then someone will go to the Constitutional Court and then the law is quashed. The President as we all know has a very keen eye, he will send it back and say hazvisizvo. That is the last thing that we want particularly when we have been advised.
I just want to add a word of caution that as Senators, we need to think with our minds. In other jurisdictions, Senate is the last House where other things which have been passed haphazardly in the Lower House are scrutinised strictly in the Upper House. It looks like we are doing what the whites were doing. It is not the Whiteman’s problem but ours. We should have incorporated that in the new Constitution at the very beginning to say where there is communal land, there should be a chief. It is not there in the Constitution. Why did we not include it? I thank you.
HON. ZIYAMBI: Thank you very much. I would like to thank
all the contributors for contributing to our report and giving us your views. Firstly Mr. President, I want to state that the Parliamentary Legal Committee is a constitutional committee established in terms of Section 152 of the Constitution. As such, when we are doing our work, like I
said in the beginning, we look at the Constitution and our laws to see if they are in harmony.
There was an Hon. Member who described our work as nonsensical. I believe I said it from the beginning that I am not demeaning the office or the function of the chiefs. The PLC did not produce the Constitution or the Acts of Parliament. The PLC was put in place to make sure that the laws, before they are passed to avoid congesting the Constitutional Court, are constitutional. I believe Mr. President, to label us as producing a nonsensical report is unparliamentary and unbecoming. I think we are owed an apology as the Parliamentary Legal Committee Mr. President.
Secondly, I would like to take you through the Constitution. The reason we are debating the Land Commission Bill is in terms of the Constitution whose crafting the majority of us participated in. We came up with this Constitution and we went with it to the people to say this is what we want. I may have had my preferences regarding traditional leaders but because this Constitution is there, I abide by it.
If you go to Section 296 that you have been referring to, it talks about establishment and composition of the Zimbabwe Land Commission. That is a done deal. The provisions that deal with the establishment and composition of the Land Commission are there in the
Constitution. Section 297 goes on to talk about the functions of the
Zimbabwe Land Commission; that is a done deal according to the Constitution. However, Section 297(6) goes on to state why we are here. It says the Government must make adequate and suitable provision through legislation and other appropriate means to ensure that the Zimbabwe Land Commission is able to exercise its functions efficiently and independently.
The Constitution is not saying when we debate the Zimbabwe Land Commission Bill, we should look into appointment procedures of commissioners. The provision of this Constitution is saying the Government should put in place mechanisms to ensure that the Commission is independent, is an executive committee but it has to be independent, supervised by the Minister but he has to give it some form of independence. This is what it is saying. This is what the Minister is trying to establish and other provisions like persons employed by the Zimbabwe Land Commission and how they carry out their duties fairly and impartially. This is what the Minister is saying. The Bill that he is bringing before the House, the provision of the Constitution is not talking about including other or amending the appointment procedures. No. It is not there. It is not even talking about where there is a dispute, you should include other people. It is only giving the procedures of having this. This is what the Constitution is saying.
There was reference to Section 282 which says, subject to - chiefs may have jurisdiction over other areas that they have been given. I agree with that and I love it, to have legislation that will give chiefs jurisdiction over land but that legislation is not there. PLC does not move Bills. PLC simply receives Bills for scrutiny once they are tabled in the House.
*Hon. Sen. Chief Musarurwa, we cannot give guidance to the Land Commission to change whatever they were working on but we follow what is in the Constitution. Our job is simply to look at legislation, the Constitution, the applicable law and we decide. That is the reason why I
said as lawyers we go and argue before judges and magistrates. When we are arguing, we have different opinions and nobody calls another person’s opinion nonsensical. We debate and then the judge gives his opinion. This is what I said that as Hon. Senators, you can even pass this Bill with our opinion but you do not call it nonsensical. Our opinion is not premised on our feelings but the provisions of the Constitution.
The Hon. Member was talking about appointment of commissioners as persons of integrity. Exactly, that is what the Constitution says. If you look at it, we debated about it and we said our jurisdiction is to look at the law and the Constitution. There are other mechanisms to comply with the Constitution which would ensure that the Chiefs are included in the Land Commission but that was not our brief. We were not given a task to look into that. Our duty is not even to recommend what the legislation should look like. Our duty is to say this is correct and this is not correct. The way forward, we leave it to the stakeholders. We simply say, the law does not say this. The duty to ensure that the law says that is with the legislature.
I want to go to the issue of custodians of land. Your views are more or less like our view. The Constitution, the Traditional Leaders Act, the Communal Lands Act and the Rural District Councils Act do not speak to each other. If you look at the Communal Lands Act, it says the land is vested in the President. As chiefs, you do not allocate land without consulting the Rural District Councils according to the law and we are saying there is need for harmonisation of these laws so that they can speak to each other. This will enable chiefs to be given the status and the due respect that is accorded to them but that is not the function of the PLC. It is the function of the legislature. No land in Zimbabwe can be given, even in communal areas without the authority of the Rural
District Council. That is the law.
If you go to the Traditional Leaders Act, we did not make that Act as PLC. It is the one which is defining what a community is. I heard the Hon. Chief saying there are areas in resettlement areas that are being gazetted and chiefs are being given jurisdiction. He was correct. The chiefs are given jurisdiction according to the Traditional Leaders Act and I will read, inhabitants of resettlement land, placing of communities on resettlement land under the authority of a chief. This is Section 29 and it further says after consultation with the Rural District Council and the chief of the area concerned, the Minister may, by notice in the Gazette declare that an area of resettlement land shall fall under the authority of such chief as he may specify in the notice. Then you go to Section 30, which says - notwithstanding the section that I have read,
“resettlement land that is the subject of a declaration under that section shall not form part of communal land.” Then you go to the Constitution and all these laws, are not saying the chiefs have jurisdiction over the land. I agree with you that you cannot separate land from the people but these are laws that we made and the Constitution that we passed. They were not passed by the PLC. The PLC’s job is simply to look at the law and interpret what the law has said. So, I believe that we are on the same page and we are just your servants. We are not there to fight with you, but just to highlight things that might need improvement so that our laws become clearer, easier and very good for the good governance of all our people.
I also agree that we went to war to fight for the land. Nobody is disputing that. We went and fought for the land, but when we came back we did not then say let us form feudal governments by asking Chief Svosve to have his own government and Chief Charumbira to have his own government. We then decided to continue with the same system of governance which I may not agree with.
HON. SEN. CHIEF CHARUMBIRA: On a point of order Mr.
Chair, I believe when you refer to feudal government, I think you are over doing it. I do not think the use of that word in this era wherever a chief is presiding means feudal. I think it is a very unfortunate word.
Thank you.
HON. ZIYAMBI: Thank you. I withdraw that word but the import of what I was saying was not insinuating that I am denigrating the office of the chief. I think the most important thing is to look at the import of what I am saying and not look at it from the point of view that the PLC is trying to denigrate the office of the chief. If we look at it from that point of view, then we will move together and find a solution in a better way. My request - let me repeat this, I love the chiefs so much and even when the laws are like this, we consult chiefs wherever we stay. Even when the law says this, we have informal arrangements to respect chiefs because that is where we came from. I like what Hon. Sen. Chief Chiduku said - that every person who is here has an identity document which speaks to another chief. That is what we are saying and encouraging each other to ensure that our laws are aligned so that our job becomes easy. As PLC, we do not want to do things that will in the future be blamed on us because we will have been given the mandate to ensure that everything we do is in alignment with the laws. We do not want to be blamed for having done the wrong thing. If we had been given the mandate to give an opinion to point out how things should be done we would do so. So, I apologise if I appeared as if I am denigrating the office of the chiefs. I like them very much and I support the position of the chiefs however, I am merely stating the unfortunate position of the law.
Finally, I would like to thank all Hon. Senators. I am not saying do not vote for the passing of the amendment, do not get me wrong. All I am simply doing is expressing on behalf of the PLC the things that we saw and believed that if they are not addressed might impinge on the work that the Minister has to do. More so, if you go and look at Section 296, Section 297 and why the Bill is here, we believe that we cannot then use an Act of Parliament to amend the appointment procedures when we are dealing with a Bill that is looking into giving operational procedures to the Commission. So, that is our submission but we are very happy that we have had this debate. It allows all of us to think with an open mind, to look into the functions of our traditional leaders, to start interrogating ourselves on whether we have done enough in this
Constitution and whether we should have done things differently. This debate will also help to open up our eyes so that we start debating, which will lead to passing of laws that will direct us to good governance and proper order of our communities. I thank you.
HON. SEN. MARAVA: On a point of order Mr. Chairman. I just want to clarify one issue where I referred to the word nonsense; I was actually referring to the Bill which I believe is a bit of nonsense in the sense that it was taking away powers from the chiefs. I was not denigrating the PLC.
THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: You are only stressing
what you said earlier on.
HON. SEN. CHIEF CHARUMBIRA: Mr. Chairman, can I
make the last contribution. I am very happy with you Senators and I want to be very honest. I was once in the Lower House and I noticed that in this House, there is usually reluctance to genuinely go into depth about the business that we do but today we really went into depth with everything. That is very, very good. Do not even worry about the other comments that were passed. One clear thing Mr. Chairman is that the adverse report says we do not want chiefs on the Commission because they have no jurisdiction in areas outside communal lands. We were speaking of things outside the report but what we want is to address what is in the report. That report, we are rejecting because the only reason that they are giving for chiefs not to be represented is that chiefs have nothing to do with areas outside communal lands. That is the real issue that we have to debate.
Going forward, I need to make these points very clear. There is an issue where they said the commissioners have already been appointed but fortunately that was addressed by Hon. Sen. Chief Chiduku. That concern addresses a futuristic issue. If we amend it, it will not have a retrospective effect but the gap will be seen maybe after five to ten years when you now want to appoint and the law will be saying consider the chiefs. When you last appointed the law was not there and the Minister sitting here can confirm that we had such a meeting with the Attorney General Representative, Mr. Dias. We discussed these issues together with the Minister and we found a solution. As the Minister sits here, we have no quarrels with him and I am being very honest. Let me rest this one.
The other issue is that the PLC is our institution because we put it there so that they can scrutinise whether the Bills are ultra-vires the Constitution is true, but we are the ones who said they do not give us a final position. We said when they come here they only bring an opinion and the law says we can reject their report. Although we set them up we still said we can reject their report. The law again says that. That is why here, in the Senate, it looks like something new and probably threatening. The lower House rejected the adverse report on the Labour Amendment Bill by the PLC. Their report was rejected by the National
Assembly on the Labour Amendment Bill. The National Assembly said
‘we do not agree with the PLC.’ The Act which we have today, the Labour Amendment Act is a result of a rejection of a PLC report. The law is there after we registered our rejection. Do not think that when we reject, we are being rebels, no, when we reject, we are doing our work.
That is our duty of scrutinising what they bring here. We have a right to reject. Do not think that rejection is a bad thing, it is good and it actually shows the relevancy of the Senate. Senate just agrees to everything and you wonder why we are here. We also have to show that there are things which we can detect which would not have been detected by the National Assembly, which is good. People should not ask us how far we have gone.
Let me comment on the issue of Section 282. There is a law that allows chiefs to be appointed as chiefs in resettlement areas. Section 29 of the Traditional Leaders Act, provides for that. That is why we are having installations of chiefs which we also witness on national television in the A2 resettlement areas. We have 11 chiefs in this country who were appointed in resettlement areas. For the purposes of emphasising, it is gazetted, before appointing a chief in a resettlement area, it is gazetted. That gazetting goes to the PLC. So far, the PLC has agreed or approved 11 appointments of chiefs in resettlement areas. So, for the PLC to come back here and say chiefs have no jurisdiction in A2 resettlement areas, when that same PLC is saying to the gazette this is the correct…
HON. ZIYAMBI: Point of order Mr. Chairman. I think the Hon. Chief was not listening to me when I responded to say, the chief said that there is gazetting which was done. I agreed and said, if you go to the Section he is referring to, there is a section that says the Minister is empowered to appoint chiefs in resettlement areas and I quoted it to those who were listening. I quoted and said, this is allowed by the Act and I read out Section 39 and I even showed you the Traditional
Leaders’ Act. I have it here.
However, for my Hon. Chief to say that we are not acknowledging that, I do not think it is fair on the PLC. All that we have said is, if you look, the chiefs are being appointed in terms of the Traditional Leaders’ Act and it says that, they will be appointed – in fact if you go to Section
29, it says; the heading is; ‘Inhabitants of resettled land.’ I said this and I also said placing of communities on resettlement land under authority of a chief. I said it Hon. Chief. If you read it, it talks about placement of chiefs in those areas by a gazette which the Hon. Member talked about and I agreed.
However, I said, if you go to Section 30, it says the land and if you go to this Traditional Leaders’ Act, it talks about communities and it defines what a community is. PLC, I repeat, is not the author of the
Traditional Leaders’ Act. When we pass those gazettes that come to PLC, they are very clear. They state about placement of communities in resettlement areas and there is no contradiction with the Constitution or with the Act. So, for the Chief to say that we are contradicting ourselves, with all due respect, I think it is not the correct position. I thank you.
HON. SEN. CHIEF CHARUMBIRA: I will wind out. It is
healthy that we debate. However, let us just agree that Senators should have the confidence that in coming up with this amendment; we went very far and wide. We also consulted a lot of lawyers in Zimbabwe, I will not mention names. So…
HON. ZIYAMBI: Objection Chief. I believe as a constitutional body, we are mandated to do this. When we give our report - I feel that as a member of PLC, for the Hon. Chief to then come and say they consulted a lot of people, he will be demeaning the work of a constitutional body. Our work is premised on us and he should debate and not give an opinion of somebody who is outside. You would have preferred a situation at that particular moment…
HON. SEN. MLOTSHWA: On a point of order.
THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: We cannot have a point
of order on a point of order. Please, that is not practical; let him finish his point of order.
HON. SEN. MLOTSHWA: He is debating and not giving a point
of order.
THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: No, he was debating and
then he rose on a point of order.
HON. ZIYAMBI: My point of order is, surely, my Hon. Chief can put his point to say, this is what we want without giving reference to unknown legal persons. We are the constitutional committee of Parliament, mandated to looking into issues of constitutionality of legislation. However, if we have names of legal minds or gurus outside the constitutional committee that is mandated – that is my point. Thank you.
HON. SEN. CHIEF CHARUMBIRA: Thank you very much for
all this debate, it is healthy. At the end of the day, we do not agree with the PLC’s position, so we move that the Adverse Report be rejected.
Thank you.
House resumed.
HON. ZIYAMBI: Thank you Mr. President. Mr. President, I now with leave, move that this House, having given consideration to the Report of the PLC on the Land Commission Bill (H.B, 2A, 2016), resolves that the Bill would, if enacted be in contravention of the Declaration of Rights and some of the provisions of the Constitution. I thank you Mr. President.
Motion put and Report of the PLC negatived.
Consideration Stage: With leave, forthwith.
CONSIDERATION STAGE
LAND COMMISSION BILL [H.B. 2A, 2016]
Amendments to Clauses 2, 3 and 36 put and agreed to.
Bill, as amended, adopted.
Third Reading: With leave, forthwith.
THIRD READING
LAND COMMISSION BILL [H.B. 2A, 2016]
THE MINSITER OF LANDS AND RURAL
RESETTLEMENT ( HON. DR. MOMBESHORA: I move that the
Bill be now read the third time.
Motion put and agreed to.
Bill read the third time.
On the motion of THE MINISTER OF LANDS AND RURAL RESETTLEMENT ( HON. DR. MOMBESHORA), the Senate
adjourned at Twenty Six Minutes past Four o’clock p.m.